 Okay, we're recording you can go ahead. Hello everyone, it is Thursday, June 1. Welcome to the town services and outreach committee meeting this meeting is being recorded. The meeting will be conducted via remote means members of the public who wish to access the meeting may do so, because zoom or by telephone, no in person attendance, but members of the public will be permitted but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the meetings in real time via technological means. I'm going to go ahead and call us to order and make sure everyone can hear and be heard. So, oh no. Present also I think Paul is stuck in the audience, but present. I'm here. I'm here. Kelly good new heroes. I can you sound great. I'm hearing you. Sorry about that only. I see his name there is okay. Welcome Paul can you hear us. I can. Okay, we can hear you. All right, so we'll move right in I'm not sure that we have. Oh, it looks like we might have someone do we have anyone with us who would like to make a public comment. If you do please raise your hand and we will bring you in where you are welcome to have the floor for up to three minutes. Welcome Darcy do mark. The floor is yours. Can you hear us Darcy. We see you with your. It looks like you're muted. Yes, you're muted Darcy. Sorry about that. Let's see. The floor is yours. Okay. Hi, good evening to all of you. My name is Darcy do not and I live in district three. I'm a member of zero waste Amherst, the official community sponsor of the waste hauler bylaw amendment proposal to change to a contract with the hauler, which would include the provision of curbside compost pickup. So I urge you to take action on the bylaw amendment proposal sooner than later so that the council can act to vote on adoption by early summer. The matter was referred to this committee 10 months ago in August of last year, and the DEP technical assistance grant was awarded six months ago. The Board of Health urged the council to act a year and a half ago, and reminded you both in June of 2022 and last month to try to get it done. This proposal is really so easy to support. It's a win win for air quality for the climate and for residents pocketbooks. So many of the trash recycling and compost survey were clear respondents using a USA waste and recycling using USA waste and recycling are paying exorbitant amounts and getting no pay as you throw quote unquote waste reduction. We could reduce our waste by much more than 40% by the combination of using a pay as you throw system and the compost diversion. The USA is touting its recycling facility, all the more reason that it will be able to fare well and a contract bidding process. We need a contract to ensure waste reduction to reduce prices and to provide transparency for customers. A huge number of local organization support this proposal. We have lots of evidence that it'll save residents money. And please, please, please, let's get it going. Thank you so much. Thank you Darcy and I'm sure you're aware that the Hall or bylaw has another update this evening. Anyone else in our audience would like to make comment. Okay, so well, what do you know, we are actually moving on to that update. So, down manager Paul Backelman I will hand the floor over to you shall me did you have a question first. Yeah, one other sponsor of this bylaw is in the audience Jennifer top I wonder if you want to invite her in for this update. Jennifer would you like to join us you're more than welcome to join us for this update. I take that as a yes welcome Jennifer. Okay, thank you. Can you hear me. Yes. Thanks. Okay. Thank you. So a quick update the the ball is in the court of the DPW this Susan weight has done her piece of the puzzle. Now our next step is to get the RFI out RFI out we had said we would get that out by the end of June which we will do anticipate. Guilford to be finalizing that I met with some today on it over the next week or two. And then we will put that out. The RFI as you know is what we where we utilize a process to collect information about the interest of vendors who might want to bid on our profile of trash and collections. So, so that's where we are. So, again, that's just an update on where as we're making progress on this. Thank you. Are there any questions or Andy. Yes. There was one thing that I wanted to ask about I'm sorry that Guilford is not joining us tonight. I was hoping that he would at the finance committee meeting when he presented the on the budgets for DPW and the enterprise funds. Without being asked he mentioned, when we were talking about solid waste enterprise fund that he did not anticipate that the transfer station, we continue to function as an alternative means by which people can choose to dispose of trash. And then we move into whatever is arranged for home pickup. And because it was a meeting that was unrelated to the topic. It was not appropriate point to have a significant discussion about it because we were heavily into the entire DPW and enterprise funds budget and the water and sewer rates. I've touched on the plate already, but I was concerned about that because I don't think that that was the intention of the cosponsors at any time is being necessarily something that was envisioned because we know that a lot of residents would choose the transfer station. Now, and if they could pay less at the transfer station, then participating in home pickup that they would want to do so so. I just wanted to at least bring that up to the committee is something that I would like to have a better understanding of what was behind that statement. And I know that I was also present at that meeting and that I, but I don't think that she has anything to add but I don't, I think that was pretty much it. So I just wanted to raise that point. I agree with Andy I think there's a lot of interest in maintaining the transfer station the town and its services along with the schools also has to decide what it's going to do with its trash right now that those that trash goes to the transfer station as it is so if we didn't operate the transfer station. There's different options available that it would be operated just for town trash municipal trash that be open to the public. So I don't think there's any decisions on that. I think those are the types of the RFI that we want to collect information on. If you do, if you get a contract would you require that the transfer station be closed in order to you have a in order for you to have a greater market share that's one of the types of questions we want to hear from vendors on that. So, but I don't think that's a decision for sure because that's that's right really how much. I'm not sure what was behind the statement I'll find out what he's meant by that. Thank you. Thank you Jennifer did you have a question or anything that you wanted to add. Thank you. I just wanted to ask I guess, and I may have, I apologize if you went over to another meeting where I wasn't present but if the RFI is going out in June, what would be the anticipated timeframe going forward. So we typically would give people 30 days to respond to an RFI and then that information anybody who would respond to it would come back we can make that a little bit shorter but the more time you give folks the more likely you are to get responses. And then that information gets collected and analyzed. And then when would we see the RFP going out. Yeah I think there's some decisions about what to put in the RFP that's why you do an RFI to figure out what you're going to put in the RFP yeah. If that's what I mean first off the council has decided if it wants to do this or not. Right. That's that's the first major decision, because we don't want to do an RFP unless there's an appropriation available to support the work. Unless it's strictly an RFP that says you're going to have the access to the town to the town households to collect trash and recycling and composting. And one of the ideas is to get a more comprehensive approach to collections with with composting and recycling and then to have greater, you know, sort of if we can achieve everything that Darcy said that would be a great win for the town. And for your hand is still. Yeah, so I guess I'm just trying to. I assume that the RF, we get information responses in the to the RFI that would give more information to put in the RFP. But now it sounds like so in terms of you know the steps kind of the timeframe, just not timeframe but timeline. After we get the RFI responses, there'll be a report to TSO and then TSO will go back to the council. Yeah, I think that most likely to be the path right the information would be is right now this whole bylaw it was before the counts before the TSO committee is the bylaw. And so this would cut the RFI information will be come back to the to the TSO committee. Right, and then the council so they're, do we anticipate like the council make a decision about whether to go forward with the RFP. It'll just depend on what the TSO committee wants to do with it. Okay, and then the last question will, will the RFI include asked information about pricing or will that be for the RFP. I don't know if she collected information on the pricing but I can ask that question. I mean that's that's a key piece of it right we want to see what the pricing would look like. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Thank you Jennifer. Shawnee. As far as pricing goes Paul like my memories that we talked about it and it's not going to be asked because I don't know, I don't remember the why why we're not going to ask that but that was what was shared with us is that we are not going to not that I'm saying we shouldn't I mean if we can get to ask that but that's what we were told we're not going to get the price. However, what Susan did say is that based on her experience and she has data she could share with us about comparable rates in the area. I mean, there's no town will obviously be same as us but so I think now that her part is done with the RFI. I wonder if she could then start working with TSO to share some of the data she has in addressing some of the questions. We're you know who are going to be the haulers who are interested. What will they provide what services transparency data, all of that will come through the RFI and we can wait for that but some of the other questions that are there right now. I think if Susan can start working with TSO that would be really helpful. Yeah, while we still have her. