 Welcome to another episode of In the Zone. I am your host, Chris Broussard. We got another fantastic show, man. Old and Polynes 15-year NBA veteran stop by and has stories upon stories upon stories. You got to hear this interview. And then, of course, we have Jason McIntyre for Knock Down Jay. You know that's always gritty. But first, as always, we're gonna hit you with the top five post-season player-powered rankings. And at number five, James Harden. I know he's catching all sorts of flack for going ice so crazy against the Golden State Warriors in game one. But look, he produced 41 points, seven assists on 58% shooting. I mean, they didn't lose because Harden wasn't sharing the rock. They lost because the Warriors are flat out better. Period. The end. Besides that, other than Harden, the rest of the rocket shot, 40% from the floor. You can't win that way, especially with Golden State shooting 52%. Look, was Harden perfect? No, but he was good enough to be in the top five. At number four, Al Horford. Look, I'm gaining more love and respect for Big Al by the game. He is getting it done. Always been a true professional. Everyone's known that. But now he's showing that he can be a star when necessary. In game one against Cleveland, to open up the series, 20 points he puts on him. Game two, 15 points. You need me to hit the boards, coach. 10 rebounds. All while anchoring a stellar Celtics defense that's held Cleveland's great offense to just 88 points a game. At number three, LeBron James. Yes, falling down from number one in the last two weeks. I know he went ballistic on the Celtics in game two with that great 42 point triple double. But in game one, I actually had to give him an F for a grade. Only 15 points, seven turnovers. Didn't get his team out of the gate well. LeBron also hasn't exactly gotten it done on the defensive end. He's been coasting badly on that end and it's hurt the Cavs quite a bit. So I have faith in the King to get the Cavs back in this series and actually get them back to the finals. But to do that, he's gonna have to keep playing like he did in game two. At number two, Jalen Tatum. Listen closely, Jalen Tatum. That's right, in the zone is throwing you a curve ball. It's a mixture of Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. I mean, how in the world do you expect me to pick between these two guys? They are both playing phenomenal basketball. They're actually defying conventional wisdom by being the leading scores of a team in the playoffs that gets all the way to the conference finals. Tatum is averaging 18 points a game. Brown is averaging 17. Check this out. Jason Tatum is the youngest player ever. Not LeBron, not Michael, not Kareem. None of them led their teams in scoring at 20 years old in the playoffs and got to the conference finals. Tatum's the youngest to ever do it. Gotta give him props for that. And then Brown has been phenomenal of late. 23 and a half points, seven and a half rebounds a game against Cleveland in these finals. Look, Magic Johnson, you think about him as a rookie and you say, well, he did what Tatum's doing. He was great in the finals when they won it in 1980. But Magic had Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in the middle of his prime to lead that team. Jason Tatum's best teammate, Kyrie Irvin, and second best teammate, Gordon Hayward, are out. He is doing it as a full-fledged rookie who should be a sophomore in college. Jalen Tatum at number two. I don't care if you don't like it. Those two are doing damage. And at number one, Kevin Durant. I have long said that I think Durant is the Warriors' best player, but Steph Curry is their most important player. I still tend to feel that way. However, in the playoffs, Durant is showing that, hey, in the second season, I'm the leader of the Warriors. Last two seasons he's been there, Steph led them in scoring in the regular season. The two post-seasons, Durant has led them in scoring averaging 28 points last year, 28 points this year in the playoffs. And here's the thing, in the playoffs where teams can better prepare for you, they have more time to study your film, to get ready for you, to know your offense like the palm of their hand. They know where you're going. They know what you wanna do. It's easier to stop you. You need a player that, when all else fails, when they know what's coming at them, I still can just beat you one-on-one. Steph can obviously do that, no doubt about it. But KD is seven feet tall and he is killing people. You can't guard him. Can't put a small guard or forward on him. Can't put a big man on him. He is doing damage. And I like it, he's doing it old school with the mid-range jumper. In this day and age, when it's all about the tray, KD is showing you, keep working on that mid-range jumper, kids. He is destroying Houston and all the other teams with that shot. KD number one in the post-season player, power rankings. All right, we have my man, Olden Polanis. How you doing? Welcome to In the Zone. I see you all around in LA. I see you at Starbucks and Lidera Heights. At good places, at good places. I do, that's true. I see you at good places. Yesterday we had a health food store. I see you at Starbucks and Lidera Heights playing chess, which you tell me you're like the best former NBA chess player out there. Well, I don't know what everybody else is, but all the ex-NBA guys I played against, I beat up on them. So who are some of them? All of them. The guy on my list right now is Paul, Paul Pierce. Well, you want to play him, right? Yes, I want to play him. You know what you heard? He's nice. He stood there and watched me play. He didn't want to play. Was it at that Starbucks? No, it wasn't there. It was at a friend's house. So I'm like, I'm ready for you, Paul. Come on. Well, he was talking mess. Of course he was. Of course he was. Okay, okay. So we'll put that together. We'll put that together. But look, you spent 15 years in the NBA with five different teams. I had a very solid career. I want to go to something though that a lot of people don't know about you. You did not walk until you were four years old. And you didn't, your family, I guess couldn't afford a crib or something. So your dad carried you around? He carried me everywhere. So was that was in Haiti? That was in Haiti. So tell me about that. I was basically born with my feet turned inward. And first of all, people got to understand any kind of condition like that in Haiti, you're pretty much done. Yeah. And they don't have the best medical staff in the world. And so, but you know, growing up, I didn't know any of this stuff. So I just remember my dad carrying me around and my mother rubbing oil on my legs all the time. I do have those recollections. And so I had a brace on for the first two years. And then. And that was supposed to straighten them out? Straighten them out and keep them together. And then the next couple of years, just learning how to walk. So the brace did work? It did work. Okay. I always tell people, the furthest thing for my mind was being an NBA player. Gosh. I bet. You know, you just, I just want to walk. Yeah. I watched the little kids running around. You know, I watched my older brother. He's running around. I'm like, why can't I run? Why can't I walk? Wow. So it was at four that you started walking? Yeah. At four years old. And then you moved to Harlem? Yes. At eight years old? Yep. My dad came to the U.S. in 1968. My mom came in 70 and then me, my sister and my younger brother came in 72. Now, when we saw each other yesterday, we're in a health food store in Los Angeles and we bump in the Rick Ross. The real Rick Ross. The real one, yes. The real free Ray Ricky Ross, not the rapper. He actually had a shirt on and said, the real Rick Ross is not a rapper. I don't know if you read it. But, you know, we talked with him. We took pictures with him and stuff. But you, he's one of the most notorious gangsters in black American history. Another one, Nicky Barnes in Harlem, who was in the movie American Gangster, even though he wasn't a star of it. You knew Nicky Barnes from that? Yes, I did. Growing up as a kid in Harlem, we used to go to the candy store that he had. Candy store. Ha ha ha ha ha. Laundry mat, laundering money mat. Yeah, you know, he had on Frank Lucas, of course. And again, being a young kid, you know, I'm like 10 years old, 11 years old. I don't know what's going on. I'm seeing a candy store. We actually buying candy, you know? Oh, when we're playing basketball, as I got older, you know, the fact that I was getting money from him, you know, when we won a game. He would pay you. Yeah, and so it's like, but none of that stuff was illegal to us. It was like, hey, you know, we getting, giving money for, you know, doing a good job on the basketball court. So to me, yeah, you know, it was fun because like I said earlier, it's like, they were all celebrities. Cause we saw them, we saw the big Cadillacs, we saw the money flashing and everything else. So it was like, they walked out, everybody basically just like stopped and, you know, they controlled everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was, it was kind of cool in a way. Oh, I'm sure. As an adult, it's not cool. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. So you were like, man, owning a candy store pays. Ha ha ha ha ha. I'm gonna own me a candy store. So when you went, you went to Virginia as really, a lot of people thought you were gonna, you were the next Ralph Samson. You came right after him. Was there, did Nikki like want any, you know, anything back? Was there any attachments? No, that's the one thing I really appreciate by growing up in my neighborhood in Harlem. Once I started playing basketball and I started at 16, I started in high school. I had a growth spurt between my freshman and sophomore year, about eight inches. And then all of a sudden I started playing basketball. I learned how to play the game. And at the end of my junior, I wasn't already an All-American. Well, that's what, so, so when you say started playing basketball at 16, did you play on the playgrounds before that? Obviously Harlem had a lot of playgrounds, Rucker Park and stuff. I lived right across the street. So you, you didn't, got no kids around here playing. You didn't- We were out there playing baseball. We were out there kicking a soccer ball. So you had no interest in basketball? No, not at all. I had none. The first game I ever saw was in 1977. I saw the Marquette game. And then I saw Magic and Bird playing 79. Marquette, was that Duke in the national championship? I can't remember who they beat, but they won the championship that year, Al Michaels. I mean, Al McGuire. The Duke was in the 80s, I think. And so I watched a couple of games, but I think it was when I saw Bird and Magic, I was like, hey, this kind of looks kinda cool. But you gotta remember, being from Haiti, our parents were not about sports. So we barely went outside. And if we did go outside, one of our parents was always with us. They didn't allow us to go out on our own. Now, were most of your friends Haitian or you just hanging with them? No, we were like the only Haitian in our neighborhood, you know, in the polo grounds. And so all my friends were American kids, but you know what's so funny? It's like, I had an accent. And so it was like, they always made fun of my accent. And so it's like, man, I gotta fix this thing. I can't handle people making fun of me all the time. So did you purposely work on your accent? I purposely worked on my speech to not have an accent. And that's why people now, when they talk to me like, you have a New York accent, I'm like, yes, I do. I mean, I love my country. I'm definitely a Haitian citizen. I never changed over. And so, but I think it was because, you didn't wanna be bothered, you don't wanna be bullied and