 I won't touch anyone. All right. So do you want to get started? We have a quorum. So I would like to call to order the South Wellington City Council meeting of December 3rd, 2018. We'll start with the Pledge of Allegiance, and Tom Hubbard, why don't you start. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic from which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. So our second item is possibly enter into executive sessions for the purpose of discussing three items, community center contracts with the library, board of trustees, a discussion of collective bargaining of labor relations agreements with employees, and thirdly, attorney client communications with city attorneys related to adopted interim bylaws. So I move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of contracts and contract terms between the city and third parties related to the new community center, labor relations agreements with employees, collective bargaining and confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to the council would clearly place the council in the city at a substantial disadvantage. Second. Okay, all in favor. Aye. Aye. And having so found, I now move that the council enter into executive sessions for the purpose of discussing those three things that I just moved in the previous motion. Is that okay to say that? Okay. Inviting. Okay. Leave it up. It doesn't say, but I would suppose Tom Hubbard and. Our city attorneys. Yes, the library board. Yes, J Pascal and our city attorney Andrew Bullock. Yes. Got it all. Okay. Second. Okay. Any discussion? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. So we are. Moving into executive session. Upstairs. Okay. It's 10 o'clock. Where have you been? Yeah. 631. I know we started 630. We don't fall around. Hey, I have a cold. I want to get home. Right on time. I like to call back into order. The South Burlington city council meeting of Monday, December 3rd, 2018. Okay. And we will move to item three on the agenda. Instructions on exit exiting building in case of emergency. Tom. Thanks, Helen. It's true we have an emergency tonight. We'd ask people to exit out these two side doors and then meet us right outside in the parking lot here behind us. If for some reason these doors are blocked, we'd go back out the front entrance the way that you came in. Okay. I'll make sure I clear the bathrooms. I think that's the other piece of it. I will clear the bathrooms. Everybody else get out of the building. They're all good. Okay. Agenda review. Any additions, deletions or changes in order of agenda items? And the only thing I see missing actually is a report on any of the committees that we serve on. Okay. So maybe we could include that during our announcements. Okay. So seeing no changes for the agenda comments and questions for the public not related to the agenda. Yes, please come forward. Hi. My name is Eric Simondinger. I wanted to make sure that everyone on the board had gotten an email from me concerning 5G. Mm-hmm. Had anyone not received an email? Concerning what? 5G. Oh, yeah, I did get that. Yes. There were quite a few attachments as I recall or links. Yes. Yeah. So did everyone receive that? Yes, I think we all did. Okay. And I also wanted to let you guys know that I talked with Paul Conner upstairs. He's the head of the environment part of here. And he said that currently they have a lot of end of year stuff going on so that any legislation towards 5G regulation would be later on maybe in like a month or two. So I just wanted to let you guys know how that was going. Okay. And I'm sorry, it would be postponed until when? I think he said to check back in a month or two. When a month or two? Okay. I didn't understand you. And I thought you had, I, good. Okay. In a month or two. Yes. So I just wanted to, you know, let you guys know how it's progressing. Okay. Thank you. At least me and maybe the people. What is 5G legislation? So currently they, there is 4G technology and 3G technology for cell towers. Okay. And currently they are releasing 5G technology and there aren't any safety studies on 5G. And it's a military frequency used in AEDS active denial systems. So there is some concern. There's also some communities in America that have banned cell towers from residential areas such as Mill Valley. And there's also some firefighters had these cell towers put on their station in California. And they reported having insomnia, intrusive thoughts, mental fatigue. And they had these cell towers removed and these symptoms went away. So there's a growing concern about the safety of these towers. Thank you. Thank you very much. So we'll see you again in a month or two. Any other comments from the public? All righty. Announcements and the city manager's report. Tim, do you want to start? Sure. I attended the planning commission meeting last Monday. And it was very interesting. They, I, you know, they do good work. I think we need to have them report to us often to tell us exactly what progress they're making on interim zoning as they, as they move forward. And then make sure that their priority list is being in their helicopter. And our crew made several points that the work they were doing Monday night should have been more focused on exactly what they were going to start doing. You know, so they spent time going over, you know, agenda items related to interim zoning. But it was my desire and I didn't say this at the meeting was that I wish they had started talking about the PUD right then there that night. Now I left after an hour and a half, maybe they did. I didn't stay for the whole meeting. But, you know, we have nine or X months, right? To get this process moving. And for whatever meetings that they have, if they're going to appoint people, they better have that done immediately. And then get down to the task of doing the PUD work first, foremost. And let's get it out of the way so they can show the progress that they're going to make. So just, I mean, it's just a reflection from having been there. I've got something you can share with Paul Conner, because I think he with Jessica, no, but he and Jessica pulled together the agenda. So I think if Paul knows that there's, because I share that concern that they really need to. The fact that we said that they requested that we give them the benefit of interim zoning to get specific work done. Let's get the work started immediately. I mean, I don't want to rush into it, but I do want to rush into it, if you know what I mean. Yep. Yep. No. You met Tuesday night. Yeah. It was last Tuesday. Monday. No, Tuesday. Okay. Tuesday. It was snowing. Tuesday. Thank you. David. Well, I wasn't here most of the last two weeks. So I haven't, uh, into the semester crunch. There's not much else, not much else this week. It, uh, the only thing is that I think, uh, that you and maybe Kevin, I don't know, met with Bob Leclerc and the architects and, uh, working on the design of the indoor recreation. So you met last Friday if I'm not mistaken. Right. And I don't know where you're, what progress you made or where, where we're at on that. Yep. So I was now appropriate time to update that. I'm just curious. Okay. We'll be covered under, um, unless you have some other. No, I don't, I don't. I just hadn't gotten to talking to Bob yet. And so, but, uh, you know, that's the progress. We're all looking forward to, um, from the indoor recreation facility perspective. Okay. Yes. Megan. Like David. I don't have much. I did have a big holiday and lots of family time. I did want to put on your list and update on the status report for our sustainability efforts. The city's sustainability efforts. Um, believe we're going to have some kind of update for the public. I did respond back to your email. So I don't know if you saw that or not. So I, I guess we're just looking for a little guidance from council in terms of what the priority is going to be because with interim zoning, and if we're talking about the other item on the agenda tonight, the capacity is going to be such that something has got a slide a little bit. And I guess we're assuming that that's probably something that would slide with the importance placed on the other items that you've identified. Climate, um, challenge, right? Yeah. Yeah. I think that was the focus. Paul will be here later tonight. And he can probably speak better in terms of what his personal capacity is right now with everything that is kind of coming, planning and zoning way. I think he's feeling a little overwhelmed. Okay. But if the council feels that you want him to shift something, he's certainly willing to do that. I think there's just, um, there's a bit of pressure that he's feeling about not being able to do all the things that are kind of all the balls that are in the air right now. So maybe that's a better discussion for Paul when he's here. I know he'll be here later. So, but I did get your, I heard your point. Thank you. Tom. So I'll start with GMT. Sure. Just, um, last meeting we approved a new transit asset management plan, which is a living document required by the federal government. We also tweaked our purchasing policy just to, uh, stay in line with some other nothing major riveting there. And then I'm very excited. We just approved an electric buses contract. So, Oh, nice. We signed it. We agreed to a contract. This is public knowledge. Yes. And next August or September, we'll have two electric buses in fleet. So we're excited about that. Who's brand? I'm just curious. Pro Terra. Um, we also then spend a lot of time mostly in executive session. Uh, that on the funding source discussion last year's budget and this coming year's budget, I'll have a lot more to report on soon. And I know that you're interested in getting that. So is the rest of the community. And they all know that. So I'm hoping you'll get an email in the next couple of weeks with a pencil, an idea of what we're looking at for an assessment. Committee reports to. Yes. Okay. Yeah. When it comes back around, last, uh, we are starting on our GM contract renewal and review process. Mark was, uh, hired. He was given a one year contract starting in January, which ends this January. So I'm engaged in conducting the surveys of both the board members, some leadership in GMT, and also some external constituents to prepare the board for a contract negotiation with our general manager this coming January. The only announcement I'd like to make is that we're going to have a meeting. We're going to have a meeting. We're going to have a meeting with our general manager this coming January. The only announcement I'd like to make other than GM, and I'm happy to spend more time on GM, a few questions on that. But the only announcement is this coming Sunday, ugly sweater run at the veterans memorial park. Hope a lot of, see a lot of people out there, whether it's supposed to be great, 40 degrees and sunny. So get your ugly sweaters and come out to veterans memorial for 10 30 a.m. To run a 2.5, 5k. 2.5, 5k. Is it 5k or 2.5? It's a walk part. The walk is 2.5, I think. The walk is 2.5. Okay. It was 5k, but then I saw 2.5 on a sign. It's a low and it's a low impact kind of event. Lot of 5. Okay. Thank you. Do you want to soak it back? Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Well, in Chris Shaw's stead, I attended the CCRPC as the alternate. And we, the big item was the audit that came back. That came back with a very good report. Um, and I also wanted to share that there was an update on the, um, the, what are the bikes called again? I'm sorry. Um, uh, the Ben and Jerry's, the seven generations sponsored the e-bikes. Is that what they're called? Bike share. Bike share. Right. Right. And so they're looking to expand that with some e-bikes. Um, that's what they had signed on to initially, but they are seeing perhaps the hills in our community as, as somewhat as an impediment to people making round trips with bikes that they, they tend to take them downhill and the uphill is a little bit more difficult. So, so they're working on that. Also looking into scooters. Um, and the legislative breakfast, I believe is next week. And hopefully Helen, you received, you got the invitation. Very good. Okay. Just wanted to make sure that that was made to you. And when we have our affordable housing, um, discussion, I'll discuss some of the things that were discussed or announced, uh, at that meeting, uh, things coming up in December in January with regard to affordable housing. Great. Okay. Well, I went to two meetings this week. One was wonderful. I was invited to present and serve on a little panel for the, um, official, uh, ribbon cutting for, um, Allard square. And, um, I received a beautiful little plaque for the community. So, I'll hand this to you. It says presented to the city of South Burlington with appreciation from cathedral square for helping create Allard square in November, 2018. And then there's a picture of it's really quite nice. So, Pardon me. It's not a square. It's a honeycomb. Honeycomb. Honeycomb. And one of the things that I just would share with you, the question I was asked was they had five of us on a panel. And it was sort of what did South Burlington, what, what advice would I give to other, um, communities and how to be, um, as effective or, uh, provide the same level of leadership and commitment to affordable housing as South Burlington. So I, I went through a number of, um, items, but I only mentioned that because what I heard from, um, everyone who spoke is that they see South Burlington as a real shining example of the kind of commitment and the different, um, things that we have done to, um, support affordable housing is really a wonderful template for the state. So that was really nice to hear. And it was a lovely event. For me, one of the, um, the most, there were two sort of tender moments. One was they, um, we sang happy birthday to, um, Mrs. Allard, um, for whom the, the project was, um, 103, I think, or two, she was there with her sister from Quebec and two friends. Um, and then, um, and they had a beautiful picture of her at the groundbreaking that they, they hung in the lobby. And the other really, um, tender, and it brought sort of tears to my eyes. They, um, dedicated, I'm going to be known to Sarah Carpenter. They dedicated the, um, what do they call it? Activities room in her honor. And she had, has been working. She was the first cathedral square leader when she founded the, the, the concept, I guess, and has been active for 35 years in affordable housing for the, uh, excuse me for the elderly. And she didn't know they were doing this. So it was, it was really very, very sweet and a very nice, um, program. And the building is, is really just beautiful. The other meeting I went to was a, um, excuse me, an airport commission meeting. And some of the highlights, um, heritage, um, shared with the commission that they have become a B Corp. They received their B Corp certification. And as a result of that, we'll be offering carbon credits to their consumers, which is kind of neat from wind and solar. Um, we got an update on a lot of, a lot of the construction and, um, because they try to have a lot of projects shelf ready, and they have a whole list of things that they, improvements that they want to make, um, to the airport. They have a lot of things that are kind of shelf ready so that, um, where, if there's, um, additional money that's available at the end of a fiscal year, they have a project that they can apply for that's ready to go. It's not just a concept or a thought, or we know we need to do it and we haven't done the planning. So they received, um, some additional money to, um, accelerate the terminal apron phases five and six. So that'll be done, I think a year early. Um, they also are developing a new chart to, they haven't finished it yet, but to illustrate really how the airport financing occurs. So when they have that laid out, they have a whole lot of different, um, what you call them, um, spreadsheets and stuff about all sorts of junk that have to do with airports, you know, with the cost of the tickets, the nominee and plain mints and all that kind of stuff. And they're trying to make it a little more, um, transparent and, and understandable to the commission and presumably the public, what kind of financing they actually earn from the, um, uh, parking garage and things like that. So when it's ready, I will definitely share it with you. Um, let's see. As you know, they've, we've started the airport master plan planning and they're going to be starting a public survey and are really, um, asked me and, and other people to really encourage the public to participate in that survey. They really are interested in, and they're spending, you know, they have this consultant at several hundred thousand dollars to do this, um, outreach for the, um, master plan. So they really want to make sure that a lot of, um, public members in South Burlington, um, come to the meetings. Um, and if they can't come to the meetings at the very least, um, fill out the survey and really share their thoughts. Um, the participation has been a little poor so far, but, you know, I think sometimes it's the time of day or the weather's crummy or. What do they announce the meetings? Um, well, that's might be another, um, problem. And a lot of people on the committee don't show up either, but they send out, um, you know, emails and things, but maybe we should, I should make more of an effort. Um, to put that on front porch forum, it's on their website, but not everyone goes to their website. So I'll, I'll make a point of trying to, um, reach out to, um, at least the airport neighborhood to, um, when those are and when the, um, survey will be ready. And they have two final, well, there's four final homes, I guess to be demolished. Two will be removed in the next 60 to 90 days. One on Kirby and one on Shamrock, such as an update there. And then, um, we also got a report and I thought this is interesting because, um, when they, the hotel, I wasn't on the commission. So I didn't know how they, that process worked, but they have a ground lease. The airport has only a ground lease with a due construction which has created an LLC, um, so that they can have the franchise for this Marriott, um, what is it called? It's a Marriott, um, Fairfield residents. Fairfield residents. Yes. And they will, um, and they designed it. And I have, um, pictures of the out, you know, what it looks like and stuff, the, um, sketch, sketch and what each, each, um, floor looks like and stuff. So if you'd like to see it, you're welcome to see that. Um, and so they will build and manage it. And so it's really, um, the airport will not be managing it. All they own is the land underneath, which they will, um, you know, I guess they pay rent or something for that. And then any of the, um, room and meals tax, the, um, local option tax comes to the city of south Burlington. Oh, it does. It does. Sure. So let me just clarify, get clarification on that. The airport owns the land. The airport owns the land. Yes. And they're giving due construction, a long-term lease on the land to build their hotel. Yes. And then, then this due LLC will be managing it as well. I think Marriott brings in their own team, but not, not necessarily. Well, whatever. What about property taxes? I think the property tax, that becomes part of, yeah, that's ours and that's part of that agreement. So it's not the market rate. Right. But it's, I think it would be for a hotel. Is it? Okay. Yeah. Heritage changes to a B corporation, right? Does that change their property tax as well? I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. Good question. Because it's a, a B corporation is this like a socially responsible thing, but I don't know if it's a nonprofit. So I know that some nonprofit buildings, right, have a lower property tax than others, right? Like Aller's Square has a, has a different property tax. Well, that is a housing component. I don't know if all. Just curious, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know if all nonprofits necessarily have a lower property tax. But anyway, so that is my update for the airport. And I'm following up on that thing. I just haven't. Thank you. I've got to figure out how to ask him or what exactly it is. So we should sit down and chat about that. They had two. I don't get the free parts for free parking. A garage. Oh, usable up to April 3rd of next year. Go back and look at your papers and peel off the stuff. Okay. Okay. We'll go find him in the dump and feel. Okay. So, oh, city managers report. Thanks, Helen. A few of our staff, including myself went over to the Aller's Square opening. You did a great job. By the way, it was a fun event and an exciting event. The good crowd. I mean, I think it's a good thing. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. It was an exciting event. The good crowd. And just, it was good to see everybody happy. Many of the residents were there. And a few of them spoke. And it was very impressive. Yeah, a good, a very nice service. Still working on the budget with department managers. And our goal is to have an overview overview for you at the 17th meeting. The CIP will also be presented as a public hearing. Public hearing that night. Justin asked if I would remind folks that the parking van is now in effect. I think our plows have been out three times already. And that's just November. As he reminds me. But the parking van is from midnight to 8 a.m. So that's now in effect. We continue to work to get our audit finalized and our valuation complete from our actuary. We should have that within the next week or so. Those presentations will be in January to the council. The next meeting we have presentations from Tim Barton on the performing performing arts center feasibility study. Lead door with an update on the work to date on the indoor rec center. And Tony Kairns will be coming in to discuss the proposal for a central entrance in addition to the ice arenas up at veterans memorial park. I did meet with Bob like we in the architects last last week. I saw the proposal of what the arena board is looking at for a central entrance and how that might connect to a new indoor rec facility. I don't know if it can connect directly because one's front structure will be in the way. What is that gets rebuilt? They're going to make a corridor connection to it. So what did you say about Tony? I'm sorry I missed that. He'll be coming to the next meeting to give the council an update on the proposal for the central entrance. He's gaining momentum on that. That's good. Yeah, it's great. If we could finish that off and get the rec center built and do both potentially at the same time and get some economies of scale on construction costs, it could be huge. That could make a real nice difference. We're excited to finish. It's been 21 years. We want to get this project done. Remember, it would have been done what five years ago had not been for that idiot Sandy Miller. Well, it would have been. So. And Kevin will be back next week. That's all I have. Thank you. You're working remotely at all? Or is it just straight vacation? Straight vacation. Good. Good for you. Yeah. Good time to be gone. And I just, you know, going to the Allard Square opening, I've been driving back and forth on the newly paved and upgraded market street. And there is so much construction going on. And at the Allard Square meeting, I chatted with Chris Snyder or Ken, I can't remember which one, but they have another project that is headed toward the DRB for 80 units of housing that's kind of beyond the plot where we're putting the library, sort of the next plot over. On Market Street. And that's for CHT, but this in between that, they're planning another 80 unit. Is that market rate? Market rate, yeah. Apartments. Apartments, I believe. Yeah. Well, I don't know if it's condos or apartments. But anyway, he shared that with me. So that's sort of the next thing on there. He didn't say, and I didn't get into all those details, but it just encouraged me that, you know, our TIF funds will start trickling in and we will have hopefully the resources to support our library. I really appreciated Paul and Justin responding to the gentleman on Front Porch Forum who was concerned about what's all this about them paving it and they haven't done anything and there's no improvement because only half the infrastructure work is done, right? I mean, it's not a complete construction season. So I appreciated seeing their rapid response explanation about the state of Market Street. And I think that was important for them to do that. I appreciate it. Yeah. That's a point. I've had also some comments with regard to Kimball Avenue and the bridge there that we're venting currently from the state that some kind of, you know, public information billboard would be helpful. They don't always go to the city website. They don't always. So maybe something on Market Street also saying, you know, here's where we are. Here's the timeline. Here's where we are. I think it could be helpful and it would only benefit, you know, the whole process. Just don't make it a billboard because they're illegal. Like the ones that are right. Right. A sign. A sign. I know where there's a lot of them right now downtown Burlington right around the whole project. Right. Okay. So moving on to the item seven, the consent agenda. I would entertain a motion to approve consideration and sign disbursements approval for minutes. Although we wanted to, I will make the motion with, I have a couple of comments. Yeah. Okay. The minutes of October 15th, November 13th and the 19th approved the pension amendment and a resolution establishing the South Burlington public safety management group for enrollment in the Vermont municipal