 47. 47, thank you. 547. Now, I don't have a copy of the agenda in front of me. The agenda just says review the service. So, welcome, everyone who is here. I think, will we, how does this rate with your expectations of how many people would be here? I didn't know. I expected committee members, but I also know that as we get closer and closer to the end of school, people get busy. Also, I don't know how well everybody else is informed, but I only got notice of it yesterday. That's the same thing. To say we review it, I think it's a misnomer because we, I don't think any of us had a chance to review it. The data just came out yesterday. So, can we review and talk about it? I don't think it should be the purpose of the screen because I don't think they'll include enough. Somebody posted it on Facebook as an event, like Chilcarita, or somebody posted it on Facebook yesterday, and that's when I first got away that there would be a meeting. Can I just go to your point? We have, over the committee, we do it. Don't we? We have three. Yeah, you have a committee of six, so you're at 50%. So technically, you don't have to even have a quorum. You can still have a discussion. You're not going to take any action. Moving right along, introductions of attendees. Dave, do you want to start? Dave Lawrence, middle six. Christy George, East Montpelier, parent and parent educator. Lauren Quilt, she's house and parent. Good morning, Ben, East Montpelier, board member and parent. Chris B. Bay, parent, middle six, board member. Bill Trumbull, superintendent of schools. Wendy Moore, parent, teacher. And Scott Thompson, parent and board member, U32, from Calis. So everybody, glad you're here, those of you who are here. And if anybody who wanted to be here and can't because they weren't able to make it, to lack of advance notice, I apologize for that. Recap of previous meetings. I think all of us have been at the previous meetings, yes? Yes. Most of them. Does anybody have any questions about anything that happened before that need to go over? Okay. There are minutes from the public forum meeting of, where it was, April 23rd. But we're not called upon to approve those minutes, just so that you know that they exist. And I assume... Wait, what if you had a quorum? If we had a quorum, we could approve that. They're posted, Bill? Yeah. They're on the UCSU website in case anybody wants to check them. And then, okay, the one item is just to talk about the survey and what the survey means to you. And what you think it means for this effort. And how you might, you know, pitch your advice to the group going forward. I have one question that's for probably you, Bill. The data is not disaggregated between the elementary and U32, either parent groups or student groups. Is that possible? Well, I can cross-tab all of these reports by having people answer. The data, at least in my mind, is much less meaningful without that understanding of the source. I can't, I can't affirm much from this because I don't know who is talking. Yep. The elementary schools... Yeah. ...quit all of these just right, but which 40%? Yeah. So with the, with the survey, with all those survey tools, whether it's Google or a survey, why can't you be still the cross-tab report? Because it's very annoying to answer this way. And this question, how's it, how's it in the end? Because I don't have, but frankly the helpful information here is the confidence in the graph. That's a good point, yeah. Do you guys, obviously you guys know I'm not for the time change. How do you guys feel about what your, I know it's not totally separated out, but what information do you guys have here? How do you guys feel about what you're seeing? Anybody? It's, it's, it's, it's close. You know, the preference does seem to be to keep things the way they are. Right. By slight amount. Right. I'm trying to understand, I think in one graph, but over then, and it kind of surprised me in that respect. And it seemed like the, even the U32 students would prefer to keep things pretty much the way they were. But again, not an overwhelming balance of forthchanging. I think, at least from the graphs that I'm going to read through the comments. So that's what I was asking before, whether the comments match with graphs, too. Because graphs surprised me when I, when I first saw them. And then we come up with the question of, do we follow the science, which is pretty overwhelming the other way, or, or through the positive, you know, to do what our community wants, without the science, what the science says is better for kids. So that's where I think that is an interesting question. So the dilemma. Yeah. So as a parent, I almost feel you don't represent the community. You're going to have a, a large response to that. And I almost say at this point, do you guys even continue as a committee to try to change it at this point? Or do you look at it down the road after perhaps Essex and see what theirs is like? Like, is there a reason still to have this committee going if the community is, for the most part, saying we're happy the way it is? Well, it's, again, it's closely split. I wouldn't say, I don't think it's overwhelmingly happy with, you know, but it is a majority. I would say, based on the graphs, there's a majority in favor of keeping the way it is. Correct. I agree with that. So with that, and maybe you want to look at the data more closely as far as schools, elementary school versus U32. But if the community is telling you, if anyone would analyze, perhaps we need to analyze the separateness. I don't see how you guys can go forward and say just because the science says that this is better, your community is saying we want to keep it the same as it is. How do you go, as elected school board members from your community, and go against the community as my question? That's a fair question. I think the idea of using just in science and science is a very, very slippery slope. Well, there were pros and cons in science also to not changing the circumstance. So you could get into the science and it could be this, why is your opinion, because you found the scientific study more important than what your community as a whole is telling you? Well, I'd say not as a board member that it's not necessarily saying that the opinion is more important, but that it's still worth investigating in part because of recognizing the inertia and the fact that these are really, really close. Like, when you look at how many people think this is just right, okay, it's still not, it's a plurality, but