harassed by kids. So it's like, it put that pressure on me to just at least get that taken care of. Yeah, so you say your coach encouraged you to play once he saw how tall you were. You didn't really think about, oh, I'm tall now. Let me play basketball. It was more him. Listen, here's how it happened. He saw me in the hallway. You gotta come try out for the team. I'm like, what team? He said, the basketball team. I said, I don't know how to play basketball. He's like, you done? I said, no. I'll teach you how to play. Well, my parents aren't gonna let me play. So he's like, I'll talk to them. So he went and talked to my parents one day and his speech was, Mr. and Mrs. Ponies, if you let me teach him how to play basketball and he gets good enough, he'll get a scholarship and you won't have to play for college. The minute they heard, you don't have to pay for college. Oh yeah, you take it, take it, he play, he play. Well, that changed the trajectory of your family, your whole family. Yes, it did. That's amazing. I mean, not just my family, but my country, Haiti. And I've been able to help so many people and help my family, help friends. So it really made a big difference in my life because I don't know any other profession that I could have done within five years of learning it, earning the kind of salary I was earning, even though it's not the kind of money they're paying. But it was still pretty good money for playing basketball. What things have you been able to do in Haiti? Oh man, whew, man, what haven't I done? I've helped so many young kids live, you know, donate money. I had a foundation that we eradicating certain diseases in Haiti, bringing clean water, paid for a hospital, what else? And that's the money that wasn't stolen. Because I used to send money because I had a guy down there and he was supposed to take care of everything. And like for two years, people are like, nothing's been done. And finally I was like, you know what? I'm gonna have to go down there and do it on my own because I can't trust anybody right now. And so, you know, we've been able to help a lot of people, you know? And so I'm very proud of that. You know, we've helped kids go to college, here in the US, find families. After the earthquake, we were like, you know, one of the groups that was helping people reconnect with their families because I ended up having to do the same with my dad because he was down there doing the earthquake. And then we were reunited under Dr. Phil's show actually. Oh really? Yeah, so that was kind of cool. Wow, wow. Well, basketball, you obviously, at 16, you start playing. Your next year, you're an all-American. Yeah. So how did you pick it up so quickly? Were you naturally athletic? Open colonies, man. Come on now. Listen, I learned how to speak English in a year from watching Sesame Street and Electric Company. Did you go to school? I thought myself, no. So you sat out because you couldn't speak English? I was ESL, you know? And so I had to learn how to speak English once I learned how to speak English, even with the accent. But I was always a good student. That was the thing. I used to get money in Haiti for doing my time tables at like two and three years old. Really? Yeah. Two and three years old. So your mom taught you that early? Yeah, everybody taught me. Wow. So your parents were big on education? They were big on education. That's why I was afraid that I was never going to play basketball once Mr. Cary and my high school coach talked about it because I was like, they don't care about all that stuff. It's about education, education, education. So again, I taught myself how to speak English. And when they showed me the concepts of basketball and what I had to do, it was simple. In my mind, it was simple. You were killing guys right away. Right away. I learned how to play. I figured out I needed a go-to shot like Kareem. I didn't have a skyhook, but I had a jump hook. I had the toughness already from where I came from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this stuff was easy to me. So you played three years at Virginia. Three years at Virginia. That good success individually and as a team. I know you led them to the Final Four. That's right. As a freshman. Yeah, yeah. And at Samson, they got to the Final Four once. His junior year. Yeah, like they didn't have the team's success they expected in the tournament under him. So that was huge when you brought them to the Final Four as a freshman. I remember that. Yeah, because I was the replacement. Here I am. And they were questioning my toughness my freshman year because I got hurt like the first week of practice. We used to have to run three miles at six o'clock every morning. I'm not used to that. We don't run in New York City unless it's from a mugger. And so I'm like, hey. So casual running was not my thing. So the first day we did it, I stepped on a rock and bruised the bone in my foot. All of a sudden, the coaches are questioning my toughness. My teammates are questioning my toughness. And I was like, hold up, man. I'm really hurt. And pretty much from that moment on, I never got hurt again. Yeah, officially. Officially. And that grew. My toughness grew from that one because I didn't want people questioning my toughness. And so I played through everything. Even with my hand injury, when I first got hurt, this was my first and only injury in the NBA, significant injury. And I broke the bone in my hand on December 28th. I had the surgery on the 29th. And I was back on the court on January 20th. You're in a broken hand. Yes. Same thing Kevin Love had, that he's out for like two minutes. So you don't look at some of these injuries today and you're like, come on, man. It's funny to me. I'm like, come on, man. Just suck it up, man. You can walk around with your hand like this when you get older. Right, right. So you were drafted eighth by the Bulls. By the Bulls. In 1987, traded immediately to Seattle for Scottie Pipps. Now, I got to say this to you. I know we boys, so I can say this to you. I looked it up, Complex Magazine had that trade as the fifth worst trade NBA has been. Sports Illustrated is sixth worst. You have a different take on it. Of course I do. You think it was bad the other way. Of course it was. It was bad for the Bulls, man. They would have more championships. Really? You know, come on. I didn't get my grains. I didn't get my grains like some people. So I would have been there. I would have performed. But all jokes aside, I still do think you can't look at it that way because coming out, I was the high rated player. Yes, no question. And so through circumstance, if I ended up in Chicago, I may have turned out to be the next Scottie Pippin. What do you let me ask you? So let's say that trade's not made. You do go to Chicago and play with Michael Jordan. What do you think your career would have looked like? It would have been different. I mean, I would have been being spoken in the same terms, I believe, because I would have had a guy like that. I could have played off of Michael Jordan as great as he was. I would have been like Dennis Robbins, how he is, how he was. I would have been similar to that because I was a great offensive rebounder. So I want Michael to shoot the shots. I'll go get the rebounds. But the fact that I knew people would be concentrating on him, I can get so many rebounds, just by my position and knowing that they weren't about him and getting the easy baskets. OK, OK. So you've thought about that, I see. Of course I have. Because I don't like when people do that. So it's like the argument of who's the best. You can't do that. Bill was the best in his era. Wilt was the best in his era. Well, they were the same. They were pretty much the same man. Between the two of them, I say that Wilt was the best individually. Bill was the best winning once. No question. I think but. Because Wilt would put like 40 and 30 on him. 40 points, 30 rebounds. The best player. Even Bill would say that, you know. So I'm not going to say that Bill Russell is better talent than Wilt Chamberlain. No, but at the end of the day, if you want to talk about winning, they got to stop talking about Michael, man, and start talking about Bill Russell. So you don't like the goat conversation discussion? I don't like it because you can't compare the errors. You know, just like LeBron right now is the best in our game. I can't say, oh, he would be great or he'd be bad in another era. He's doing what he can do in his era. Let's appreciate for what it is. You know, Michael was great for his era. Kobe was great within his era. And so that's how I look at it. It's like these guys did what they had to do, bottom line. Because we can never go in a time machine and compare them, so stop doing it. So you said, you know, I was thinking about it because the goat conversation, obviously, is just ubiquitous right now. It's everywhere, Michael versus LeBron. And I think back, and I don't think that conversation was ever a big deal until recently, you know, when LeBron kind of came up and Jordan was called the goat. You know, when he retired, he was called the greatest player of all time. I think even when he retired his first time after just three championships, but then when LeBron came, it kind of became a discussion. I was thinking, as you said, if you look at Eris, it's surprising, I don't remember. Now, maybe I'm wrong. I don't remember Magic and Bird, obviously they had the rivalry, but I don't remember the huge discussion about who was better just between those two. No, because they were going back and forth winning championships. And so they were basically tied together. It's kind of like stocked in a Malone. You can't say one without the other. And Bird and Magic are the same one. You can't say Magic without Bird and vice versa. Now, you played, of course, against them. Who do you think was better? Again, individually. Now, they were in the same era. They kept out of that with the air talk. I'm going to give you Old and Polynesian's take on this. Magic, yes, the showtime and everything else. I got to give the S to Bird. I'm not going to say a name, but there's a phenomenal player today who agrees with you. I have to give the S to Bird. I mean, he can get his own shot off. He can get his teammate. Basically what Magic did, he was able to do plus be an offensive threat all the way out to the three-point line. That's an incredible asset. They were pretty much the same size. They were both slow. They were both, you know, they were not both leapers, but Bird, that outside three and they were both high IQ guys, but I got to give the S to Bird, man. In the league at that time, do you have a feel for who players felt was the better player between those two? To be honest with you, the black players gravitated to Magic and the white players gravitated to Bird, you know? And the people with sense could see the difference. You know, it wasn't about color or anything else. It was, hey, this guy, Hick and Ball. And that's why we used to always look at Bird, it's like, hmm, maybe he's not white, you know, in a little bit of a way, because he's got a lot of swag. Yeah. Before the world was really hot, Bird had swag. Oh yeah, he was the biggest, they say the greatest trash talker. He's talked more trash than anybody I've ever seen in my life, Chris. I saw it firsthand. I was under, if I can't tell this, oh my God. So we're playing in Boston. I'm on the bench at the time. We have Derek McKee, I'm with CF. We have Derek McKee, one of the top defensive guys around. K.C. is coaching us, K.C. Jones, who had coached Boston. So he looks, he catches the ball on the left side. He catches the ball and licks over at our bench and goes, I'm gonna take two dribbles right, cross over left. So we're all on the bench, like, this dude's, and Derek McKee is on it. And Derek's on