 We're back from Memorial Day. This is Jay Fidel, and here we're doing History Lens. And it's a given Tuesday at 3 p.m. with John David and HBU History Professor. And today we're going to talk about something that is really up top of mind these days in terms of current events, but we need to have more context on it because it's part of a much longer continuum. It's getting the context on North Korea. John, we need to know the history here. We need to be able to project it forward. We need to make sense out of what's going on. And that includes, of course, North Korea, but it also includes our relations with North Korea, such as they are. And I wonder if you can help us get a handle on how we got to where we are. Yeah, of course. But before we do that, I just want to make a quick announcement if that's okay, Jay. So I just want to say thank you to all of those who have watched History Lens this last year. And this is the end of our first season, and we're going to come back next season with, we'll start with analysis of the history of the Asia Pacific region and what that means for the United States and, you know, in the present day context. And also donate, if you can, if you feel so moved, donate to Think Tech Hawaii and I assume it's right on the website, right? Yeah, I second the motion. And actually it's unanimous. All right, there we go. So high the hence to our website and make a donation. All right, so anyway, so yes. Wow, big topic today. Very important talk to me, of course, on the front burner for the Trump administration and the American people is the question of what happens with North Korea, with their nuclear program, with their relationship with South Korea, with their relationship with the United States. This is a massive topic for such a small country, a country that in its history has been, you know, it's been peripheral. I say it out bluntly then, it's been peripheral in terms of its international relations to the rest of the world. What we find when we look at North Korea historically is that it's been dominated by big powers, by regional powers like China and then Japan and now the United States and Russia, you know, in the Soviet Union in the post World War II period and now China and the United States. It seems to be this place that attracts a lot of the big powers, but of course the big news today is that the Trump administration's Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, is actually going to New York to meet with North Korean adviser Kim Yong-chul, who is one of the elder statesmen of North Korea. He's the head of the Korean Workers' Party. He's a guy who has been very involved in inter-Korean relations. He's apparently a blunt speaker. He's kind of a hardliner and apparently he's going to deliver the message to Pompeo that North Korea is not going to negotiate its nuclear weapons. So it's not going to negotiate away its status as a nuclear weapon power. But nonetheless, you do have this meeting taking place and there's some hope that this high level meeting in New York City will lead to a resumption of the meeting on June 12th in Singapore between Trump and Kim Jong-un. June 12th is less than two weeks away. It's not going to happen, John. Well, it could happen. But honestly, as to what actually will come out of this meeting, I think it looks pretty dark. It looks pretty dim for any kind of progress on the North Korean-American relationship. And certainly what we understand from the reports coming out of North Korea is that they're being very firm on this issue of nuclear weapons. They're not going to give up their nuclear weapons. It's a strange history, excuse the expression, by which they got to be a rogue state this way. They can't feed their people. They use China to bring food in to feed their people. They have no money, they borrow money, and then they steal money. It's stealing money through various high-tech methodologies. And they're good at tech, they're good at cyberterrorism and hacking and all that. They've demonstrated that. And I guess they're good at building weapons or at least spending the money they steal to buy the elements of the weapons from other places like Iran and elsewhere else. And there are only 18 million of them. It's not that many people. They occupy more square footage in the newspapers than they really should be occupying. That's right. So let's take a look at Korea, the peripheral power in history. So if we go back to the late 19th century, which is really when the relationship between Korea, at that time it's one unified nation or empire under the emperor, King Kojong, the Kojong dynasty. And if we go back to that time period and we look at the situation in North Korea, then North Korea is, pardon me, and then Korea, we look at Korea. Korea is being sought after by, well, it's under the Suzernity of China. And it has been for some time, for centuries actually. The Chinese have basically dictated the foreign policy of Korea and their closest relationship domestically is with China. The Koreans have their closest relationship