it's still not even half as many people. And... Are you at the second one? Yeah. What you're saying, it's just right. Right. That's some say no opinion, which... The next majority is saying it's too early. Right. Which means that they would want it later. So what's going on? On the, this is a student survey, which just won't have to be on top. But I'm not going into detail on that, but I think you regret it. But, you know, I think overall it's not a question of, you know, trying to grant this down people's throats but still investigating, you know, because there are, of course, many times where a minority works for change, that the actuality is for the better. And I'm not necessarily saying this definitely is. It is better, right? I understand. But still investigating it is... Would anyone who hasn't spoken yet like to say something? I think that for me as a parent, in my situation, I need to know if we are going to continue with this discussion and know early enough if it is changed because I may be looking at having to pull my son out of the school and go somewhere else or come up with other, you know, choices because quite honestly I don't think it's fair that I should have to put my job after spending close to 13 years at home with him just so that I can get him to and from school. And I think a big part of this decision is going to affect the working people. And, you know, I think we need to think about that. Yeah. If I might just sort of, what Bill was saying earlier about going slow, I think that makes a lot of sense and taking maybe a pause to absorb a lot of what is in here. I was, I just have to say to those of you who participated in setting up this survey, I actually found this one of the most richly rewarding, I don't know, sets of information that I've seen in a long time about our schools, particularly about U32. And I just learned a ton. And they're part of what makes it difficult. And this is why I was telling you, Chris, that, you know, although it aligns with the graphs, there's so much more dimensionality to it. Everybody comes into it with sort of an assumption about what changing the time means. And, but what was great about that is that it uncovered all these different problems that people would have with the change. Or problems that they have right now. And there are so many interesting insights that are brought out, and particularly in the comments. The comments are so all over the place, but that's what makes them, I think, really valuable. However, it also makes them really hard to work with. I think, though, if the committee and sort of friends of the committee who are willing to, you know, to kind of keep us company on this and keep us from, you know, getting to maybe letting our own inclinations run away with us, if you're willing to kind of just look at all this and try to sort out what the problems are. Because there's stuff in here that, even that might not even be pertinent to the narrow issue of school start times, but which are clearly important to the survey respondents. And changing school start times, it's driven primarily by, you know, this idea is driven primarily by the science that the public health professionals are giving us. But if we can work with it in order to solve problems, to solve real people's problems, real people's real problems at the same time, then that would be, I think, if it's going to work, then it has to work in that way. If it just creates problems for people, or, you know, maybe solves one problem and creates five, then there's a good point. So I want to say, one of the things that we talked about the executive committee last night was the number of things that the boards wanted to do. And one of the things that I use as my benchmark is work that was been done by John Hattie, who writes a book with me, you can see how it's all dog-eared for me. It's not that dog-eared, it doesn't used to be. But looking at what? Everything, there's many things we can do in education that will improve student learning. There's very few things that don't, that actually inhibits student learning. One of them is retention of students. There are maybe five or eight things that they've found in international studies and national studies that will actually stop the learning process. And putting them back a year? Yeah, retention is holding them back. So that's it. It's one of the worst things. But there's what's called an average growth rate or a mean growth rate for students. So it's not looking at what advances learning, because most things we do will advance learning. It's what advances learning the most. And so for the leadership team in Washington Central, which is the principals and central office administrators, that's what we really look at for where we're going to sink our resources into. I'm a believer of the science. For me, it's I'm getting to a place and so I said to the executive committee last night, I'm having to have to take priorities. So if I'm going to use that, I'm going to use that for my judgment as a superintendent is what the research and all the work we need to do. So that's where I was saying. The survey confirmed what I've been being told. I don't believe there's a lot of work inside the school system to go forward. And there's a lot of time to do that. But when I look at whether the other mission and the student learning outcomes of the board has given us, I've got to put that work up in front. And we don't have enough time to get that done. That was part of my report last night. So I'm not saying to stop what I'm telling you is I've got to, as your superintendent, I've got to start looking at priorities because of limited resources and the limited resources, the amount of time to have all these discussions. And that's the place I'm at. It doesn't mean not to do it. It's just that I'm having to make some tough choices. Yeah, I just like to look at it from the perspective of a parent and a science teacher. And it's 20 years of sleep research that has prompted the American Academy of Pediatrics. Like this is what's best for kids, for their health, for their learning, for their future. I mean, they will go so far as to say, they sent a letter to every single school in the country. And if doctors, like pediatricians, if your pediatrician said, you know what, this is a vitamin your kid could take that could help your kid's future. Or these are vaccines that are recommended to help your kid stay healthy. And one of the number one things we can do that we're not doing for our kids is to allow them to