it. Don't let him do that to you, D. He takes his two dribbles, cross over, pull up, jump shot. One looks over at our bench and we're all looking at each other like, is he for real? It's like, come on. Just like when we put Scott Webman on it. You know, I don't know if you heard about that. It's like, come on, that's him bad. Don't put him about me. Oh yeah, Bird said it. Yeah, don't put a white guy on it. Don't put a white guy on it. Did he say that to y'all? Man, he talked more trash than any. I don't think anybody can talk trash like him. Really? And the fact that he's able to back it up made it that much special. And that he was white probably real job. Oh, that never came in the place of fact that he could back it up. That's what we looked at. It's like, this dude here is for real. Wow. Now, who else talked, was a good trash artist. Jordan, I hear. Jordan didn't really talk, Jordan said mean stuff. You know, he said stuff that you're like, damn, man, that ain't right, dude. Come on, you know, he did stuff like that. Can you give an example? Man, he didn't do too much with us, but I know a lot of stuff he's done. I know the only thing he did to me, I started trash talking when I first played against him because I knew him in college. Yeah, yeah. And so first game, he shakes my hand. Welcome to the league kind of thing. And I go set a pick on punches being the testicles. Oh, and the testicles. And I'm like, wait a minute, I thought we were friends. You know, stuff like that. But he'll say mean stuff to you, you know. It's like, just like, you don't belong here. You know, he said stuff like that to me, but it was off the court when we're hanging out. Oh, really? He's really like that. Like, you know, ugh. Did you see it as him trying to get an edge? Because that's the legend is when he got you on the court. But when we were playing cards or whatever, he's always trying to get an advantage. I still remember, you know, his famous line to LeBratford Smith after he had that great game. You know, Michael talked about, well, should I respond to a guy wearing my shoes? Yeah. You know, so it's like, it's stuff like that. But he's a different cat. Are y'all still friends? I mean, we're cool, but you know, we've lost touch. You know, now that he's an owner, you know, he's big time and everything. But trust me, like I always tell him, I remember. So you wouldn't, so there's nobody you say is the goat? I think all these guys are great, to be honest with you. I think Shaq is great. Shaq was an incredible guy, incredible athlete. He changed the game. I believe that if he had made up his mind to just dominate, no one would ever be able to defend him. I was one of the few people that could defend him. And I used to tell him. And I told him this, dude, let me tell you something, man. If you ever decide just to dunk on me, there's nothing I can do. What'd he say? He's like, yeah, you right. But it's like, and then he comes in the game. One year, he was in Shaq, in my opinion. That was in 2000. That was his first ring. It felt like moving. Or no. Yeah, that was his first ring. It might have been his first, yeah, first ring. It felt like moving, trying to move a building. Wow. Every part of his body was like steel. That's why Man of Steel, that was it at that time, in 2000. Yeah, it's fair to say he under, so people have said that he underachieved, even though he had four rings. Yeah, but he underachieved, personally, he underachieved. Because every time you get a ring, it's a team thing. But he underachieved. You know, Kobe was great. Kobe could have done a little bit more to ingratiate himself with his teammates. But he still wanted to top guys. Because I heard stories with Kobe when he was younger. Yeah, like he was aloof with teammates and stuff like that. You're disordered by me breaking up that fight, right? No. Between him and Shaq? Do share. So he mentioned it when they did that little thing. When they sat down. Well, that was in practice? That was at a practice, but it wasn't a team practice. It was at the same, because you never played. No, we were just summertime working out. And at Southwest College, and we were running up and down, and they just joined back and forth. And no one makes anything of it, because that's what we did. We talked trash. All of a sudden, it's like, this is my team. Now, this ain't no team. This is my team. This is my team. OK, whatever. It's both of your teams. All of a sudden, whap! There's a swing. So Kobe swung and Shaq. No, Shaq swung at him. So let me get a little background. Was this while they had they already won championships together, or it was during that streak? I cannot remember the year. I don't think they had won a championship yet. OK, but they were both on the Lakers. They were both on the Lakers. Mitch Cupchak is sitting over in the corner. So it was all NBA players. All NBA guys. I'm working out with them, because I'm trying to get on the Lakers. I'm trying to get on the Lakers. So it was mostly Lakers playing. Mostly Lakers, yes. And some other guys, yes. And so I'm like, OK. And they're on opposite teams. They're on opposite teams, drawing back and forth. Next thing I know, there's a swing. So I run over, not runner. I take about a step or two, and I grab Shaq Hill. And Kobe, then, all of a sudden, he swings. And I'm like, I can't hold Shaq while he's swinging. Somebody get him, because I can't let Shaq go. Shaq ready to kill him. I let Shaq go. I don't. So Kobe missed? You were holding Shaq, and he still missed. And Kobe missed. And Shaq's trying to wrestle from me. And I'm like, OK, I got about maybe two more seconds of being able to hold this big dude. And then I think Samaki Walker came and grabbed Kobe. And Miss Cup Shaq slowly got him, came over, and said something or whatever. But it was like, if that punch landed on Kobe. Yeah, yeah. Did it come close to hitting Kobe? Really? Yeah. He would have, it might have changed his career. It was that Brad Miller punch. Yes. Yeah, I'm glad that didn't land too. Yeah, it was one of those. And I was like, he angry. You know, it's like, he angry right now. What, if you know, if you know, what was the genesis of all that? Tasasuron. That's it. That's all it was. Ego, from what I know with both of them, it was just their ego getting the best of them. Now I heard a story. I don't know if it's true. I heard that when Kobe was young, like really kind of right when he got with the Lakers, that Shaq would talk a lot of trash to him. You know, just in open runs. And you know, Kobe don't like being talked down to. Shaq thought it was more jokingly. And Kobe was taking it seriously though. But some people know how to take a joke, some don't. And I don't think Kobe ever did, especially back then. I remember other situations, you know, like guys that I know that played with them, you know, would sit around and talk. And they said the same thing. It's like he's not one to take joking, you know, well. And so I saw it firsthand with that situation. But it was like, come on guys, it doesn't really matter. You guys are on the same team. It's one common goal. You know, but that's me with common sense talking. They weren't thinking with common sense. They were thinking, you know, with their egos. Wow. Now how do you compare, I'm not asking who's greater, but just their games. Michael and Kobe, because they're very similar. They may be the two similar guys. I mean, because Kobe patterned everything after Mike. And so, but at the end of the day, you know, Mike, I think Mike has the edge because Mike changed our game. Kobe was the recipient of that. So I can't say that he was better than Mike, you know, because if it wasn't for Michael, I don't know what would have happened. But Michael was, is a one-of-a-kind talent because he came at the right time at the globalization of the NBA. Cable TV is just getting bigger. And so he was able to totally dominate. And I think that's why we say he's the greatest of all times. But again, like I said, if we're talking about greatest, then we got to start putting down, OK, A, B, C, you know, subsections of this. What makes him the greatest? Because if it's championships, then he's not the greatest. Yeah, yeah. You know, if it's points, he's not the greatest. So what makes him the greatest? Yeah, she says. Now, he's the greatest of that. We know that for certain. You played that ACC was a monster back then because Lynn Bias was another one. Obviously, he died tragically of the cocaine overdose on draft night. If I've heard people say if he had lived, we know he got drafted by the Celtics. He would have played with Bird and those guys. Jordan would not have become Jordan or at least wouldn't have been the only dominant player. He owned Mike. You really? He owned Mike in college. Now, Mike was good in college. He owned a lot of us. I remember we beat him. The first time we beat him, I blocked his shot and he fell down. And there's a great picture of me pointing at him. Yeah, I was all on top of him. And I'm like, oh, Lord, I woke up the beast. Even though we won that game, then we went down there to Maryland. Oh, my Lord, they destroyed us. He remembered that block. And he came at me the whole game. Did he say anything about it? He didn't say anything about it. He didn't have to. He just came out. He showed me in his game. I was still learning basketball, but I didn't know I shouldn't have done that. You don't wake up the beast. So those were lessons learned. But I personally believe he would have superseded Mike. We wouldn't have heard about Michael Jordan. Mike probably would have become great, but he had the edge of Mike because he was a better shooter. He was a better athlete. He was bigger and stronger. He was about 6'8". He was 6'8", like 2". He was LeBron. He was a slimmer LeBron. Same body type, a slimmer LeBron, but with a jump shot. Like already had a jump shot. He was a beast. And he went to Boston, so he probably might have won. Jordan fans out there. And again, he would have done him. That's saying a lot. He would have done him. I don't agree, but I'm going to let you speak your piece. He did him in college. All we got to do is go look at the face. Well, Mike was ACC player of the year. I don't know if Len would have been there at the time. Well, he was younger down there. Mike could have done him, but he did Mike. Just like Ron Harper. Ron Harper used to give Michael Fitz before his injury. Well, he didn't outplay Mike. He outplayed Mike. Ron gave Mike Fitz before his injury. Hold on. Did he outplay Mike? He played him tough. Ron Harper gave Michael Jordan Fitz before his knee injury. So what you saying? I'm just saying. There's certain people that gave him Fitz. Mitch Richmond gave him Fitz. That's players that went at Mike now. Well, OK, hold on. Playing him tough, giving him 23 while he gives you 33. No, I'm talking about they would give him 30, and he didn't have the same numbers. Come on now. Yes, there's people out there. And they were players that he did not want to see. What? I mean, there's a lot of guys that were afraid of Mike, but there were a few that he was afraid of too now. Who? Come on now. He did not want to see Mitch Richmond. I'm telling you that right now. Come on, man. Man, Mitch Richmond. We'd all do respect to this. That big old head, he put that on Mike, swing it around. Mike was like, nah, I don't want to mess with that. Now, Vernon Maxwell played him kind of tough, too. Vernon Maxwell played himself, because Vernon was crazy. Yeah, yeah. Mike ain't want no parts of that on any level. But how might get it done like that, then? Come on, he was great. He really was great. He had a killer instinct, and that is what separates Mike from everybody else. His killer instinct, his winning mentality. It's like he wanted to win at all costs by any means necessary. That was it. That's the difference. Do