with China. And they also give the most tribute. So Korea was a tributary nation to China, which meant that Korea would send money and gifts to China to kind of keep China happy. And this was a recognition that China was a superior civilization that exercised power over Korea. And they would send tribute three times a year to China, which was very unusual. Most nations in the region would send China tribute once per year. Japan sent China tribute once every three years. So you can see Korea has this... They're pecking water. That's right. Korea has this special, very tight relationship with China. And really a kind of... they're not really independent, especially in terms of foreign policy. So if we look back at the late 19th century, then what you have is a rising Japan. Japan has modernized its military, its economy, its politics, and now it's becoming a regional power. And so Japan has interests in Korea that the Chinese don't like. And in fact, the Chinese and the Japanese actually fight a war over Korea in 1894. It's called the First Sino-Japanese War. And the war is actually fought in Korea and in Manchuria. And the Japanese win this war quite easily against the Chinese who have a decrepit navy and a weak army at this point. So Korea is being fought over, but it doesn't control its own destiny in this time period. Of course, the Japanese go on to become the dominant power in Korea. They fight another war in 1904 against the Russians called the Russo-Japanese War. And that's really over Northern Korea, over who's going to control Korea and Manchuria. The Japanese win that war as well. And eventually the Japanese become an imperial power in Korea. They actually take Korea over as a colony, eventually a next Korea in 1910. So all of Korea, North, South, all of it was a territory of Japan. Was a colony of Japan. So yeah, so if we could bring up a picture of a Korean from that time, a very important Korean intellectual, this guy's name is Hyun Chih-ho. Hyun Chih-ho was actually the illegitimate son of a scholar bureaucrat in Korea from what we would call the Youngban class. This was really kind of the scholar, the literate scholar bureaucrat class in Korea. And Hyun Chih-ho is important because Hyun Chih-ho became the most important intellectual in Korea in the time period between the 1880s and the 1940s. So his time as an important official, he's a young man in the 1880s. He actually goes to the United States, gets a degree at Emory University in Atlanta, and he comes back to Korea, believes that Korea should become an independent modern nation, and tries to start a club called the Independence Club and tries to push this idea that Korea can determine its own future. Independent of what? Japan? Independent of these outside influences of Japan. That's right in China with its power at the core. And remember the whole thing about spheres of influence and about the U.S. and other countries? Trying to get a piece of China? Well, I guess do the same thing with Korea, huh? Yeah, not so much. There wasn't that much interest in Korea among the Western powers. It was really China and Japan who were interested in Korea. China, because historically it had all this influence in Korea, but Japan, because they saw Korea as a pathway onto the continent of Northeast Asia. So they saw Korea as a place that could simultaneously invite them into Asia. Or it could be a sword, a dagger pointed at the heart of Japan, which was how it was described by Admiral Yamagata in the late 19th century. So Japan has this vested interest in what's going on in Korea. Japan supports a Republican government, an overthrow of the monarchy and a Republican government. So does Yonchiho. Yonchiho has connections in Japan. There are Japanese intellectuals supporting Korean rebels in Korea. And the situation is quite convoluted, but what's interesting is, so you have Yonchiho and his generation of intellectuals who are really fighting for Korean independence and Korean modernity. And they're allied with Japan. And then you have the court, the king, King Kojong, and his court, allied with China. And eventually these two just collide. There's an attempted coup in 1885. This results in, pardon me, 1884. This results in both the Chinese and the Japanese sending troops into Korea. And then there's an agreement not to do that again. And then the agreement breaks down and you have the Sino-Japanese War in 1894. We see things happening in the same timeframe in Europe, maybe a little bit off by 10 years ago. It's the same sort of unsettled situation. The same sort of fragmentation and consolidation. And speaking of which, we're going to actually, right now, John, we're going to fragment the show. This is the first part. In a few short seconds, there'll be the second part. Because we're going to take a short break. I'm Pete McGinnis-Mark. And every Monday at one o'clock, I'm the host of Think Tech Hawaii's research in Munna. And at that program, we bring to you a whole range of new scientific results from the university, ranging from everything from