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, and she's here till end of June, is it. So then the final report would come from DPW and not her. She's she's our regional coordinator for for solid waste for DP so I'm sure she would help us out. Okay, and then if you're expecting the RFI is to come back by July 30 by when can we put down a date, or do you want to consult with DPW and let us know what the date will be for the report. I think Guilford couldn't be here tonight. So maybe that's your next TSO meeting we put that on the agenda for Susan and Guilford to be there. Okay, because I think we want with Anika to plan out our TSO time in terms of when TSO wants to discuss this and then we probably want to share this information with the public. Public forum ahead of time and really let all the counselors and everyone know to reach out and of course zero waste can send the information out that would be collected. And so all of those steps can be planned accordingly then. And yes, thank you Sean and again we do have this item as one of the reasons why it isn't ongoing. Andy. One more thing that I thought about regarding the RFI. And that is, Paul, do you know whether there's anything in there about alternatives between weekly and biweekly trash pickup as being an RFI question as to how it might affect rates. And the reason that I asked that question is that we keep being told about South Hadley being much less expensive after a competitive process, but it turns out that you can't compare it very well because it's a it's not every other week pickup and not a weekly pickup. And that substantially reduces the cost for the hauler, because then we need to have the number of trucks running. And when I've talked with somebody from zero who works with zero waste hammers. And mentioned that to him. He indicated that it's not uncommon to have every other week pick up and then it actually serves other purposes and similar to pays you throw it's a it's a waste reduction technique. So I didn't know if that was part of the RFI recommendation. And if not, be curious to know why not. Yeah, I believe it is but I'll double check on it Andy. Thank you. Thank you Andy. Paul, can I get another allergy for the maker notes first. I know multitasking. I don't know I have the dates from last time about when we were going to send it out and I'm sure there's a lot deep DPW is dealing with so it's probably got pushed but I know that Susan and Guilford were working on and they met. And so if Susan's done her bit. What is like why is it it's first of June. Why are we anticipating. Guilford has a million things on his plate right now. And I, you know, that's why, you know, he just has a lot on his plate and trying to get contracts out and things like that. Okay. Yeah, I know that it's it's slipping. It's not intentional. It's just that, you know, I really understand the priorities with so many emails about speeding and potholes and I totally get that. I just want to be clear that is, is there anything that Susan can do to take, you know, to. Finish the thing and whatever she can do so that he has minimal work at his. Yeah, that's what that's one of the things we talked about today is what can I do to help. What can we, what can town hall do to help to fashion it into an RFI is the content is there. It's just a matter of putting it into the format that we need to use for the RFI and we have a sample RFI now that. It's easier. Susan fill it out and he. Yeah, I'll check with her. I'm not sure what kind of hours she has left. I apologize. I'm getting too much. Thank you. Thank you show me. Okay, were there any other questions or comments for Paul. All right. Well thank you Jennifer for coming in and joining us. Okay, thank you for letting me are the panel you can zap me out to the audience. Thank you. You. Okay. So, thank you again Paul, and we're going to be moving on to just a few appointments and reappointments this evening. Anna and I are going to tag team this so we're thinking, I see you to go over if you would like Paul to go over the appointment first. And then I think our has a monster to follow that with and then we could do the same for reappointments does that make sense. Whatever makes sense for the committee. Okay. Yeah, so I have separate motions for all of the first time appointments. And then I checked with Athena and she said that unless there are objections she doesn't see a problem with making a motion that specifically references the memo and approves all of them as written in the memo. And with the expiration dates as stated in the memo so I want to check in and make sure that there isn't opposition to that if there is I can do. I don't know how many there are probably it's at least 10 I think reappointments and as separate motions I just would like to. I was thinking about efficiency. Yeah, in terms of the reappointments so that's my proposed process and I have those motions already go Kelly I did send them to Athena so that you don't have to type them all every time. That is great. helpful. All right. Okay, so I'll go through the appointments by by committee so the first one is the Human Rights Commission. And just to I want to give you back up this is a gargantuan work amount of work for Angela, because if you look at these, we these as a result of getting a lot of people into the same room on the same time, you know it's usually three or four or five people doing the interviewing, and then they then the series of the applicants because we have to get all the applicants available, and they're very short interviews their 15 minute interviews. And we have a pretty standard format that we follow for every interview and for each of this appointments you might have a difference you know you can have two times as many people who have applied so when you think about how you know, and I don't know the number for HRC. Suppose it was like this might be an hour worth of interviewing plus consultation plus the setting up, and everybody has a change of time just so I just want to recognize Angela's work and pulling this together and she's oftentimes consulting with people if they don't get appointed, what would you think of this position or that position can a lot of folks come up and just say, I just want to donate my time. So, first one HRC. We have two really good candidates and Deborah Coladne is, is a met her at some event at Mill River and she quickly introduced herself she's a lawyer she's a rabbi. She moved here fairly recently from Portland or again was very involved in a lot of progressive causes in and has been on working with police oversight boards, which is what she also wants to serve on some point has been a facilitator, the labor negotiator with with municipal unions, a lot of background, and really wants to work to help committees to get to a healthy dialogue and then a conclusion. So, she seems like a very strong candidate for the Human Rights Commission we're losing some very strong people off the HRC to so that's why it's important to have strong people. Smith is a student at Amherst College. She has been very passionate about human rights issues since high school. We have for many of our committees we've had several candidates from Amherst College there's a push amongst students among faculty to get students to put their names forward. But I think three students from Amherst College who were interested for this committee in particular so it's one that resonates with students a lot. Just sent us clearly the best we could we didn't feel like it was right to put more than one where I have one Amherst College student on the HRC we didn't want to put three, basically. So, so she will be a very strong candidate. And is will be here for another two years. And since the HRC is meeting remotely. You know, she's going to be here through the summer so it's not going to be an issue but for them when she meets and she's one of the things we ask about HRC members is they're willing to do sort of legwork for events that the HRC puts on. So that's Human Rights Commission. I have a quick question. Sure. There are two replacements over there was there a vacancy. There, there are there are people who are who are coming off who don't want to be reappointed. Okay, whether whether to so you fill their fees. I think, I think, I think we have more, we have more vacancies on HRC. Okay. So Phillip is going to be coming off because he's moving and somebody else Cedric I think is coming off. The second is the months of Memorial building trustees. This is a three member committee that helps to guide the policies at the months and Memorial building. A relatively new resident to town moved here during the during the pandemic is a librarian a school librarian has been involved in libraries a lot. While this isn't necessarily a library oversight position. There is the branch of the Jones of the library in the building. And she's a neighbor and the charge for the months and building is that at least they we have to we prefer someone who is from South Amherst. So, and she's a she's a person who frequents the building a lot with her kids. And a lot with her kids and stuff like that. And a graduate of Hampshire College. Never failed to mention that. For the Community Preservation Act Committee to very strong candidates. One is Becky Demling, who has been previously served on the Recreation Commission has a longtime volunteer in the schools. She's very much interested in recreational thing and activities, especially maintaining our parks, not just building new ones make making sure they get taken care of. And brings a perspective of a parent, especially a parent of a special needs student so she'll be a good addition and then Bob Saul is someone and Andy may know Bob I don't know him, but until I met him and he's a interesting person he lives on East Hadley Road owns a farm. He used to be on the finance committee in the audit committee some time ago. And I think Angela was trying to was in the recruitment mode and so she's talking this up all the time and she has some connection to him. And, and he said I haven't been involved in a long time. He is a really into maple syrup and stuff like that. So, so he, but he's a really solid person and good addition to the CPA committee and basically said I have no, you know, I don't have any special interest. I'm just, you know, coming at this open minded. So, so those are those two. The advisory committee, Zoe Solis. She has been working in social service agencies for for many years. And has done contract management has done program evaluation. And she has a row of fondness for our public schools. Her kids really benefited from our public schools and she really felt important for her to give back. And she brings multiple languages to to the endeavor. Council on aging, three really interesting candidates, Mark Barrett, who you may remember last time we talked about him. He was appointed to the housing authority. He's a resident of on chest dot street. He moved here relatively recently used to live in Belcher town where he initiated the rainbow coffee hour. He's doing the same thing for our senior center has been actively volunteering he's you may have seen him if you were at the volunteer fair at the open house for the senior center he's he's really actively involved with the senior center and will be a real strong member of the of the council on aging. So, he's a person who is a person who, again, relocated to town after living in town for many, many years, and has a real broad range of interest and skills. And, and one of her interests is really making sure that, which I think we call younger older adults people in their 60s, who might not consider themselves seniors are getting engaged and being plugged in and that we start to program more actively for that. One of our senior center directors role missions is to make the senior center not feel it's just for older people. It is, but it's not just for older people. So, and then, Don Ripley is a, again, a relatively new resident to town he has been because his children and grandchildren here. And he was very impressive in his interview with the kinds of values that he felt was