get more sleep. I mean, just looking at the statistics for high schools that shifted their start times, the number of accidents of teenagers from 16 to 18 went down by 25%. That's more than a seatbelt law. I mean, that alone, that's just them driving to school. Not to mention their learning. For every half hour of learning, they saw an increase in grades by like a half a grade. They can document this. If they're getting more sleep, the number of kids that graduate, that go to college, and they can follow this. The research is unbelievable of what it does to the future of our kids. And I realize there's a lot of obstacles to overcome, but I just feel like throwing it away when I think there's so much at stake. It's the health of our children. It's the well-being of our children. I know as parents, we want to do what's best for them. And to just throw it all away, and I realize there's a lot of obstacles we have to get around, but it just makes me really sad. I know my daughter's coming here next year, and she's in sixth grade right now at Rummy, and she's allowed to sleep until eight, and she sleeps. And I've already seen her circadian rhythm shift, and we're not into electronics. Electronics are done if they have it half an hour a day, done by seven. Her circadian rhythm has shifted. She's 12 now. She can't get to sleep. They're in bed by 8.30. They have to be in bed by 8.30, because I'm just no sleep. And she just can't fall asleep. I'm seeing a change. But she sleeps until eight in the morning. And I know next year I'm going to have to wake her up by shaking her at six. And I know what that does to the body and to the brain and how the brain functions and how the brain learns. There's so much research on that. That book that I brought in just will blow your mind if you read it. And the whole last chapter is, what are we doing to our kids to their futures? I just don't want to throw that all away, because it's really important. I mean, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends this for the well-being of our children. And I think that says a lot, because we listen to doctors and we listen to scientists on other things like that, you know, that are for our kids. And I don't want to forget that this is about the well-being of our kids. I just don't want to throw that away. It's really important. Yeah, don't worry. I don't think anyone's... I think both of your comments, for me, there's a pretty clear line that the science is very clear. And we don't have time to do this right now. And so, in my mind, and I tend to be the eternal office, you know, I'll finish this thought and I'll put it off for the other piece. In my mind, what we've heard is... We've heard that there's a fair amount of inertia. I think that's clear. We know that it's not science-based inertia. In terms of the simple, the oversimplified version of it. We have done what we actually set out to do with this survey. In my mind, which is to uncover all of the objections so that we can take, and this is where the opportunity and your two comments comes in, we can take the time to engage the community, figure out collaboratively whether these objections can be addressed and to what degree. And, you know, part of the problem, and part of the sort of unspoken problem in the survey is, and I heard this from a handful of different folks who took the survey, and the theme kept coming up that everybody has jumped to an exclusion about what it is that we're talking about here. Some people think we are moving start time by an hour later. Some people think we're moving by half an hour. Some people think we're only doing it at the elementary schools. And what's become clear to me is that there's a tremendous amount of misinformation out there. People have sort of jumped to the conclusions that they've jumped to about what it is that's going on without understanding that what we're really doing is what we did, which is gathering the information and the objections. So, in that sort of, you know, one breadcrumbe at a time methodology, we've got the information now. And I think the reality is that we have to take the time to reflect on it. We can't do it fast, even if we wanted to. And I think it would be advisable to do that. So, we have been given the luxury of time. I would caution you about using scientific research that it's clear cut. Because I can tell you the school nurses have come to me with several articles counteracting the science. So, is it like the climate change thing where there's like 2% versus 98%? I can't tell you that I haven't gone out and done the research. I've read the book that you've read. I know the book. I know the research, that research. But I just want to caution you. What is happening is exactly what we've been said. People are taking things, whether it comes out of Time's Argus or out of our minutes and saying, you guys have already made a decision. And so, to be really clear about what we're trying to gather, information, there have been, and this is why there's some concern amongst this app. And I get it. And I actually support their concern in saying, now wait a minute, where's our point for our voice? And I say, we'll take the survey. And the survey gave you a voice, gave them a voice, which I think, at least when I read it, it's pretty clear. And so, I think that what I'm cautioning you on is, for me, it's the amount, as your superintendent, thinking about the goals and objectives the boards have set us to, to say, okay, that's the goals and the objectives. I'm sorry, I sound like I broke the record, but it's going back to that. These are the resources we have. If you'd like to get more resources so we can move more things, we could do that. But I need direction from the board to say, we want, you know, the priority discussion. And anyone who's a board member around the table certainly said that many times about, we've got to kind of pick about what our, what our priorities are. In terms of what, would you mean my private word? Because we only have, we have a lot, so to, to do this work, we would need lots of engagement time with the staff. So do I put all- It's because you don't have time. Time to work with the staff to have the discussions, to have the, to have, to look at the information, to gather people together. So that resources, and then who's going to design all that? Well, it's great to have a committee. And all of you know that I mean this as no disrespect, but you're volunteer board members. So usually that means there's support from someone in administration