you know Ryan Harbourwell? Yes. Do you know why he was traded from Cleveland? From Cleveland, because you're up to your point. I was living in Cleveland. I think he went to the Clippers from Cleveland. I was living in Cleveland when he was traded. And that Cavs team was excellent. Mark Price, Ryan Harbour, Brad Dougherty, Larry Nass, Hot Rodwell. I thought they had the supportables. It was the person's stuff that went on. I don't know the details of that, but I do remember when he did get traded to Clippers right before I got there, and him making a comment that he's in jail. And being with the Clippers, yeah. And so it's like, when I got there, I was like, well, ooh, that's what he was talking about. It was a weird situation back then. What was it like? But is that when y'all practice at like, I can't remember. It was the high school. We found, wherever we found, listen, wherever we found is where we practice. Wherever we could find. I'm like, is this an NBA team? What were some of the places y'all practiced? Oh, man, Southwest College, Salvation Army. Salvation Army. So during the season, you had all types of different practice sites. Oh, yeah. Oh, man. It was weird. That's terrible. Yeah, Clippers, but it was fun, though. Stuff like that was fun. Playing for the Clippers was just the league, the league in general, obviously. Definitely was fun. But playing for the Clippers was fun. You know, it kept you on your toes. I bet. All the stuff I took for granted, I really ended up appreciating once I got to the Clippers in 91. It was like, oh my goodness. Us having our own practice facility in Seattle, that's kind of cool. So once you leave the Clippers, then it can be, you can appreciate it. You appreciate it even more. You had, I think, your best individual seasons with the Clippers, right? My first one, yeah. You had a good one. I've had no Sacramento over my best years, but it started with the Clippers. OK. Because I was getting consistent minutes. I became a starter for the first time because I was coming off the bench in Seattle. We had too many great players. Yeah, those were some of the best. X-Man, Dale, Alice, Tom Chambers, those guys aren't giving up their minutes. Those were some good teams. Now you played, and what I think is the greatest big man era ever. Shaq, Ewing, Elijah Wynne, David Robinson, Mutombo, Morning, Young Tim Duncan even. Young Tim Duncan. I want to ask you. Shaq Sigmug, I caught a piece of him. How good was he? Because he gets, people don't recognize how good he was. He was incredible. Up high here. You don't challenge that he shoots it. You challenge that he goes by you. It's kind of like that move, and McKels up and under, and Kareem Skyhook is definitely the greatest move of all time. I think McKels is next, and then Sigmug's. And we had the play called the Sigmug. And so it's like, you can't stop stuff like that, man. They made it their own, and there's nothing you can do about it. Who would you say who was the best big man you ever played against? Kareem. My first game was against Kareem. He was older than me. My rookie year, he was older than him, but he was still kicking butt. That Skyhook was still potent. After him, I have to say a Kimalaj one. Better than Shaq. Oh, my lord, yes. I could go on Shaq. I didn't like it. Because he didn't have the moves. No, he didn't have the moves. I could guess what Shaq wanted to do, overpower me. He wants to dunk. I used to frustrate him by just standing in front of him, letting him run me over, have Joey Crawford call the opposite foul. I used to use that against him, depending on who the referees were. You got to know stuff like that. You know what they going to call. I know what they going to call, so I use it against them. But a Kim, he had inside, outside, the foot speed. He had to shake. He had everything. A Kim by far. One of the toughest opponents I've ever faced. David Robinson was tough, too. It was hard for me to defend people that were similar to me, you know, in physical body type. Yeah, oh, lord. I had a hard time with Morning. I love. Matumba was my favorite. And we had the office of skill, right? Bernie Biggs said, if I played against Matumba, I'd be a Hall of Famer. All my career highs against Matumba. Why'd you like playing against him so much? I just knew how to play against him. I just, I could have, it was so funny. I would look at the schedule, right? No matter what was going on. I had like three bad games, four bad games. I'm looking around to see when do I play Matumba? When do I play Denver? Oh, there it is. I know I'm going to come out of my slump. When do I play Atlanta? Oh. Wow, wow. I had 25 rebounds against him in like 31, 32 minutes. My career high, you know, it's like everything I've done is usually against him. Do you feel like your NBA career could have been better or should have been better? No, only be, well, you know what? It's hard to say, it probably could have been better if I ended up on different teams, you know? You were never on great. Seattle was a good team. Seattle was a good team, but we weren't great, you know? When I left and all that, then Gary became the glove. Sean became the rain man, you know? But it's like I always caught teams on the tail. I ain't like when I got to Detroit, Isaiah was already under decline. Lambiel, Rodman was still good, but that's when he lost his mind. And so, but I look at it this way. I did the best with what I had, you know? I wasn't the most talented guy. I didn't, again, I was still learning on the fly. When did you feel like you got to a point where you were done, you know, you knew the game of basketball and you weren't kind of learning or feeling like around you to the game? When I got to Detroit, when I got traded from the Clippers to Detroit, that's when I think everything clicked for me. Not that first year, but the second year. I was number two in the league in rebond. It was the same year I broke my hand and I finished high with a team, you know, for third position. And so, well, second, whatever, you know how they do in golf, you know? Cause Dennis was one, they had a team here and then me. So, but I, you know, I did, I finished the season with a broken hand. And so to me, that's when it started because I learned from Isaiah, I learned from Dennis the year before on how to approach the game, you know, how to check my ego at the door. And so from that point on, I just played the game, you know? What was Isaiah like as a teammate in Isaiah times? Cause he was, he's reputed as a great leader. And obviously he was a leader. He's a great leader, great guy. He definitely was about team and he wanted us to be our best. You know, the only story that I remember from all my dealings with Isaiah is this one. I can, you know, I have so many, like these guys coming to my house and my mother cooking for them and him eating a piece of my mother's chicken and pulling out money. He's like, here Mrs. Potter, it's the best chicken I ever had, including my moms, you know, something like that. But I remember when I, my rookie year, I meet Isaiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, all these great players, Chuck Person, we're in Chicago. Okay. We used to have, you know, play association have like meetings. And so we went to Chicago for the meeting. I was a player rep. Back then it was, it wasn't by choice. They just make rookies, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're the player rep. But I embraced it. I was like, oh my God, that's kind of cool. So these guys are gambling, you know? And I mean, I'm not making my make what, $300,000 my rookie year. So it's like, I don't have a lot of money. So, but I want to be a part of this. So they roll in dice and everything else. And I still remember what he said to me. He says, do you want to gamble or you want to shoot dice? And I say, I want to shoot dice. Okay. And so all my money's gone. I think I lost like $700. I'm damn near in tears. I ain't got to be in Chicago two more days. I ain't got no money. He took all my money. So he pulls me over to the side. And these guys are still, and they've been big money. He pulls me over to the side. He goes, remember that question I asked you? Do you want to gamble or do you want to shoot dice? And you said you want to shoot dice. See, I don't shoot dice. I gamble. Okay. And so I'm like, there's a difference? So he begins to do what most people do when they have the upper hand. He starts taking advantage of it. He goes, he starts counting out the money, right? 100. So you work hard for this money, right? All year. So he's counting out the money he wants from you. He's counting out the money that he want from you. All right. So you work hard for this money all season, right? You know, all the pain and everything is second 100. And you just came here and gave it to me, right? I'm like, yes. So what did I do to you? I said, you took my money. I said, no, I pimped you. Now you work for me. And I'm like, are you kidding me right now? So you take my money and I'm getting this? So he finished counting out the money. He gives it back to me. And I'm like, oh, thank you. Thank you. I was like, if you ain't ready to gamble, don't get involved. And I was like, okay, lesson learned. But I was like, I don't need all this, man. If you gotta give it to me, give it to me. But you know, he taught me a valuable lesson. Sometimes you gotta know your place. You just have to know your place. Even though I wanted to be a part of that. You shouldn't have been involved. I shouldn't have been involved. And that was the lesson I learned. Is that because, one, you may not have known how to gamble as well as them, or two, you weren't making the money that they were making? Both. I didn't know anything about it. I was like, I was just excited being in the room. So I felt like I should partake, you know? And so, and that's never even been my style. I grew up in Harlem around drug dealers and everything. I've never done drugs, you know? And so I know how to say no, but it's like it looks so fun at that time. Cause I'm like, oh my God, you know, I say at times that's Magic Johnson. It's so cool. But there's a price to pay sometimes, you know? So it was a very good lesson. I heard back then, and you were, I guess the beginning of your career, you were flying commercial. Oh yes. Now I heard stories that guys would be gambling in the airport. On the plane, in the airport, sitting right there, parents and kids are running around, rolling dice. Oh yeah. That's for a big reason. I heard why one of the reasons the NBA wanted to go to Charters, cause it was like, you can't just be. They were doing it. Cause you gotta remember it's, what else are we gonna do? You know, we're gonna sit there. No, we didn't have iPhone. We didn't have any of that stuff back then. But at the same time, it's like, yeah, we probably should have known better. You know, we did a lot of that stuff in our rooms, but when we were traveling, you bored, you just want to, you know, have some fun. We pulled out the Decker cars. We stopped playing Tonk or Spades or whatever. Just having fun. What were fans like? I can't even imagine guys y'all flying commercial now. Oh my God. What were the fans like? It was absurd. But it was new to me. So I was like, okay, okay. My rookie year, you know, they gave all the rookies middle seats. That was part of the haze in your head. Oh my goodness. And there's always a little bit. You were frying coach. We were frying coach. Oh yeah. The vets get first class. Rookies get coach. Now it wasn't based on how good you were, right? It was, it was total seniority. It don't matter who you are. All of us had to do it. But they specifically made Frank Furtado, who handled all that stuff, put them in middle seats. So every time we got on the plane, it's the middle seat. So we said there, we don't know. You