really important for the senior center to hold. He's been on the board of trustees of an assisted living skilled nursing facility for for a very long time was actually president of the board really had a sense of what a board should do and could do the role of a president of a board or chair of a committee. And, and just had a real sort of nuanced understanding of what older people need it at different stages of their lives. So, really interesting new person to be involved with the town. Water supply protection committee. A lot of interest in this committee, it's a committee that doesn't be very frequently, you know, two or three or four times a year. But it is, you know, that we have so much talent in this in this community, we had lots of people with really high level skill sets who were interested in this. Because it's an important committee because it really, you know, looks at water supply issues, you know, they did a study on the solar impact on the water supply earlier this year. Professor Guzman is a system professor of at the university. When he talked about the kind of research he did about the impact of groundwater and surface water on water supplies and he's studying things in Massachusetts he takes his classes to Lake Warner and Hadley. And it's just like so relevant to what this committee has to do in terms of looking at our the town's water resources. It's a very, very strong committee and staffed really well by Amy Rusecki and Beth Wilson who's our environmental scientist at the DPW. So I think those are all the new appointments. Yeah. Wow. Thank you for something. Thank you for that and also please extend our thanks to Angela for all her hard work and not only helping with these appointments for getting those who weren't appointed in spaces where they can be of service. Andy. And as Paul mentioned that I knew and had worked with Bob Saul when who's one of the two CPA designees and that's absolutely correct on the old finance committee back in those days, which is before I was on the select board. I remember that committee and Bob was a member of the committee. He was excellent he asked he was very analytical very well informed to ask good questions. It was a real contributor and a real collaborative person and the other one person who was nominated for that committee is Becky Domling, and I actually worked with her also. And in a different capacity when I was on the select board. I was liaison to the LSSC Commission, and she was a member of the LSSC Commission at that time which is how I first got to know Becky. And she was also very interested and regular attendee very thoughtful very well informed. So, I just leave it at that. Thank you. You ready on it. I'm ready. You still have to do six of them but it's not 27. Okay. I moved for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council the town manager appointment of Zoe Solis, excuse me, to the community development block grant advisory committee for a term to expire June 30, 2025. No second. All right, we'll call Shawnee. Yes. Okay. Andy. Yes. Yes. And I'm a yes so that is a four with four with one. I can never do it. I will never get that acronym to flow off of my tongue. Okay. I moved for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council the town manager appointment of Rebecca Demling and appointments of Rebecca Demling and Bob Saul to the Community Preservation Act committee for terms to expire June 30, 2026. Do I have a second. Second. Oh, and it. All right. I moved for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council the town manager appointments of Mark Barrett, Sarah McComb and Don Ripley to the council on aging for a term to expire June 30, for terms to expire June 30, 2026. Second. Okay, thank you. Okay. Shawnee. Yes. Andy. Yes. Anna. Yes. And I'm a yes. Okay. So that's four with one absence. Thank you. I moved for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council the town manager appointment of appointments of Deborah Coladney and Jacinta Smith to the human rights commission for terms to expire June 30, 2026, and June 30, 2025 respectively. Second. Thanks, Mika. And then we'll call that Shawnee. Andy. Yes. Hi. And I'm a yes as well. Or again. Two more. I moved for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council the town manager appointment of Jenny Arch to the Munson Memorial Building Trustees for a term to expire June 30, 2025. Second. Hey, thank you, Sean. All right. Call it. Andy. Yes. Shawnee. Yes. Hi. And I am an eye so for with one absent. And last but not least, I moved for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council, the town manager appointment of Christian Guzman to the water supply protection committee for a term to expire June 30, 2026. Back in Shawnee. Thank you, Sean. And we'll call it Andy. Yes. Hi. And I am an eye for again, one absent. That's all I got until we get to reappointments. All right, back to you. Can we come back to you for reappointments? Sure. So there are 20 names here for your reappointments and they're all pretty standard. I will highlight three things for you. In the affordable housing trust, you'll notice that there are two year appointments and that's in the bylaw. So trust members only get two year appointments. Everybody else is three year appointments. The second is the registrar of voters under the state law. You need equal represent representation from the Democrat Democratic Party and the Republican Party. Jamie Wagner represents the Republican Party. And so we're grateful that she has re-upped to serve in that capacity. And then the water supply protection committee, which we just talked about Jack Jemsek has been on, and the chair of the committee felt very strongly that he should be reappointed because of he's the only hydro geologist that's on the committee and brought a skill set that they didn't, that nobody else replicated. So everybody else is pretty much was it you know they're all just renewals. Thank you. So there are a number of levels of commitment and dedication and not just renewals exactly there. There's so much. All right, you ready? Yes. All right, I move for the town services and outreach committee to recommend to the town council the approval of all committee reappointments and their term expiration dates as specified by the town manager in the appointments memo dash reappointments dated May 30, 2023. Thank you. Thank you, Sean. Roll call Andy. Yes. Hi. Sean. Yes. Thank you. Or with. So you will get one more memo like this reappointment memo. This is the first group. There'll be there's another group coming once we get everything lined up for that. So you'll have another memo similar to this with a lot of other committees. So if they're not on this committee, it doesn't mean they're not getting reappointed. It's just so. Thank you. Thank you. We look forward to that. Right. Both the bills and reappointments. So that's great. Now we are going to move on again to Paul, who is going to give us an update. I think many of us are aware we've been receiving many emails about the question school crossing. Paul is going to give us an update about where, where we are, what goes on there. Yeah, so if, if you're familiar with the Cushman school on Henry street in North Amherst, what happens now is parents are parking on both sides of the street and then they walk across the street is a high. There's a lot of cars that go by there and some at a higher rate of speed. I think, and also we all know that when you're walking and you're on the side of the road, if a car goes by, even at within the speed limit, it feels like it's going fast. So police have, they were up there for a week. Did some traffic monitoring and identified speeds and the types of vehicles that were traveling. They did it at the beginning of the day between 810 at the end of the day between three and five. That information has been shared with the neighbors as well. So there's a group of parents and guardians who have their children in the school plus administrators at the school who are interested in trying to do something to keep the children and the parents guardian safe. Right now people park on one side of the street and then have to walk across and sometimes cars and trucks can be moving pretty swiftly. So they had suggested a number of things and, you know, and we had a little bit of communication issues within our departments between police and DPW police were saying, looking at suggestions and saying that makes sense to us. It goes to the town engineer and he says that's not allowed under the uniform manual of traffic control devices. This uniform manual is something that all states use. It's you're supposed, you're not supposed to put a traffic control device or whatever or the signage supposed to look similar from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. It's so that when you travel from Amherst to Hadley, your expectations as a driver shouldn't have to shift. Like, suddenly you, you know, they have stop signs everywhere or they don't like, you know, you can imagine imagine as Hadley said, we want to put a stop sign at every intersection on route nine. They would, you know, so it's supposed to control what what what is allowed. What are the warrants what they call to allow for traffic control devices. So they had a number of different ideas one making it a one way street, some putting additional signage up. And so we met today with our staff only police and DPW and we have a number of suggestions and concerns and some different sort of levels of addressing the issue. And some of it might be, you know, that I think that sort of common thing was, can we can we help it so people don't cross the street period like that's that's the first that's where the the the issue comes up is when people are trying to cross the street and put the parking adjacent to the school so you don't have to cross the street ever. So that's one of the ways of looking at this. But so our next step is to have this group that met today from police and DPW to meet with the school administrator and the neighbors. Dr. Anderson's been really involved and very coherent and how they've organized materials has been really helpful and get that on the calendar. So, and it might be something that comes back to the town council at some point, but we will talk about different options that we can do. You know, we'd like one that we were trying to figure out if we're allowed to put schools on lights because it's not truly a school it's a daycare thing. And so there's but there's been some changes to the law recently. So we're they're looking into what can actually be done there. And what and what what we'll make a difference. Thank you. Thank you for taking up this issue so quickly and bring a letting us know about your meeting acting so quickly. Anna. Oh, thank you this is really helpful I think it's it's helpful in a broader context too because I think we get a lot of requests for traffic calming and it's it's helpful to know that there's a standard that is applied. I can't necessarily just ask for anything that we think would be helpful even though we we know it would be helpful. And I'm curious in your opinion, in your understanding. Where would changes from like where do where would advocacy for changes to that happen so for example where would, where