 So I have been excited to discuss this in this toolbox format because it's something that I realized a lot about myself in the way that I viewed romantic relationships when we started the company over 10 plus years ago, the myths that I brought into my relationships, and sometimes the success and lack of success I've had in this area certainly colored my view on communication and having happy healthy romantic relationships in my life. And I think to kick things off, I definitely want to talk about some of those myths that I know that I bought into and many of our listeners have probably brought in and many of our listeners have probably bought into as well around finding that partner and finding someone in your life to share romantic relationship with. Now, if you've been a fan of this show for the last decade plus, you know when we started it, we were younger, very focused on dating success and being the most attractive version of ourselves and having plenty of options and that's probably why many of you found the show back in the day. And as I've grown as a person and of course as our clients have come to work with us, I think for the most part everyone's come in with this mindset of how can I have a healthy romantic relationship by not being someone I'm not being fake. And I think one of the biggest myths that we hear time and time again is that there's this perfect partner for us and that once you find that person, everything just falls into place. It's no work. There's no conflict. There's no drama. Naturally, all of your passions and pursuits align and it's just happiness. And as I've come to realize in my own career and life that that's not the case romantic relationships are like any relationship in your life. And there's going to be growth. There's going to be change and there's going to be a whole lot of communication that we want to talk about. So in preparation for this, we wanted to first just kick off by talking about some of these myths. And I know Michael, you have some opinions as well around the myths when it comes to romantic relationships. This is always so funny to see in core confidence when we have like 10 guys and girls come together and talk about what they want to achieve. And very often you see this pattern where I want a partner and once I'm successful in dating and I have someone I love and spent my life together, then everything is easy. And then the next person introduces Simo herself and say, yeah, I'm in a relationship and I'm struggling. And the other person said, what? I thought it's downhill from then on out, right? So the spelling, this myth that we all seem to have and we can go into why that is the case that once I have a partner where there's butterflies and these pink glasses and that person is just perfect. Then I'm made, right? Then it's downhill, then I can chill out, then I can be happy for the rest of my life. And what people will very often realize then is, well, now you have a partner and that's really good and healthy. But now you're playing a different game with different challenges where you need new things that you need to pay attention to. And it's not necessarily easy. And now instead of working on a challenge by your own, you work on that challenge with your partner together. So you have even more moving parts in there than before. And the first couple of months were amazing. So how come this suddenly becomes difficult? Like this should not be difficult, right? That's what a lot of people coming into a relationship and being super fulfilled in the first couple of weeks and months is like, why is this suddenly becoming difficult? Like what has changed? And this is the big myth that no, it's not downhill from, you know, when, when you guys like come together, move together or whatever, whatever it is that leads to that committed relationship. It's like, no, this is just another game that you need to play now. We see it in Hollywood, right? We see it in movies. That's probably the easiest one. The guy gets the girl and they live happily ever after and blah, blah, blah. If you believe that myth, and it's, isn't that pretty? Isn't it great? Wouldn't everything be so much better if that's the way the world works? Well, sure. But what happens when reality doesn't match up with what we've been bought and sold? Well, that has an impact on our own well being. Not only does it have an impact on our own well being, it has an impact on how we go into relationships. If we've been bought and sold a bill of goods that isn't reality, well, then what is the behaviors that we go into the next relationship with that protect ourselves, that then now hinder our relationships from blossoming? Absolutely. And I think a big part of this is that life is challenging. And those challenges come into your relationship, especially your romantic relationship. Both of you will face challenges and ups and downs. And you can handle those challenges, and sometimes you could run away from those challenges and not handle them appropriately. But however you do so is also how you're going to show up in that relationship with your romantic partner. And much of what we're going to talk about today is the patterns to recognize in ourselves and to recognize in our partner. And also, as we always talk about on the show, how to reach your full potential so that you show up