 Welcome once again, and of course apologies for not being able to conclude the conversation with the ASU president. We hope that we can bring that back sometime this week. Our next conversation is moving to Barnau State, where the leaders in Barnau State have welcomed repentant terrorists and a program to accept them back into society. It was one of the things also discussed on this platform yesterday on PLOS Politics. We're bringing that back this morning with Mr. Opponabe Inko Taria. Good morning. Thanks for joining us, sir. Good morning. Great to see you again. Now let's get into this. There's numerous views concerning this. It's actually just two sides of the coin. Either one person says this is completely mind-blowing that anybody would even consider repentant terrorists and welcoming them back into society, and they should instead be jailed and made to face the full wrath of the law. That's one side. There's also those who say that, well, seeing the peculiarities with regards to Andreas fight against terror, you can't necessarily jail all these people, and we have to find a way to ease them back into society, because not even all of them decided to be terrorists. Some of them were forced into it. What is your perspective, Mr. Inko Taria? Well, to me, it is not only idsong, it is song, but the idsong of insanity. To everything that these terrorists are going to or should be forgiven for the sins committed without necessarily any penalty, because that will definitely encourage impunity. I can tell you that the issue of apostasy, that is to say they have repented of their sin, is just been claimed by so-called sympathizers and enablers of these groups. If you recall, before now, Mr. President, before he became a president, had argued that should I give the other Delta military could be given amnesty by former president Yara Dua, then they would do that the Gopaharapubu must also be given amnesty, because there will not be any justification for any discrimination. Forgetting that the two issues are not the same in any material particular. One is a terrorist group, they are bandit, they are those people who have been oppressed, marginalized, the flora and fauna destroyed, sources of livelihood destroyed. They are sentenced to death on daily basis as a result of the financial aid they give. And so, we are so much treated out of their region with little or nothing to show for it. And so, despite all the cries, all their prayers to the federal government, nothing was done. And the best way to command the federal government's attention was to stop the oil exploration and exploitation. This region did not bent its screen on other states, on other people. This region did not, I thought it was a major delta. Now, did not say, this is what you must do, this is how I want you to live. It was an ecocentric war. It was a situation where they needed to save their lives, to save their property, and also to be major beneficiaries of what is taken out of their region. So they are not the same in any way. They did not invest in states, they did not invest in territories, they did not go to kill people like this, this are criminal, this terrorist are doing. So they are not the same. Now, that same person who advocated for amnesty for this person is the same person that is in office today. What do you expect? Of course, it's going to isolate them from persecution. It's going to isolate them from any form of condemnation. And that is what they are doing. So the issue of amnesty, or the issue of imprisonment, that if jailors are filled, our prisons are filled, our colleges are filled, no problem. So what I expect the federal government to do is to release all the criminals in the prison. They should go and raise some of them as their post-trial goats. Some of them as their post-trial pals. Some of them as their post-trial two-twenty thousand era. We are talking about humans, the people that are people who are committed genocide. And you are saying just because the prisons are filled, one of the IGP camps, the federal government has not been able to address the problems of prisoners plaguing the IGP camps. And you are saying you want to release these people and you want to grant them amnesty and really to drive them into the system. No, that is madness. How are you going to really to get them into the system? Well, you cannot address the issues of the IGP camps. Then let us also not be oblivious of what happened to Erupa. Who was attempted this? And trying to, how are you going to bring them into the system? Give them money. They went back. These are criminals. These are graffiti beasts. They can never, ever change. So what is going to happen? They will come in, when they come in, they reintegrate, pretend to reintegrate, then get more apostols, get more people into their, recruit more people into their home, then get a permission on how to tackle finally the final assault on the federal government. And Mr. President cannot say he is not aware of this. He is not very much aware. You know, recently on the sister station, who was part of the war against terrorists, against these bandits. So on your sister station, what I have to say, it is very, very bad. To say that the federal government is aware because some of them are members of the, of the cabinet escrow at the national level. Some