would we advocate to have preschools or daycare centers be included I guess preschools might be but daycare centers might be included in an opportunity to have a school I recognize the myriad of ways to go terribly wrong but where's the advocacy on that. So I mean if it's if it's a state law it's a state law right. And so if you're in a school and we just didn't know have the information at this meeting whether daycare centers that were included in that or not. That's the first piece of information so they may be included and that's fine, because that makes you allow allow you to drop the speed limit from to down to 20 miles per hour. During during during certain periods of time which you see that during, you know, during this, you know, at our three elementary schools in high school. Another thing though is that we also think about okay if it goes here well what other schools in this same type of thing might want them to be applied and so there's a you know half a dozen other schools of this ilk that we could may may say hey we want this to, and we have to decide if it isn't a standard yes to everybody is it going to be a case by case situation. And so just want to make sure that the council understands the full context of what the decision is when it comes to you. And do you know where we can find that manual to read it. Yeah, I can send it. Oh the manual. Sure, I can send you. Yeah, I mean I think it'd be helpful for us to know as we get the youth. I think there's a state law there's state law regulate speeding and what can be called a school zone. And then there's, and I can send you links to both of these and then there's the you know for manual of traffic control devices which is the Bible that the town engineer uses. And sure. I think it's online. Great, I can, I think I caught what you said but if you could send it out that would be really helpful. Sure. Does everybody want it. Yes. Fair enough. Thank you. Yeah, I think that really would be often when we get questions from folks about traffic calming I don't even know where to start and so it's really it would be helpful to be able to at least have an understanding of what's possible under current law and where we might want to advocate with our legislators if that feels like something that's important enough for us to want to do. Yes, so the you know for manual is something that engineers do nationwide. It's not a state thing that you know, we can advocate there too. But yeah, I got you. Thank you. Thank you. Andy. Yeah. Living just a couple hundred yards from that intersection I know it well. And I've actually this is not the first time this issue has arisen in my memory. I remember that there was a big push on to install stop signs in all directions that that intersection with Pine Street and Henry Street was a thought that that was going to reduce speeds, but people would have to be nearing a stop sign to stop anyway. And, you know, that didn't happen then and now it's helpful to have that information as to why it didn't happen at the time that it came up previously. It is, it is a problem and I think that the biggest difficulty is exactly what Paul said, and that is that you've got a large number of parents dropping off kids because it's a older was originally elementary school, you know, like a three room schoolhouse that belong to the town. And I think originally was rented to the day care center of the preschool, and I think that we did some sale or 99 year lease or something like that. But in any event, the, it's a fairly large building and so that there's a lot of kids that get dropped off there and picked up there which makes it different from a lot of other locations. And the point that Paul made about the big problem is that the cars having to park on the other side of the street. So I hope that as DPW looks at it. They think about suggestions that they might make to the school itself about whether they can move the employee parking to some other location so that those parking places that are sort of just beyond the school towards Pine Street. And in front of the playground and be used as this parking for people who are dropping off and picking up kids that then parents wouldn't have to walk across the street with their kids so I hope that is thinking creatively about what they might suggest to the school to participate in the solution. Yeah, I think I think there's some low cost solution like if they wanted to hire crossing guards to help people cross you know that would be one thing that could just be done. Now, more expensive solutions would be to create additional parking adjacent to the school. Sometimes the parking for employees also includes specialists there and it depends on the student population who if they have spent your audiologist or who show up and they need to park as well. And where they tend to park if they tend to park adjacent to school or across the street from the school. We start to talk a little bit about if it worked one way, what would be then there's there's always some ancillary impacts so if all those cars coming up Henry Street turn had to turn left on to Pine Street and then turn right on to East Leverett Road or hypotenuse cut through there somehow. What would that. How could trucks navigate that it's already fine she's already a narrow road. So there's just a lot of things to take into consideration if that's something the council want to explore. I think that's something would be a much bigger study that would have to be done. Yeah, and I guess my only comment about what you just said is that I think that there's a difference between somebody who's walking across the street with preschooler and all the things you have to bring with you to school. And an adult who's show coming because they're providing special services, but they're not being responsible for very young child at the same time. So moving the parking places I think is something that ought to be considered even I think there's no prohibition in itself for parking on the other side of the street. So that could be a solution. And I think that we all came to the conclusion that preventing little kids from having to cross the street because you know they can run away, you know, you can, you lose grip or whatever you're having closed the door yet is best this. You know, that's the best solution not not have to say if they don't have to cross the street that's the best solution. Yes. Great. Were there any other questions or comments. Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. And for our residents for writing it. So we're now we're going to then to I'm not sure if this is 34 or five or the fifth rather review for our proposed street like policy. So we have a lot of this on our agenda this evening in great part because as of our last discussion there were clearly some questions, and he was celebrating a birthday and wasn't able to be with us. And so this is an opportunity for any of us who have further questions or concerns that we would like to extend to Anna and then Mandy and also really in main part of the show and he had a different proposal that she wanted to bring forward and talk with us about today. So again, the goal would be here that if there are questions thoughts concerns as we would get them out today. Relay them to the sponsors and this item will be back on our agenda for our next meeting on the 15th with the goal of taking action then so that'd be the 15th of June. And Dorothy as I said before she's not with us but she did state that any and all her her concerns and questions about the policy that she relayed during the last meeting. Nika, could you bring me to the audience. I'm sorry. Mandy is in the audience. Oh yes. Sorry. Excuse me. Okay, she was in before. Welcome Mandy. Welcome. Thank you for being with us. Okay, so with that shouting. I'm going to have the floor with you. Okay, so the proposal that Nika mentioned is a larger thing which I can talk about later but more specifically about the lighting by law I just wanted to highlight some of the questions and concerns I had that I think what I'm hoping is that if you can answer those, you know, we can move forward with the goal of them being able to vote on it. The first question is about tax recommendations, the transportation advisory committee, they had emailed us with two specific recommendations. One was to add in your bio in the policy at crosswalks and bus stops as locations where street lights will be provided and I think that's on page one of the policy and I see that you have added regional transit bus stops. The policy does not include local bus stops and crosswalks have not been included. And so is there a reason for excluding those and Tracy also sent us research showing why it's important to have lighting at these intersections. So is there a reason why the policy does not include these street lights there at crosswalks and bus stops. And then also should I wait for response on our mandate would you like to respond. Um, you can go ahead with the second question. Okay, unless maybe unless maybe hasn't. And then the other recommendation that they had was to rephrase the section. We all received but I just want to make sure that we are acknowledging that we received tax recommendations and then I also wanted to hear from the sponsors point of view how you're resolving either making the changes according to their recommendations or you have a reason for not doing so and what is that reason. So the other recommendation was rephrase the section saying that street lights will not be provided by the town. For pedestrians in residential near neighborhoods and to remove the phrase, because such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in the town. It's part of the same sentence and I think this request was made to, because the weight is right now, even though it was the original language in 2001. It's not a town of Amherst street lights policy but it seems like unfriendly to pedestrians and other vulnerable road users and this was the reasoning that Tracy Zafian sent that it seems unfriendly and since we're trying to move towards a walkable sustainable town that maybe rephrasing this part and to just get rid of that part, which is that. Yeah, anyway, you got we all got that email. So those were the two questions pertaining how we're responding to tax recommendations. You want me to try and answer them on or would you like to. If you want to start that'd be great and then I can fill in like, yeah, I will start so crosswalks. They were not added. Going back, we went back to trying not to do anything at all with placement, because when we talked about changing anything related to where street lights go. It became immensely more difficult to, to make those decisions, because the outreach needed the discussion with the DPW with all of the other boards and committees and frankly that everyone has different opinions as to where street lights should be. So our tact when we went to this sort of plan when we removed all of the proposals related to location, the, the attempt was to keep the location standards as similar to where they are now as possible. You'll notice that I even left in the ends of cul-de-sacs which I think is absolutely ridiculous personally, because you can do that with with reflectors you don't need a light at the end of