to make sure it actually comes off. And I'm not saying like a principal or an assistant, but myself, it's usually sometimes an administrative assistant to put everything together. And that usually gets bigger than what we thought of. So I want to just be the realist in the room to say, we can do that, but we can only do so much. And so I'm direction from the board, if you say this is a priori over some of the other things we've talked about doing, or we are doing, I need to know that. And, you know, we're right now building our whole professional development calendar for next year. So, and the principals have that pretty well built out, but to say, you know, they can take, you know, okay, we're going to move this to do something else. And so those are the things that, those are the types of conversations that need to happen. And Christy and I have talked about this because we were hearing it clearly from the staff here, of like, don't be going forward. I have two emails that I got today about why didn't you get us there tonight and give us time to do that. And I said back to them, by the way, the subcommittee works on open meeting law, so I can't discuss with them online a topic until they're all in a meeting together to have the discussion about having a meeting with you. It's crazy, but it's open meeting law. It's the way it works in Vermont. But if it's an open meeting, couldn't it come anyway? They could. They could. But it's, you know, it's that piece of, you know, we've got to build stuff together. It's just, it's one of the unfortunate, or fortunate, however you look at it, that's the way open meeting law works in Vermont. So are you saying you'll stay with us till next year? No, I'm trying not to understand that. No, what I'm saying is, well, I'm saying this group should look at this information and say, what does it say? Some community that's here from the board has to say to the SU board, the SU board's talking about goals next Wednesday. My caution in that was, don't be putting a lot of extra goals on us because you can, but just realize the more things you put on, the less depth that gets done with anything. So what I'm saying is, if you, depending on where you want to go as a subcommittee, I'm going to be looking to the SU board to say, what are our goals and what are we doing? What are the priorities in doing it? It's not saying, it's saying that we're going to have, we have work with student learning, we have work with governance, and we have work with community engagement, or three of the goals on there, probably coming, which is around inclusion and diversity. That is evident on the list right now, along with meeting all the student learning outcomes piece in the work we've been doing for proficiencies. So that's my role to say, I get it, I get we want to do all this, these are the resources, how do you want to use them? Should we pause for station identification at this point and just brief Karen in on what, sort of what happened while she was taking care of our God's creatures, green and small. And please jump in if I get anything wrong. Okay, the substance is basically the survey of course. I think some of those of us who were more inclined to pursue the start time change were, I think it's fair to say, surprised by the results, the hesitation in the survey results. Those who are not in favor of this, I think we're less surprised by it. And Bill has also mentioned that a group of teachers, 20, did you say? It's about that, it's about 20, are also hesitant about this idea and about proceeding with a start time change and want to be part of any discussion. My own, I was, despite my personal surprise, I found the comments extremely rich and interesting and a validation of our approach, I think, which nobody seems so far to really believe that we, as Ruben was saying, that we actually are collecting information before having made the decision. We're not trying to railroad anything down anybody's roads. But we're trying to find out where people stand in order to be able to make a decision and to see what we can put together first and if that flies or if it doesn't. So anyway, is that fair assessment? Bill, I think quite rightly, has talked about the advantages of maybe taking stock, going slow for the time being. Bill is also underscoring the priority crunch that both the leadership team and the boards are facing with everything else that's on their place. What I would be prepared to do is to try to sift through these, basically spend the summer trying to get what there is to be gotten out of the survey information. And with the idea that we can't just, it's not just a matter of changing start times, period. There's so much else that feeds into it from extracurriculars to childcare to transportation to parents work schedules to students' own habits of electronics use and homework is a big one. It just goes on and on. So I think we definitely need to process this before we do anything else or proceed with anything. I've got the letter if I can read that. This may be a little bit different than the actual one you received, Karen, because it's a version earlier, but I just want to find it quickly. It's an open letter to this board. We're extremely concerned about how quickly this school start time conversation in Washington Central is moving. We are concerned about the pressure to develop and move forward on a plan without fully considering the nuances of the situation and gathering information from all stakeholders. We believe any legitimate process will intentionally seek answers to questions about equity and impact before deciding on a solution. We believe any legitimate process must make sincere concentrated efforts to reach out to a variety of stakeholders. We believe a successful process will bring the whole community along. Specifically, we'd like answers to the fallen questions before any decisions are finalized. One of the specific proposals for new start times and their costs and benefits will students who participate in co-curricular activities miss more academic time with a later start time? What will the impact be on students who need to have an after school job? How will co-curricular change and what impact will the potential changes have? Would there still be a late class enablin student to participate in co-curricular activities? If co-curriculars would occur before school, will significant number of students need to arrive at school earlier than they currently do? How many families rely on older children to care for younger