might switch him with me. But it seemed like every time we flew, there was somebody with a baby. Oh my goodness. And we flew, you know, like now, you know, they stay overnight, you know, all kinds of stuff. We had to catch the first flight out. So we're getting four o'clock wake up calls, you know. Morning of the games, right? Morning of the game, four o'clock wake up call. So it didn't matter if we had the game the next night or a couple of days. You cast the first flight out to be in the next city. Wow. So I remember we played in Denver and got snowed in. And we had a game against Houston, right? But the game against Houston was two days later. So we got to Denver on a Saturday. I mean, on Friday, played Saturday, thinking we're gonna wake up and go out Sunday afternoon. Oh no, they calling everybody, flights are canceled with snowed in. So we stay in Denver. Sunday, snow came down like in a movie. Monday, we're still there. Tuesday is the game. They call in the league. We don't know if we're gonna be able to get out to play the game. So finally, the snow let up. We had to fly the starters when I first, then the bench players. Really? Yes. That's how we flew out. So different flights? Yes, different flights, because we couldn't get everybody on the same flight. And so it's funny, because I still remember like when we finally made it to the arena and all that, the coaches still hadn't gotten there. So all them guys are running out, tying it tied, the game's already going on. So you started the game with no coach? The game started with no coach. You didn't even have to have to head coach? The game started. The game started. Was there any authority figure there? Who was? I think we had one, no, I'm not saying we didn't have any coaches. I think we had one. I think Bernie was there. But the head coach wasn't there. I think Bernie was there, but the assistants came in because they had some with us. And so we're all running out, players, you know, we're still like, we have dressed. We're running out there. So they started the game with just a five. And we scattering, you know, the next one come in. And all of a sudden, I've been started filling up. It was like the craziest thing, man. Wow. And because we didn't have a private plane. It's like charter. Okay, can we get on this flight? So when you got charters, it was like a whole new world. Oh my goodness. Oh, and then the gambling was right there. Before we even took off, they were already people down $5,000. It's like, wait a minute, we're not even in the air yet. Are you down five grand? What's the, I don't know if it's best, biggest, worst gambling story you ever saw. Like a guy just loses shirt. You ain't got to name names, but. Shoot, the one that we had first, I mean, I have a ton. I got to say some of this for my book, but the one that made pop the news with Dale Ellis and Xavier McDaniel, that's the biggest one. I mean, actual fight. I mean, it was crazy. And that was one of those days. You know, we were flying out. And again, before we left the ground, he's down like five, 10 grand. Which one was down? Dale. Okay. He was down about five, 10 grand that fast. So he got, you know, got some money wide to him. I think we were going to Phoenix. So got money sent to him, more gambling. So long story short, they ex like, I want my money. You know, this is days later. And we had a rule amongst our team. When we get back to our home city, you know, you have until the next day. Cause you're home now. You can go to your bank and get the money. If we're on the road, we understand. Well, a couple of days go by, there's no money. So we had a practice. X stood up. It's like, yo man, I want my money. It's like, man, you get your money when you get your money. What'd you say? Bam. He just clocked them. So now Dale was a tough dude. Dale was a tough dude when he jumped up. They start swinging. I grabbed one. I'm always in the environment breaking up fights. I grabbed one. Derek McKee and Nate McMillan grab another. Gary grabs somebody. We all like just holding on to people. And KC and everybody walks in. It's like, what's going on? Man, they talking, yelling back and forth. He's like, all right, everybody go home. Practice canceled. We were just stretching. Wow. We hadn't even started practice. Practice is canceled. Wow. So Dale runs out, grabs a two by four. He's ready to swing. So we have X in the back and everybody's standing there. We're not letting Dale get in. We're not letting him come out because he wants to come out and fight. So I'm like, oh my goodness. So finally sent him on home, right? We squash everything. So we thought. So here they come. So now Dale somehow finds out that X is gonna be at the office, at the team office because they want to meet with them. Oh, the team wants, the office wants to meet with them. So X had his baby, new born baby at the time, right? In the elevator with one of our interns or video guys. So Dale walked into the building and saw X as soon as the elevator opened. While he's on the baby. Bap! Clocked him with a. It wasn't one of these cell phones. It was the brick. Remember the brick cell phone? He clocked him in the head with the cell phone. While he's on the baby. While he's on the baby. He's like, this again, I'm telling, I'm relaying what Paul said, the video guy. So X said, hold my baby. So, cause Dale hit him and took off. Hold my baby, hold the baby. Chase him. Slaring him against every car that was there. Dale, he was slaring. Wow. Wow. Wow. They basically, after that incident, they traded everybody. All of them guys, people that went in, I'm like, I got traded. I'm not involved in this. Literally they traded, they traded Dale, they traded X, they traded Tom Chambers, they traded me, they traded Sadelle, they traded everybody. It's like, okay, we just gonna have Gary, Sean, y'all can stay the rest of the year. Wow, that's interesting, that is, well you, I mean, gosh, you said so much. Gary Payton, what was he like in his earlys? Cause we know the legend of Gary Payton, what he became and all that. What was he like as a young guy that wasn't, it took him a few years to even, you know, to play. It took him a while. He was really brash, talking out the side of his ear. And we saw that early on, and so we went at him, even as teammates, you know, we went at him. Cause we knew he had some limitations, won't being his jump shot. I don't think he would have become what he became if he didn't have the perseverance that he did. Because I still remember the playoff series against the Lakers. Magic embarrassed him. I mean, they embarrassed all of it cause they swept us, but personally, he was guarding him. Every time Gary caught the ball, he basically ran under the basket, left him by himself. Wow. And he couldn't make shots. Wow. And that summer, he just took it upon himself. I think that was the game, that was the defining moment in his career. You know, you're never gonna embarrass me like that again. Literally like he caught the ball, Magic ran back, like turned his back on him type stuff. Wow, I'm not guarding you. Wow. And he didn't have the present mind to drive. Yeah, yeah, just going to the basket. He was young. So he taught him, you know, you can't talk trash, you know, to certain people. Cause he talked, you know. Yeah, he talked, he came in talking trash, thinking that was the way he was supposed to be. I'm from Oakland, da, da, da. No, that's not gonna work right now. You gotta have a game, you know, you gotta be able to back it up with your game in the NBA. You might get away with it at Oregon State, but it wasn't happening here. Yeah. But he learned from that and he became the glove. What about Rodney? That must have been wild. My favorite teammate. Really? My favorite teammate. Why? He just, he knows how to play the game. Smart, hard worker, you know, he plays 40 minutes and then gets in the gym right after the game do another hour workout. I mean, he was incredible. I mean, borderline cycle of course, but as far as the workouts. Because I'm like, I'm too tired to be doing another hour workout. After the game. I'm talking about a full workout. After a game. Did you ever ask him why he doesn't? That was his thing. That was his thing. You know, he's like, he wanna stay in shape. And I'm like, I'm exhausted watching you work out. Wow. So, but he was really a good guy, nothing he wouldn't do for you. You know, he definitely got a bad rap, you know, with everything that was going on because he was, he's like super genius when it comes to rebounding. Oh yeah. And knowing how to play the game. He's super genius. And so, you know, I think he got caught out there like with the whole, with him and Madonna, that whole, there's no such thing as bad publicity. Mm-hmm. He got really, you know, yes, there is bad publicity. Yeah. Trust me on that. There's bad publicity. Yeah, yeah. Today, let's go to the playoffs. Because you said, I think on the herd, a week or so, a week or two ago. Couple of weeks ago. That Boston is going to win the East. Yes. Is that correct? Yes. Why do you think they're beating Cleveland? They're beating Cleveland for the simple fact that they are a much better team. You know, bottom line is Brad Stevens has empowered his guys. When Gordon Haywood went down, no one panicked. And people didn't even see that. It's like, oh my God, oh, he's down for the year. No, they rallied around. They should have won even that first game. So, but they rallied around. They ran like 16 in a row. And then Kyrie gets hurt. No one panics. Terry Rogier, you step in there. Jalen Brown, you step in there. And Brad has empowered those guys. The same shots Kyrie was getting, Terry, you get. The same shots Gordon was getting, Jalen, you get. A lot of coaches don't do that. A lot of coaches, they minimize their players. They, you know, they emasculate them. You know, instead of pushing them to greatness, they don't, you know, Brad Stevens is allowing his players to be great. He's allowing them, the young guys to make mistakes and learn from the mistakes. And I think they got a steal in Jason Tatum. Oh yeah, no question. My goodness, that's ridiculous. But they length and size and the fact that they have this toughness that the Cavaliers can't match. Okay. They got six guys they can rotate on LeBron. Yeah, so how many games is this going? I said five. I'm sticking in five. I'm sticking with it. My producer is like a huge Boston man. He is just, he's just eating this up. He's like, hey, I don't ever change my predictions or what I say, you know? And I said Boston in five, Boston in five. And I call, I told people Toronto was not going to beat. No, they didn't want to. Because they don't have the mental makeup, you know? But definitely Boston does. They are a lot tougher than Cleveland. So in the West who you got? I have the Warriors in five. Five, okay. So what about the Finals? Finals is the Warriors and I don't want to say they're going to sweep them. I think Boston gets one game. So I say Warriors in five again. Okay, okay. If- Five is a good number. In your predictions either, even if LeBron gets the Finals there, let's say he doesn't win the championship which is highly unlikely that he does. What do you think he should do this off season? I think he should stay in Cleveland finish out of his career. So don't worry about rings. Because you have rings, I think if he goes away again, it's going to tarnish his legacy. Really? Yes, because you had a point now. I understood the Miami thing because you hadn't won. I can understand one time. Then you went back to Cleveland. You didn't leave Miami and go somewhere else. You went back. You can't do that again. That's going to look really whack now if you start doing that. It'll be interesting. Stay in Cleveland. You can't come to the Lakers because you have better plays in Cleveland than you do with the