cul-de-sacs. You can make it safe with just reflectors, but so starting with that premise, trying to minimize the amount of changes or any changes to where street lights will be provided because of the necessary public outreach and conversation that needs to go along with any of those changes. Crosswalks. While this policy already provides all intersections, nearly all crosswalks are intersections. And so their most crosswalks are already lit because they're located at intersections which under this policy lighting is provided at intersections. The crosswalks that are not at intersections, lighting, this type of street lighting, number one may not be the most appropriate, we don't know. There may not be a method of adding a street light at a mid-block crosswalk because there might not be a power pole there, which is how we tend to add the street lights right now. And so mid-block crosswalks, we thought needed a different type of consideration than being just put into this policy. So that's why we didn't add crosswalks. We thought most crosswalks were already covered by the intersection coverage and the other ones needed a different discussion as to what would be more appropriate there. Would mid-block crosswalks benefit from a light overhead more or less than they might benefit from a flashing beacon like we have at some intersections that you press when you're actually a pedestrian there and wanting to cross that starts flashing. Just needed a different conversation, we believed. And bus stops. The word bus stop is very vague in and of itself. Does it include, if we were just to say at bus stops, does it include just the PVTA? Does it include the PVTA plus the buses that the shuttles that run from the new apartment complex on Route 9 to UMass? Does it include school bus stops? Does it include summer shuttle bus stops? Does it include Peter Pan bus stops? You get where I'm going. So the thought in putting regional transit bus stops was to ensure that the bus stops we're talking about are those PVTA buses. Those are the bus stops we're talking about. Not the summer camp shuttle buses that might stop somewhere in town, three months a year. Not the shuttle buses that run from apartment complexes or Applewood into town and where they drop off and pick up. So that's why we picked regional transit bus stops. And the last one was the language. And I would just say to the language in that paragraph removal of for pedestrians in residential neighborhoods unless at least one of the above criteria is met. Or be cut and then the phrase because such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in town. Well, frankly, such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in town if it doesn't meet one of these guidelines and is quote for pedestrians. And so from my personal point of view on I might have a different one that would actually potentially cause more problems if you're eliminating street lights will not be provided by provided for pedestrians in residential neighborhoods, unless one of these is because any pedestrian, no matter how, how little is walked in a neighborhood could in theory request a light. So, if you don't require pedestrian light requests to fit one of these criteria, you've now just opened up the entire placement conversation again, which is what we were trying not to do that that's my opinion on it might have a different reason for not having proposed to take those, those phrases out. So I think that for me it opens up a big window for inequity right so again like if we think about squeaky wheels and in this instance squeaky wheel meaning folks who know how to advocate for themselves right it's not a bad thing to be a squeaky wheel it's that people know how to, how the system works and how to advocate and all of that and so I think that we, we want to make sure that we're being really consistent and how we, how we are, are affording opportunity and I also think that it does yeah if we're not applying a really solid metric. We're also not giving an opportunity for folks who might also live in that area to have a say in what goes in and what doesn't right so if my neighbor really was was able to fight hard and wants or just asks for a streetlight and gets it but I didn't want one what's my recourse and so it gets into this additional layer that didn't really feel equitable or fair on a baseline level. So I think what they're trying to say is that we already the policy is already saying that this is where it's going to be provided so this is the criteria. So just to change the language a little bit to like you don't need to say like, oh, like we're already saying this is a criteria that is going to determine where the lights go. So I don't think we need to say and if you're going to come to us for any other reason we're not going to listen to you. So what we need to say that is I think the point that's being made if you can just adjust the language to and maybe just at least remove that line because it's obvious that that's the criteria. I'm sorry to have a question so I get a shout out about your light you're reading that with tone and so with the. Now that the set the actual sentence has gone out of my head but it's just saying that. So as a sentence basically saying that you need to meet these light a request for a streetlight would need to meet this criteria. I can address some of that so so the paragraph reads I'm going to read the whole paragraph because it's all in context so there's a list of places that start with the streetlights will generally be provided by the town as follows and then there's a bullet pointed list. Then there's a paragraph and that paragraph reads assuming the changes are made from select board to town council and the town council shall interpret the application of the above criteria to specific streetlights and the town will provide streetlights at other locations deemed appropriate by the town council. However streetlights will not be provided by the town as security lighting for private property, or for pedestrians in residential neighborhoods unless at least one of the above criteria is met, or the town council otherwise deems the situation to require a streetlight, because such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in town. I think my question with that is, if we just took out the because such lighting could be requested virtually with that. I think it's, I don't know, we didn't put it in there but if that is a solution. I mean, I personally am fine with that I'm not sure what I think it was trying to contextualize the request because I think people didn't really understand why, why that was in there in past years. I think Andy has a sign of I just want to hear what he has to say and then I can, and please go. You're muted. Okay, now I'm not muted. I'm struggling a little bit with the criteria question to because I have had conversations with some people in certain neighborhoods who were making a good case. I would describe it as follows that if there's a residential street, and there's a higher than normal vehicular and pedestrian traffic level, and there are no sidewalks that that combination of circumstances creates special criteria. And I guess I'm not what I was trying to figure out is, does our process allow for consideration of those kinds of factors or should we actually be at least saying that if there is a combination of circumstances and no sidewalks. No sidewalks and exceptionally high vehicular and pedestrian traffic. It should be considered doesn't mean it has to be done but so that was, that was my question that's consistent with this. There's no other item that's unrelated. So hold it for later. Thank you. Shawna, did you have another question. Um, yeah. Manager when you said intersections includes cross we were sorry, not the intersections. That's my page. I think it was around the bus stops. Do they include the local buses. So I don't mean like the camps and all of that but the language that's used right now the regional. What is it. Plus, all the pages. Where is it. It is the regional transit bus stop. Does that include the bus stops that people are taking the buses in our neighborhoods and local. If I were to local buses, I'm sorry, our buses were PVTA. So I'm a little stuck on. Yeah. The regional bus stop. Yeah, the PVTA is a regional transit authority. So every stop that the PVTA does is a regional bus stop. Okay, okay, okay. So that is covered. And then I, I don't know if the, I mean, I'm just responding to our speaking on behalf since Tracy is not here and since tech does have the expertise in this area and the research. So make sure that we are acknowledging and addressing the questions. So as long as it is covering what they think they're advising us is safe. And if it covers that, then I'm good with that. And then in terms of the language again. I'm just removing in the lease removing that last line, which I don't think is adding anything, but it does sound a little in your face, kind of. And since it has come from tech, which is a committee that we are inviting feedback from so I think it's, if it's not adding anything really substantial, I think it's, it's a good idea to just remove that line. I didn't know if anyone answered Andy's question about. That's what I raised my hand for if I could. I think Andy, there are two phrases within that paragraph that that give the council the flexibility necessary the first one is the town will provide streetlights at other locations deemed appropriate by the town council. So the town council interprets the application of the criteria, and then the town provides streetlights at other locations deemed appropriate by the council. And then the other freight that's the first sentence, and the second front sentence that starts however streetlights will not be provided for security lighting or pedestrians and residential neighborhoods unless at least one of the above criteria is met, or the town council otherwise deems the situation to require a streetlight. And then there's the phrase, because such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in town so I think some of the situations you talk about deem interpretation what is heavy pedestrian traffic. What is road conditions deemed potentially hazardous areas with high accident you know there there's a little bit of interpretation in there, and it, it provides that additional ability for the town council to say, this is a spot where maybe we need more light and is typically provided because there are thousands of UMass students walking along the street every day. You know, for example, and there aren't sidewalks or the sidewalks need lit or watch them because of that. I would just say, I think the phrase I mean I'll go with the TSO obviously needs to make its choice, but the phrase because such lighting could be requested virtually everywhere in town. I think does add something personally I think it does clarify that you know. We have to make decisions, because we're not going to light every area of town and provide a streetlight where everyone wants to have one, because they walk their dog at night on a barely lit street but don't want to carry a flashlight. We're not going to provide that and I think the because such lighting could be requested does provide it but it's clearly up to TSO to make that