employees retirement system. So I move that we approve the consent agenda. Mm-hmm. Second. All right. And just a couple. Did you want to make some. Yes. Yes. Okay. I have one question. It was on the disbursement. It was the last line where it was the Winooski Press and I'm curious the winter reminder notice in the Winooski Press. Do we advertise in other local papers in addition to our own? Let me pull that out. Okay. Megan, I'll look it up. Sorry. Maybe we can move it on to our other business. But I think it's the winter parking man, but I'll find out. I'm guessing they might have printed it up for us as well so that we could distribute it out to people that actually as a warning. Oh, that's probably it. I'll just, I can double check that. Okay. Good. The comment I had was with regard to, let me get to the page. The minutes, Sue, and I know I really do like this system where we do read them ahead of time, like well ahead of time. So, but nevertheless with regard to the 13th of November minutes, page seven, I made a motion to add, and it says in the minutes, the Eau Claire land within the city of South Burlington to the lands exempt from interim zoning. And I just wanted to make sure that that was absolutely crystal clear for everybody. I was looking at the document, the agreement, and there was the term, the Eau Claire lands. They're in the second paragraph. And so what I would like to suggest is Ms. Emory moved to add the Eau Claire lands within the city of South Burlington to the lands exempt from interim zoning. These lands include the parcels that were part of the conservation land deal with the city, commonly known as parcels A, B, and C. Mr. Kaufman seconded motion passed unanimously. And I have it here. And I froze for you. So that is the only amendment I wanted to make, to propose. Okay. So we have a motion to approve the consent agenda as amended. And it's seconded. Any further discussion? All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. Thank you. Moving on to number eight, interview applicants for the Natural Resources Committee. We have two candidates. Alison Schellman. Hi, Alison. Come forward, please. I haven't had a chance to read this because we just got it tonight. So maybe you can try to remember. Care with us. You want to copy? I might need a copy. Why you are interested in joining the Natural Resources Committee. So I am a new resident to South Burlington. And prior to moving here, I lived in New Jersey where I served six years on the Koraharchorn Arboretum Board. It was a local 16-acre arboretum that was gifted to the town of Milburn by Koraharchorn. She was alive in the early 1900s. And she had this amazing foresight to gift a small parcel of land in a big city. And I was fortunate enough to serve on the board of trustees and the executive committee. I took care of the 16 acres woodlands. And then I later became a Rutgers master gardener. So I have this connection to the land and also a connection to the environment and taking care of the open spaces in the natural world is very important to me. And I'm hoping to connect the two things that I love and to get more involved in the community here in South Burlington and protecting our lands. All right. I grew up in Mountain Sock. Oh, okay. Not too far. So do you know the arboretum? Koraharchorn? I don't. I don't. It's small. Space. But I worked very closely with the town forester. And I had about a $60,000 budget that I was responsible for. So we did a lot of removal of invasive plants, planting native shrubs for migratory birds and insects. And we had a wildflower garden. So it was a great experience. And the weed warrior from South Burlington. I'm already a weed warrior. It's ferocious here. It is. Some of which I've never seen before about managing it. So do we have any questions for Allison? I have a standard question. Are you familiar with the meeting pattern? Have you attended any of the meetings so far? I mean, I've come to all the city council, most of the city council meetings, the development review board meetings. So I've seen a little bit of it in action. I mean, we had months at the arboretum. We had monthly meetings once a week. And then being on the executive committee, we had additional meetings once a week. So I'm similar with that kind of format. It wasn't as formal with the city of Milburn, but I think it's very similar. I think. Can we meet Wednesday nights? So just great. As long as you have a general idea of your availability. I'm pretty free. I'm pretty flexible. I'm looking to get involved with the communities. Yes. I have a sensitive question. Sure. I apologize if this is off base. Just the question is, I see you live on Mullen Farm Road. Are you part of the group of people that are appealing the DRB decision on the preliminary platform for it? I was, but I think I've been removed from it since wanting to apply for this. Just asking that question. I'm not making a judgment. No, no, no. Of course. Of course. I mean, I'm concerned about everything. So whether it was that or just, you know, being a part of it, just to be more involved with the community and the natural world. Great. Any other questions? Okay. I guess I'll be curious during our discussion of the policy, you know, for policy of conflict of interest. Is that a conflict of interest in your eyes, Tim? I mean, everybody has to live somewhere. Right. Right. Everybody is affected by some sort of policy. I don't know. Okay. I was just curious by that. I don't personally see it as a conflict of interest. Okay, that's fine. No, I just wanted to understand the reasons. I guess a question I have is not only, you know, the expertise do you bring into a committee, but also just your expertise of working with people and where do you see in that problem solving kind of group work? Well, I feel like I'm also a school teacher, but I have a master's in education. I taught for a few years before I had my four children and also before moving back, moving to Vermont. I had just recently gone back to work where I was a head teacher for two year olds and I also taught yoga for over a year. So I feel, I feel like I do know how to breathe and I just feel like I've always had a good ability to work with people and problem solve and just be open to ideas for sure. Wearing rain boots and all that good stuff. That's fine. It's liberating. Okay. Any other questions? Great. Well, I appreciate your interest. Thank you very much for your time. And then Duncan Murdock. We have two openings. Welcome. Hi. So again, let's see. Want to tell us why you're interested in, and what skills you would bring to the Natural Resources Committee? I'm very interested in serving the city of South Burlington. I grew up in Shelburne and I have recently moved back in the past three or so years and I really want to get involved in my, further in my community and also further in shaping how we live in South Burlington and how we sustainably develop our city. So I work at the Intervail Center as a land steward for a time as an interim land manager. And there I help develop invasive species land management programs. And also I developed a volunteer program to help steward the land there. And I also have a business called Nature Connection Guide and where I lead forest bathing walks for people to connect to nature for their well-being. So. I just asked. Great. Yeah, ask your question. No. I just have to talk with staff and sometimes we appoint people to committees that have a standing conflict with the meeting time, but they meet Wednesday nights at 6 p.m. and you have a general availability to, great, excellent. Okay. Any other, sounds like. Do you have any of those meetings? Yes. The Natural Resource Committee meetings, yes. So. Sounds like you have a lot of expertise. You're bringing a lot of expertise, both you and Allison are bringing experience and expertise to the, to those committees. And I think they are in a transition period right now. So it's good to have new blood and skills and knowledge being brought to the committee. Have you been on other boards before? I am also on the South Brownsland Land Trust. I'm a board member there. But no, this would be my first. What skills do you think you bring in that board work? I feel I collaborate really well with people. And I also, yeah, I understand that, that collaboration is essential. And I feel that I have an open mind and I feel it's essential to hear everyone out and everyone's opinion, make sure everyone feels listened to. And that's, that's my answer there. Thank you. Thank you. And we have two openings currently. We have more than two. Well, they've had a couple recent people who left. They retired. They left the committee for various reasons. So I think it's important. That's why we brought them forward tonight out of context because they really didn't have enough. And as you recall, we're asking them to do some work for during the IZ period. So it's good to have some skill sets that have been described. What we're circling is here is we established a policy where we're not doing off-cycle appointments unless a committee has trouble meeting quorum or if it's one of our charter-based bodies, Planning Commission DRB. So that's why we're appointing off-cycle. Yeah, it seems really important right now to get going. Great. Great. Thank you. Do you have any questions for us? We should have asked Allison too. No. Okay. Thank you. All right. Allison, do you have any questions for us? No. I appreciate your opportunity. Do you want to deliberate in public on this or do you want to make this a... I move. Yeah. Okay. So I would entertain... Do you want to do them together? Sure. I would entertain a motion to appoint Allison Chalnick and Duncan Murdoch to the Natural Resources Committee for... I guess they're filling out a term. I don't know how many years each term is. We'll have to do some research on that. Can we let you know they have... I don't know if they're both three-year terms. Some are two-year. We'll get you started anyway. We'll get you started and then we'll let you know. People are on these committees for a long time, so... Pardon me? We'll have Celine. Okay. We'll have Celine contact each of you and identify which term or where you are in the term. So moved. Second. Okay. Any further discussion? Yeah. I think it's exciting we've got some good experience that are volunteering here. That's great. Thank you both. All in favor? Aye. Okay. Thank you so much for expressing the interest and we'll keep you busy. Is that the quickest we've ever interviewed and then appointed? I think so. That's pretty much. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. One of the fastest. Okay. Moving on to number nine. Discussion and possible action on matters related to studies and work plan conducted during interim zoning particularly to advance inclusionary zoning. So we have Tommy. We had a request and I think in a discussion when we were creating the, in discussing the work roles of the interim zoning committees and particularly what we were tasking the planning commission to do. And I think what got lost in the shuffle a bit was a presentation that John, I think John you alone or maybe you and Sandy had made about asking the planning commission to housing committee had come up with a recommendation. They studied it. It has, they've worked on it for a very long time. And I'm hoping to be able to implement that in the area not that's not part of interim zoning. So the areas that we have sort of carved out which specifically are focused on areas we've identified as wanting to have more intense or appropriate to have more intensive development. And so this was brought to my attention that it wasn't clear I guess whether the council was interested in, in tasking the planning commission to sort of get on that early I guess soon. I know they have the PUDs and the PUDs were maybe Tim you can help me with this. My understanding is that it's not just for the southeast quadrant but they're doing the PUD ordinances are development all over the city. Correct? I think so too. So there are some that apply to non interim zoned lands and the affordable housing committee is interested in having them include this inclusionary zoning for affordable housing in those areas. But that raises a really good point though. It's like you should. Is it too late to direct that into focus on the southeast quadrant in this PUD? Only are changes? Or does their work have to cover the entire city? My only concern is that as we can narrow their scope enough they can get the work done in the time a lot of it. Well I think there's some lands outside of the southeast quadrant that would benefit from more careful zoning regulations as well. You know they lie on the other side of Spear Street for instance and I think that I'm not ready to have them focus only on the southeast quadrant. I think. They can't really do it because it was a