 This is Chuck Remton. Today, we have the extreme honor of having with us retired judge, circuit and district Sandra Sims, a leading, highly respected figure, not only in the legal community and in the black community, but in Hawaii generally by many of us who have known her for more than a few years. And Bill Harrison, our leading criminal defense attorney, sorry, no offense, and also an extremely active community contributor and supporter in many ways. We're going to talk some about what's broken in our legal system, how that impacts on race and other oppressed people's relations and positions and roles and the effects on them. Sandra, tell us a little bit about what brought you into law. Well, like many, like most of you, I'm a child of the 60s and growing up in a time when we knew that one way to make change in society was going to be through law and I was kind of excited. I was the first person in my family to go into law, but it was with the idea that somehow we'd be able to make some change and make a difference in the world and society in some place. So, that was how I got started. That's how I'm sure many of you have gotten started. And with the knowledge that once you have the law degree, it would give you the opportunity to move into different areas and make a change, make a difference. And so, here we are. Wow. In a long round. That was a long time ago, but here we are. Not that long. You were 12. And I really get that because I started doing community activism back in the Midwest in Madison, Wisconsin, kind of a progressive environment then. And I thought every time we put something together that worked for the community, a bunch of people with money and lawyers would come in and screw it up. So, I figured, okay, if you can't beat them, eat them. So, learn how they do what they do and get in there. But getting into the legal system has taught very different things. You've got to establish, respect, rapport, credibility with exactly those people. And it has to work out to be some kind of collaborative or at least cooperative venture. Bill, what about you? What brought you in? Who were your icons that you looked up to? Okay, well, you know, I graduated from Manoa in 1975. And I was an art, I was an art history major. And got my BA, went into graduate school, went to American studies at that time. Because I figured out that my BA in art was not going to feed me. So, I started to get a graduate degree. I took an ethnic studies class. And in that class, the teacher invited Effley Bailey, who was a famous attorney, to come talk to us. Effley Bailey spoke to us about the Angela Davis case, you know, the Black Panther Party Angela Davis case. And it was so fascinating. That was the first time I had thought about looking into law. Before that, it had never crossed my mind. But after his stories, and he was a great storyteller, after his story about the Angela Davis case, I was quite enthralled and decided to enroll in law school at that point in time. And it just so happened that just recently, a few years ago, I think Sandra was a part of this, Angela Davis came to town and she got involved in the mediation program at the Supreme Court with us. And I had dinner with her, myself and my wife. And it was like a full circle. Having got into it because of her and finally getting to meet her was extraordinary. Incredible. Absolutely incredible. Yeah. Wow. And at some point, we're going to come back to the hard question, the Dr. Phil question. How's that been working for you, bringing about change in the legal system? Yeah. Harder than we might have thought. Exactly. So, Bill, there was a poem that you shared with us that might be a good place to start for today. It is an excellent place to start. Actually, it is from Dr. King's speech in 1963. I have a dream. But what happened yesterday is I got an email letter from Dean Abhi Sofer, who is the former dean at the law school. And he wrote to the alumni a very poignant letter about his feelings about what's going on with this matter. And in his letter, he pointed out and reminded us of Dr. King's statement. This is what Dr. King said in 1963. Now mind you, that's 57 years ago. He said, in a sense, we've come to our nation's capital, the cash check. When the architects of our republic wrote the magnificent words of the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, they were signing a promissory note to which every American was to fall heir. This note was a promise that all men, yes, black men, as well as white men, would be guaranteed the unalienable rights of life, liberty, and a pursuit of happiness. It is obvious today that America has defaulted on this promissory note insofar as her citizens of color are concerned. Instead of honoring this sacred obligation, America has given the Negro people a bad check, a check which has come back marked insufficient funds. But we refuse to believe that the Bank of Justice is bankrupt. We refuse to believe that there are insufficient funds in the great vaults of opportunity of this nation. And so we've come to cash this check, a check that will give us upon demand the riches of freedom and the security of justice. Amazing, amazing speech that he gave. And this specific point that he points out in this passage here is what we're talking about today, is we have not been able to cash that check. And that's why we're here talking about it today. Are we farther in debt now than we were then? Yes, yes, Sandra. Yes, we are. I think what came about as in the years following Dr. King's involvement, you know, we saw some, we saw some efforts at reform. And we saw some of those things, they're sort of like more like cosmetic changes that took place. I know when I started law school, there were, and this is still going to show my age, but started law school, there were very, very, very few African American students at the law school I went to, and very, very few women. This is in the early 70s when I started. And that was just like totally phenomenal that we're just walking into this field where there was hardly any of us represented. And so that was a part