Lakers. Well, if he went there with Paul George. If my aunt had testicles, she'd be my uncle. All right, well, on that note, I want to ask you, we talked about last night, you still play. You're 54 years old and you still play. No, I don't play. Well, you went out for the big three, right? Still try hard in the big three tryout because, one, I really am impressed with what they've done. And I saw it as a way to kind of like get back into the game a little bit. It didn't turn out the way I wanted, but I still wanted to see what I could do. And when I found out that I was, you know, taking part in the combines, I only had like a three week lead time to get in shape. And I hadn't played basketball in 12 years. You know, I hadn't run up and down a court in 12 years. I was 40 pounds. I still have about 40 pounds over my playing weight. So, but it was just to see if I could do it. So within two and a half weeks, I got myself in a little bit of shape, lost about 15 pounds in two weeks, got in the gym, I dunked the basketball, which I hadn't done in 12 years. Man, my body was like, what are you doing right now? And so I went out there and I did really well. You won the one-on-one, right? I won the one-on-one against all the big guys. And I'm talking about guys that are like 31, 32, that could still probably be in the league if they had some kind of mental toughness. Wow. Because that's the thing, they do have some young guys that, guys that had only a cup of coffee in the league. Yeah. But they're young. Yeah, but I'm like, dude, try, work on your game. If this is your craft, work at it. They don't do that. And that's what's so surprising to me. And when I won the one-on-one competition, I knew I was gonna win. But I was like, wait a minute, this was not as hard as I thought. Because they were going for all the pump fakes. I'm like, dude, I'm not dunking the basketball. Why are you jumping? Their IQ is kind of low. You think that's just a plague of today's generation of players? Oh yeah, definitely. You know, it's like the old saying, youth is wasted on the young. And we get to see it a lot more in sports. Because the way to get experience is to go through it, to experience it. But if you don't experience it and learn from your experiences, then you doom for failure because you're gonna keep repeating the same mistakes. And that's what I saw during the tryouts that a lot of these guys, they made so many mistakes when they were in the league, even if it was for a short amount of time. Even now, they're still doing the same mistakes. They're just not thinking. And I'm like, dude, I'm 54. There's no way I should be scoring this ugly hook shot on you. I'm not even jumping off the ground. Now, so what do you think? What's the better? There's always the discussion. What era was better? Your era where obviously we're dominant bigs or this era where they're shooting all the threes. This era's better. This is the one I like. Really? Aesthetically more pleasing. I always was WWF wrestler, man. With guys that could shoot the ball. That's all it was. It was wrestling. Vince McMahon, I think, was our commissioner. Come on now. It's ridiculous. Now, they might not be as tough as people wanna say. And I think the reason we say that is because we're so used to seeing Oakley Mason, Ewing and those guys, everybody's scrapping. We don't appreciate the beauty of what's going on right now. And that's why I love San Antonio. I love the Warriors. I love watching those threes. Because it's a thing of beauty to watch. You know, those crisp passes, jump shots. I'm wide open. Man, please. I'd rather watch this game right now as a fan. Better players now? I'm not saying that. Okay. No, I'm not saying better player. I'm just saying it's aesthetically better. Better players then. Better players then. We were more fundamentally sound. I'll give our era that. Because we had 12, I think we had 12 back then. All 12 could play. Now you have 15. You hoping to have five, six guys that could play. The rest just make up the team. And that's the sad part. And the other thing about our era, if you got hurt, you're losing your job. That's why we all played hurt. Cause I'm not taking a chance of this guy coming off the bench and me not being able to get my job back. Wow. So we played through all the injuries. I can't give up my job. Now they get hurt, come back, job's still available. Let me ask you this last question before you go. Go back to 2000. I've always wanted to ask you this. You had the incidents where you were impersonating a police officer. So they say. So tell me, clear the air, clear the air. You know what? I've paid a heavy price for that. And it's not even close to what happened. Not even close. Okay. And I thank you for bringing this up. And I didn't even know you were gonna bring it up. But in my mind I was like, please let them ask about this. Please let me ask about this. So I'm with the Utah Jazz and we just got done with practice. I have a jet black Mercedes Benz tinted windows with California license plates. That could never ever be mistaken for anything but a Mercedes Benz. I pull out of our practice facility and I'm driving. I'm going to see a young lady. Maybe that was the reason. I don't know. You know, maybe that was punishment. But so I'm on the phone with her. I had two cell phones. I had a black cell phone and I had that new next tell that flipped up like the matrix phone. Okay, okay. So I'm on the phone. I'm on the black cell phone with her and the other one sitting in the chair. And so I'm driving this car. The lane started to become one because there were cones. So the car swipes me like this, clips my car, I felt them hit me and kept going and made the right turn. So I'm like, oh snap. So I made the right turn. I'm thinking he's going to stop so we could exchange numbers normally. He keeps going. So I keep going. I pick up the black phone and say, hey, let me call you back. You know? And so I'm like, oh, you know what? No, no, no. I want you to stay on the phone. She's like, what happened? I said, I just got hit, you know? All right, hold on. So I grabbed the other phone and I called 911. I called the police, they put me on hold. So I'm like, okay, I'm calling the police right now. They got me on hold. Okay, fine. So while all this is going on, he makes a U turn and parks in the house. It's his house. So you followed. I followed all the way. So I make a U turn and now my driver's side is facing him. Okay. He comes out. Tell him he's a gangbanger from California. Wow. Apparently they had called the police too. So I'm like, I'm a gangbanger. So he don't know you from anybody. He doesn't know me from anybody. So the lady who he was with comes out. We're calling the police right now, get out of here. So I'm like, I got the police on the phone now. You know? He's like, yeah, he's a gangbanger from California. I like, dude, if I was a gangbanger, you'd be dead right now. Right? So I yell out, I'm old and Polynesian of the Utah Jazz. So now he realizes I'm not a gangbanger and all that stuff. He walks up to my car. It's like, dude, what's going on? It's like, yo, you hit my car. It's like, no, I didn't. I said, my man, you hit my car. When you made that right turn, you clip my car. So I'm like, oh man, I didn't even realize it, man. I'm sorry. Like, yeah. So my wallet is sitting in my driver's seat in my passenger seat and it's open. I had a little pen, right? That was given to me by my agent, you know? And he gave me one. He gave Carmelone one. He gave Daniel Marshall one. And he gave Brian Russell one because he represented all of us. And it was from Chev LeBaca. It's just like a little commemorative pen, like the size of a nickel. It's in my, you know, like, if you ever get pulled over, you know, you open up, they see it and they let, you know, whatever they give you a curve to see it. He sees that. It's like, why do you have that? I said, none of your effing business, right? Yeah. That was it. So I'm still waiting on the police to come back. You know, that's all I said to him. I said, yo, dude, you know, do you want to exchange information? What do you want to do? It's like, man, I don't think I hit your car, but you know, if you want to exchange, like, yo, let's exchange information. So we exchange information. That was it. I left. Police never came back on the phone. I go home. I never even bothered to go see who I was going to see. I just ended up going home because I'm like, this is crazy. A week later, they telling me I'm being charged with impersonating a police officer. Wow. And so I'm like, huh, what the hell's going on? Now there's never, there's no police, there's nothing. So I talked to the team, I talked to Jerry Sloan and Kevin O'Connor, who was a GM at the time. The assistant DA came in and we had a meeting and I explained, just like I said to you, I explained what happened and I showed it to him. You know, he's like, is that what we're talking about? I said, this is exactly what happened. He's like, don't even worry about it. I'll take care of it. Next thing I know, they filed charges. The person they hit? Yes, they filed charges. The district attorney filed charges. I'm like, wait a minute, how is that taking care of it? You're filing charges now. Oh, the DA filed charges? The DA, yes. At first it was just a report. Yeah, yeah. Then they filed charges. So the team had another meeting with me. It was like, hey, maybe you should just take a deal. You know, I don't think you want to go through this during the season, look out for the team. And me being the dummy that I was, looking out for the team, I copped a plea deal, which I shouldn't have done. I should have just went to trial and dealt with it then. Wow. Wow. And so that's it. So that's bothered you for all this? It's bothered me since 2000. Because I get people laughing at me, oh, police officer, I'm like, are you for real? Wow, wow. And that's it in a nutshell. That's exactly what happened. Because he saw that little thing in my wallet, he asked me what it was, and then he relayed that to them. He said, well, I saw he had a badge in his wallet. But when I showed it to the DA, it's the size of a nickel. Now, I know what you're talking about. Yeah, it's like. If cops give you something and say you're a nickel. Yeah, but I never said anything about police. I never did anything. All I said was none of your business. Wow. So I... Well, I'm glad you got to clear that up here on In the Zone. And we glad we could provide you the platform, but great, great interview, great stories. I knew you'd be good, because I love hearing you interview, because you got great stuff. So there it is in the Zone, Old and Polynes, 15-year NBA veteran. Don't believe everything you hear. Yeah. All right, here we go for another segment of one of my favorite parts of the podcast. I welcome in. You're letting me back in this week. After last week. Yeah, I thought about it. I felt bad beating you down. I'll let you back. So another segment of Knock Down, Jamie, what you got for me? Listen, you're feeling good, because your Celtics playing well. I'll give you props on that. And the Rockets, I think you said they have a 40, 45% chance last week. No, no, I said 25%. 