specific zoning areas. Those areas go outside. Paul here should I ask him to come up and help answer some questions? Can you do that? Am I right with the key? I want to change. Call Conrad director of planning and zoning. So am I correct that all the different little models of the PUDs are for development throughout the city or is it mostly in the southeast quadrant? There are different types of PUDs and they could apply in different places all throughout the city. I think two important notes for the council about the PUD project. One is that assigning its geography is really a very small piece of it because it's the entire structure of how a PUD works. So only the commission went through a pretty substantial work plan list of what it means. In order to have a revised PUD it means having new subdivision rules. It means having new site plan rules. It means having what is looked at in a PUD in terms of connectivity to neighboring properties, in terms of natural resources, in terms of transportation, in terms of open space, all these kinds of things. And so the assignment of a physical location, either in the southeast quadrant or elsewhere, is really just 5% of it because most of it is the structure of how one exists, where one applies it is really just one small component of it. So to do it in just one area or to assign it to one area might actually be more work because what do we do with the rest of the city then? Do we keep the old PUD standards? So I'm not sure that that would really save any time. So how would integrating into that inclusionary zoning for affordable housing work? Does that put you back to square one or is that something that would change? When you say integrating, do you mean about how would the two work together or what would happen if the council were to ask the commission to add that to their work plan? Well, probably both. Okay. Well, in terms of how the two could work together, the structure that is going to exist for planning of developments and subdivisions will have a lot of component parts that come into it. And so at any time that the city chooses to adopt a city-wide standard or a standard that applies in certain parts of the city, it would essentially plug into it. So it could exist before, during, or afterwards. In any of those cases it would fit okay. Timing-wise, I think that the key question for the council would be, what do you want commission's time and importantly I'll say staff time to focus on? We're estimating that realistically the affordable housing committee has spent a lot of time developing a concept and a very thoroughly thought out concept. It has not yet been publicly presented or vetted or pushed and pulled. The planning commission has spent a couple meetings beginning to sort of test the questions. I think we're conservatively looking at probably six to eight hours of commission time to work through this and somewhere in the- To work through their recommendations? Well, work through the recommendations and or do public meetings and or go through the adoption process. There's a lot of steps involved with me kind of regulatory change. That's a significant amount of commission time. And then from a staff perspective, in order to really fully host these, review the documents, understand what the administrative implications are. We sort of use a 10 to 1 ratio in terms of time. So for every commission meeting or that's about that. Sixty to 80 hours? Probably something like that. So I guess then the question for the council would be where do you want to fit this in? Right now the commission had a meeting last week and their discussion was that their first priority is the PUD project as determined by the council. Second priority that they had discussed was that they would be interface with the open space and TDR groups. So they're going to be, they've nominated a liaison to you and in order to have it go to for your consideration, in order to have that go efficiently they would dedicate some time under each meeting the next few months to make sure that there are any questions that come up or answered right up. The third priority right now would be any results that come out of those two groups, TDR, Committee or Open Space that have a regulatory or plan implication that that would be their next thing. And then knowing that the council had had some discussions but had not yet taken any action related to inclusionary zoning that that would be the next priority right after that in terms of that rank order of things. So that's how they've been looking at it. If you were to choose to adjust that, that probably means that the total timeframe for all the projects goes out either from staff and or the commission time. Is there one nugget that this can be narrowed down to so that it doesn't have as much time impact on their work for interim zoning? Because this doesn't have to be all done at once. I mean, you can take major pieces of this and then do one piece first and then later on, if we're out of interim zoning or as we're coming out of it, then maybe take another chunk and then take a swag at that. I'm just asking that question rhetorically, because I really don't want to slow down the planning commission with the interim zoning of what we promised the public in the first place. But I'd like to try and take something from here and get it done if possible. Maybe John has some... Good question. I'd have to think on it a little bit. You know, I really think it's a matter of... John Simpson, chair of the Affordable Housing Committee, you know, I really think it's a matter of priorities. Now, for the past couple months, a very powerful or outspoken group of citizens has been advocating before you for concern about wildlife corridors, about protecting the land. And I'm not saying that isn't important. You know, we're representing the city's side that says the people are important, that the comprehensive plan says that we should have more affordable housing. The problem's getting worse in this region every day. And we've got potential in the districts that have been set aside from interim zoning for some fairly substantial housing. You all know about the Larkin Project down on 7. That would be in... If we had done this a couple years ago, that would include 15% of affordable housing. And what he tore down to build that was affordable housing. It wasn't great housing, but it was affordable. And if we allow more time to go and have more development happen, when we have the opportunity, simply by passing inclusionary zoning, to have, you know, 15, 20, 30, 100 units of housing that our working people, our city employees, are required, then I think we've done something good. And so amongst the things that are in the work plan for the Planning Commission, isn't it possible that some of those things you could adjust your resolution for interim zoning and say some of those things can spill over and don't even have to be in the nine months that you've set aside. I just think you tilted way over to the side of stopping development and I just want you to look at your priorities one more time. Thanks. Could I add one thing? Sure. And that is, I think, neutral action with respect to affordable housing and development. It's shifting the focus of development onto the transit overlay zone. In other words, where interim zoning doesn't apply, that's the ideal place for affordable housing. So all of a sudden we have all of this part of the city that for the protection of open space, you've done this action and we're not arguing with it, but what we're saying is it has an impact on where development is going to take place while interim zoning is in effect. That has a negative impact if we don't do inclusionary zoning on more affordable housing. And so it's not a neutral action. Megan and then Tom. With regard to the calendar, I just wanted to report on the few things I didn't report from the CCRPC meeting last Wednesday. The other big agenda item was the 2050 transportation plan. And right now our exit 14 is really a pinch point that they would like to focus on for the 2050 plan. And they show that if we were to expand the number of lanes at exit 14, that then the pinch point would move to exit 12, exit 13, exit 15, and exit 16. So that's just to show you a little bit what's coming at us. They also project a 25% population increase for the county. But with regard to the calendar, December they're going to be holding an information session for the players in these towns and cities on housing trust funds. And in January we'll be on inclusionary zoning. So it seems to be in the air. If we, but more than in the air, it seems to be something that, you know, people will be working around. If we were to spread, let's do the conservative 60 to 80 hours and let's say it doesn't have to be done by Christmas. But if it could be done by the end of January or the beginning of February, that would be something where you could include some discussions. That's, and maybe if it's only one piece or a few pieces of it, it would go down to 30 hours. I think that there is something to, you know, to be gained that is valuable. My question is very related. So just to build on to that poll, we need another poll. And I'm under the impression that in the past we have contracted with CCRPC. We've had Dan Albrecht. Are there other polls that we can contract for as we put so much pressure on you, both time-wise and workload-wise, that could help us do more in this nine-month timeframe? Any offers to have time and expertise? It is possible that we could get some assistance through the Regional Planning Commission. We've had an initial conversation with them. They have some staff who have experience in this, I'm not going to say inclusionary specifically, but in these realms of subject areas. And so there is some possibility there. We haven't gone any further than to sort of have the preliminary conversation. I think we were having it with respect so far to the work products that the Council has asked of us most recently with the TDRs and the Open Space and the PUDs and the Economic Analysis piece. We can certainly continue that conversation. I can't make a commitment on other parties' behalf, but I appreciate the compliment, but I'm not so unique in this world to say that I'm the only person. I just think of Dan Albrecht. He's worked for us before, and he's with CCRPC, right? We've contracted out. He brought him in house, and he's helped us a lot because he understands the city, the municipality, the laws. We've worked with a few different staff members there. We've worked with him. We've worked with Regina Mahoney, who is a staff member there, formerly the planning director of Milton, Lee Crone, although Lee is now otherwise occupied in Shelburne. I guess one of my questions is my, I had thought, I don't know as I ever saw all the recommendations, and you probably sent it to me, Sandy, and I didn't read the 20 pages, but. No, we didn't. We didn't, okay. But my understanding is that the Affordable Housing Committee really has developed the, or maybe I'm wrong, but the ordinance language that you would need. And there's a lot of expertise on that committee. Yes. About inclusionary zoning, and what those ordinances look like. And we have already incorporated inclusionary zoning in our form-based code. So we have gone through that, I guess, experience of, or learning curve of looking at the language and making sure it says this is how you include or incorporate inclusionary zoning in development. I mean, we have it in city center. So I guess I'm curious how difficult it is to expand that. I mean, I don't know what it takes, but it seems like if you already have 15 parts of an ordinance in form-based code that says if you're going to do, you know, if you're going to build here, it's going to have inclusionary housing. And this is what, these are the percentages, and this is the, you know, levels of income and blah, blah, and these is how you get out of it, or you build it somewhere else or something. We have all that already incorporated in our ordinances, or LDRs. So how difficult is it to say, not only will it be applicable to city center, but it's also going to be applicable to, you know, the transit overlay district. I guess that's, I'm sort of when you say 60 to 80 hours, that's a lot of time. You know, two full weeks of every moment of your time, and we've already done it once. So help me understand. I think that's a great question. You're correct that the committee has put a lot of time and effort and has a draft that is there. The draft has been initially reviewed by the commission, and they had some good and challenging questions related to it. We haven't yet done any kind of sort of pushing and pulling as to how it relates to the rest of our regulations. So when it came in, the city center version of it was adopted with a form-based code. So this sort of came together