decision if there's a motion. Anna. I'm wondering, Paul if you have any insights into, I mean I understand what Mandy is saying and I'm curious Paul if you have any insights into what the origins of that particular line are that you might share if it's something that DPW felt needed to go in there if it's whoever initially wrote this I'm assuming town meeting somehow some way. If there's any other understanding that we might gain from, from the background of this that you know if I could read your lips you don't know, but I did. I don't have any insights into that I mean we'd have to get asked Guilford for sure. Right. Okay. So it sounds like as we should also, as Mandy and I discussed the merits of keeping or taking that away. We can also talk to Guilford to ask his opinion on it and as the people who are who would be installing these as his opinion on that specific sentence. We've already, we have spoken to him about the policy of course but that didn't come up in any of our conversations with him before but we can ask him very specifically about it. Is it possible like if it has to be included maybe tweaking it in a way that it does not do you want me to just read I think it's very compelling what Tracy wrote, should I just read it quickly. Where is that. So she said that the language is a tone that is unfriendly to pedestrians and other vulnerable road users and can be viewed as a is contradicting both town transportation and sustainability goals of encouraging more residents to walk and bike and take transit and use their cars less and town goals about creating a more age friendly community. And that goes to the recent age friendly community assessment and needs service shows that many current and future seniors are concerned about transportation safety and walking safety, including how dark some street sidewalks and neighborhoods at night. In March 2023 tack pastor motion recommended that the language we removed. Okay. Andy. I was just going to say that if you want history I think we'd have to figure out when the original policy was implemented I think it was by the select board at the time. And if we can identify any current residents of the time who are on that select board, then we'll have a basis for finding out if there's any history that's available for it. It shows that it was adopted December 3 2001. And I guess we have to go back and look and who is on the select board at that time, which I don't know the. She's been banned with to do right the second. But Brian Harvey might be somebody who is on the select board at that time. I'd have a recollection. Thank you. I'll add my two cents of somebody who's been a walker forever. I am someone who has carried a flashlight in the most lit up area of town. And, you know, I, I, I appreciate everything that we can do to move chores being sustainable and having more efficient lights, but also love being able to walk around. I know that we have we're in a car culture here and in many places not just here any space usually where there is no sidewalk or bike path is kind of a at your own risk. You're walking on it so to speak. And, you know, I think last would be just, you know, but I think for many of us is just kind of moving into to move into that walkability you're also moving into just normalizing walking and biking as not just a leisure or exercise, but just someone's preferred or maybe only means of transportation, especially within within town center where you're just, you know, walking to get errands I nine times out of 10 wouldn't think about. I don't drive anyway but if I did and when I do which will be this summer, I would not think about driving to CVS, you know, and I was like really bad whether I wasn't well. So that's just my two sense of consideration and before we move to you again shall and I just wanted to check in with Anna and Mandy that best ish this item is on the agenda again for the 15th. Do you think that you all be ready with either any adjustments that you may or may not consider in. I mean, would it be appropriate since we, we all have the proposal and we've gone over and we've read it a few times that if there are any other questions that anyone has for Mandy and Anna that they would be sent in the interim. I'll speak to myself I know that I have a couple chunks of time so as long as Mandy and I can coordinate a time to get together. We can get some answers to these questions hopefully all of them and be ready for the 15th. Okay, and and I just go ahead. Yeah I had one other item. And that is under the page that's called implementation of appendix a. I think that we're going a little bit too far in picking on our town manager when we say that time manager lets us know that he's a problem with six month deadline that it has to go back to the council. The last portion of number two is really unnecessary and think that we have to, and should trust the good faith of our town manager to either make the deadline or have good reason to extend it, and to notify us that he's having to extend it or make it to the council. I think it's an unnecessary piece. So it's just not that. May, may I. Sorry. So that was, that's not language at all for the policy itself it was leftover that I didn't delete. So I moved to this appendix a that had been in the original policy about implementation standards that was written into the policy. I left it in because I thought maybe TSO might want to suggest as part of the adoption of the policy or if TSO recommends adoption of these changes that part of that motion might include some sort of implementation timeline. So I thought it might be helpful as we get to potentially recommending the policy itself for TSO to think about how the policy gets adopted once implemented because if there's potentially not something listed similar to what's in the new of that implementation, in theory, everything would be out of compliance immediately. And I'm not sure that's what the council is going for, but I didn't think instead of putting it in the policy itself it could be part of the motion to the council. So that's why I left the language there but it's up for discussion. Thank you there. I just, I just wanted to, I forgot to ask one question that was about the bus stops or the art is lighting at the bus stops even a something that is in control of the town. It is. Okay. All right, it's in the public way. And so it's, I don't know. Okay, I don't know why for some reason I thought it was. Okay, that answers that and I, and Mandy, did you still have your hand up or if not, we'll go on to show. So yeah, the second issue is around dimming. And within that, I think that's still problematic. It's on page six if possible and not cost prohibitive streets skip lighting shall be dim to no more than 70% of normal limited levels by 11pm or and so that paragraph. And the reason why that's still problematic based on what I've heard from Tracy again from and just personally is that we have a number of buses that are running late and last time we discussed it and we thought 11 was the latest but Tracy actually send the schedule to us and the latest one is at 120am. And then the other issue around that is walking back and forth from downtown so we're talking about downtown being in keeping the lights, but people have to walk from downtown to their residential areas. So dimming the light as they're walking back at night is a problem. We talked about business I don't know if you all had a chance to speak with what was the impact on businesses and the recommendation was to speak with either the businesses directly or through bid get some feedback from the business improvement or chambers or some way of finding out from businesses, how this might impact them as well as to the workers who might be taking buses at night and so how that might affect. So is that something we need and we also heard that it's caught it's probably not available or it's really costly. So is that something we need to include at this point, or rather we can wait for the technology to be better and by then we could have done a better long a bigger survey and figured out how that would work effectively. And many of them I know means answering for you but I did just want to point out Sean and we did pull up the actual bus schedule last time, and how late the buses ran that they were after one. The sponsors had put in there and added that the, the, the dimming wouldn't occur until it was like I think please correct me if I'm wrong was like 3am. It ended up being around that time. Maybe I'm mistaken but I know we actually pulled up the schedule and pulled up the last bus. Okay, I had it wrong then. Okay, so. I just want to say the dimming would be within one hour of the end of closing time for the within the municipal parking district which is the downtown area or within a village center area. Within one hour of the closing time of the last bar or live music venue and so many of the closing times are one or two in the morning and so in those areas, the dimming would have to happen by 3am which would be plenty of time for people to get out, get on a bus, potentially walk home depending on how you define a village center. Everywhere else it would be 11pm. Yeah, and everywhere else it would be 11pm in town, just to correct that bus schedules I don't have it handy. Well, I mean, it's like South Anaheim Village Centers don't have a bar, I mean they have a bar I don't know what the closing is maybe 12, I don't know. So just saying that the last bar may not be the ideal without knowing what I mean the whole thing just seems pretty problematic to me without really knowing what the exact we're like hypothesizing I think the bars close at 12 maybe they'll close at one maybe at two. So it should be fine. We're all like speculating here it feels like it should be fine till three without really knowing what the numbers are. Yep, so the bar in South Amherst is open until 1am, as are some of the ones downtown as well. I don't know that from personal experience I feel like I should clarify. I would want to say one other thing which is 70% is actually still fairly high. So, so, you know, if it's the equivalent let's see if I can do something in town in that people 100 watt light bulb it's changing a 100 watt light bulb to a 75 or 70 per 70 watt light bulb not not a 50 or 40 watt light bulb. And it's it's that sort of dimming that sort of level of change depending on where you start but if you imagine a 100 watt old old time light bomb, putting in a 70 watt instead I know there's not really 70 watts there were 75 and 60 and 40 but it doesn't really work. But that that's the difference. So, you know, what we have heard or what I have heard when talking to people is that most people don't even notice that difference at all. And so, the language could be revisited. If it happens. And if it becomes a problem I would say because the dimming is programmable. If you've got the dimming. But if you take the dimming out completely from the policy, you might never have the dimming capability. Unless you brought it in at the time when it came. And then they would have be a proper process of talking with the businesses with the public with the residents or because this does say that it will reduce it in residents at 11pm. And then their residents who are walking to their own neighborhoods. So