exploring the solar system to looking at the earth from space, going underwater, talking about earthquakes and volcanoes, and other things which have a direct relevance not only to Hawaii, but also to our economy. So please try and join me one o'clock on a Monday afternoon to Think Tech Hawaii's research in Munna. And see you then. Hi, I'm Ethan Allen, your host on Think Tech's likeable science show. Every Friday at 2 p.m., we delve in the magical, fascinating world of science. How science applies to your life, why you should care about science, what impact science has on you and on those around you, why you need to know some science. It's a fun, interesting, painless way to learn some good science that you can use. See you there. Ah, you weren't here during the break. You did pick up some of these points. But it's very interesting. You're right. Yunchi Ho was his name. Yunchi Ho, right. And so he sort of changed his mind there as we approached the Second World War. What happened? So the interesting thing about Yunchi Ho is he changes his mind. He becomes enamored of the Japanese. He's okay with, well, he's okay. He's complicated actually. He actually is put in jail for six years because he's accused of plotting to assassinate the Japanese Governor General in 1911 to about 1918. This incident takes place and he's in jail. When he comes out of jail, he converts. He has this, I don't know, an enlightenment or maybe it's a kind of realistic perspective. Maybe it happened in jail. Maybe. It's been a really unpleasant time in jail. Yes, right. I think the jail time convinced him that the Koreans really are not going to be able to resist Japanese colonialism. And so he gets on board the Japanese. He becomes what we call a collaborationist with the Japanese. He supports the Japanese rule in Korea. He believes, I mean, I think there's an argument to be made that the Japanese might be able to modernize Korea outside of Western influence. Meanwhile, they had been very mean to Korea. They had been mean to China, too. It's a brutal occupation by the Japanese. It lasts 32 years, so it lasts a long time. But Yunchi Ho is interesting because he switches sides like this. And at the end of World War II, Yunchi Ho still believes in the Japanese project in the war. He supports Japan in the war against the United States. And so he's still got this kind of pro-Japanese feeling to him. In the present day, Yunchi Ho is seen as an evil guy by many because he collaborated with the Japanese. And there's a very strong anti-Japanese feeling within South Korea where you can get information about this. And Yunchi Ho is on a list of 90, I think it's 94 or is it 99 people who have been identified as actively collaborating with the Japanese before and during World War II. So he's become a kind of infamous guy. What it shows about Korea in the pre-World War II period is that Korea was at the mercy of outside powers. And this is why Yunchi Ho flipped sides so many times because the Korean people could not chart their own destiny. And so they really were dependent upon outside of it. They didn't have any control at all during that occupation. Not much. And all the couple of times the rebellion was put, 1919 rebellion, which was suppressed savagely by the Japanese military in Korea. So Yunchi Ho is an interesting guy. But what happens then is during World War II, of course, the Japanese stationed a large force of soldiers in Korea, in Manchuria, because they're worried about invasion from the Soviet Union. There's about a million soldiers up on the border with the Soviet Union between Manchuria and the Soviet Union. And at the end of the war, then, those soldiers melt away. The Soviet Union invades Manchuria and then invades Northern Korea at the very end of the war. The United States very rapidly sends troops into South Korea so that they don't want the Soviet Union to take over the Korean peninsula. That's right. MacArthur and his colleagues, yes. And what's agreed upon at that point then in August 1945 is that let's divide Korea into a Soviet sphere and Americans. Just like Germany. That's in a way, yes, just like it. So if we could bring up the National Geographic map, this is a map that was used by Dean Rusk and Charles Bonesteel who were on the scene. They were actually in Southern Korea and this truce was being negotiated between the Soviet Union and the United States. And they were asked, they were tasked with finding where the boundary between North and South would be. They looked at this map and they thought, you know what, the 38th parallel is basically in the middle of Korea. It's that line right below Korea Chosun. It's that line of latitude there. That's the 38th parallel. And the capital of Korea, Seoul, was in the south. And so they thought, okay, let's divide things at the 38th parallel. That became the basis for... Don't you love these meetings where these guys who had no real familiarity with the place or the people or the culture and the geography do maps that way. And you know, when you think back to historically, all