as a complete set. Outside of city center, it is proposed to include a variety of sort of bonus structures and other things. And so how those things interplay with the rest of the regulations is a little bit tricky. I think a significant amount of the time that we're envisioning are both in the public outreach, which is a significant and important component of this and recognizing that it may have strong support in the community. It may be relatively straightforward. There's only, to my knowledge, a couple of other communities in the state that have adopted one. I give a lot of credit to the Affordable Housing Committee and I think tried to be very thoughtful in the way that it's developed when the other two communities adopted it, there was significant feedback on it. And so sort of preparing for that possibility is, I think, important. And then I think that the other aspect of it that's not necessarily so much commission aspect, commission is assessing and then developing the internal structure for how something like this would be managed at the scale. It's one thing to have one project a year come online and sort of work with what does it mean to have affordability components? Who's reporting to who? What systems do we have in place? We're likely going to need to ramp that up to deal with city center effectively over the next year. If this comes in in a short period of time, there's some significant administrative elements to this that may be able to be contracted out, but that is negotiating contracts to be outwards. And so that's sort of all in there in terms of time to make something like this work properly. Although we have had the experience as a community with all of the stuff that Eric Farrell developed near Shaw's. Yes. And the ones that have worked very smoothly and efficiently are those where the housing is managed by an affordable housing organization, such as Cathedral Square or Champlain Housing Trust. The next realm of this will be those projects that may not be necessarily run by an organization like this, and what's the relationship that a normal property owner who is either doing sales or is doing rentals but isn't necessarily an affordable housing specialist developing a clear system so that they understand what they're supposed to be doing so that we can contract potentially with one of these organizations or another one, but making it so that we don't have a curvy cottage, which was its own affordability tool that was in the land records, that was sort of self-managed, which a circumstance that we never envisioned ever would come up came up about the buyout. But the fundamental challenge before the airport issue was that the developer wasn't an affordable housing person and they were trying to figure out how do I manage it knowing that none of the major organizations want to manage this housing. So that's, as this grows, we're going to need to solve that. It's not a bad thing to solve, but it will take some time to sort out. So it sounds like it's understanding and articulating the bonus, the density bonus, I assume, process outside of City Center because City Center was already pretty dense. I mean, that was the whole point, though. And so we didn't need to do that bonus. It was just a requirement. But outside of City Center where we're not envisioning necessarily four or five-story buildings, maybe we are, but it's that management of the bonus part. As well as the management are those that... I think that those are... I mean, there's some related elements to it, but I think that those are the main pieces in terms of there already is a bonus structure in today's regulations, but that's not necessarily widely known because there's only been two or three projects ever that have made use of it. And so communicating effectively to the community that a more run-of-the-mill project may have more dwelling units than what they might have expected previously. Even though it was allowed before, the structure is encouraging it. So just having that dialogue and understanding implications in neighborhoods for that. And the community you're talking about is the development community? I'm using the term in all senses in terms of residents, neighbors, developers. The neighborhood might want to know. Okay, yeah. I don't know if Paula knows this, but the Fair Housing Project, which is part of CVOEO, has applied for a grant, it's only $1,500, but anyway, from the Vermont Natural Resources Council, and they really do expect to get it. And the sole purpose of it would be to hire a facilitator that would work with the city and the community, certainly the Planning Commission, in public education around inclusionary zoning and the need for more housing at all different price points. So, and we're supposed to hear about that in this month. And the time period for that would be January, starting January 1st. I'm not sure if John had communicated that to Paul, because the money wouldn't come to the city, it would come to the Fair Housing Project. That's great to hear. We would get a person who would come to our meetings and help us. And I just, the only other thing I wanted to say was, I wasn't aware that Hinesburg had a problem. Did they have a problem when they implemented inclusionary zoning? My understanding, this is a little while ago, my understanding was that at least initially that some national advocacy was sent, came into Hinesburg on the subject. That may or may not be the case here. I'm just sort of preparing that public hearings sometimes are really fast and sometimes they're not. I just want to add that Burlington has been around I think for 30 years and they just have gone through a review process which included developers and advocates and city people and their report came out last July and they proposed some tweaking, but for example, people expected them to, their inclusionary goes in at five units, ours is 12. People expected that to be raised. Now they made some tweaking around smaller developments, but the recommendation is to keep to five and overall they want to keep going with inclusionary zoning. So I mean the real push was I think 30 years ago when they took a while to people to grasp it because they were the first in the state. I think as far as the public, we do want to get the word out and people better understand what's meant by affordable housing, at least in the context of South Burlington. The inclusionary zoning that our committee has designed is really aimed at a middle group of people within say between 80 and 120% of median depending on whether it's the lower end would be the rentals, the higher end for single family housing. The median income for this city is right around $70,000. So you can do the math. We're not talking about, you know, others, we're talking about us and we're talking about, you know, our employees of the city are talking about the school, the hospital, people who are in business in the community or people who work in the retail. So it's really, you know, when you think about a development, let's say, and 15% of that development is going to be affordable for that particular group, I would really challenge someone who lives there or observes this development to say, oh, those are the people who are living in the affordable housing. I mean, we've geared this so that the developer isn't going to lose a whole lot of money on each affordable unit. They might break even and they make it up in other ways with their other units, but we're really not talking about a charitable outreach here. We're talking about trying to accommodate people who actually live and work in their community. It's the same thing that happened after World War II and they built all the houses out in the Chamberlain neighborhood and then over on the southwest side of the city where I live, a lot of housing got built for people just like the people that we're talking about who have a job, have some ambition, raising a family and want to live here. And so I think we do have a job of convincing the public that this is important. But I think a job that's accomplishable and I don't think there's going to be a whole lot of pushback. The pushback will come in the southeast quadrant and places where people are afraid of being built. But in the part of the city that we're talking about tonight, density is already a fact of life. If that density gets added to, we just want to have some component of it affordable to these people, our backbone of our economy. I tend to believe that there would not be a lot of public resistance to this part of the city being targeted for this inclusionary zoning. There might be concern and need for information that I fully expect, but I just can't expect that this would in any way contradict what we're working on with regard to interim zoning. I'm just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that this isn't an important project. I'm just trying to be realistic in terms of the time. So there may not be opposition, but there may be a lot of questions. Questions are appropriately provided to us and answering questions takes time. We have a very talented committee and we would be available to answer those questions. We'd be available to tweak our draft as things go forward. We'll work very closely with the Planning Commission. I really want to follow up with what Tom reminded us about Charlie Baker's offer for staff time and expertise. So I think this is something that we could maybe think about seriously, at least to a point for some preliminary vetting. I mean, they have it on their docket. They have two programs coming up in December and January. So with a staff person, it's not Dan Elbrecht, but a staff person who's been appointed, the point person on this. Let's take advantage of our wonderful reputation that Helen commented on. So I support this. I'm just sensitive of Paul's time and I want to find him resources to help him in this press time period. Well, I think that's a very valid point. I think we're all supportive. If we hadn't passed interim zoning, this would be a priority to get moving on pretty quickly. The question is how best to integrate it. If we can get some extra help to get a jumpstart on this and at least make a little bit of progress and know what eyes we've got, a dot and t's we've got across. And then from there, see what can be integrated into the work that's being done on interim zoning that we were requested. I think that's probably the best route to go. I have to agree with, you know, I think we all have to agree with Tim that, you know, we set up, we passed interim zoning instead of a set of responsibilities. We can't now do anything to interrupt that momentum. It's got to go quickly. So if this can get some extra assistance and get moving at the same time, so much the better. You know, a reasonable plan. If did Paul find it to be reasonable to reach out? I mean, I know you mentioned it as well as a possibility, but do you find it reasonable with regard to what you're looking at here over the next? I mean, I think we, as I said, we have already been in, or they've been in communication with us. They initiated happily with regards to the interim zoning studies. I can't speak for how much time nor what expense that would be to us, but we're always happy to communicate with partners. And that may increase our capacity some. I don't want to pretend that it's a net zero to everybody though. It's, adding this as an equal priority will likely have some effect on the timeframe of all the other side. I don't think it's reasonable to, I don't think it's fair to everybody to say that it'll have no effect. We'd be able to mitigate some of it, but... Yeah, you're right. We can't do that. That's not right. Jim? Well, I don't know that we become hypocrites. I think that's a little bit strong, but I think that if we act reasonably in order to both meet the challenge that we set before ourselves and the various committees for the interim zoning, in addition to making sure that the development that occurs during this interim zoning period meets our goals, our overall goals. I think that that's a reasonable... Oh, yeah, absolutely. ...not acting hypocritically, and finding a way to mitigate some of the pinch points, I think, would be, you know, something to really explore. Yeah, I agree. So, I have a direct question for the committee, and that is, do you have locations of future projects that you think you need to have this in place before they even come in for pre-live? Well, we have land that's large tracts of open land that's for sale right now. I don't have any specific projects, but when something is for sale... The knowledge of people that are interested in starting projects on those open tracts of land that you think that this should be out of the... I don't. I don't know what the Sandy does. No, but I haven't been seeking out that information either. No, the point I'm getting at is that if