siblings? How do specific plans impact and address the needs for these families? What will the impact be on early dismissal days and teacher professional development time? How will the committee ensure the statistically valid validity of any survey and how will the information be shared? We believe this process should be slowed down to better involve more stakeholders and more thorough thoughtful reflection. I think that was pretty much along the lines of what was there. These were a lot of concerns that we brought up at the April 23 meeting. I don't disagree with any of that. I think it's perfectly reasonable. I think it's very reasonable. I think it's also points to the fact that any change for the whole misinformation thing. The task and the mission or the objective for the committee was to do what we're doing and do the best we can to gather data, gather information and come back and submit a report to the full board. To submit a report. That's not implement a change. So a letter like that assumes that there's a change coming down the way and so that is unfortunate. I was not surprised by any of the results and I actually also see it as an opportunity because when you look at it, what I see is you have half the community picked their elementary school should be at 8 or 830 when currently they start at 9. So half of them picked a different time. So it's really pretty much half and half in a lot of ways with what people, when you put together too late, too early or just right, they're almost equal. Half the people said too late, too early, half said just right. Like when you really look at it it's a community where half the people are in cooks are in favor of change and half are like this is fine, it's working just as it is and so you have the opportunity to say well, then what are the concerns? And the concerns are very well documented I think in the comments and in the rankings and that's where, yeah, we have to decide, you almost need feasibility study type things. People need to see the people who, if nothing's going to change, fine. If there's going to be a proposed change for a couple years from now people need to see the nuts and bolts. They need a model. They need a model of the buses could do A or B. After school activities for sports could have this or this change to make it work. They need models, they need to see and that's because when you read the comments it all boils down to how does it impact me and my family when you take something global like this and you have people I think about what it impacts for me and my kids and my family more than I think about how it impacts yours or yours or my neighbors I don't care about you guys as much as me. I mean it's just true and so it's not that I don't care but that I'm going to want to know and have my solution fixed if I'm going to be comfortable with things the same way it is. I will say anything in my life is built around the times my kids start and stop school already and that was arbitrarily put on me when I signed them up for school so if it was changed I'd have to arrange my life around it and it'd either suck or be good or bad or if you change districts Yes, yes and I will say I was contacted by a Montpelier high school student who's trying to leave the charge for getting Montpelier to start time to leave as well so go for it just a risk that I take no problem when we don't have specifics then it's totally natural to go through the worst case scenario but we haven't given specifics so in the absence of specifics I'm going to go low and and it could We talked about trying to get specific time but the rest of the committee didn't want to do that We're not there yet because we don't know again this goes back to really dial down and methodical about how we do this and this is what I think is probably the right word to use where we've gathered the information I think we should all signs point to slow down right careful about because Bill mentioned the nurses finding other documentation saying that that's not true so all signs all signs all signs all signs I apologize so I think we need to slow down there's a lot of data in here I think we can easily take the summer and parse it out and reflect on it and I think see what does this mean and in the fall if we come back together we can decide what we do from there and is there work over the summer? I don't know but we I think capacity by resources by by all of the other things that are at play trying to get something done for the next school year would be suicidal just immediately tanked that was already off the table anyways it wasn't actually for the year after so I think the real I think for me the takeaway from this data is that we're very mindful and very methodical about how we proceed right we want to adjust this data that we've gotten back we want the time to investigate the counter science right if we investigate the counter science and it comes back to this garbage then we've investigated it and we can say it's garbage if we investigate it and it's valid then then right that's a different conclusion that you can draw but all of those explorations take time the time also gives us some ability to find out what Essex is experience with it in the meantime we'll have somebody piloting this somewhere else they're moving they're aren't they start currently at 7.30 they do that's earlier than us they're changing to 8 I talked to Beth Codd last week and she said they're not moving their high school they're moving the KAs they're moving them later I have to get the exact I thought you know it was just last Thursday when I talked to her and she said hey we're both going to be there let's talk they're moving their times but they're not moving their high school I thought that was high school high school was off so two quick comments I wanted to add earlier for one was Bill pointed out that we have a lot of information here about what people's objections are and of course the point is not to take the objections and say but to find out okay well how can we solve this particular problem right and so that is also it takes some time to think about and then the other about the climate change one of the problems with the science even though I'm in favor of the science is it's epidemiology and epidemiology has giant swiss cheese holes so you can throw so much stuff through there are a lot of claims that are made that I think are a lot harder to support solely because of the way that the science is done versus tracking straight up statistics climate science has a better