these meetings where people divided the pie this way, they don't usually work. It doesn't generally work very well. And of course, what's happened is... Well, what happened after that is so you have a north and a south Korea, a government established in the north that's a Marxist government, nominally at least favorable to the Soviet Union, a government in the south that's a democracy nominally that's beholden to the United States. With Singh Min-Ri becomes the first president of South Korea. He's very connected to the political elites in the United States. It's not a democracy at all. He's basically a political party in the United States. We saw it, as everybody else did, as a strategic element in Asia. But we didn't have any history with the South Korea or North Korea. There's no reason they should like us or we should like them. The only thing is we were the conquerors of Japan and they had control over Japan. So we had it as the spoils of beating Japan in the war, am I right? Yeah, we had a tiny bit of history with South Korea, missionary history. There were Presbyterian and Methodist American missionaries in Korea. And some of these missionaries actually participated in the rebellion of 1919. And then they went back to the United States, disillusioned with the lack of support from Americans against Japan. So no, there's not much history there, but there is a little bit of history that's pretty interesting. So you have North and South Korea and they're poised against one another. They hate one another. Both sides agree that the other should be extinguished. And so North Koreans want... They're all Koreans. I could never figure that out. It's in a deep-seated hatred. No, that's right. I mean, even in Germany, there was not that kind of hatred. Yeah, part of it's ideological. It's fomented by the Soviet Union and the United States. But part of it is just that both sides want the other to disappear. So the North wants to control all of Korea. And the South, even after the Korean War, says, look, we're not going to sign anything that doesn't allow us to take control over all of Korea. So that's the goal of both. And that becomes a real problem, of course. It's difficult to negotiate that issue because there's no way to negotiate it. Sure. It's like the Israelis, you know, the mission of the Palestinians is to drive them in the sea and have them all die. And that hasn't changed the same thing here. They want the other guy to go away. That's right. But where did MacArthur come in? He had an argument with Truman. He wanted to go into North Korea, I guess, and vanquish the communists. So, in spring 1950, the Soviet Union gives the green light to an invasion by the North of South Korea. And they offer tanks. So the Soviet Union is pretty deeply involved in this incursion. The North has tremendous success. They penetrate deeply into South Korea. The Americans recognize that this is a real problem. Truman recognizes this as a problem and says to MacArthur, do what you can. MacArthur plans and successfully implements a counterattack, wherein he takes troops and goes north, really Incheon area, and puts troops in at Incheon, their way north of the North Korean army by this point. And so North Korea has to very rapidly retreat. Otherwise, the army will be captured. So then you have this Palmel retreat, where the Americans push the North Koreans right up to the border with China, the Yalu River. The Chinese decide we can't have this. And so they get involved. They send troops across the border, push the Americans south. That's correct. And then the American army is retreating very quickly back below the 38th parallel. And then you have a stoppage in the fighting. And then you have negotiations, truce negotiations. And if we can bring up the map of the DMZ, this is the other... Yeah, so this is the result of the truce negotiations that take place in 1952, 1953, that the DMZ is actually... So it's not quite the 38th parallel. You can see it's kind of a wiggly line. And that's what's established in 1952 as the demarcation between North and South. It's a truce. It's not a treaty. So essentially you still have an ongoing war, simply a truce in the war. The US could never really get together with Russia, because the Cold War was going on. And in effect, the continuing war here was because the US and Russia could never make a truce out of it. No, I don't think so. It was really the North and the South. They were still mad at each other. They couldn't agree to terms. The North wanted a lot of control over the South. The South wanted a lot of control over the North. And so in the end what you have is a truce. You don't have a treaty or an agreement. It's a question of, is either nation really legitimate as it is? And this leads to... You just can't negotiate that kind of an issue. So once again... So you have a truce that is ongoing to this day, to today. There's no treaty. North and South are still in a state of war against one another. Now the South became a democratic kind of country under the tutelage of the