you know of something that you think is on the radar and it's a big nugget of gold that you want to mine, you know, you don't want to tell us what it is right now, but that's the kind of thing that I'm asking, like, you know, because of the transit overlay district, outside of city center, I mean, city center is where the construction is going to happen over the next, you know, three, four, five years, right? But there are going to be pockets in other areas, too, that are going to happen. Zend Gardens, right? It's all for sale. That's going to be, I mean, that's proposed. I don't know if that'll actually happen, you know, in those smaller size apartments, but... No, it's all for sale. All of that land going down on Haniford Drive, all for sale, signs out and everything. So I don't, and most developers, I mean, if anybody would know on our committee, it would be Mike, but most developers keep things pretty quiet, and then all of a sudden, there they are. Right. And so I don't have, have not heard of anything specific. That doesn't mean it won't happen tomorrow. So let me then redirect a question to Paul. Like, as I said before, is there some aspect of this that we could strip down just one particular thing that applies to one kind of a PUD that we could push into the planning commission to evaluate at the same speed that they're doing the PUD work? Because I think that the big return on, the big ROI here is on those big PUDs with those big apartment buildings. I think that's what you're talking about, because you're not talking about 30 single-family homes, you know, along Shelbert Road, because I don't think that's going to happen. If we could have 30 single-family homes, I'd love it, even if they weren't affordable, you know, because we need more single-family homes. Without going into the specifics of a draft regulation here in the meeting, there may be a couple of areas in there that are more complex than others and maybe less likely than others. I don't know if you want to get into any of the specifics of it, but it's possible that there are some elements that it's probably not a geographic, it may be a type of development. That's possible. I haven't had any conversation with any of the committee members about that idea, so I don't want to... They know it more intimately than I do, so I wouldn't want to speak on their behalf, but I think there is some possibility for that. I haven't thought through whether there'd be any unintended consequences of taking some parts out of it, but it's possible. Yeah, I get it. This resolution language would charge you to explore that very item that you just were circling. Yes, no? This is the Affordable Housing Committee that proposed this. Resolution says to work with the Planning and Zoning Department. Expeditious adoption of the resolution. The language is soft and it empowers you. I'm just, again, protective of your time. We are asking a lot of Paul Conner and his team. What does the council want to do? What's the advice we want to give? Can the Affordable Housing Committee go directly to Charlie Baker and say, you know, we've got this resolution, we're trying to do this stuff? I think that would probably be better done at the administrative level because we're having discussions with them on the interim zoning studies, so to ask about one group's asking about one and one another. Does it add too much to your work to include this as part of one of your conversations with them and really push for some expertise and support to be able to implement some inclusionary zoning in the transit overlay district? I mean, it's one of their goals. They were annoyed that we passed interim zoning because we're supposed to be the birthplace of all homes for Chippenden County. So maybe they would be willing to incentivize or move forward with affordable housing in at least a big sloth of South Burlington. I was just going to say, one of the things I had mentioned to Jessica was that we would, this committee, John and I had talked about this, but he was on vacation when I talked with Jessica, that we would have three of our members work with three planning commission members and we could do that outside of regular planning commission meetings and get that out of the way. But at that point, they didn't feel they had clear enough guidance from the council about where inclusionary zoning. So Jessica said, it's not the point, this isn't the right time to talk about that approach, but that is an approach that John and I had talked about and had been communicated to Jessica. So we're definitely willing to go the extra mile to make it less burdensome. And I do think the committee has a good presentation with the Regional Planning Commission. So Paul, can you add that to your dialogue with them? Sure we can. Without disrupting your entire workload? Paul can just work more. I say that tongue in cheek. We're all on the same page, I think. We need to work on this, but we only have so many people so I think yes, if you include that in a conversation and see what their recommendation and thoughts are, maybe you can report back in two weeks as to where we are with that. And then we'll, I think we just keep talking about it until we figure out a formula for being able to integrate this into our plan as soon as possible and using whatever outside resources we can one way or another. And maybe we'll get to a point where there can be a subcommittee that works with your affordable housing committee and a few planning commission members. I think we need to keep this on the, you know, on the front burner and not let it fall off and just see how we can work it in but recognizing, Tim said initially, we can't derail the priorities that we established because that's going to be counterproductive. We got to get this done in nine months. We could certainly bring, have a communication and come back with whatever the regional planning commission would be able to help us as resources and a game plan for what that could look like. Let's see where we are. I think that's good. So you're suggesting, David, that then when we get that feedback, then we'll move ahead with some kind of direction for the plan commission. We'll try and figure it out from there. And that'll be a couple of weeks. That's not, you know, and that we keep this right in the front of our minds as the other piece that we got to figure out without, without killing everybody. Okay. Before you arrived this evening, there was a comment, I guess, Tim had been to a planning commission meeting and he was concerned that the planning commission wasn't digging in quite fast enough. And that was just an impression. I mean, because I don't put a lot of planning commission so I know that you have an initial waterfall to follow up with, right? So that's some of the groundwork to move. But I wanted to see people with hammer's and picks going right into the UD. And I think that that's the direction they've given us from here forward. I think what's happened over the last few months is that with a number of projects, they've seen PUDs and then seen something else and then seen PUDs and then seen something else. And so knowing that this was now a very top priority, this last meeting was a little bit of a here's the universe and launching. And I think they gave us very clear direction towards the end of the meeting of what they're looking for in terms of how they want to move forward in any of this matter. Great. Yeah. Okay. I didn't mean it as a criticism. No, no, it's a great question. No, I appreciate that. That's our concern. In the same conversation, how many subcommittees are there? There's one for this Open Land. PDRs, Open Land and the PUDs. Well, yeah. And they're going to work on the PUDs, which are related. So have the members of those two other subcommittees been? The commission has nominated folks for both. And those per Kevin's email, you're going to be discussing intermediate on the 17th, the appointments from all the committees. Okay. So you'll get. We should be able to finalize it then is what you're, what you're saying. That's what was, that was the calendar slated for you. So the commission has nominated their folks. And they can start. And they can start. Yeah. I think it's important as, whether you're talking with folks or whoever, that they understand that this isn't going to get done in regular, every other meeting sessions. They're going to probably need some, you know, a retreat or two or a couple of half day Saturdays or full day, you know, weekend sessions in order, if we're going to get this done, it's got to be people who are really willing to, to put some strong effort into it. Because on a standard schedule, it's not going to get done. So I just wanted to make that. They're volunteers. I know. December 25th. Good morning to work on it. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think the night before would be better. Yeah. No, I, I'm fully aware of that. But, but we kind of decide to tackle this. And I would think there are enough people out there that have indicated they care enough about it. That there should be people that say, yeah, you know, for the, for a series of time, I'm going to put in some extra time. We're going to get this done. I think we should cater any extra meeting for them. So, I believe you're already on record saying. Yeah. It's important. You got to feed them. Do you have a side catering business? I don't. Maybe I'll open one. I think that's a valid point. Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, thanks Paul. Thank you. And one, one quick question. Sure. Since you're here and it's not quite on this topic, but Megan had a question earlier about. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you Paul. Just since you're here and Tom recommended that we ask you directly. In October, you presented us with kind of a draft schedule for addressing the council giving us an update on the sustainability efforts. And I just wanted to know, I'll be here about how you are overbooked, but is there perhaps then just, for me to know, because I do receive emails about it too. Is this something that is going to wait until. So, since that time, Kevin and I and, I want to say another staff first, maybe Alana attended a meeting of the energy committee. It was a great meeting. In that meeting, one of the principal outcomes of it was to set up a regular time when key staff and a couple of liaisons from the committee will meet. So our first one of that is going to be next week, I believe. I'm not sure if you're in that Tom next week or the week after to start to develop the, some of the things that I had been talking about with you all about what is, what does an action plan look like? What does it mean to do an annual report? How do we integrate sustainability and energy subjects into our day-to-day decision making? So that's, that's the principal action that we're taking. I think realistically having a proposed plan at your next meeting is probably pushed out based on the adoption of the interim zoning and these other priorities. Not, not for lack of interest, but for being realistic. Okay. Okay. I'm, I'm very glad to hear though about these meetings happening. Yeah. We are too. Yeah. I'm thrilled that we just put in last Friday the, the grant that you had okayed earlier, I guess last month now for the charging stations at the new city hall library. Everybody was on pins and eels to see whether the voters were going to approve the site. So the voters approved the site and now we submit to the grant and we think it's a really, it's a very competitive grant, but we hope that the message of the south Burlington city center that we're developing resonates well. So that's, that's one hopefully very visual element of this. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. All right. It's a little after nine. Do you want a five minute break? Sue. Okay. So we'll have just take a quick break and come back to the resolution establishing the recreation foundation and parks, recreation and parks foundation. Thank you. Do we have any, Tom, do we have any changes to that resolution? We're going to read it. Okay. I'd like to call the south Burlington city council back to order on Monday, December 3rd, 2018. We're at item 10, a resolution establishing or creating a recreation and parks foundation reserve fund. Talk about that. Okay. Tom. Yeah. I had, thanks Helen. I had the pleasure of meeting with the recreation and parks foundation folks. And we discussed a few options of whether or not to file status with the state for a five on one C3 or set up a separate foundation and be able to have the city become the swore, the depository for the monies by setting up a separate reserve fund. And we thought for this purpose, since it's worked well for other similar kinds of activities that this would be the way to do it, maybe the simplest way to do it is still tax deductible for people that would contribute towards it. So we have worked up a resolution here and officially kind of named it the recreation and parks foundation fund. And David, I don't know if you want to add to that or Jennifer. I think the only thing really to add is that we got into this project and started to create the recreation and parks foundation. That was Maggie Luger initiative to get that going in anticipation that we want to raise money at some point for an indoor recreation facility. As we all know, we have zero indoor recreation space at all. And this is going to be what, you know, and if we can make indoor recreation space happen, it would be great for the city. And that putting this foundation in place would give us the mechanism to raise money privately to help fund part of the project, which as Jennifer knows and for the rest of you folks, it's moving ahead with design. And in cooperation and working with the existing obliquiae at the rinks, you know, the rink board is excited about the prospects as well of having a major facility there with the recreation offices, the new recreation facility, the new common entryway to the rinks. They become quite a, for lack of a better term, a spectacular complex, it really would be awesome. And so this makes more sense because to go through, it's not only the dollars of creating a 501C3, it's the requirements on an annual basis to keep the IRS happy, and we can do it just as effectively with a special account. So that's what we're proposing to do. Do you have anything else to add or is that covered? Well, our accountant, Please don't identify yourself. I'm Barbara Cookman. I'm Secretary of Recreation and Parks Foundation and Chair of Recreation and Parks Committee. We were told by the accountant it would be $3,000 just to apply and we're a small committee and most of us are putting in time and didn't have $3,000 to come up with. So it was great to have Tom come to our meeting and to suggest this. It presents a process for accountability, basically, of separating the funds from the city budget, setting up a separate fund for it, and it will be tax-deductible and it will allow for accounting of how the money comes in and where it goes. So that was basically what we were interested in doing, making sure that we can go out there and we can say to people, you know, if you donate money to this, we will make sure that it goes where you intended to go. And there is one typo in the third paragraph. In the second line, it should be Recreation and Parks Department. I tried to make it consistent throughout, but I missed that one, so. Recreation and Parks Department. The third paragraph. The third whereas? Yes, the third whereas. Raise funds for the Recreation and Parks Department to include funding. There's also a typo in the second resolution that all money placed in this reserve fund not is. Okay. Miss that. The only other thing I had is this red tape. If you have a 501c3, then you have to warn your meetings and you have to take minutes at all your meetings, which we do anyway, but there are specific times that the IRS sets out a very stringent process because they really want to make sure not for profits or not for profits. And it just, it was going to be onerous and so this will work much, much better. So that's what we're going to do and I'll make the motion that we approve this and move forward. Second. Before we vote, Michael would like to say something. Mike Seminole Foundation member. It looks like you're all pretty much on board and that's great. But this will also facilitate motivating other people to look at some of our other assets and supporting them as well, too, if they want to. So under what is something, you know, that you can see and I think there's a gentleman here in the audience this evening who's, you know, has some interest maybe in supporting that. So this is a great way to promote our park assets and to promote support and philanthropy in the community across the board. The indoor rec center is front and center right now, but there's opportunities with our other assets for us to promote them and for people to step up and to do that. So it's a great idea. Great point, Michael. Thank you very much. That's for sure. Just as a footnote to that, the Half-Sent Conservation Fund allowed, I think the bond for that was 1.3 million and when that task force got together, they listed priorities in sections of the first, second, third priority, 4.5 million. And so there, we have a lot of ideas about how we could enrich our open space land, our park land and have to prioritize. So this, I hope, will help some with that, too. Great. Thank you. Okay, we have a motion that's been moved and seconded. Further debate? Nope. All in favor of supporting this resolution? All by saying aye. Aye. Great. Moving on to number 11. I'll have a new signature page for the next meeting. Okay, great. This is a discussion of possible action related to the distribution of social services funding. And I think everyone received an email from Tom. I tried to print it and I have a heck of a time printing emails. So I have my phone on so I can read it. Yeah, me too. Thank you. So the committee's thoughts about this. We have $15,000. At least that's what's sort of proposed for the current fiscal year. And I guess we tasked the administration to come up with some ideas and they did. And I guess I... Easily spend more than $15,000 on those ideas. Oh, sure. That's the challenge. Is the United Way Fund Chittenden County only? The United Way is also... Our current United Way includes Franklin County. I believe. But it does. I think it's Chittenden Franklin United Way. And Grand Isle. And Grand Isle. Northwest Vermont. Right. That's kind of a recent expansion. Well, what they did was they joined with the group up there. They are also not specific on exactly where their money is going. They used to list all the entities to which their money went. And they no longer, they just get categories. Because I got their big promotional thing the other day. So I tend to think we should use our money for our benefit of organizations and entities that are specific to South Burlington. I mean, I think that's, it's our money. As close as we can. It's our community. As close as we can. As close as we can. As close as we can. Okay. So I'm not looking at that right now. How many of those were... Well, I mean, the funds to Howard Mental Health were, we could direct to supplement the outreach program for mental health counseling services on nights and weekends, specific to South Burlington. The Recreation Department is a new thing. I think that's great. Yeah. To assist the scholarship opportunities for families that I think is sort of related to our desire to have kind of different buckets. And one was families contributing funds to Common Roots, which is a holy South Burlington organization. Right. And they do the farming at Underwood and stuff at the Wheeler House and do a lot with the schools. David, you're suggesting maybe not doing anything with United Way. We certainly have the South Burlington employees are doing a United Way funding. So I guess that... But the match is important in some ways sometimes. I mean, I found that very useful to know at IBM when they worked there when, you know, whatever we did, they were going to match. And so then we had a common goal of a million dollars back in the cream days of the 80s and 90s, you know. Well, do we have a target for the South Burlington employees? Do you have a target? So first year we've done it. Well, I see. Well, we could match up to a certain... Yeah, that's what I was going to... A dollar figure. I don't think UVM matches. Does it, Dave? I don't think so. I don't think so either. Yeah. And the participation, I don't know what it was last year, but it's been pretty pit of fall up until, I mean, prior to last year, I think the year before last, it was 7% or something atrocious like that. Is that all? Maybe 10% at the most. Well... One of the two. It was terrible. Is the city... Very difficult. So the city has... Is it going to have its first charitable contribution campaign starting January 1st? Yes. And is it... Are you going to require every employee to at least return a piece of paper, something that says at the very least I don't wish to participate? Yes. Okay, so... There's a... And they have that form all... Okay, so there is a goal of 100% employees to at least, you know, participate, and even if they say I don't want to give anything, but it's completely confidential, right? Right. Okay, so... So that's a good incentive, right? Is it just United Way? Is it just United Way? Do they have the ability to designate through United Way specific agencies? They do. Okay, all right, because they have a lot of agencies in United Way, so... That's why I say the United Way, on the promotional material I got just yesterday, doesn't list any of the agencies any longer. It lists categories of need. Okay, yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know exactly where that's going, but I think... What else was on there, Helena? Was that it? Well, I was hoping... I'm sorry, I read it, but I don't have... Yeah, the Cots and the Food Shelf. I was also hoping to see steps to end domestic violence, I think especially with the events of this year that... Do we have something in South Burlington specific to that? Well, the Executive Director is a South Burlington resident. So... They do serve South Burlington residents. I think some of the money should be used as a match. Yeah, I agree. At least it shows that the city has a commitment to the employees, right? They have a commitment to the county and beyond, right? And the employees are being asked to show some of that commitment as well. So, do you think... Well, maybe we could match it up to a certain... Yeah, we'll match it up to the county. We can match it up to the dollar. Yeah, what if they give a lot of money? Let's pick a number. More than 15,000. Do you want to match 2,000? I mean, it sounds low, but if we have a lot of other things here to look at, I'm just pulling a number out of a hat. We're kind of back to square one, but at least we don't have 25 organizations we're talking about. Well, are people happy with looking at Howard and scholarships for families who can't afford the parks and rec stuff? Definitely, yes. Common routes? Are there any other sources of funding for the rec department? For scholarships? Do they have other sources right now that where people contributed, either anonymously or non-anonymously? The school district gives a little bit through the PTOs for summer programs. Okay. Yeah, but other than that... And then do you want to add the domestic violence? Yeah? I have to say that makes five. So now you're singling out steps to end domestic violence as an individual... I would like... Well, the other four were individuals as well. Yeah. The other four... Well, United Way was not, but I didn't include that. I said Howard, the rec department, common routes, COTS and the food shelf, and domestic violence. That's five things. There are two others I had in mind. I'm just going to put them out there. All right? But the VNA, Vermont Nursing Association, and Visiting Nurses Association... Is a client of United Way, I'm sure. I'm sure they are. Yeah. So that's good to have that knowledge. So with steps. I'm sure steps is too. Is that part of UVM? Oh. The VNA is now part of UVM? No, no, no, no. The United Way... United Way recipient. Contributes to recipient. Yes, they are part of UVM's medical system. So are they still going to get United Way money? Well, that's an interesting point. For the matching, you were talking about just United Way. So matching the United Way contributions. From the employees. So I loved your... What's your point? I loved your 2,000. We have 130 employees. 