of them are in the national assembly. Some of them are in national law. This was said on your sister station. Even the local bandits have come on air to say that the, and they should not just to say, mention those who are, who are behind it. So you can see the, the complicity of the federal government in this whole thing. And they are trying to look for a short landing for this criminal. All right. Hold on Mr. Angutara. Let it go. Let it go. Okay. Yeah. Hold on. I want to, you know, bring in, you know, one, so one of the conversations or parts of the conversation we had yesterday with a security expert, Kabir Adamou, you know, he pointed out that, and it was from a question that I asked, you know, whose responsibilities you really, really should it be to offer forgiveness? Is it those who are in the IDP camps who have suffered, lost family members, lost their means of livelihood, lost, you know, basically the trajectory of their lives because of the actions of these terrorists? Is it those people who are still in IDP camps? Or is it, you know, the Bernou state government and its leaders? And so he pointed out that the persons who of course have, you know, created this conversation about accepting them and bringing, welcoming them back into society and some of all of that are the leaders in Bernou state, traditional leaders and the likes who basically, you know, who could say speak on behalf of the people. So do you think that maybe, you know, there is ways that, you know, in that state, in Bernou state, that there are angles to some of these things that we may not be aware of that has made the leaders feel, well, you know, we don't have any choice and would have to accept these people. They are, you know, still our sons and cousins and fathers. I don't think the leaders in Bernou states are the ones calling for amnesty, calling for forgiveness. Probably the governor. And definitely the treasonous rulers might not want to go against the governor for fear of being dethroned. You know, most of these are governors as ironies. They are dictators. I must commend at this point the Platte state House of Assembly for what it is doing for getting the governor. How many state houses or assemblies would do that? We have that conscience to do that. So I sincerely disagree, because these traditional rulers probably have their cousins, sisters, brothers, elders, nephews and uncles who have been victims of this criminal, this terror that the federal government has used to name terrorists but will name it for a terrorist group. So these people will never off. It is a governor. It is a match. The governor is only just like Gumi. He's only, it is the hand of, the voice officer for the hand of Jacob. The governor is only carrying out the order of Mr. President. Who is the assistant of the governor for this session? That will tell you his predisposition, his inclination, his sympathy. Then again the constitution of our country that best lands in the hands of governor. Mr. President, it is the assistant of the president. Mr. President is calling for amnesty for this same character. It is not the governor speaking. The president is speaking to the governor as he spoke to Gumi. In a moment Gumi has taken that unless amnesty is granted this massacre will go off. Shortly after Mr. President, when he bled to state, said an order, get an order, let's put an order. Imagine order to the military to crush this person. Gumi came out to say, no, unless amnesty is granted, he's going to do an exercise with me. They are just pretending the ground. They are flying the kite. They are just pretending the girls. This is what is going to take place now. So I don't think we need that in Burma. How are you going to explain to a man who is a negative speaker? Don't tell me that we are back at future chief rep. It is one of the things that I mentioned. You have granted amnesty to a man that is responsible for his words. He is an abductor of justice, wrongness of practice. He is not broken through. He is language in jail. So how do you tell me that I am an abductor of justice? This is madness. How do you know to classify? How do you know to assuade? How do you know to assuade the victims? We are not talking of the dead. We are not talking of the dead. Those are the negative speakers as a result of the death that they ask. By this criminal. They will still go back to the same communists only with these eminent beings. You have also told me this every day. We are not the only society in the society anymore. Everybody who has committed crimes with infinity believe that one day amnesty will be granted. And the granted of amnesty will be built in this country. Hold on. It is a very sensitive discussion. And your concerns have been echoed in many other places. A lot of people have said pretty much the same things. It seems very unfair. But there are also those who say there are different angles to some of all of this that might make it difficult. If you also look at the operation Safehaven, the details of operation Safehaven were necessarily just military crushing of terrorists. There are also parts of it that brought about accepting some of these people who surrender, re-inviting them back into society. But something else that I want to mention is our criminal justice system. I want you to speak on this. Our