of a reform, you know, so we just, you know, were kind of changing things. You had very, very few people involved in law enforcement that were that were African American or of any other color, you know, like police officers and why I grew up in Chicago. And so that's a very different scene in terms of, you know, police officers and policing. You just didn't have that many. So we had those changes take place in a lot of the cities where you had reform, you know, maybe adding more officers of color to the police forces who addressed some of those issues that came up, you know, some representation in the legal, legal field, but other fields, it wasn't changing that much. So we saw these reforms. But I think what's different now is that what's what this current movement is calling for is not just to reform and putting icing on, you know, making these changes, but really just a total restructuring. I mean, it's basically let's just start, let's just recognize the racism for what it is, that it pervaded so much of everything that we did without anyone ever wanting to acknowledge it. Acknowledge it. That's what happened. And so now I think we're just looking at, you know, I don't, you know, just got to start all over again. Just got to reach total restructuring. And I think that's what's making so much of what is happening now, you know, with the protests and even with COVID making it so very, very visible and loud is that that's what we're having to do. It's just got to, it's just got to change, totally change. So let me ask a hard, let me ask a hard question. We know that the proportions, the percentages of women and people of color in professions, in leadership positions have increased some since that time. Is that in any way commensurate with the real change you're talking about, not the cosmetic? Bill, you're shaking your head. I'll let you go. Yeah, no, not at all. And that is the problem here. That is the problem. It is. You know, we can pass laws. We can motivate folks to change practices, to include people of color into the conversation and narrative. But that, but just passing the laws and making those changes does not change the people's attitudes. And that's really what we have to deal with. You know, we had emancipation proclamation. We had, you know, all these laws, anti-discrimination laws with amendments to our Constitution, but that didn't change people. They continued the way they were going. Laws themselves cannot force people to change. It's within themselves that has to change. And really, we have to look to moving towards that direction. What can we do to change people's attitudes, to change people, how people look at one another, and how people treat one another? That's really the situation. You know, you got to remember back in the 60s, all of us are 60s babies, back in the 60s, we saw this happening. I remember, you know, being a, and I was a child then, but watching the news and, you know, you're seeing the freedom buses in the South being battered, people being burned, people, you know, in sit-ins, having water hoses shot on them and dogs released on them and police officers with batons beating people. That was, you know, 50, 60 years ago, we saw that. And now we're at this point where we're seeing the same things. And, you know, obviously, we had, we had a recent killing by a police officer, but, you know, throughout the South, there was lynchings and killings going on all the time, you know. And so what makes it different now? And we can have that discussion. And I think one of the things is a technology advancement. And we'll talk about that. But really, attitudes haven't changed. And that's really what we have to get at is the attitudes, not so much the law. Yeah. The other piece of it too is there's just so very little education, understanding about what really took place. What is at the core of the racism that's at the core of our society? I know Bill mentioned about the Emancipation Proclamation that, that free, that, you know, that ended slavery. But what ended up happening after that is that even as people, even as people of color were, free slaves were empowered, that power was immediately snatched away. And you began this whole era of, you know, the enforcement of Jim Crow laws, the, the birth of the, the Ku Klux Klan began during that time. And then you have these lynchings, lynchings, lynchings, just thousands across this country. My grandfather was a part of the great, the great migration of the 1920s that saw, as we now know, something like six million African Americans leaving the South to go to cities and stuff in the North. He moved from Georgia to Chicago. And the basis for that migration was fear, absolute fear of being killed by these rampant, rampant acts of violence and lynching that were occurring all over the South. People don't know, I mean, a lot of people just simply don't know that that occurred. And that's, that was another piece of it. So you have these institutions that at their very core began in racism. People don't want to acknowledge that that's what it is and they don't want to change it. And so then you, like Bill says, you're talking about how do you get people to change that attitude? And I'm not, that's a tough question. But I think it's helpful now in this age with the technology and the use of things like our social media and so many platforms that this information can be shared. And then so you also have this generation, this younger generation, who is really open and really, really ready to bring about change and to really see things as they are. I think that's a very helpful and hopeful piece to me. And I think it's one of the ways that things may change. There's education, of course, about that. But also, you've got as, you know, this technology is, it's got the big pluses and sometimes there's some drawbacks, but the plus is that the information is out there. And you can't unsee it. You can't unsee George Ford being murdered on, on camera. You can't unsee that and say, oh, he should have, you know, he should have done something. No, no, no, you can't. And we have so