 the meeting. Right now give me one moment and I'll share my screen and we'll get started. Welcome everyone and thank you for coming. Can everyone see my screen? Yep. Awesome, thank you. Thank you. Thank you all for joining for a general meeting here for Hyperledger Healthcare SIG. My name is Michael Coy and I'm the Chair of the Special Interest Group. Today before we get started we want to start every meeting with the Antitrust Policy Billing Foundation gives out. Pretty much discloses that if you have any compromising information within your company, projects, or teams, please don't disclose it out here. This is an open forum and you wouldn't want to have any your detailed business relations or projects be released out. So thank you very much and we will get started. So we'll do some introductions for those that are new into the group. I'm aware of Leah, John, Jonathan, and Daniel who are prior participants in the group. But Alberto, I don't know if we've heard from you yet. So please give an introduction for the group and who you are, where you're based, what brings you to the Special Interest Group and what you're most interested in learning. Alberto, you are muted, I believe. But the floor is yours. Alberto, can you hear us? I guess he's with us in spirit in some way. So and Dan, where are you based these days, actually? I'm in Chicago. Chicago? Awesome. If you want to get a quick introduction for those it may not be aware of you as well. Okay. Yeah, my name's Dan Watkins. I've been in software development for a little over 30 years, actually. I had an internet startup in 1995 that was focused on e-commerce. After 2010, I pivoted to health tech and doing some consulting there. I'm currently, my day job is currently at a company called Napao in Chicago, and we do blockchain and machine learning for health tech, and we're focused on social determinants of health. I'm currently working with Leah on her startup, CoaFacta, and we're doing we're doing a lot of blockchain stuff with mobile and machine learning as well. It's awesome. Thank you for sharing that. All right, so we'll go into community announcements. Are there any announcements that anyone in the group would like to discuss with the group from things that are either within the hyperledger community or outside of it? Good morning. This is Enduro. Enduro, welcome to the conversation. We're just getting underway. So far in our agenda, we're going over community announcements for either events happening, things have happened in the healthcare blockchain space within the last two weeks or so. So if you have any news or events that really piqued your interest, please release them and share them here. Yes, I think last week there was, as part of the United Nations General Assembly, 75th General Assembly, there were a lot of satellite events and one of them was focused on science, digest and global health. There was a lot of a good representation. There were a couple of noteworthy events also organized by Consensus Health from the Health Utility Grid as well as there were a lot of panel discussion around that and there was a panel discussion also on global health and technology that I was a part of along with the former CIO of Human and Health Services and that was a good event last week. I think there's also an upcoming event, a conference this week on IEEE blockchain for healthcare focus. For sure, yeah. The United Nations General Assembly was a big event that, you know, brought together a lot of people in the industry and there was a huge focus, sorry my dog is a chew toy and it's making the background noise, very interesting. But what I also thought was interesting last week was, was Metaledger's integration into the HIVCC announcement within the, I think it's health industry number system data. Was anyone aware of that or also saw that news too? Yeah, I read the headlines, didn't dive into it, it's still in the inbox. Yeah, so it's really interesting. So the, I think the HIVCC stands for, give me one second. Health Industry Business Communications Council and they integrated this health industry number system within the Metaledger project. Metaledger in general is, they create a kind of like a federated model for chargebacks and contracts so that you could be able to help with payment and claims adjudication within a network and what they've been able to do is be able to create a platform for many different solutions and be able to have a number system and standards body to be able to help with that I think is, is kind of a game changer in, in as far as standards and regulations concerned with the platform. It's going to be interesting to see how Chronicle will, will help build that within that network. It's, it's to me like Chronicle has a task of getting a lot of adoption into the network and the governance and the frameworks within the, within building up that network are going to be so globally submit and have a lot of semantics that are attributed to that that we need to connect into each other. It'll be very interesting to see how they can all interoperate and work together for sure. Any other thoughts with them that I'll send the link to that. I'll send the link to that occurrence in the chat for anyone to take a look at. Cool. Um, that was just something I thought that that came. Oh, my dog is barking. Sorry. So, um, we don't have any of the subgroup lead members here today within Denise or Ravish or Stephen, but, uh, they unfortunately had zoom issues as well, trying to get into their meetings and groups. So I apologize for anyone that wanted to join into that. Uh, Stevens is going to happen not this Monday, but the following Monday. And I think later today is the payer subgroup meeting, which is in three hours from now, uh, that Ravish is going to be leading as well. So if you want to get a more detailed update, you can meet with those subgroups earlier today or later today. We also have, um, there's a different, there's a Wiki redesign team