United States. The North, however, went the other way. Can you talk about that? Right. So the South became a democracy. It became a very successful economy. If you go to South Korea today, it's an incredibly successful modern nation. It's very impressive, actually, all the things that the South Korean people have been through. Just what that leader wanted back in the 19th century. Right. That's right. Yoon Chih-ho, yes. Right. A measure of independence and modernity. Is he a hero now? No. Remember, he's the collaborator with the Japanese. No. He's considered to be a bad guy by many South Koreans. So in the North, you have this hard-line Marxist regime that decides to isolate itself. And so they don't develop economically. They don't develop a lot of political relationships. There's very little information about the North. They suppress the civil rights, the human rights of their own people. It's kind of a family kleptocracy. I mean, it's like this family business of the Kims. And they've been able to maintain power. Russia supported them. The Soviet Union did support them. And then later on, China becomes their main supporter after the Cold War ends. Yes. And the Allies of North Korea have found North Korea to be a very bad partner in many ways. Because they don't really pay a lot of attention to what the Soviet Union wanted, what China wants now. They're kind of a rogue state in many ways. And so that's the North Korea of today. It's been very difficult to negotiate with. They tend to not keep agreements. They tend to point fingers a lot. They do rogue things. They see themselves as rogue. I mean, I think it's got to be more than just Kim Jong-un and his family. It's got to be all the people around him. They see themselves as the rogues of the world. And so the one question I put to you here in the last of our little series on History Lens for Now is where is their perception of their image take us? What do they want to be when they grow up? How do they see the future for themselves? It's really hard to know because you don't get good information out of North Korea. What we do know is every agreement that's been signed by North Korea, they've eventually reneged on those agreements. So the current negotiations that are ongoing between the United States and North Korea are really, I don't think we can expect much of anything to come out of these negotiations because I don't think North Korea is going to negotiate in good faith. The other parties, what would be great is if at a minimum we could get a peace treaty between the North and the South. That would be marvelous because we still don't have that between the two. And the North has treated this open warfare. Occasionally they've attacked South Korea openly. And bomb facilities sunk a ship of the South Korean military, invaded the Blue House, which is kind of the South Korean version of the White House, built a tunnel underground by which they were going to do a general invasion of South Korea. So it's a fascinating but bizarre place. I visited the DMZ last year and for the second time. And you can go down the tunnel and see the tunnel. You can look over the DMZ in which you can see K-Song, which is a North Korean city. You can see all of this stuff and it's like, wow, it's really, it's the same place. It's the Korean Peninsula, but it's divided. It's incredibly divided and it's a very dangerous place. American military personnel have died in the DMZ for nothing more than cutting down a tree. So it's the Kim family and their control over that regime I think means that it will continue for at least a few more years to be a place that's a rogue regime and very unpredictable. They now are a nuclear armed regime. So of course there is a vested interest on the part of the American people and the Trump administration to actually get some concessions out of the North. But the problem is that any concessions they give I think are going to be figments. They're not going to be real concessions. But again I think what would be great is if American diplomacy could result in the North and the South establishing diplomacy, being able to sign a peace agreement, that would offer a measure of comfort to South Koreans who have lived under the threat of invasion from the North for ever since the Korean War. One thing strikes me is that a country which is at war with its neighbors now for 70 years in a state of war is not a happy place. You can't plan for the future. You can't have that independence and economic aspiration. And furthermore I think they've made themselves into a kind of sore, a canker on the Okole of Asia. And that's their identity. That's what they want to be. That's what they will continue to be. And I think looking into the future, at least from where we are today, that's the way it's going to be. It's really a sad story. Thank you, John. You bet, Jay. We'll come back. We'll do more sad stories later. No, we're going to do some happier stories. All right, happier stories next time. John, David, Andy. Come back in the fall. We'll do happier stories.