many of those instances that have occurred in the last few years. And so that's been a big part of how we're going to be seeing at least some beginnings of structural change. And I think what you're seeing also at the end of that is just this total frustration with all the things that have been occurring and all the things that have been seen. People just sort of had it, you know, it's just like, we got to do it. We got to do it now. So that's another piece of it too, to me. So let me ask you another hard question for both of you. We have right now a really, really strong growing national and the international reaction against the physical violence that we've seen. And in fact, Ben Crump was just on live streaming this morning with yet another Timothy Kaufman from 2018, but it's finally just getting the press and nothing's been done regarding the police officers involved in that death. And it was a George Floyd same way, knee on the neck suffocation. But let me ask the hard question. Is the economic violence, the social economic violence, the inhumanity and treatment violence in the workplaces, in housing, in healthcare in all those areas, is that not just as bad or demeaning or worse as the physical? Yes, absolutely. I, you know, we're going to have to discuss, you know, systemic issues here. And someone the other day said something, it was really brought this point home. The person was asked, what is systemic racism? And he came up with a definition that's perfect. And he said that systemic racism is prejudice coupled with power. We all have prejudices, right? We don't like certain things, certain issues, et cetera. But the difference here when you have racism is the person who has that prejudice has the power and that and uses that power against those who are powerless. And that's really the big issue here. So yes, it runs the gamut of not only, you know, police actions, but in every aspect of our society, we have that systemic racism going on. And really, in the judiciary and the legal system, it's rampant as well when you think about it. And you could just see it from just simple laws. In my field, you know, we have the disparity, for instance, in sentencing with regard to crack cocaine and powder cocaine. And people look at that and say, well, crack cocaine is really bad. Okay, so powder cocaine is not as bad. But if you look at it realistically, systemically, obviously the crack cocaine affects the black Hispanic community in much greater detail than it does the white community who has powder cocaine. So clearly disparity there, people would say it's just a it's illegal. It's an issue with regard to to dangers inherent in our society, we have to eradicate those dangers. But those laws were actually put together to really discriminate against a certain segment of our population. Yes, when you when you deal with that. Okay, so we have to get at the root of that systemic and we have to make this systemic change. We have to remove the power base from the people who are have those prejudices, so that they cannot use those to, in effect, place them near the neck of other people. So the question that that brings up, Bill is, is our legal system and I'm not talking about the people, particular judges who may be good people of good character, good conscience, as individuals is our legal system for the oppressed, a tilted tainted playing field, nowhere near level. Absolutely. And you know, there was a recent report done about prison system to see what our ethnic and racial make mixes in the prison in Hawaii. Hawaii has a high incarceration rate. I think the last rate, I think we had something in the neighborhood about 7,000 people in our prisons. And let me just give you some of the numbers that came out of that. It's just shocking the numbers that came out of that. All right, so Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders, there were 1,615 of those incarcerated. American Indian, Alaskan Natives, 624. Blacks, 1,032. Hispanic, 415. Whites, 412. Now you compare the percentage of population of those folks in our state. What is the percentage of Native Hawaiians in our state? What is the percentage of blacks in our state? They made up one third, almost one third of the population of our prisons, those two ethnic groups. Now that's clear. I mean, those are statistics that show you that there is this systemic racism. How does that happen? How do you have the vast majority of your population be people of color when the vast majority of your society are other people? And it's clear that that's a result of this idea is becoming institutionalized. And police officers, when they go out and they do their jobs automatically, their prejudices are always going to be there. But again, they have the power. And that's a dangerous combination. If you think about it, what is the police officer? The police officer is the only one on the street, anyone in our society that can take your liberty away on the street and can shoot you and kill you on the streets. Judges can't take your liberty away on the streets. They can't walk up to you and have you and arrest you right there. They can't shoot you right there. Maybe in some places in Texas in the South they can, but we don't see that. The only people can do that are police officers. And so we need to get at the root of what we're talking about here. And that is this idea of this power on top of this prejudice and getting rid of it because it's going to fill you down in every segment of our society. And clearly you can see it in our prison system. So what I think I'm hearing, and let me ask you to make it clearer for us, is is the other side of that disproportionate excessive imprisonment, incarceration coin, that the forces funded and serving the power elite know that they can do that with impunity. They can get away with that. That's right. They can get away with it. But also there is this implicit bias that they have that everybody has to recognize that we all have it. No one walks this earth without any implicit bias. But when they're in a position of power, that becomes a dangerous thing because