and, uh, another team that's actually, uh, helping to improve the zoom efforts and the site efforts. And if anyone wants to learn more about how you can help out the hyperledger, um, community teams and, and, and helping with these templates, please reach out to me and let me know. Um, we also want to go over the use case development team. Erica is not with us today. She unfortunately has a work meeting at this moment, but she wanted to know if anyone else is looking to take lead or take more ownership within the use case development team, uh, to reach out to her or me separately as you have my email and her email list in the group, uh, to be able to, to get that ball rolling. Is there any interest actually from this group right here wanting to help with the healthcare use case development team? Can you just tell us a bit more about it, Mike, because I might be interested. Yeah. So I think actually you'd be perfect for it. So what they're trying to do is, uh, create frameworks and templates for, uh, startups, enterprises, federal entities that want to use blockchain and healthcare or life science, uh, and they'll kind of create, uh, framework and decision trees and, uh, business plan outlines of how you could be successful in these type of projects. And then, uh, I guess later down the road and they refer you into particular platforms, their transaction speeds, their storage bandwidth, uh, their different features that are of, of relevance for each implementation and per use case. Uh, so those are more the gist of it. It's more, I would think of it as, uh, analysis, business analysis, technical analysis, as well as a strategy analysis too. And it could be useful for those that are trying to work and ideate more on how they're going to build solutions as well as, uh, to, to drive in potential, um, more customers or, or community members is what you're doing. Okay. Um, I'll have us think about it because of time, um, the tie, the big T factor, um, just in terms of how many hours you think, um, need to be contributed to that as well. So, yeah, but I can maybe have an offline discussion with you or the team about that. Absolutely. Yeah. Just send me, um, send me a reminder email so I can just ping Erica on that and then, uh, no problem. Like I, I may have some interest in being involved. So I'll email you after the, uh, the meeting as well. Please do. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that, that group will be very, um, it'll be a great way to guide in those who believe this type of technology can be of relevance and value later on the road for sure. All right. Uh, we've had these links for COVID-19 virus pandemic support. Uh, there's great opportunities that are, are still being had, though I believe NIH funding opportunity, uh, has closed, um, within the U S, um, these are still additional COVID-19 funding opportunities that you can be able to take advantage of. They're on the general meeting page for you to look at. Now I wanted to make this, um, open this, uh, meeting, uh, open, but I do want to make an announcement that from the feedback we got from the survey we sent out, I sent out about three, four weeks ago, instead of having this meeting, uh, occurring on Fridays at 10 a.m. Eastern time, there was more of a want and a need to have these meetings during the week because people are on vacation holiday to take off on Fridays. Uh, so Wednesday at 10 a.m. Eastern time is going to be the new, uh, the new hyper ledger healthcare special interest group general meetings, uh, which will be occurring in two weeks from now, which is on October 14th. Uh, or sorry. Is this once every two weeks? It's once every two weeks. Correct. So there will be a, um, or sorry, not this meeting, but in two weeks time, we will be changing it. So the 14th will be the last Friday meeting we have, um, for the hyper ledger healthcare special interest group starting on the after the 14th session, uh, we will be moving them to Wednesdays. So then after the 14th, we'll be having a session on, uh, Wednesday or sorry, the next session will be on Wednesday, October 14th. This, this one is the last Friday session. Today is the last Friday session for the healthcare special interest group. We'll be moving it to Wednesdays at 10 a.m. Eastern time. Will the calendar be updated where we go download that? There'll be a calendar update starting on Monday for everyone to be aware of. And I'm going to send out another email to, to notify the group as well. So I apologize for that. Are there any questions or any comments, concerns on the date or time we got? We had about 13 to 14 people give us that survey. And of the 14 people, eight of them requested it to be on either Tuesday or Wednesday. And Wednesday in particular was voted on seven out of the 14 times. So awesome. Cool. We'll move on. And I wanted to have an open dialogue for anyone to discuss things we could do better. And potential, I also wanted to note in here potential projects that we, we'd like to see or present. I have a wish list of my own that, that I wanted to be able to, to kind of write down. And I figured we could write that down here in new business open discussions, whether it's presenters, whether it's specific projects or things we want to work on. So give me one moment while I log in, and I'll be able to edit on this sheet. I'll share it back. All right, can everyone see the screen? Cool. And please don't be shy. I know it's like kind of early for East Coaster is middle of the day for whatever. And it's a Friday. But any participation, any ideas are highly appreciated. So what are some things you would like to see from the general, the general special interest groups? What are your speakers or projects or, or problems that you like to kind of tackle and go over? Mike, I can start. So it'd be great to see some use cases. So all the, I mean, there's many different cases as we've seen now being adopted in healthcare like biotech, for example, good manufacturing