even though in downtown it may be up till three but then as you're walking towards your neighborhood. It's going to be dark. So, I guess what I was trying to say is if there's no dimming provided in the policy at all. The luminaires and the lights will not be bought with dimming capabilities. At all. And if they're not bought you have 20 years before you get dimming capabilities again potentially unless you go out and buy again. The policy is trying to look forward to make sure that the proper. The possibility is kept that there will be dimming if it's not cost prohibitive. And so if we swap them out with lights that do not have the capacity to dim, we're looking at another 10 years or more if we get better lights which we're hoping to do. So, yeah, like swapping in 10 years anyways like we're not swapping in the next six months or so. We'd be swapping within the next eight or nine years when the relamping occurs. If it's not cost prohibitive then we would buy dimmings but if we don't put the requirement to buy dimmings in if not cost prohibitive. Then we probably won't have dimming and then it will be another 20 years till you get dimming capabilities. And all of that would require a town council or town counselors who would want to write that question into the right that edit into this policy and Mandy and I are here now we do not know if we will be here in 10 years if we will be, you know, and so I think that that's that's why we're putting it in now. No, I hear what you're saying that I totally agree with you with the reasoning that it's good to have it so that when we buy it, it will be there. But my concern is without doing the appropriate. This is where I feel it does need a little more involved feedback for the people who are actually walking and who are workers or residents who are walking and relying on street like how is it affecting them and that and something we could in like we could include after because that was the proposal that I was going to introduce is and in talking with Tracy, and that and that maybe this needs to be a separate I don't know if it needs to be a separate agenda item or not but the idea would be to really look systematically at road safety from the residents point of view and the businesses point of view and what makes them feel safe to go out and walk and bike and maybe even including ECAC in this as a townwide survey that really looks at what are the neighborhoods what are the challenges that people are encountering. And then part of that could include questions around this dimming and so forth. But I didn't want this particular policy to be delayed and be tied to that one so that which is why I was thinking like if we can just separate that this dimming part out or if you're really really wanting it in Tracy has mentioned some language that might might ensure or make sure the safety is is forefront so I can read that language or send it to you all but I think that's something that needs to be discussed by TSO what is the language we want. So show me with your request for today you were going to have an action in action to follow what you with what your suggestions were I just have before that you do that or we move on or you submit your questions or what Tracy had said to you on and Mandy. I did just have one last question forgive me if it is in this policy already but was there a time of late we're dimming an hour after the latest business closes was was there what time are they coming back on. Would they just be off until until sunrise whenever that is like what about winter months when it's dark until they would be dimmed until dawn and then at dawn they would go off like all street lights would the street lights could be turned on no later than dusk and off no later than dawn and so that would be dimmed from the time they start the dimming until their turn. Okay, thank you that should be obvious but I was just wondering about those like long winter nights. Okay. Well I guess I just want to hear from other people how they feel about the dimming and do we want that to be part of this or do we want to separate that out and do the townwide survey or a larger public forum and then decide what the language is going to be an aspect that's separately. So I'm happy to go where the committee is I just, and if you do keep the dimming then I do have alternative language that I can provide. But first can we just decide if I just want to hear from others in the committee, how do you feel about separating out the dimming aspect. And would you like to still keep it in. It's a surprising one I'd like to keep it in I think it's important and I think that based on Mandy's are considering what Mandy was talking about 70% is still incredibly bright. I think that we are maintaining safety levels. And I think that we're being considerate for folks who might be traveling around on bus or walking or biking based on the hours that we have set. That is my that's my perspective happy to hear from others. No one else is is ready. I'm flexible because to my understanding the lights is like it's not a rooted tree meaning that they are if they are adjustable. So I'm understanding that there's flexibility as to where. Oh, hello, as to where the dimming could could happen so like you know if it's if it is problematic somewhere then there are areas that, you know, if it's not working if it's an issue then they wouldn't have to be dimmed if I if I'm understanding and also that we have since this is such a span out with yours that we have that we have some time to to figure this out and explore it more but I think mainly that the fact that if they can be dim they can be turned up so maybe they're you know if there are certain areas where it's like clearly this is very high traffic and this this doesn't work. So those areas could be considered I don't see it as something to delay the work that that has gone in at this point, my opinion. Can you quickly confirm that Dorothy can hear and be heard before you move on. Yes, Dorothy, can you hear us. Yes, I can thank you. Okay, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. Andy, I don't know if you have something to add. My one concern I had I think Mandy has already responded answered and that is, I don't know what the cost is of the technology, but that's kind of covered in what's been provided. And as a general principle, I think that if it's not an unreasonable cost to do it that it makes sense for the reasons that Mandy stated to provide the technology so that the choice can be made because otherwise we into a whole cycle of acquisition of equipment that before we have the opportunity to to do this and for those reasons I'm comfortable with the discussion the way that it's gone. And I then offer the language that because, again, I have no basis to say whether 70% is enough or not, but I'm just adhering to what I think the tag is providing. So, but I do agree with everyone and Nika what you said that this is, there is flexibility we don't have to dim it. If you do find that this is impacting people's safety at night or they don't feel comfortable so we can always not dim it. So there are a lot of things but I think what she was offering and I'll just read that if that's okay. And then of course I can send it in writing if that's. If you are you going to make an adjustment on it because it might be helpful to send it. Yeah, I will definitely send it but is that something we want to discuss right now the language or the responses would you would it be helpful to have it sent to you. It would be helpful to have it sent and Shawnee can I clarify, do you know when tack voted on this so that we can watch the recording of the meeting and understand the discussion. March 30. So this is because I don't think we've seen this, this language before that you're referencing. I think this particular language has come from Tracy and may not be attack recommended. That's helpful to know for what that's worth I want to make sure we're not conflating not that it's not valuable I just want to make sure we're not the committee hasn't voted on it I don't want to take it as a committee recommendation. I know it's not a committee recommendation this one is coming from Tracy. Okay, I don't know if I think, as a vote with the two things that I already read specifically from tag but this one is more from her side and I think it's for our consideration, if this is something we feel. Anyway, I'll just read it and I'll send it to you also. So she said, if the section and dimming is kept and I would recommend that a the lights not be dimmed at night along major roadways in Amherst, especially those corridors with bus routes and or considerable late night pedestrian activity, and be the lights not be dimmed in the downtown and bullet centers until at least midnight if not later, but that you've already got it's later than its last bar or that that would make it earlier than what we have it as. Yeah, so that not that one but I think so just including that maybe the language that the, I think if you just included that language that it would not be dimmed along major roadway. That's because I think that there's definitely some considerations there in terms of definitions of roadways and such. Okay, so Shauna you're going to send that information off. Okay, did you have a comment. I guess I thought we had already agreed that the lights would not be dimmed on them. Bus route major roadways but maybe not maybe not because certainly bus stops are kind of important because people particularly working people have to use some of them kind of late at night and there should be enough lighting around for safety. So there was nothing in the, the proposed bylaw that had kept the lights from dimming on bus routes and major routes. There was something about downtown right but but not on bus routes. We have not made a any decision. Okay, agreement on this we have been trying to just go over it so that's what we had we're going over this today so our sponsors. We've been asking for questions and input concerns gather all of this information, and then we will revisit on June 15. So we can hopefully make a move on and move to action. So this is why we're taking every every once questions and concerns and handing them over now. Thank you. And I just have a last set of questions clarifications is that the, these are things that I do not understand at all, and I'm assuming you have spoken with DPW about these but I just want to list them out and I will send them and writing to you again, which I'm hoping that the staff can approve specifically that these are approved by the staff. And again that brings to question because I just heard that DPW is really pressed for time so I don't know how and when they will be able to look at this. But again, I just want to make sure that they are approving this list of specifications which I do not understand at all. Like number one luminaire should be selected with the lowest possible number ideally zero or one. Page five streetscape lighting shall emit no more than 100 lumens of up, up light and so forth page five light trespass, you know the point zero one foot candle and in all of those things they like specifics which I've just written down all these specifications have these been approved by DPW or DPW doesn't have an approval process