scientific foundation for it than the epidemiology around this does so I think we find legitimate complaints and we have to look at them on the preponderance it just surprised me the American Academy of Pediatrics would put something out to every school in the country if it's not sound science I'm surprised by some things like that as well and I won't go down a rat hold on that there have occasionally been professional bodies that have recommended things that turn out to not be I mean I went to I went to a presentation on science down in Massachusetts on May 11 the camera was going to be able to make it and you can put besides American Pediatrics Association you can put a long list of medical and international that have the stand up on the science of delaying start time but the clear message was it wasn't about the science it's the it's the education and getting people I'll tell you to see a new port jumped last year the board on June of a year ago from this June so that was in 2017 you and I were changing all the start times that were around okay and they they used the public transit to move the students around the city of Newport Brown they had so much pushback that this year they're going right back and they start their high school at 7.15 I was shocked that they had pushback when they made the decision by Fiat so what that told me and I talked to the superintendent at this and the school starts later folks are in there doing the research on what's happening and a case study of it and she said it was exactly what you said David it's because the board just decided to do it on a whim and there wasn't the pre-work and time so that's why I come back to what I said earlier I'm not saying it as a diversion tactic I'm saying it's a priority so what do we want as an SU board our priorities and where are we going to put our resources behind it because if this is something we're going to do I'm just saying it's going to take a lot of effort it doesn't mean it won't happen and it can't happen I just want to be realistic about the amount of resources that we need to throw in it and as you asked me it's really about time to have those discussions but we don't have unlimited time with staff unfortunately and they shouldn't because they work hard as it is so we should be able to say when we have those two hour professional every Wednesday we're pretty I know the leadership team in IA are pretty we're very deliberate with how we use that it's probably the best way any results from the changes? with any measurable changes? nothing really they just they were dealing so much with the angst the turmoil they couldn't even get to that goes back to listening to the community the board makes the decision based on what the committee feels is accurate you're going to get that backlash and there's a little bit of that tension between like as Wendy says this is the biggest bang then that's one thing to look at but it's in tension with it might also be the highest cost in terms of social capital in terms of not just financial resources but of all the things that go into what make our schools happy and so if you're prioritizing other things that are getting incremental changes but for less angst so this will go with my theory of government this is the place where the board needs to wait because the board has got to take that position we're the representative of the community to say okay so Bill you're telling us this is the resources you've given, you know as the board said these are the priorities how do we want to where do we want to put our efforts so this kind of brings us to the question what do we tell the supervisor union board at the next meeting when we're supposed to report that's June 6th, wonderful that was actually my question for you and I'm really sorry about Tyler and surgery last weekend but my question is what is next weeks meeting is it just telling them what you've done so far or what is going to happen in next weeks meeting I think it's a report of what's been done so far what's been gathered and I think the committee has to decide what we would recommend which would be would we recommend the committee not be we can either recommend the committee be sunset and the board decide based on what we give them we could decide that we want the committee to have another certain period of time to do more work and analyze this more delay our report basically just give an interim report of what's been done so far before we come up with clear recommendations and say back in the fall come forward with a report that recommends basically to me it's probably recommending that the board decide if pursuing potentially changing the school times and our district is a priority that's the first decision and if they say yes it is then what we think needs to happen if they decide it's a priority and we think that there needs to be to me there needs to be resources allocated to where it is volunteers that have been on this committee and volunteer parents who've come to the forums and participated and people who did the surveys but have people who can do a feasibility model of bus cost after I know that they can pull reports and they can find out how basically from the schools pretty easily who has younger siblings and then reach out directly to those people and say how much do you rely on the older kid for day care which kids have jobs how much it would have changed and so get those answers to the questions that you see in here same thing with sports my son's playing middle school sports and I think it's absolutely ridiculous for that he could be on a bus for two and a half hours to go to a sporting event I don't care how small our state is it's not worth a seventh grader going that far and then two and a half hours back I mean, no I think it's looking into should we have our kids go that far for a sporting event where is that going to get in 20 years what benefit is he going to get from that not much that's a difference though I'm sorry are you going to present this data as it is to me, oh this would be in the report yes, this is to share the report before you give this because I'm sure that it's going to be biased in one direction or the other I think we're reporting I don't think we're presenting any report with conclusions because have you read through all this stuff yet? I don't think anybody has really read through it to be able to parse it out it would be a disservice I think you are charged to say based on our survey and our analysis that no one did to the report we're not making any