25, okay. Zero percent chance. But let's start with your Cavs, your guy LeBron. There is a somber mood out there right now. Like, are they dead? Is the series over? And Chris, I gotta say, they've lost two games by double digits. They can't make three pointers to save their life. Defensively, they're getting shredded, nothing from the back court. I know there's a few days off and they're going home. Brad Stevens has coached circles around Tyloo. I don't see an argument for the Cavs in this series, other than while they have LeBron. I think the series is over, do you? No, no, no, it's two. Look, Boston looks great. All props to them, all props to Brad Stevens and the players. They need to start getting some respect too. But look, Boston has been bad on the road in the playoffs. This is true. 9-0 at home, 1-4 on the road. And the one game they did win against Philadelphia, come on, the Sixers kind of threw that away. Get that away, that's true. Okay, so you're going to Cleveland, you got the best player in the world and the role players for both teams play better at home. If you look at Terry Rogier, who was great again in game two, in the playoffs, he's averaged 20 points at home, 13 on the road. He shot 45% from three at home, 24% on the road. You look at Al Horford, 20 points at home during the playoffs, 12 on the road, 30% shooting from three on the road. Jalen Brown even goes from 18 points down to 16. So the players in Boston, the role players and even the young leaders and stars aren't going to be as good on the road as they have been at home. Let me jump in, can I jump in with a pushback? I think Cleveland can come back. Okay, I would, no dispute of anything you said. However, this is a Cavs team that got blown out at home against Indiana in game one. They're five and one at home. And they needed a buzzer beater against a bad Toronto team. Bad? They won 59 games. I mean the Cavs led that game by double digits most of the way and let Toronto creep back in. I believe that was a game without DeRosan, member of the fourth quarter, they kind of subbed him out. DeRosan was there? He was, yeah, he's played. He's got a bench, because he wasn't playing with. Okay, he got a bench. So Toronto got back in that game LeBron won at the buzzer. So it's not like Cleveland is unbeatable at home. No, I mean, they're not a terrific team, but they're five and one at home. They played much better. They were three and two. Now they're three and four on the road in the playoffs. So they're going to play much better. Boston's not going to play as well. Again, you got the best player. Look, last night you could argue game two was more of a must win for Boston than for Cleveland. Because considering that the Celtics play so poorly on the road, if they lose last night, then they probably go back to Boston for game five down three one and now you're facing elimination. So look, all LeBron has to do is win one game in Boston. It could be game five, it could be game seven. It doesn't matter, but he just has to win one game. But when you say that, you make it sound like these next two are going to the Cavs. No, I mean, it's not automatic. Look, Boston's playing great. I mean, there's no doubt about it, but I'm just saying it's not over. Like for us to be acting like, oh, there's no chance Cleveland can win. That's ridiculous. Because again, best player, you got home court. And look, LeBron James, when he says I'm not concerned, he's not just blowing smoke. This is a guy that was down three one to the best regular season team in history. They had Kyrie Irving, Draymond got suspended. But you're still down three one. And they still, I give you that, that Draymond suspension completely changed the momentum. And they had Kyrie Irving, let's do it. No question, he was great. However, you still had to win two games with Draymond on the floor in Golden State. At the same time, LeBron looks around this roster, okay? Jordan Clarkson did not play, he's not getting the help. I mean, he's done, livelihood can't play, okay? George Hill is an embarrassment to watch play, okay? Kyle Korver cannot defend Jalen Brown. They just went right at Kyle Korver had to play him off the court, okay? So I don't see the supporting cast. This is two losses on the road by double digits. Well, look, it's not a- Neither game was close. It's not a great, hold on, game two was close. Oh my gosh, the cast didn't get- I mean, you can't, look, it's like saying that Houston Golden State game wasn't close because it was double, it was close. It was a competitive game. In the three point era, toward the end of the game, you can go ahead and end up with it by double digits. If you don't lead in the fourth or you're not in one, within one possession, I don't consider that close. I do. I mean, they were within five points. Did you, at any point- How they were within five points with what, six minutes left or something like that? But at any point, did you say, all right, that's two possessions. Caps look good, they're running good offense. I think they got this. At any point, did you think the Caps were gonna win that game last night, in the fourth quarter? Well, I mean, they're down, it was a close game within reach, is my point. It wasn't a one possession game, but it was within reach. And again, LeBron's been down numerous times, not just the Warriors down three, two, in the finals against San Antonio, remember, 2013, down three, two, going to Boston in the Eastern Conference finals against the big three Celtics. And he plays great and they win the series. So, I'm just saying- Let me hear your new pick for the series. I'm sticking with Celtics. I'm sticking with my pick. Cavs in. I said six, I'll stick with it. Wow, all right, let's move on. There's no need to go well. To the Celtics. Listen, you've been pushing this angle, Chris. I gotta say I've sent you a couple upset text messages about it. Chris, come on. The Boston Celtics won 55 games with Gordon Hayward not playing and he's a top 20 player in the NBA. I don't think we'd argue that. We would argue that. Top 20? We won't argue that. He's a one-time all-star. Oh my goodness. I mean, there's a reason they paid him $130 million. They paid Al Horford that too. Everybody won. Was he top 20 when they did that? Well, Al Horford's older. I mean, Gordon Hayward's in his prime. Was he top 20 when they gave him that money? No. Okay. Gordon Hayward was a 26-year-old guy on the rise. Don't come to me with contracts off you. 55 wins, no Gordon Hayward. Kyrie misses the end of the season. Next year, this is a team that's gonna dominate the East. I know your Sixers are gonna be there assuming LeBron leads. This is a 60-65 win team next year when you add in Kyrie and Hayward. I think under no circumstances should they tinker and go after Kawhi or trade Kyrie, your bench, your three guys off the bench next year are looking at Rozier, probably Marcus Smart, and Marcus Morris. I mean, those are huge contributors now. They're gonna have maybe after the Warriors the best starting lineup in the NBA next year. Why on earth would you trade anybody from this team? And let's please stop with the Gordon Hayward trade ideas. Nobody's trading for a guy coming off that injury. That is just not happening. You'll go ahead. We're not gonna stop with the Gordon Hayward trade ideas. Look, boss is gonna be great. If they don't touch a thing, they will be a very good team, but you cannot rest on your laurels in this NBA. There have been a lot of very good teams. The Phoenix Suns with Steve Nash never won it. Sacramento with Chris Weber and Pages Royakovich and all those guys never won it. Like just because you get close, you don't say, okay, if they get beat, if they get to the finals and get beat four games, five games, whatever, then you can't sit there and say, we're close to Gordon Hayward. Or you can, because you haven't seen it with Kyrie and Hayward. You have it. So that doesn't mean everything might not fit. Roars are gonna be different now. When Kyrie comes back, Jason Tatum is now of a different stature. Jalen Brown is now of a different stature. I think both of them are better than Gordon Hayward. They're better defenders. Their potential is way better. Potential, yes. But you tell me right now. Jason Tatum is a 43% three point shooter. Gordon Hayward is a 36% career three point shooter. Gordon Hayward gets you four rebounds a game as a six. I need a time out. No, no, no. I listen to you. As a six eight player, Gordon Hayward gets you four rebounds a game for his career. Jason Tatum got me five this year as a rookie. Let's not go career numbers on Hayward because there's a rookie barely played. Well, that said something too. 21 five. Let me finish. Talent. Jason Tatum is a better talent than Gordon Hayward. And it's shown by the fact that he's contributed right away. Do you know who the youngest player ever, ever? That includes Michael Jordan, LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal, the youngest player ever to lead his team in scoring in the playoffs and get them to the conference finals is who? I'm gonna guess it's Jason Tatum. Jason Tatum. So this guy, you're putting it, he's doing. So I think this is what I do. Again, I like them if they come back just as they are. But LeBron James might go to Philadelphia. Now of a sudden you gotta deal with them. And I don't think you can say definitively that that's a really good team, but are you definitively better than them? I don't think you can say that. So here's what I would do. I told you, I would call the spurs. My first offer, Terry Rogier, Gordon Hayward, next year's Kings pick. Hold on, hold on. That's a lot for Kawhi Leonard. Oh man. Is that not a lot? I would not, I would not even, I would, there's no way Danny Angel would do that. No way. He, this is a guy who didn't want Jimmy Butler. He passed on Paul George. He's gonna want Kawhi Leonard. Coming off that injury. When you got all this awesome talent. You're giving up a guy coming off an injury. So it's kind of a, even switch. There's a reason Danny Age went full board to get Hayward. Now here's why. Wait, you don't think he'd want Kawhi Leonard over Gordon Hayward? Well, Gordon Hayward, Terry Rogier, and the Kings number one pick, which could be a top five pick. Kawhi Leonard is light years ahead of Gordon Hayward. That's true. Okay, let me now. So you gotta throw in some stuff to make it work. I would never do that. Okay, so. And then let me, No, go ahead, what else? All right. Cause I'm gonna sound off here. Here's the other thing. And I would not, I would not want to trade Kawhi. However, Kawhi Irving has a player option after next year. So he could be a free agent. Guess what team was not on his list? Boston, yeah. Okay, Miami, San Antonio, New York, and Minnesota were the teams on his list. So what if I don't trade Kawhi Irving? And he decides to walk. And I get nothing for him. I'm just saying you might have to explore it because of the fact that he could walk away for nothing a year from now. There's already, you know, people wonder, I've wondered how does Kawhi feel watching this team go this far without him? And I'm not saying he's selfish. He's not selfish, but he's human. And you, if you're a superstar, you want to be a big part of the team and you want to feel needed. So my point is rather than risk losing Kawhi for nothing, do I look at, you know what? If I can get Kawhi Leonard in, and obviously get a promise from him that he'll stay, I'd hate to see Kawhi go, but I think that's something you have to explore just because of the circumstances. I think that Kawhi's stuff has more merit than your Hayward stuff. That totally spooked you. You're like, stop. No, I did not. No, I think it's a- No, whoa, time out, hold up. I gotta respond to this Gordon Hayward stuff, okay. We saw last year what Brad Stevens can do to anybody on the roster. Avery Bradley was a star in Boston. Isaiah Thomas, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. You had your piece. Don't overstate. Jake Crowder, all these guys- Don't overstate. Look to awesome with- Jake Crowder. Awesome. Hold on. Jake Crowder overstate last year. Hold on, Avery Bradley was a star. And Jake Crowder was awesome. Avery Bradley. Tone it down. Avery Bradley was one of the best two-way guards in the NBA last year. Was a great defender. Was a two-way pretty well. He played way average 18 points again. He was one of the best two-way guards in the league. That qualifies as a star. I would go there. He