fully for your partner and not put all the onus or challenge or impact on the other person to change or become this perfect person for you when we all know that we have flaws. And Michael, I know you touched on this earlier, but I really want to dig a little deeper because I think one of the big myths around lust and romance and getting really emotionally connected with someone in the beginning is you have this burst of vulnerability, you have this burst of great chemicals, and that honeymoon phase, as we like to call it, well, it wears off. And the science, I don't think is really clear on what that period is for each and every individual, but we've all been in those situations where it's red hot in the beginning and it's new, it's exciting, we're learning about this person, they're opening up to us. And then there's a little bit less of that and a little bit less of that. And if you get caught up in these Hollywood myths or these romance novels or what your parents shared with you about relationships, well, it's easy to feel like I'm doing something wrong. And with a plethora of options, it's easier to feel like, well, that perfect person is just the other side of this relationship. So maybe I should give up. Well, AJ, the word that you're describing is one that we've brought on the show before, and it's called limerence. And limerence is the mental state of profound romantic infatuation. It was defined in the 1970s by psychologist Dorothy Tenove. And to come back to this idea of where certain myths are perpetuated, well, we just discussed this in our X Factor program with some of the guys over this idea of online dating. And online dating want you to use their app. They want you to be in constant chase of the perfect match. They're going to perpetuate the idea of the perfect romantic relationship because that keeps you chasing for it. They're even going to tell you that limerence is the feeling of being in love. And that when that dries up, that you that the relationship has dried up. Now, what we're going to be discussing on this show is that why that's not the end of the ride. That's just the end of that part of the ride. And then a better relationship comes on if you have the tools to be able to cultivate that, which we're going to be doing today. But once again, not only do we have all these dating apps and how many are there now? I can't even keep track. And we've been a company that has tried to stay on top of that for as long as possible. It is just too out of control at this point. I don't even know how many. Look at the names. Tinder. What does Tinder do? Light of fire. We think of burning hot flame. Okay, Cupid. Oh, my angels fallen from the sky. Match. It's the perfect match based on the algorithm. So even their names proliferate this myth that the perfect person is just around the corner if I search hard enough. Exactly. They don't say, Hey, AJ, you got to change. Hey, Johnny, in order for you to find Cupid, you got to reach your full potential. Here's something in advertising. If you're finding, let's say a client, somebody to buy your services, you're basically looking for a needle and a haystack and marketing that is difficult. So what do they tell you in marketing to do? Use your marketing to make more needles, right? So let's talk about on a grand scale of marketing that these companies are trying to do. They're trying to get you to buy into a reality that the perfect match is out there if you just find it. And they're trying to get you to buy into a reality, which we discussed yesterday, which was called a swipe life, which is you're going to find your perfect match and then you have infinite amount of opportunity to go dating and taste the all the flavors of the rainbow until you find the perfect person. And don't worry about it because swipe life is fun. Swipe life is you having all this opportunity. And of course, we come to paradox of choice and why options are great when in reality, many options offer you plenty of anxiety because you're now torn with so many options. It's difficult for you to settle in. So once again, we're looking at a world that is being created around a myth that is difficult to get out of. And if you want to see it perpetuated even more, think about if you go to Discovery on Instagram, what do you see? You see perfect lives of perfect people living perfect days with perfect romantic partners and working out in the most and they everyone looks amazing. And their workouts are awesome. And have you ever looked at one of the workout pictures and thought I wish my workouts were so awesome, but mine are just filled with me being miserable and having to drag myself to the gym and getting beat up. And when you see these people smiling, absolutely fit, it's like, where's that reality? No, the reality is that working out is difficult and it sucks, but you do it because you know that it makes you better. And then the reality of dating is that it is difficult. You're learning to live with somebody. You're learning to find out who they are and line up values that will allow you to grow together rather than growing apart because let's face it, when you meet somebody, you're meeting in an intersection of a trajectory of both of your lives. That doesn't mean that you're both moving in the same direction. That means that you have crossed paths. And then there