26 pay periods. So if we did, if we matched 3,380 dollars to just encourage everybody to give a dollar a paycheck. So we get 100% participation. I would support something like that. What's your number? If they give a dollar a paycheck. So that's 26 bucks a year. So a dollar a paycheck. We match, we double it. We only have 15,000 to spend. So what was your number? Only if they do it. So that would be a maximum exposure of 3,380 dollars. So let's call it 2,500. In that ballpark. Two to three. Two to three. Because we got a bunch of stuff here. And then Age Well is something we've given to traditionally. The Champlain Valley Agency on Aging, which is now Age Well. I can't give to everybody. I know. And I thought we had... I'm just putting it out there. Yeah, yeah. We had talked about some buckets. Yeah. So to skinny it down and cover... Are you done? Those are the two. So if you're saying the VNA is covered, then the Age Well... They are too. Well... Also covered by... I guess it wouldn't hurt us to know who's covered by United Way, would it? Well... I don't know if you're going to find out. Oh, yeah. They've got everybody in there. So let's let... I would say if they're covered by United Way, then we match United Way through the employees and don't give it other... I just want to say one thing, that if we give to United Way, instead of to the agencies themselves, that there's a 7% off the top of what we give to United Way. Oh, is that right? For what? For their internal administration. That's why I give directly now. Interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. They still do good work. Barbara? Barbara Service. Some of which you don't know who I am. But the public may know. Well, they probably do. I'm a little bothered, and this is probably not appropriate for me to comment, but I'm going to say it, and then you can do whatever you want with it, about this thing of requiring people to fill out a form one way or the other. If I were an employee, I would be really bothered by that. It's not recommended that everybody return it. Nobody's penalized if they don't. Okay. That was just sort of because I'm in the same place as Megan is in terms of I now give. I guarantee you we won't get 100% of the forms back. Okay. But it's encouraged to return a form, even if it's zero. Okay. So that people are more committed of the opportunity. Thank you. I feel much better now. There'll be no pressure. Thanks, Tom. There'll be no pressure. I just was thinking about it from an employee standpoint, and it just sort of made my heart skip for a minute. Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it. Well, the age well is there for meals on wheels only. Just saying. I don't know. Well, I mean, this is the age old question. I mean, all these organizations can, you know, use money. They need it. One of the other recommendations was to establish a citizens committee with representation from the council to review and recommend funding options. We had 150,000 be one thing for 15,000. I think we should be able to figure that piece out. Okay. 15,000 is somewhat arbitrary. And what other municipalities do do is they take 0.1% of their total general budget. And for us, I think that worked out to be 50,000. And that's, we used to give about 40 to 50,000. I'm not saying we should give more. Colchester gives nothing. Every municipality does it differently, or at least they have in years past. But I've found in years past that we just weren't doing due diligence enough in deciding who gets this money and who doesn't. And that's why a separate committee, which is what Heinsberg and other municipalities have, they go, they dig into the numbers, they talk to the organizations and they come forward with a recommendation. So Megan, like for one of the last organization you met that I've never heard. Age Well. It's Champlain Valley Agency and Age Well. How much money would make a difference to them? Anything. Yeah. I think anything. $1,000. So why don't we just go down the list and decide what we're going to, we'll match to 2,500 with the employees for United Way because we should show some support for the city employees. Now let's just go down the list and decide how much for each other one. And if at the end of the list, we've eaten up 15,000, then we're done. And if not, we'll go back and re-allocate a little more. Let's just get it done. Sound all right? Okay. So what was the first $2,500 match United Way? That's one. Yeah. What's the next one? Howard Mental Health, go back to the top. Yeah. How much do you want to give Howard Mental Health? It's for additional hours for the next few things. So I don't know how much. What is an hour cost? Yeah. I mean, do you know? It's $40. $40 an hour? Do we want to just call it 5K or 3K? Because we have other ones. Right. You know, I was just trying to get a sense of how many weeknights with that in our weekends, you know? So 50 hours would be $2,000. Right? Let's put $2,000 down. $2,000? Sure. And then for the rec department, put down another $2,000? $2,000. Sure. That's very much our own. $1,000? We already give them a lot of support. This is... No, this is that. This is it. The owners get no... They use the land. I mean, we... They use the land. The wheelerhouse. The wheelerhouse. Do they pay a rent for the wheelerhouse? Or is that... They pay the utilities. They pay the utilities. They're portioning the utilities. Okay. And they've been fixing it up. They've applied for money to put in the... What do you call it? The fire... The sprinkler assist. Sprinkler and alarm. Let's just go $2,000 through. And where do we land? Yeah, well, we come $2,000. But $2,000 in each and where do we land? Okay. That's it. So $2,000 to COTS or the food shelf? I mean, they're working on developing a food shelf in South Burlington. That's great. The faith communities. Can we specify the money go towards that? Yeah. They establish it yet? I don't know. We're filing the 501c3. Oh. So this is for next year? So, yes. So rather than... Or do you want to give to COTS too and our local food shelf? Yes, I think so. Let's give to our local food shelf. Yes. It might be the first one to... $2,000 to the New South Burlington food shelf, right? $2,000 to COTS? Yes. Sure. What's the next one? $2,002 steps. Sure. $812. $246,812. We're at $145. $500 the steps were done. I mean, to age well, we're done. So, VNA, you think it's covered with UVM? Okay. So, age well is $500, and then that takes us to... I'm sorry, I forgot what age well does. Age well is Meals on Wheels? It keeps seniors independent living. I wish we'd given more than $500. I think so. I'm thinking we cut in half the $2,000 to $1,500 and $1,000 or something. What to COTS? Maybe. Maybe we don't give... Because COTS gets supported by lots of other communities. Lots of communities. So, what did we have for COTS? $2,000? Yeah. So, why don't we cut that to... Pick a number. $1,500 or $1,000? $1,000 and give $1,500 to age well. $1,500 to age well. That's better, right? I think we have a lot of seniors in our community. That's for age well in South Burlington. Well, they have a lot of clients in South Burlington. Okay. Tim? The problem I have with common roots and the water source for Underwood is that, I mean, the Parks and Recs has been working on creating the vision for Underwood. They probably will want at some point to put some sort of a structure that's pretty far away from Nolan Farm Road. They're going to have to run water to it, right? My fear is that if they just put some kind of measly little water line in... And I don't know what kind of water line they're talking about, whether it's just a hose that travels from Nolan Farm Road all the way down with some spigot that they have a water meter on. But really, if you want water serviced on Nolan Farm Road, that should be fully engineered. It's going to be expensive and put it at eight feet below the surface. Well, we can specify the $2,000 go to their outreach and educational efforts at Wheeler House or additional improvements to that building and not support the water source. Well, Wheeler House exists and they're working on it. So $2,000 will go a long way to helping that project along, right? Tim's right. The water source is going to be in probably eight to $10,000 range. Is there a hydrant over there? I think they would cut off the road, but they would have to pipe it over, put the spigot on and be able to kind of blow that line out at the end of the season. Right, right, right. Your suggestion is just dedicate the money to specify the money to the Wheeler House for improvements to the Wheeler House. Why not? However... We're not giving out a whole lot of money. Yeah, I don't want to constrain them. Yeah, I would just let them do it. I didn't see the other words there. I just saw that... Okay, so if we got it, I move that we distribute $15,000 according to Helen's list. A second. Any further discussion? All in favor? Aye. Done. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Happy Hanukkah. Happy Kwanzaa. Everybody's appreciative of the little bit that we're helping. Yeah. That's all. All right. Update to our conflict of interest and ethics. Second. Second. All in favor? No, I have a question. I do. So, my only question is, under Article 3, it identifies who it applies to. And it lists, as of the date of this adoption, all the committees. And I just was... It seems like there ought to be language that says... And any additional committees that are created. Don't you think? It says all individuals. So the sentence before, yeah. So you think that's... I just wanted to make sure. Oh, finally. We're creating a bunch of little committees here and there. Yeah, you get your point. But I think the language is encompassing of all future committees. You can identify yourself. Manda. So my only concern was Article 3, whether that captures or has language that includes, in the middle of the year, if we create an interim zoning committee or something, that it's covered. And my fellow counselors believe that the first sentence covers that. I just wanted to make sure. Second sentence. First and second. First and second. Right. I think the last sentence, as of the date of adoption of this policy, is just naming who exists at the time of this. But it's not saying that it's not exclusive. Okay. All right. That was one of my concerns. Did anyone else have any thoughts? I mean, I... I think it's great. I love it. It's from the model policy from the Secretary of State. I have a question, but I don't want to waste our time tonight. And it's not going to change anything. So I'm not going to ask it. Ask the question. The question. I hear Shelburne has an ethics committee that they refer conflicts of interest issues to. I don't want to flesh out language on having another committee to deal with ethics issues. But I'm curious if the model policy, if you touched upon any notion of such a... If, say, Tim accused me of having a conflict of interest, I disagree. We could then refer to another body, ethics, who would then render a judgment, and then we would factor it in. Well, one question. It's...although maybe the Secretary of State worked on it with, but it's the Vermont Lincoln City's in town. And then we adapted it for the city of Southburn Lincoln. And right now, there's a... I see your point. There's a different procedure in this proposed. And so if... Are you asking whether it's a possibility to have... That's why I didn't want to ask it. I see that as how other communities do it. And I didn't see that in this policy. And I'm guessing it wasn't in the model policy, but... I don't think we need another committee. I think we've operated pretty well up to now as a body. Again, they wasn't asking because I want the committee. I just wondering if... Oh, but it's worth bringing it up. There are other communities who don't have that. I'm thinking of... I can't even remember their names. But so it's just a different way of doing it. So... Yeah, I'm good. Yeah, thank you. All right. Is everyone okay with this as presented? Yep. All right. So I'll have a motion to approve. Oh, we do? Second. Oh, in a second. So we're discussing... Okay. Ready for the vote? All in favor? Aye. Aye. Okay. Any other business... When's your Christmas party? I thought we'd get a Christmas party every year. In years past, we would do something for staff mid-week between Christmas and New Year's. Are we going to do that this year? We'd buy lunch and... Talk about it at the next meeting. I'm never here because I always go out west to be with my kids at Christmas. So that is always a disappointment to me. I'm just wondering maybe it would be fun to do something in January for the New Year. I mean, everyone gets all partied out over December. I'm just saying, you know, maybe there's too many little luncheons and cookie swaps and... We'll have a little... I don't know. How about a aerobics party? Aerobics? What the heck made you say that? We could have a yoga party. We just... It's over here. It's over here. It's over here. It's over here. It's over here. It's over here. You know, Christmas and holiday time. There's going to come in your little 1980s, you know... I don't know. That's past and gone. I think it would be very nice to have that. We can discuss it at our next meeting if you want. Let's have a counselor cookie contest at our next meeting. We each bring cookies in and Sue judges who has the best quality cookies. Well, I will tell you... And what's the prize? Get all the cookies. Get all the cookies. If you want to try and sit... We pass them out to the audience. Okay. Are we done with... Next week. So... Next week. Motion to adjourn? So moved. All in favor? Send us your times for next week. How much for your next meeting? Where? You've got to check out the new campus perk. Ifshon Hall. Where? Oh, I've got to come down there. We have a coffee shop there now. Are you really? Then I'll meet you down there and I'll just pick a time when I've got a little time, okay?