practice, use of blockchain in those and clinical trials. If there are companies that are in in the US or globally use already applying these use cases, that will be really interesting for for us to see. I think Dan and I would be interested in that. And also some of the I guess the the problems or pain points they've they've experienced as well. So be it from a governance level or just technology level as well. Okay, do we have, do we have maybe it's probably overlapped with what she said, do we have a directory or for the all the hyper ledger based solutions in healthcare? Yeah, so within wiki healthcare, if you go to this the main site, there is a research resources section where you go to blockchain article citations and find white paper research that kind of covered a lot of that. There's the general SIG facts, frequently asked questions of how to be a member of blockchain technology cover all those type of things, as well as there's resources when within each of the groups to then their page, the general meetings page or some of the folks here too. But yeah, those are, those are really the links to go and find that as well as you can find other recordings from other sessions that have been posted here as well. And we have annual annual reports that have been given on the progress of the group and overall health and what we've been able to accomplish. So, but yeah, go ahead. Go ahead and do No, I was just thinking as he was just narrating, it'll be good to kind of focus on use cases targeted to specific healthcare industry. For instance, if we can invite companies who have used healthcare, maybe we want to know specifically how they have addressed the privacy security aspect of healthcare industry in their solutions. And how did they implement it? I know it kind of varies from business to business. But it will be interesting to hear different business or requirement from perspective. What were there some of the challenges from privacy security perspective, how they managed it in their blockchain implementation? Don't focus on that. That is just one example could even be, you know, interoperability, or did they have any kind of self sovereign identity aspect? Are they, are they, you know, prototyping or do they have anything in production, digital identity? There are a lot of people are using sovereign network with Indy, Hyperlegion Indy, have they used to anything in the healthcare space? So to kind of have this kind of a targeted use cases, how people come and present just those specific aspect, even if they don't want to kind of share the whole solution or anything. I think it'll help us to kind of get insights into how the industry, how companies are under, you know, implementing this or catering to the specific industry needs. I have particular ones I'm going to reach out to, which is the metallurgical project, pharma leisure project. Yeah. So like what I'm trying to say is a more granular, like who exactly are the companies and teams that you wanted to see that I can reach out to and need to get a presentation. I'm interested in those. Soon we will have soon we will have genomics.io give a presentation here. They are they use trusted execution environments within AMD SEVs to to help genomic sequencing companies being able to share genomic information across multiple channels. And they're they have experimented by using the Ethereum blockchain with this, but they're looking to use other types of technology, especially the hyperlegion as well. And they're going to give a presentation here soon with our group to discuss solutions like that. I can also reach out to another company called BlockCube. They do. Yeah. I think it's a hyperlegion based solutions for they have implemented. There were solutions for blockchain for clinical trials operations. Yeah, I know Rama him and I spoke last week actually. So we can we can get BlockCube to present for us as well. He does clinical trial applications that are just logged and audited on that. And not verified, but they're logged on it on BLT on hyperlegio fabric via BlockCube. So sure we can get him to come on and present. There's also any other ideas? I don't know. Okay. So I have this. So I'm doing work with the IMD business school at the moment. They're actually doing my startup. So they're researching our startup and following it. One of the things they asked about was token economics. And I think that this is I don't know if it's that relevant to this conversation, but it's something that I'm quite interested in. So and I think going forward, it would be something also around incentivization for health outcomes and so on as well. So healthy behaviors and also the other thing around a sharing clinical data as well. So I think that's a really sort of progressing into the next stage of how we use tokens in this environment. Yeah. I think those incentive mechanisms are very interesting, right? It just depends on how we've it also depends where you are in the world to construct the systems. Obviously the rules and regulations in place for that. But but yeah, it's it's understanding the provenance and how in legitimizing that health information to without having malicious actors involved in the process and having I think not all times, but most times you need a physician to kind of be that or someone that's clinically actionable to verify that data point of those outcomes instead of just trusting into the patient and consumer. That's at least the problems that I find out for those things. But I've also gotten recently into exploring incentives for creating models that are verified by blockchain that are not verified, but that are logged on a DLT. I think that's super interesting field that could be able to help for predictive circumstances and machine learning models and also replicating our neurological thoughts and the way we process information and data through deep learning type of models too. Okay. Interesting. Thanks. Anything else? Jonathan, I know you got something. Do