needs to be a check of whether or not those paths are going into the same direction if possible. And if not, if you enjoy each other's company so much, then there is a discussion and work to try to change certain trajectories on a compromise on both sides so that you can grow together. We have two factors here working against us as humans, as homo sapiens, and we need to give ourselves some slack for that. The first thing we're battling is that we are the first generation to deal with this. We're the first generation that can take up the phone, starts wiping and find someone air quotes better. Our parents didn't deal with that. Our grandparents didn't deal with that. We can't go and go like, hey, grandma, can I get some advice? Because for her, it was like, dude, there were three men in my village. I picked one and I made it work. And here you are, 25 years old while there's Tinder. Let me swipe again. My mom got divorced in the early 80s and it was like, you don't do that. That is not an option. That's not on the table. And now here we are, the first generation to figure this out. Why is this so hard? Well, because we're the first ones to figure it out. We're the first ones on the big ocean trying to navigate a completely different terrain. And the second reason that ties into that is just our biology and how our hormone system developed to make all of that stuff kick in and the butterflies and the pink glasses. And Helen Fisher, she wrote Why We Love, which is an amazing book. It's probably written for endocrinologists, like people are really working with hormones. I'm not going to go too deep into that. I find that whenever a lay person talks about hormones, they get 90% of the stuff wrong. But here's a simplified version. So our biology, like growing up, growing up, living as a hunter-gatherers for most of like human society. First thing is you need to find someone. So you go crazy, like everyone, right? Everyone works, everyone, just everyone works. Second stage is you actually find someone and your system goes into, okay, we need to make babies. Procreation, that's the name of the game. So that's when the pink glasses come on, right? Everything is perfect as long as you make babies. And then comes the third phase, which is, okay, now we have a kid. So let's get serious. Let's slow down, you know, lust and desire because we have a kid to take care of. And of course, maybe in this, you know, 21st century, after three, four, five months of dating, there might not be a kid. Most likely there is no kid at that time, but our system still goes into that operating system and says, okay, it's been like three, four, five months. Let me slow down. Let me draw, let me down, regulate that lust and desire. And it's going to like the stronger pair bonding. And then I was like, what's happening here? Like, where did that, you know, where did, where did my sex life go? What, what happened? Well, guess what? You're, you know, the second pillar, that's the second thing you struggle against. You're, you struggle against the system that helped us procreate and raise children successfully for like hundreds of thousands of years. And 21st century, well, you know, it's kind of gotten a little bit boring. So let me get tinder and find someone new because everyone else on the platform is, you know, a perfect partner and mine is a little bit boring right now. So that's, that's what we're, we're going uphill here. We're going, you know, against the stream and we need to consciously work on that and be aware of that and give ourselves some slack. Like this is difficult. And we have very few people we can turn to, to, to ask for advice. And, and that's, that might be, that might be the biggest myth that we need to dispel here in this toolbox episode, because here's what happens when you look at couples getting married. So this is when you can tell they really take their relationship very, very serious, right? They know, they know that statistically 50% of marriages fail. They know this, they put rings on each other finger and they know it's a 50-50. And every single couple says, we will make this work because we love each other. Love will get us through. And the, the, the thing, however, is that it's not about love, like making a relationship work in the long term and create meaning and teamwork. It's not about love. It's about having the right skills to make it work. And such a big part of that is communication. And the way that we have been taught communication in relationships, certainly romantic, tends to be from our experience of our parents and the way that they communicated in their relationship. And I know for me, growing up in a divorced household, raised by a single father who got divorced in the 80s, I did not have a very good role model to base that communication off of. And in fact, a lot of the patterns in my life have been around withdrawing because my father did just that. When his relationship failed, he withdrew from future relationships. Why? Because his pattern was withdrawing from conflict. It was easier to be quiet. It was easier to pull away. And it's taken me years to realize that pattern in myself through the relationships and the way that I was showing up or not showing up and the way that I was struggling to communicate through conflict. Yeah, same here. My parents got divorced