recommendations because I don't think we have this information I could absolutely say the responses are mixed that's a true statement are you going to go to the board then and propose that you have more time on this to me is that kind of what you're already into if they see they want to kill it they can kill it I know that I would be in favor of slowing down, trying to digest this and then having an interim report saying this is what we've done and recommending keeping the subcommittee alive in order to just see if we can make something of this but proceeding with all due care and deliberation one thing that I said to the association and read you that letter because you and I talked about that you need to be discussed tonight was that there would be a chance when the staff can be invited with three or four weeks of notice of that's not what tonight is for we might be able to say okay that's part of the information gathering we need to do well and for me it's not the biggest thing I've gotten out of having what this is the fifth or sixth evening of my life that I've dedicated to us trying to give people to come to is we gotta go to them we gotta go to each of the small school board meetings and when you have all the U32 school administrators and teachers together maybe four days before school starts for a huge meeting we need to be there and having a discussion where they already are because they live elsewhere and coming here later I mean if we really want it to be engagement with people we're gonna have to go to them I think before we even considered doing that though have a lot of communication because at the end of the day as you rightly pointed out we are representatives of the community I mean those of us who are two board members are and so democracy is slow and it's messy and in order to have a chance at having the outcome that my own personal this is my own personal office and I swear about that all the way through in order to have a chance at being successful there's and we knew this at the beginning there's a big educational component and there are legitimate concerns that have to be addressed and so in my mind the report out to the full board is is that there are a lot of very legitimate concerns there's a lot of inertia I guess my concern to the school board members that are here that you cannot be biased you have to be objective I mean you have to be able to look at everything from both sides you can't take what you want and put it out as what the whole community wants you've got to factor in all those facts from everybody and it's just your opinion that you feel this is right and you want to push forward to that then you're doing the misjustice as a school board member I agree I'm biased because to your point of taking all the information you're weighing balancing the different sources of information and the quality of the information as well I mean you kind of get back to climate science debate where someone can say anything that oh it's not real which is scientifically this group but you're weighing those different factors and you're right about getting all the information so I think I would hope that our next step in the report to the board is that we need more time because there's not more information out there to consider and also there's probably responses in this survey where some tweaks can probably be made that would satisfy a constituent group that's not high school maybe not changing high school time but then you get into the cost factor of the whole process it's kind of balancing all of that information right I agree so is what you're going to go to the board with what you mean in some kind of reading minutes from here and would we see that before next week's meeting I'm guessing in oral report I think the board will have copies of the survey materials but end to spend will be in oral report to the board as a whole I was going to ask you what time it's at six but it's really at the end I'm just going to mourn it and this is not to heavy go there but the board has they have about four or five really heavy topics that we know of we also have an act 46 report that's probably coming out tomorrow where the state's going with act 46 so we're actually putting on the agenda that the SU board might be lengthened because people may want to talk about that we think Scott why can't the board just receive this information and come to their own conclusion why do you need to give it an oral report because they've asked for this group to give it an oral report and that's how we do it I just hope it's we're not going to that's all there's nothing between there's no I can assure you there's not any boat did I misunderstand you that essentially just what you want to know also is what the sense of the not necessarily read the specific words but at least get a sense of what they were going to do or only reporting I think you got it which is we're going to slow our roll right we're going to try to understand what we've got what we're doing and every bit of everything all along they have because it's public record it's on the website anybody on the board has the opportunity to read all of it with oral reports and we can fast forward but I will be standing up because I'll be called on by Matthew DeGroote and giving what I consider a summary of what's been done as factual as I can do it and challenge them all to please read through it because I love their opinions and then our report is that the subcommittee needs to decide amongst itself whether they think they should continue to exist in keep working or whether they would like to be sunset and it's up to the board to go on with it and so you can watch it and if you find that anything is there please reach out to every single board member and say I think this is wrong Karen Brownlee got this wrong she said it this way and that is not how it was please do that or if you're there so that's what I'm trying to say see my vote right now would be to me you guys are done this is done there's no time for this there's other priorities maybe revisit it in another year or whatever but that would be my vote why? I'm not opposed to the elementary school starting at a different time I don't think it's necessary but thank you 32 and I've talked to a lot of people in the building, other parents I've had two daughters already graduate here both very successful didn't have any issues getting up early played sports division one athletes I had two girls so what works personally for you and that is hard to do we talk to people we often