you have some good ideas around this left to you to bring something up? Yeah, I think I'm often hesitant to really talk about like the like who's using it, what are they using it for? It's because it seems so much like a technology looking for a problem to solve. And I rather actually focus on the problems that need solving in particular just like what are the pain points? Like I know personally, so I'm going to advise you to the ABMS, American Board of Medical Specialties in the database and information technology and AI, et cetera. And I think, and I've been pitching blockchain for the cheese for years now to them and the solutions mostly for the authenticity and the provenance of information sharing because the ABMS is actually a sort of a board that oversees the other boards. It's like a parent board of the 19 or so daughter boards like internal medicine, pediatric surgery. And so they're not really, they're sort of chaperones of information. They're not the creators of information and and in just pitching the problems in information of veracity and authenticity is that there's only applications, not just necessarily for blockchain or distributed ledger technology, but a cryptography just, just the plane like hashing of your database and encrypting it and how do you actually like verify the authenticity of your data and how you share data across different member boards. And in which case, you know, shod algorithms and cryptography of verifying the key of the signer of that information is just like the first pass of getting information is more authentic and secure and how do you update your databases in a way that's secure and shareable and you can audit it over time to make sure that that the information hasn't changed. So that's not quite blockchain technologies yet, but it really is about using one is shod algorithms, hash algorithms. And then two is cryptography to sign that the data and then then be able to distribute that the public key. So other members can authenticate using that public key. So just basically decentralized public key infrastructure, which is like the underpinnings of blockchain technology, the tools and how do we actually disseminate that and the problems I see often is, well, what about key management? Like right now it's Bob down in the server room who's managing those keys. Like the CEO, the president of the other boards, they don't do anything with keys. So I see that as being a big barrier to adoption of this in all of the different applications of blockchain, but in particular healthcare. So how can we educate those people on how do you manage your keys? And so I think, you know, so key management, key rotation, key recovery. And then also just how do you create a system of distributing those keys to verify the authenticity among semi-trusted partners. I'm still struggling with this as far as this is a barrier to adoption. I 100% agree in many different aspects as that's why a lot of prior blockchain networks have been exposed and have had their vulnerabilities. And once you let someone into a blockchain network, they can really do many different things that could be unfortunately malicious. So I think if it's done well, then actually also opens up a vulnerability to that where you can imagine someone could interject, you know, medical licensing or board certification into the process, which is that it is trusted because it's been cryptographically signed, but like that actually would be an avenue for vulnerability. How does sovereign network, how does it manage that? They said they've got some tools to do all of this in each of the nodes. For key recovery? For management. You know, I don't know. I know the key infrastructure that they use, but like keeping that private key private is still a challenge. Remember, I still work on the Evernim sovereign architecture landscapes. They use another third party for that management of keys. I'm not sure exactly what the service was. And another kind of item that I thought about, you know, Jose Rietta, he implemented blockchain and the human health services in the government public sector. It's a public health. A few years ago, he was one of the first ones. I thought it would be interesting to hear his perspective and what lessons he learned and, you know, what were the nature of the problem. And he talked about his use cases and what were the lessons learned, the challenges faced and the, you know, how things have evolved from there. I thought it would be good to have his, because he was one of the early adopters. It'll be good to know his experience. And if you could just have him over, he wasn't the panel last week. I thought he brings a good background. Yeah, I think instead of having those general, like what were the lessons you learned? I was like, I think he does that often. Maybe it could be at current state, how the federal government or HHS could build upon what has been created, maybe, right? Yeah, probably he, when he deployed a few years ago, probably he did not have some of the things that evolved since then a little bit in terms of architecture, in terms of, you know, technology options and a little bit of maturity and more attention to privacy security. Since they were one of the early adopters and maybe ask about, you know, what could have been done differently? Or just to kind of, you know, instead of people trying to fit the solution to a problem and solution looking for a problem, I think in this case... His solution was pretty straightforward. It was just a vendor management system to attribute data and information to payments. And they needed to be able to send it, adjudicate it and automate a lot of those functions. And that's what his platform really did within the different silos that were within HHS. And he connected them into a DLT that would then give trust and access. Yeah, I think the problem was pretty much there. How we went to find that problem is probably an age old question that was going on in the