when I was three years old. I never had role models in terms of communication. And even now with my mom and my stepdad, they're probably not listening to the show, so I can say this. But communication is not always ideal. And I'm always shaking my head and like, whoa, you know, I need to go a different route here because I don't think this is, you know, I would enjoy that too much. So it's difficult to have like really good role models and learn like from scratch, how do you do this? And just to dispel a little bit of another myth as well there when you see like couples that have been married for 50 years and you're like, oh, they must have figured it out, right? They work together. And sometimes that's the case. But there's also an attachment dynamic, some very often in place there where you have someone who takes and someone who sacrifices. And that relationship also works for 60 years. It works and it looks really healthy on the outside. But it really isn't. So just saying that. So if you know someone who's been married for like 70 years and you're like, wow, it must be easy. No, maybe they just somehow, you know, figure it out and make it work. I'm sure a lot of people are like, well, this got really negative on relationships. But I wanted to set up that with the world that we're living in and a culture the way it is set up that you could see that the odds are stacked against you. And because of you're going to be influenced by a lot of myth around these relationships from all different sides and everyone trying to get your attention, everyone trying to get you to commit to their world view or their advertising or what they, how they would benefit if you were to think that there is a perfect person for me. So I wanted to just share that so that we understand what we're against. But I wanted to open it up to how we can create amazing, long lasting, loving relationships if we just understand and are exposed to great tools. Because no matter how much you love each other, and a lot of people think there's this idea of love will conquer all. Yeah, well, that's another myth as well. And Michael mentioned it earlier, but I want to hit home the point that it is, yes, love is great. Love is a great motivator for you to learn the correct tools so that you can create amazing, open, flourishing relationships. Well, the science is pretty clear. It's a coin flip if we don't do anything about it. Right. The odds are not in our favor. They're not against us. They're 50-50. If we walk into a relationship with someone based on lust, based on that initial phase and we try to commit to them, well, there's a 50-50 chance. So how do we improve that? Through science, through communication, through the right tools to improve ourselves. And I think that's a big last myth that I want to bust that you can go into a relationship and all you got to do is change someone else. And whether you're a guy or a girl listening, you see the flaws in the other person and you're like, well, I'm just going to change them. I'm committed to them and I'm going to work on them. And if I change them, then we have this beautiful relationship and I've made that mistake myself and I'm sure my partners have made that mistake in the past around me. And what we're talking about is let's take some agency and some responsibility for ourselves and let's develop the right tools as we improve and reach our potential to have that amazing fulfilling relationship that Hollywood has sold us because it doesn't have to be a dream and it doesn't have to be a myth if we actually use science to our advantage. And the first thing that I know we've talked a lot about on the show in the past and we're not going to go that deeply into it on this episode, we're huge fans of, is emotional bids and recognizing when your partner is trying to connect with you. Being someone who had never heard of that term before, wasn't really clear on what they were, that was pretty eye-opening for me in my communication. So we highly recommend you check out episodes 719 and 720 of this podcast a few years ago. We went deep into those signals in your communication with others and how to connect on a deeper way. Let's take it a step further around not changing our partner, but becoming curious about them so that we can explore together. When it comes to becoming curious about the partner, that is really the key. And this field in couples therapy, so we're not just throwing some self-help your way. This is digging deep into the psychology toolbox and research. And the gold standard that you really find there is called integrative behavior couple therapy. And this is really like cutting edge in that regard. And what this IBCT in short talks about are really three pillars. And the first one, and maybe the most counter-intuitive pillar, is you need to understand and accept that there are differences between the partners. That you and your partner are not on the same level of introversion, extroversion, adventure, spontaneity. And here's the kicker. You probably got together because you were different, because that was so exciting. So wow, what a rebel. What's with spontaneity? Wow. I'm amazed how good of a planner he or she is. And three months later, it's like, what's with all the spontaneity? This is really difficult for me to deal with, because now it's habituated. Now it's