for this but we have discussed this with them and they are very, they are clear on the on the definitions to my recollection. If I'm correct me if I'm wrong, there were not significant concerns short of if this is what you want us to do we will figure out how to do it, which is the answer that we often get from our very willing and able staff. That's what Gilford said to me was it's doable. If that's what the council decides. He had the one concern about the color temperature level when we had set it at 2200 and we've now moved it to 2700. Okay, so that's good to know. And then I think the last one we sort of touched upon which Paul had brought up was that it's undersea types of lighting fixtures. We will use the most efficient and effective effective types of light fixtures when replacing installing street lights. And if that was clear enough what does that mean. And I know you brought it up but I don't remember what the answer to that was, like, is that clear guided enough guidance to this to the town, in terms of making these purchases that it should be the most effective and efficient and effective. type of lighting fixture. And we just cost and all of that feature and do it. Paul might be able to answer some of that cost is actually the first thing mentioned in the list of factors of efficient and effective to be considered. So, but Paul, Paul might be able to answer better, whether the whole thing is doable. So when we looked at it, the concern was if it's if it's solely set the most efficient, we might be buying something from Switzerland or something like that's super expensive and that's not what we want to be doing. But when you, you have to balance the cost versus the efficiency. And I think I don't have it in front of you but I think that the, the cost would be economics of it was considered as well. And it does inclusive factors that shall be used to determine efficiency and effectiveness include fixture cost installation and maintenance labor manufacturer warranty energy use and cost like light quality and the fixtures life cycle cost if as long as you feel that's good. And that was all from the staff side I just wanted to make sure that each of these specific things has been supported by the staff. Thank you, Sean. I wanted to go back to the bus stops question, I think one of the things to note is that it's a bit of a Venn diagram and so I think that it'll be important for us to be clear as we look at providing lighting at regional transit bus stops and recognizing that dimming of streets. I think that dimming is of the streetscape lighting. And so looking at the, looking at the crossover of those two. I don't, when we look at the definition, you know, I don't necessarily think all of our regional transit lighting it would be covered under streetscape lighting and so I think it'll just be important for us to make sure that it is not part of that to, to, if that's what the committee would like to make sure that the lighting at bus stops isn't isn't dimmed but Mandy might also have a thought. So the second sentence is if possible not cost prohibitive all other street lights shall be dimmed to no more than 70% at 11pm. So, so there's there's a couple of options we can do we'll look at some of the language Shalini that you provided we could potentially add back in the definitions of connector and arterial roads and put them as where dimming might not occur or maybe dimming to 90% or something else. We could also put in similar language to what's above in the current policy about the town council makes decisions and can make exceptions, specifically to the dimming of parts of town, or specific corridors there's a bunch of ways we can do it to to deal with those concerns while also leaving dimming in. I also wanted to say the types of lighting fixtures there was one other thing Shalini that you didn't read in that list which was the ability to allow future dimming to replace the full fixture luminaire so that's the other spot we talk about dimming. In case it's cost prohibitive to get the dimming controls, you still might want to buy the fixture that would allow the dimming controls in the future without replacing the whole fixture, things like that. Yeah, now that makes sense. Thank you, Andy. Okay, Dorothy. I remember a conversation and I think that go for it was there. When the concern was brought up that asking for the most this the most that could end up with the most expensive. And I thought I remembered Mandy Joe saying, or maybe it was go for that they actually a light that meets those standards was in fact a decent cost not not too bad. Somebody had looked at that so I think I think Shalini is asking that that be looked at. I do have a small problem with the statement if this is what you want, we can do it because I've heard that from almost all town agencies, because I believe that is their official position that if the town council asks it. They will do it. I would want more than that from them, I would want. Yes, and we agree it's a good idea. Okay. So, obedience is nice but really not that great. I'd rather have their strong opinion their professional opinion on some of these things. And I don't know if we've had that yet. So that's kind of something I'm interested in looking at. I think that's really a question for Paul. We always seek opinion and I think that that's really, I'm not really sure how we would necessarily force that without making stuff really uncomfortable so I guess I will defer that that particular question to fall. Okay, so I'm just clarify you want staff to be disobedient, I guess. I want their professional opinion, because, you know, we don't hear our best but they're the ones that do it. Okay, yeah, I understand that but you are the policymakers and, you know, there's a lot of things that staff may disagree with the council on. And, but that's not really, you know, I understand what you're saying in terms of their professional opinion. But I can guarantee there are things that the council does that the staff thinks are not good. And, but that's not that's not really their role your role is to set the policy on certain things, whether it be, there's a million different topics that this comes up. But I think, you know, getting their professional opinion is this doable is this within range of what we can accomplish as a community. That's the question that we can ask and I think what Gilford has responded is that we can, we can do this. You know, we may have people who don't believe in climate change they may believe 100% climate change you know, that's not their role their role is to be responsive to the, to what the community wants and we've had this conversation that you know even with our police department with every department we have. Like, we, we are obedient to what the community's desires are. Okay. Thank you, Paul and Dorothy and to Anna and Mandy for sitting with us one more time with this. We may not all agree but I hope that we can agree to make sure that we need to read through this once again thoroughly we do. And we send our questions to the sponsors and come with some preparedness whichever that is to recommend or not. And that Mandy. Thank you so much for being with us if you want to stay for the mountain of announcements I'm going to do in like two minutes for June events which are packed. So I just want to be clear at your next meeting. The expectation is that the sponsors will make a motion to approve what's in front of you right and for other counselors if they would like to amend it or make an alternative motion. So I would have that in writing in advance so everybody has a chance to read it and contemplate it but the way the council will act the committee will act is by making a motion amending it and then ultimately settling on whatever you either approving it or not approving it and then communicating that back to the full council so what you're saying and because that next or the next meeting is decision time for this street like thing. Yes, so if you so, as Paul just said and thank you for that if you have an amendment or otherwise, it will be helpful and again the meeting is on the 15th I'm happy to send this reminder. And so you can send those all ahead of time so we're able to see that. That's all good to everyone. Okay. All right, so with that, we're going to put the street lights down into the 15th. So just if anyone else has another announcement or something please join in. If not, I'm going to try to get this all straight for June. So tomorrow on a please correct me 1pm. Do we have the pride proclamation is my timing and everything else all 4pm. Anything you want to add your muted love. One in 10 times. Tomorrow at one is the, the commemoration for chief Livingstone 4pm is the pride proclamation. That's right. Chief Livingstone 1pm 4pm. At 430 the chamber has invited you to sit in some chairs that they've purchased and there there's some are going to be in Cushman common so will be in South Amherst and they'll be one or two on the main common. So after the pride proclamation, if it's not raining, you can walk across and sit and they want to do some photo ops there for with the counselors has invited you to sit in some chairs is possibly the. Also, I would just like to shout that out because Paul knows that I've been asking for and fight and like, weirdly submitting resident request to see CPA for before I was on the Council for Adirondack chairs on the south Amherst common and I'm so excited about this. I saw them today and they're beautiful. Oh, good. I've achieved, I've achieved everything I could ever hope for, even though I did nothing. It was all the town in the chamber. We all enjoy them on June 11. We have race and many day and the HRC youth awards I believe this is ongoing from 10am through 4pm and that's at Mill River. On the 11th. I hope I am not skipping anything in between the 11th and the 17th, where we kick off Juneteenth weekend we have the 17th we have a Juneteenth legacy celebration that is from 10am through 4pm. On Sunday, June 18 we have the Amherst cinema will be showing a free community screaming screening of a film fences by Denzel Washington. That's at 4pm. A community discussion will follow at 630pm. The topic of both the discussion and the film is black fatherhood. On June 19 the Juneteenth at 10am from 10am to 1130am you have the middle district doing a two part children's story reading of the book lucky with Dr. Shirley Jackson Whitaker at what time people will probably be directed to go downtown to the town's Juneteenth jubilee that starts at 12pm and goes through 6pm. On the 22nd we have a the senior center is hosting a silent movie screening, and this is a, this is for a this is a private event, and this is going to be hosted by the senior center forgive me the time has just slipped my mind I will make sure to send that information to everyone. On the 23rd of June we have community safety day which is sponsored by the senior center and that's again at Miller Park. So I think those are the June events. I'm sure that I may have forgot one or two because it's a packed month and I'll send that after. Are there any other announcements that anyone would like to make. So with that, I'll send a reminder about the street lights policy and good night, and we will see you all on again on the 15th.