halls of HHS for years, is how do we interoperate, how do we work better together? I mean, NIH and NSF and a bunch of other government bodies who, within the United States, who want to be able to send and interoperate research information and who's receiving grants and who's... You know, because a lot of times there would be grants being given to multiple people when it was always supposed to be given to one or was all the grants went to one single entity and it wasn't fair, it wasn't fair for the process. They're getting a DLT like that right now in industry to be able to authenticate that. And then the U.S. Treasury Department is also getting down that road of being able to use DLT to authenticate payments in the federal government. So, yeah, definitely want to have those type of individuals part of this process. I suppose one of the other challenges to adoption is that the data retention requirements of laws for either state or federal government is that you have to maintain that either database or, in this case, just distributed ledger. Imagine what better vendor contract to have than one that is required to be maintained forever. And so governments... My discussions with government agencies is that they don't want to run their own because they're required under their laws to maintain it. And there's all these legacy databases in each state government of MySQL or that Oracle databases that are still run because they're mandated and they have a maintenance contract that's required as part of that. Yeah. Another... I'll actually... Sorry, Indira, go ahead. I didn't mean to interrupt. Let you finish with that. No, I know government maintaining contracts, though are lucrative and sales teams love to sell them. They're absolute hell for the people in the delivery and the offering teams to actually do it. And I mean, obviously someone has to do the job of maintaining and operating, but yeah, it's a very interesting world. Yeah, I think IBM has also got this vendor qualification, supplier qualification, blockchain-based supplier qualification. And when you look around the industry, people are targeting use cases and there are consortium that are working on specific problems like pro-credits and they're doing professional credentialing. That's all good. But from an industry standpoint, you have to do this overall in the industry and to make a huge difference. Some of them probably are at this point maybe still in the early stages, some consortium are kind of doing overlapping work because you can see there are more than one consortium that are kind of working on this drug supply chain security act like Remedy and Medi-Ledger and there are different consortium focusing on the same thing. But I think one school of thought is that at this stage we are early, we need to welcome all ideas and then whichever the best one will win and then at some point we will converge. I think that's a good thought too. But if the efforts become so fragmented, even though all their intention is just to help their healthcare space, how does it all converge and what is the overall strategy? How can companies partner together? Not just providers and payers and pharmacies and all the stakeholders across the system, light science research and education institutes to partner together. I wonder if anybody is kind of, at least making an effort in the direction or to have that kind of conversation will be really helpful. Yeah, I think that's when it just comes to a, sorry, was anyone else going to say something? Yeah, I was going to comment on that as well because that's really interesting, Indira. I think also one of the things that I think about because we're talking with somebody just after this call, holding the data for hospitals and so on, and I think that that's a really interesting space after working in hospitals and knowing how cautious they are about adopting these technologies as well, even trying to get some of the systems that we were doing like electronic medical records and so on in Australia was really quite tough. So I just, also, if we can get some groups talking about some of those barriers that they've faced in hospitals or these healthcare organisations where you're trying to get those stakeholders on board as well and seeing the value of this. So a real use case where you've got like health professionals dealing with the end user in that hospital context where they're going to be recruiting those patients for clinical trials in those acute care settings as well. So that would be very interesting for me from a stakeholder point of view as well. Yeah, I think that's very good to have this. It would be interesting to have that conversation with Pharma ledger because it came out of this European IMI what medical initiative, innovative medical initiative or something like that. Sorry if I forgot what the acronym stands for. It's, I think that's one of the things that know what is recognized that, hey, if we have to experiment and explore this blockchain options, we have to go outside the walls of our corporations in order to get, because this is a collaborative network effect we can't benefit by ourselves. It is a network benefit, it's a network effort. So they reached out and they brought in a lot of different players and that's how this IMI was born and they've got a three to five year timeline. I think an effort like this is really will be groundbreaking for any industry to, will be interesting to see something like that happening in the US or maybe it's a similar initiative happening in the rest of the world. And maybe that's a good opportunity to kind of pull people together to have that conversation. And maybe in some ways this group could also play that role of bringing people together and kind of inviting them and say, hey, what could be done to kind of move in that direction? You know, now everybody is kind of working on their own use cases and problem and an each problem. But what does it all mean at the end of the