I've done the same with the exact opposite conversation so we talk to people who agree with us too I feel like there's all these people and I'm looking for them in here and I'm finding them because we want to so can I just bring in a piece from research I mean my qualitative methods are part of my doctoral program so what do you like it or not everyone's biased everyone is biased there is no way that you can fully check your biases so if anyone says you can make a survey that's completely bias free or objective you can't so what the best research does as a researcher when you start to write your research the first thing you do is declare your point of view and your biases and so people as they read the rest of it say oh I understand the bent that this is coming for and I as the reader can decide whether it's valid or not so I really appreciate you trying to say hey you guys have got to be objective about this but I also want to say that's almost a false facade it can't be done that's part of this that's the part of that's actually from being a former engineer and coming into human sciences from the physical sciences I like the human sciences so much more because there's so many more variables you like that I like engineering I understand people call me crazy but I like that part to me that makes it a lot more interesting it's a lot harder it's extremely a lot harder because you don't know all the variables it can't make everybody happy it's also exactly why I put out on front porch form when I put the notes out the people that have been coming to the early meetings have all been in favor of it and I know not everybody's in favor of it so you've got to make your perspective and I think that's part of what we heard it's like hey there's a mixture out there and we've got to find out what that means and that to me is and I'm trying and Chrissy hopefully I want to represent the staff there's a piece here that's saying hey slow down get us in the conversation I think there are questions that they have about questions that we brought up that we haven't been able to answer or if they were answered they weren't thoroughly thought out so I think maybe there's more research into it there are a lot of valid questions all the way around I should note we're hitting the hour mark is there anything more that needs to be said good for do you want to try to schedule a time a night time I can't give you beginning of school day time right now Karen because we have that basically all scheduled right now for start of school do you want to try to schedule something that's an open forum for the association teacher group that would like to come and would you like to try to do that before the end of June or would you like to try to do that at the beginning of school and I'd be willing to communicate that back to you should we wait to see what the board decides and that's a possible two I'm just asking the question because like I tell you I got a couple of emails there and I think they thought this was their meeting and I'm like no this is not here I've got it's back so you're trying to be proactive in case it gets built into I'm trying to be proactive exactly but I just wanted to make sure what I'm trying to do is frankly I'm trying to say to folks I promise I gauge them you will have your voice but it's part of the piece of not understanding because of open meeting law I couldn't bring this group together tonight or I couldn't do it through email hey what would you like to do and I knew I had to explain the letter and all that and then I get to a discussion and if I do that online I just violated open meeting law so can I suggest that as a committee where we commit to that group when it is appropriate there will be a space but I don't know what outcome we're looking for by asking for their time at this point but going back to this we've got enough to chew on with this I think asking for a group of staff to come and talk about what I don't see the value of it is that somebody may feel hurt because they had an opportunity to come talk but I think the danger is that because we have nothing to talk about we'll end up actually boiling things up we don't have the answers to many other questions well we may not but at least we'll hear their concerns and I think the stakeholder group the teachers are a stakeholder group for sure that's who we need to be reaching out we did it with the community and so I would say we have because when appropriate needs when is it appropriate to have them further down the path when we recommend that would be if you were going to talk to you with differences at that point I think I'd be flexible with either one I would really appreciate the opportunity of having a discussion format we also by the way get a copy not in pdf form I can go on a long and extended rant about the applicability of pdf for sharing documents one of the key ones being it's hard to use native like searching tools and so on there's 14 pages of comments here and I'm trying to find one right now that I read and I can't find it even but of course it's a paper my favorite one well I had one there was one about some poor kid who's riding the bus and I wanted to just see if it was a one and a half hours each way which is the way I thought I read it which is like there's something we can do to optimize this poor kid's bus route but in any event if we could have the actual text comments in a more portable format that would be great any particular one you like plain text is what I like the most html works maybe you know everything rich text maybe format you can get a little bit of format alright what was your favorite one mine was about the menstrual utensils available I think did you see that I was like well I'm glad they wrote that I'm on a school board I have to bring that but I think Governor Scott may have may have done response number one on the paragraph hahahaha eliminate teachers I think we need to do a little more slicing and slicing on a hundred and one comments too just as far as even just a simple first approximation of this one's in favor of the change this one's not did you say rich text rich text it's a simple market one it's something that word can say to everything thank you Brittany I started to print I ended up just printing the comments because I didn't want to use all the hardware I didn't even got my printer yeah so are we good you got what you need yes Chris here do you happen I'm fine be careful with your words great in that case Richard thank you very much everyone thank you Karen