that bias then filters into what they make the decision making. And that's really the danger here. And yes, absolutely. The answer to your question is yes. It's there. And you also see it in terms of who gets sentenced and how they are sentenced as well. Because like I said, the implicit bias is definitely going to kind of pop in there, whether you want to acknowledge it as a judge or not. It is there. And so when you're looking at folks that are standing coming before you and their circumstances and their color, their racial identity is so very, very vastly different from yours. Their experiences, their life experiences are so vastly different from yours. It's difficult to put them in that light that says, I can give you the benefit of the doubt and think that, okay, imprisonment may not be necessary. I recall a particular example of a similar kind of thing where there was this two gentlemen who were being sentenced for some fairly serious offenses. And of course, you have their precidence report that shows what their background is. One had come from another country, Russia, I think it was. And then the other African-American defendant had come from this family who was like very, very strong and prominent. And he had just sort of gotten off the track, so to speak, of being involved in this. I don't need to get into details, but it was not pleasant. But it was also not a part of his background. It was not a part of his upbringing. It was not a part of the world in which he grew up. And as an African-American female, and as a mother, and his parents were actually there sentencing, and I saw what they had. I knew that. I said, this is not just some guy rolling off the street here. He's actually had some very, very different, some other challenges that came at him that got him into a situation. So I look at that differently. And I saw him as this individual who had just gotten off track. I see the parents sitting here who were like, I don't know what happened. This is not who he is. And I asked him that. And he said, no, it really wasn't. And so, yeah, he ended up being sentenced. But it was with that understanding that that was not necessary to see him as just some black dude that's involved in crime. And therefore, we have no reason to see him differently than anyone else. So that was part of it. And I think that's an important piece when you're looking at sentencing is how you're going to perceive that person based on your experiences. That's why a diverse judiciary is absolutely necessary for a complete total functioning of our for a better functioning of our justice criminal justice system. You have to have some different perspectives, you know, looking at people who come before you from these, you know, in these various situations, you absolutely have to have it. So yeah, it's as one way of addressing it is looking at, you know, making certain that you have this diversity, but you're right. If you're in a pressed minority, black, Micronesian, whatever, you're not going to get a second chance in that kind of system. Exactly. Sondra, you brought with you today something from Danielle, we've got about three minutes left. Okay. Can you share with us what Danielle Conway, who was here for years? Yes, I am. Yesterday, I wonderful lady. Danielle Conway was a she was a professor at the University of Hawaii, a law school for many, many years. And she is now the dean of the law school at Penn State University. And a couple of days ago, she wrote a letter to the Penn State legal law school community and the Penn State community. And it was so moving and touching. And I had to share it with she shared it. And I had to tell her it was just it touched my heart. So Danielle as the mini, I should call it Professor Conway now is is is a veteran as well as the daughter of a police officer as well as having a successful career in law and Dean. And she wrote this from the perspective of not just as a as a black woman who has held all of these roles and as a parent as well. And I'll just I will disclose to you what I am experiencing as a black woman living through a pandemic that is killing our brothers and sisters. And yes, disproportionately killing our black brothers and sisters, I will disclose to you that I experiencing as a wife to an African man and mother to a black son fighting the paralysis that handcuffs me when they leave my sight. I am exasperated, disconsolate and infuriated by seemingly never ending acts of covert and overt racism, as well as near impenetrable institutions in American society that build their foundations on the degradation of black bodies and psyches. Racism is an incessant malady and a scars to all of humanity in this way, not one of us is safe. But she's a lawyer and comes from a tradition of law like we do. All of this said, she goes on all of this said I stand on the right side of justice knowing who I am and from where I come. I stand on the shoulders of my ancestors who are also your ancestors, the Emmett Till's, the Stephen Bicoles, the Polly Murray's, the Frederick Douglass's, the Ida B Wells and so on. I stand with allies who use their privilege to place a human shield between justice and injustice. I'm going to just skip through some. I will, we have the power to stop killing black people. We have the power to stop weaponizing white privilege against black people. We have the power to protect black mothers from the constant assaults on their psyches that come from knowing their black son's bodies can be snatched from their arms. We have the power to love one another, to respect one another, and to be decent to one another. We now need the will. And she closes that I will remain always in service to you, my country, and to the rule of law. I just thought that was just thank you, Daniel. That's awesome. Thank you. Thank you. So powerful. I will send the coffee to Dean Conway, Dean Seifer. Thank you all from the heart. Yes, you speak to all of us. Thank you, Chuck, for this narrative. Thank you. Thanks, Chuck. And thanks, Bruce. Good seeing you all again. Thank you all. Good seeing you as well. Take good care. Aloha.