criminal justice system, for a long time, and we as Nigerians have complained that the criminal justice system is ineffective. It takes a long time to prove anyone guilty. Court cases take years. There are people who have been arrested, even before this government who have been arrested for terrorism, that we still cannot point out 10, 15, 20 who have been sentenced to jail or sentenced to life imprisonment or sentenced to death for terrorism. And so there is that lapse in the criminal justice system. Don't you think that's also one of the things that we have to do here? If you arrest all these people, where are you going to put them? The criminal justice system takes too long to find anyone guilty. Well, before I go into that, let me put it in state here that even if you have to consider amnesty for this terrorist, which I'm a bastard, I'm not a bastard, one major precondition to be the release of all those in captivity which he did with that. And to rely on justice, but it's on some level of sincerity, not one criminal being should be left behind by the captors or everybody, not with the release. I haven't said that. Did you show the criminal justice system in this? It's so unfortunate. Not that we don't have the laws. We have the laws. But the implementation has always been delayed. And that is the result of questionable characters in office. Right from the police to the judiciary. You can imagine the completely next party comes from the course of coordinate jurisdiction. And I commend the CJN for inviting the head of justice. Although what do the head of courts do? They should have invited the judges involved because those next party orders were procured. And I have a certain conviction that the judges would have been caught up to have procured those things because there was no need to grant an next party because the rest of the subject matter is not to be destroyed. So what is the rush? We are in the last side of the party. So they are caught up. They are to be invited. They should also be cautioned by the head of court. Now, we don't have a judicial system of justice. That is exactly what we are talking about. A judicial system of justice. And that is simple. Most of these judges take a look. You have a case against one of the lawyers in court. Given the inclination of the government, talking of amnesty, unless you have a job that is strong character, they will keep adjoining. That is if the government has not called you already to discuss. They will keep adjoining so that you don't offend Mr. Governor because you might be the one responsible for your appointment as a judge if you are not qualified to be a judge. So Mr. Incotaria, let's create a scenario. Let's assume that the governor himself... That's what I am trying to create now. This is... There are other judges who don't understand that. Not in one court. They have decided in court to go to the judicial system. Not in one court. So I am trying to tell you what my delay is. I can use the Dasuki case as a very good example. Because I am Dasuki. We are a court abdicated in Cuba like Mr. President said no. He cannot digest that matter of this. Mr. President said no. How can the court do that? Where is guilty? President had added to nothing guilty. So in this case, the governor and president would have to know their innocence. And the hands of the judge might be high. It's a complicated situation. At the time I am going to wait. So the judge might have said the sentence of justice must not go through. The judgment must not be based on the feelings of Mr. President, the dictates of Mr. Governor that has to be based on facts before it. The judge will have that conscience to dispense judgment. It is not because of the judge. Of course we are not going to call the other a current party. All parties must be head. But most times these judges employ these very stupid techniques of longer judgments. And they tell you because you are a judge you can say that this matter will not be a judgment beyond social life. Judge is doomed. But when you are compromise you give longer judgment. And that is the response to opinion condoces. All of the judges of opinion condoces are magistrates are to go to business business in the world to do something. Are they doing that now? There should be some chance of not doing it. Are they doing that now? In order to do condoces to prison. Because most of them are working tire. Most of them are doing it prison. If you have the guards, the others that need them to go. The situation of raping makes it impossible. The judges still need to act when they get the records. The judges still need. So it's a good belief that they believe Mr. President or Mr. Governor suggested in that matter. If the president of Governor suggested. All right. Seems we may have lost Opponabo in Kutaria. The conversation is about Bernou State and its leaders and governor you know discussing and creating a space yes welcome back Mr. Kutaria. Yes we can. Well you know that's why I was saying earlier where the Bernou State governor is very very interested in justice. Because I don't want to put this conspiracy theory out that he is one of those who might be supporting an easy way out for these terrorists. We would instead just lean on to the fact that yes we have issues with our criminal justice system that needs