day for the big picture? Your spot on. Yeah, I think, especially this group, our group in particular could be able to to help with that. And the interoperability group, right? I mean, interoperability group was really focused on the technical dilemmas and the ways to be able to get our systems to talk to each other. But you need to be able to have some type of not evangelization, but a method to connect with others that may not be as technical too. So maybe we have a, we can call it a semantic interoperability or not semantic, but maybe, I don't know, but the word would be, I don't know, ideas. I don't want to, I hate using the word evangelism because it makes me think of religion and though attacking things and platforms can somewhere be political or religious in a similar nature. I don't like using that word. Any ideas is fine. Even if you just spit it out. Well, don't spit like within six feet of another person, but yeah. So why did you mention evangelism in what context? We have within, so if you look at the screen here, we have the subgroups of a patient subgroup, a patient subgroup, a patient subgroup interoperability subgroup, potentially creating another subgroup within the SIG to help for, use case development is kind of similar to that. But maybe it's like technical evangelism so people can understand what and how this technology actually works. Does that make sense? Socializing the technology. Yeah, socializing technology. So, but you don't want to call it a social sphere for a number of reasons. You can, all the words in the English dictionary have been politicized so much, you just have to be careful. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's something that I just think of down the road more too. Okay. This is great conversation. I think this helps for my outreach because today and over the weekend, I'm going to be sending messages out to a lot of these folks that we mentioned to see if we could get presentations coming on the next coming months for them, as well as maybe even start some open source working groups to solve around specific problems. I think in a previous meeting, we did go over within the SIG before about what problems industry needs to solve. And another individual who works for National Institute of Health, Orlando Lopez, who's a friend of myself. I'm sure Jonathan knows him and others and Deira, you may as well. He actually created a human design session within his NIH AI blockchain working group that talked about some low hanging fruit problems. And we did the whole like the rose storm bud scenario to understand. I may want to take his recording or session and send it out to the group and take from that some of the issues and problems that it was more federally focused, federally focused, sorry. But it may help us with our ideation of thinking as well. Does Hyperledge have this, is it annual conference or by annual? There's an annual conference every year. It's usually in person. This past year was in Phoenix. It's usually in March. It's the first week of March. They got away with it actually, before COVID became very mainstream in the United States. But I don't think there's any plan to replicate an in person conference this year for the Hyperledge annual conference. Yeah, the reason why I asked is because that brings in the whole Hyperledge community together, whether it's in person or virtual, I think kind of tapping into that network to know who are all, who are all, or is it, is it this group is out of that? Or is there another group from that community? Yeah, everyone in, everyone built in healthcare is in this group. And then there's many different working groups. I mean, if you want to even see like, oh, here we go. Got to hate sharing screen sometimes. If you go on to here, I mean, these are all different working groups. I can't scroll the way down, but there's a climate action group, education, healthcare, public sector, social impact, capital markets. There's an identity working group, architecture working group. Like there's so many on here. And yeah, tons of different resources, tons of different resources, tons of labs, labs, projects, give me a part of projects within all the, you know, the Hyperledger greenhouse of tools. This site is this. This is wiki.hyperledger.org. Okay. So I'll put this in the chat so you can be able to find out and maybe find some other projects that interest you as well. And interest everyone else. Awesome. Is there anything else we'd like to describe as a group? I have to do a lot of outreach to folks and, but yeah, other than that, is there, is there anything else people want to be able to cover today? Well, I think if we line up all these people that will keep us busy for a year, I think. Exactly. And also I need to do a better job of, of sending out and reposting and getting more people aware and interested of these meetings as well. I would ask everyone if you could too, if I were to share something or the email is shared, please send it to anyone you believe would want to learn or understand or, or be part of these different working groups. Cause I think just the more people we have involved, the more energy we bring, the more ideas and thoughts that can make it all relevant for us. So. Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay. I think we can get, we can finish this meeting 10 minutes early. Thank you very much. We will be meeting on October 14th, Wednesday, 10 a.m. Eastern time. So put that down your calendars. There will be a schedule and an invite being sent to you soon as well. If there's no other questions or comments, I'll leave, I mean, right now I'll leave it to anyone to mention anything else. Good discussion. We kind of at least capture some thoughts on how we want to move forward. That's good. I couldn't agree more. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everybody. Yeah. Thank you for the morning. Have a good rest of your day and a weekend. Thanks. Bye. Thanks. Thanks, Mike. Thank you.