was. Everybody's an all-star team. I didn't say all-star. I said star. Hold up. The all-star team is for all the stars. Come on. Has he ever been in it? I have no idea. Has he? No. Okay, fine. Not close. Jake Crowder, awesome. Just bring it down to good. Jake Crowder was awesome in Boston. Chris, he was perfect. They loved him. They got to the conference finals. Cut. No, no, no, no. I'm close to kicking you off again. Again? You didn't even make- Jake Crowder was awesome? For Boston last year. He was a very good role player. Awesome. Let me finish my point. LeBron is awesome. Brad's- Kevin Durant is awesome. Okay, let me move on. What Brad Stevens is able to do to marginal players, Jake Crowder, Isaiah Thomas, Avery Bradley, elevate their play. What he's done this year for Tatum and Brown has been incredible. They're not marginal players. No, they're very good. They're top three picks. He's already made them excellent. What do you think he's gonna do for Gordon Hayward? I know. An awesome player in Utah, where he averaged 21 and five, where his point guard was, who, George Hill? Last year? Now he's gonna be playing with Kyrie Irving. Well, he earned the ball a lot himself. Yeah, he did. He's gonna be playing in the Brad Stevens system with Kyrie Irving and two young studs, and Al Horford. Gordon Hayward's gonna be amazing next year. This team- I don't even know what his role is. If you- But he's not a ball hog who needs 25 shots a game. If you start- If you start Kyrie, Jaylen Brown, Jason Tatum, Al Horford, and Gordon Hayward. If you're poison. You need some role player. Who's the worst of those? At least three of them are better than Hayward. I hope you don't freak out. And I would argue Horford's better than Hayward, too, because at least he's a great defender. How is this not a Warriors' light situation? Warriors have Kevin Durant, Clay Thompson, Steph Curry. They're all gonna kill you. The Warriors always have- Why can't you have Gordon Hayward, Jason Tatum, and Jaylen Brown in that role with Kyrie, and then Al Horford? No, I'm not saying you can't. It's a good- Don't get me wrong. It's a very good starting lineup. I just think it could be even better if you get Kawhi Leonard. Here's the thing. Of those five guys, like you mentioned the deaf lineup in Golden State, you got Andre Guadala, who plays a role. He knows he's not a star in that lineup. You got Draymond Green, who is a star, but he's a role-playing star. Like he does all the dirty work. You need that. Even when they go big and they start either Pachulia or Kevin Looney or Javel McGee, you need a role-player in your life. You got Al Horford. Marcus Marr, Al Horford. I'm talking about in your starting lineup. No, that's a starting lineup. It's just like eight minutes and then you work guys in and you get the rotation going. I'm just saying, don't think Hayward's gonna come in there and be the leading scorer next year. And one reminder. Jason Tatum on his rookie deal. Kawhi Leonard, you get him. You're gonna need to pay him massive money. Jason Tatum is cheap for the next five years. Yeah, but I'd be getting rid of Hayward's contract. Look, it's a good team without a move. All right, moving on. But I would try to make a move. Don't do anything, Danny Ainge. Text me before you make any moves. All right, let's wrap up. Now, this one, this is a topic near and dear to your heart. You know, Maverick Carter, I hope you're not upset here. But this is a question about LeBron that's gonna be asked, especially if they lose this series. If he can't get out of the Eastern Conference Finals against the Boston Celtics who are heavy underdogs in this series. Well, technically, they aren't a favorite. Well, now they're the favorites. Coming into the series, they were underdogs. But they're also the second seed. Okay. Against the fourth seed. How much is LeBron's legacy damaged if he loses this series? And I have a theory, but I'll let you go first, your podcast, how much, or maybe you don't think his legacy is damaged at all. I don't think his legacy is damaged. The only place his legacy is damaged if they lose this series is in the Goat Conversation. It's not, Well, that's legacy. But if he's considered the second best player of all time, I mean, that's really good. And I think that's what he is. I mean, all the other play, when you say damage is legacy, I think it means it has to pull him down. Okay. But it won't pull him down. Magic Johnson, in his second year, they lost in the first round of the playoffs and he had Karim Abdul-Jabbar. You know, Karim Abdul-Jabbar, right smack dab in the middle of his prime missed the playoffs two straight years. My point is that all of the legends have had their bad moments. And this wouldn't even be a horrible moment. I mean, he doesn't have a lot of help, LeBron. He's in his 15th year if he loses in the conference finals. It's not like the worst thing in the world. Does he not have help because, and again, I don't want to put words in his mouth. Did he drive Kyrie Irving off? Did he drive him away from his team by saying, Hey man, this is my team falling in line. You're my guy, the kid, all that stuff. And I'm not going to blame him. The Kyrie Irving made a decision he wanted to make. I'm not going to blame LeBron James for that. You don't blame him at all for not going to Kyrie and saying, Hey, I am in. I'm sorry we got off on the wrong foot. He went to Cleveland and said, don't trade him. He tried to reach out to Kyrie. Kyrie didn't want to talk to him. Well, but why didn't Kyrie want to talk to him? Because something must have happened, right? But look, you got the second best player on the team all the time. Second best player on the team. I mean, Shaq and Kobe left each other. Well, I blame Kobe for that play. It happens, you know, but my point is the only place it will hurt LeBron's legacy is in the goat conversation. Because when once Michael, and Jordan has not had, once he started winning, he did not have moments like this or like Dallas or like tragic John's 84. He's not going to include you in a Let No Magic series lost when he came back from baseball. I mean, he played baseball for a year and a half, hadn't been playing basketball, comes back, plays 17 regular season games, averaged like 26 points, by the way. I'm not going to blame him for being rusty in the freaking playoffs. Against a young, young team, not a young bus. Shaquille O'Neal and Penny Hardaway, too all-time great. Especially at that time, Penny was fantastic. So I'm not gonna, I don't hold that against Jordan. And so once he started winning, he kept everybody else from winning. That's the thing you can't say about LeBron. Kevin Durant has won, Steph Curry has won, Dirk Gavitski has won, and Old Tim Duncan have won. All during LeBron's prime, even when he had a stack team in Miami. That's a big argument for Jordan. And then you go here, and you say Jaylen Brown and Jason Tatum, two young bucks, beat LeBron. So again, does it hurt him with all the other legends, but I think it just hurts him. He's got 42 points. He's four for 14 on shooting against Marcus Morris. That's 14 possessions. He had 42 points in a triple double. Marcus Morris is locking him up. He had 42 points. I'm aware of that. Why didn't Bryce even just put Marcus Morris on him the whole game? You see how he can lock him up? I'm just saying, since he can lock LeBron. Since he can lock him up, why ain't he guarding for 40 minutes? I'm not a skit-failess LeBron here, just see that. All I'm saying is this is it. This sums up what I'm saying. This will not hurt LeBron's legacy. It will only hurt in the goat conversation with Jordan. That's all I'm saying. I would counter that no matter what LeBron does, he cannot win. He's not gonna win with the fans. He's not gonna win with the media. He's not gonna win with his teammates. He's not gonna win with his peers. Because this is a guy who's doing everything. As you said, triple double. He's amazing. Well, you know what? At the end of the season, he's gonna look at this roster and say, man, these scrubs, I can't play with these guys. I'm out of here. He goes to Houston. Oh, well, he's had to join his 65-win team. He's a ring chaser. He goes to the Lakers. You think, oh, he's not gonna win. He goes to the Sixers. Well, no, Joe LMB, Ben Simmons, best young guys. LeBron needs that help. LeBron can't do anything to help his legacy at all. And I don't think it's fair to say. Really? How could he help his legacy, Chris? By winning more championships. Oh, then it's not happening? If he goes to Philadelphia. If he goes to Houston. I don't think they're getting out of the East. I mean, that's another discussion. Well, that's your opinion. I mean, you'd have to look at that team and say they got a great young point guard, a great center, and the best player in the world. And then some shooters with Saarich and a couple other guys they had. Like, why couldn't they win? Celtics still have the best coach by a mile and they're adding Gordon Hayward and Kyrie Irving. I'll take the Celtics over that LeBron team. Who would be, if you put those two teams together, who would LeBron and Philly, who's the best player? LeBron. Okay, who's second best? Well, you, I mean, you, you're... Joel and B? Joel and B, really? I mean, he got outplayed by Al Horford straight up in the series. I'd say Joel and B. It was his first season playing the series. I mean, you love Jason Tatum, I'm surprised you're not going there. I will say Kyrie Irving's the second best player in that series. Kyrie's very good, I'd say MB. Okay. We saw Jason Tatum outplay Ben Simmons head to head. Is he better than Ben Simmons? I mean, I think you're sleeping on this cab on this Celtics team, man. No, I'm saying the Celtics seem to be good. Gordon Hayward, who is ridiculously talented. I know you don't like Hayward. He's a one freaking time All-Star, my goodness. I don't care what happened. What three years ago were you tall with that small- Gordon Hayward is, what, tremendously talented. Jay Crowder is awesome. Gordon Hayward beat Chris Paul on the playoffs last year. Who's other one you mentioned? Avery Bradley's an All-Star. Like, why do you live in that? So Gordon Hayward's not good. What are you? You got something you've been smoking? I'm just faking it. I mean, my goodness. Listen, Chris. Avery Bradley's an All-Star. Gordon Hayward's an All-Time great, and Jay Crowder's awesome. Can we tear up your top five and go 25 best players in the league? So I can prove to you, Gordon Hayward is in the top 25. First he was 20. Now you're already backing up. I'm a 20, a top 20 player in the league. No doubt about it. In two minutes it'll be top 35 players in the league. George Hill to Kyrie Irving. Man, I can't believe there's Gordon Hayward. The guys have played so much. How much did he hurt Utah when he left? Well, Utah changed significantly. They got Donovan Mitchell, a high impact guy. Rudy Gobert, they have one of the better coaches in the league. Well, Gobert was there last year. Yeah, he was. Your coach in the year. And listen, they had a good season. Ricky Rubio was better without Hayward, just like you live. Well, Ricky Rubio wasn't there with Hayward. Ricky Rubio was in Minnesota. But he had his best year. He did, yeah. Listen, Clinton Steiner's a very good coach. We're forgetting, Gordon Hayward beat Chris Paul in the playoffs last year. Did he not? In the first round, game seven. They went into LA and won, but we're getting off the, I don't know how we had. I saw Joe Johnson doing that. Oh yeah, that's why they beat the Clippers. Joe Johnson. Thank you for turning into another episode of Knock Down Jay, where I knocked him down big time. Nobody has more fun than I. Go to iTunes, go to Apple Podcasts, go to SoundCloud, give us five stars, leave us comments and download, of course. See you next week. Peace.