to be fixed. And of course the political will to completely squash terrorism in Nigeria. I think our final question that I will throw at you is you know with regards the Nigerian government and those who have said that if the government was truly serious that they would have won the war against insurgency a long time ago. Do you agree with this and also is because the senate president Ahmed Lawan was in the news a few days ago saying that they should create more spaces for terrorists to repent and insurgents to repent. Do you think that seeing the numbers that have according to news reports come forward as repentant terrorists do you think that that is signs that the Nigerian government is actually winning the war against insurgency? I doubt it. I doubt it. I think two things because we are struggling to two things the media the journalist I have suddenly realized it is no longer business as usual compared to where you have to go as I am going to office who were compromised obviously compromised because even their successors have said the money they cannot even account for the money the equipment possibly bought purchase. And it is confirmed corroborated as well in trying to overwhelm cross list terrorists now is it that though their successors have come to realize that their successors might not show the line of their successors and so the best way is to retreat practically in order to be launched and that's why they are calling for this or they are so called a naveless I know you want to say no, you want to correct it the devil says we can lie booming and cold because you have come out to say he is speaking for them so those are their naveless so they are so called a naveless I told them my dear it is enough look at the minded delta militants and after how long will you be hiding for how long will you be in the forest why not just come out and pay as I said pay why not come out and pay in renunciation of whatever you are doing this is really the society don't believe and agree with Oluwami who said this is an attempt by Buare to full anonymize the country the more we just reintegrate into the system, the more we are going to get combats so in today only 10 persons have our sympathy by the time we get reintegrated and launch again will be estimates of what has gotten another 5 on our side that is the strategy that is to me that is the strategy not that the people are genuinely repented if you talk of those that are your cohorts like you mentioned though that they are cohorts of course that's why we say subject them to the clinical process of the nuclear let them go and prove their innocence and if we know that genuinely whether you are cohorts or not that you are cohorts is not an alibi because you might be caught and eventually fall in love with it that's the truth about it you might be caught but you are doing it unwillingly so then close it and let them be subjected to all those interrogations not just come out and your sins are forgiven like someone has said when you move to FTC all your sins are forgiven I've also seen Miss Angotara I've also seen a few people say that rehabilitation can be done in prison you can also still get to face the wrath of the law but it is no longer called prison that is the whole essence it's all changed from prison to correctional centre that is the whole essence of rehabilitation that's the whole essence although it doesn't make any sense to me whether correctional centre or prison doesn't change anything that is the whole essence so you are just subjected exactly what I've said because you have been put in so simply so let them go to prison when people get their PhDs from prison that is at first because they are after the correctional centre but the bottom line is that the crime was not committed with impunity so it will serve as a deterrent to others otherwise tomorrow people will get up I will kill you I come out and declare as a prisoner and I am sorry and I go to court is that not the position of Anaki that is the position of Anaki after all they have already prescribed the dosage which you have defined ourselves but you told me to define myself so that can you give me a lesson so that can you give me a lesson is that not the position of Anaki is that not the mockery I mean the whole system is in a mess it's paramodal paraplegic the system has collapsed in the morass thinking of what to do and how was that to be but by looking for thinking of what to do it is worsening the problem by its actions and inactions that is where we are today Opponabo in Kottaria always very interesting speaking with you and hearing your perspective on issues truly appreciate your time this morning thank you for joining us and of course looking forward to another conversation soon thank you thank you so much my brother where is my sister no she is not she will be back hopefully by Thursday alright have a good day it has been the breakfast thank you so much for staying with us all through this morning if you missed out on any of these conversations with the ASU president at first and of course with Ms Opponabo in Kottaria you can catch up on our social media platforms pretty simple at PLOS TV Africa on Facebook and Instagram and of course our YouTube channel or PLOS TV Africa Lifestyle I am Osao Gie Ogboa thanks for joining us and have a great day