normal. Now it's like, what's with all the spontaneity all the time? So we can dig into specific techniques in just a bit, but to lay the groundwork with the principles. So you need to understand and accept that your partner is different. And let go of the idea that first you need to change him or her, and then it's going to be good, because that is not going to work, because your partner will have exactly the same plan. And that's what you're fighting all the time. The second is you need to improve how you interact with each other that strongly ties into this. And there are a lot of conversation skills and conflict management and so on that we talk a lot about on this show. So we might not have to go too deep into this. At this point, there are plenty of episodes out there that teach you this. And the third is to really highlight the positive that's happening in that relationship, because we have this negativity bias of nine to one. In a normal mind, it's nine to one. And that's a problem. That's a problem. If you spot all the, if you only ever notice or comment on the stuff that goes wrong, you have a bit of a problem. So being able to really shine that light of attention to, hey, we did really good there. Like the dinner we cook together, teamwork. And that is really the ability to create, to purposefully create that enjoyment together and that quality time together. I know that was a tough one for me. And the mindset that I had in the past was, well, I'm still here. I'm in this relationship. I'm committed. Is that not enough for you to see that I enjoyed the positives? But let me talk about the negatives. And it's so important. We've talked about this on previous episodes around giving feedback to others. It's so important that we highlight those positives and celebrate those positives openly, not just think about them, not just share a smile and make it seem so, but through touch, through actual words of appreciation and allowing each other to be grateful for all of those positives that are going on in the relationship. We know the negatives are on the horizon or they may be hitting you in your relationship right now. And you may be facing some difficulties inside of that relationship. But really sitting there and thinking about, well, what are all those positives and those positives should be something that are discussed frequently in your relationship, as Michael said, to strengthen it. And it's so interesting because we've heard the old adage opposites attract. And it's so exciting when you see someone who attacks problems in a different manner or plans in a different manner or has different pursuits that can open a whole new world of possibilities. But those opposites also lead us in points of stress and points of conflict to be highlighted and be held on to as a negative. And that's why I think it is so important again to face the fact that the positives and those positive emotions will wax and wane. But the more that we can discuss them, the more that we can share them and be open about them, the more that we can see them in each other. Yeah. And I think it's very important to understand that because your partner is different, doesn't mean they're worse, their approach is worse. Every one of us, we develop our own learning history, depending on the family we grew up in, the siblings we had, the friends that we had. And we develop over years a certain way of approaching problems. And some people might grow up in a family where problems are solved by shouting really loudly. And if you are the one who shouts the loudest and throws the most plates around, you win the argument. And then another one might have a group up in a family where everyone just sulk and goes in their room and slams the door. Now you bring the offspring from those two families together and one starts shouting and the other is like, what's with all the shouting? That's a problem. And so what you want to look at here is called the deep framework. So those are four factors where differences are going to really be important and you need to look out for them. So D stands for the differences that the partners have. They're really normal. One is more introverted. The other is a little bit more extroverted. One is more conscientious. The other is a little bit more chaotic. Neither one is good or bad. But it's the difference in and of itself that creates that problem and sitting together and talking about like where does this come from? Like how come that, I noticed that whenever we fight like you retreat, where is that coming from? And then you hear that story maybe that you know that maybe there was like really violent shouting happening and that person learned to retreat. And suddenly instead of seeing it as a flaw, it's like, oh, wow. Now I get it, right? Now I'm willing to, now that I understand where this is coming from, I'm willing to adapt a little bit and help my partner vocalize whatever is coming up. I know for myself and in my relationship currently with Amy that in those situations that learn behavior of retreating and getting quiet when there's a problem or a frustration being expressed by my partner and maybe not even fully wanting to deal with it. Well, her one asking me, I've recognized this in you. Where does this come from? And two, being honest with me about how that makes her feel when I do that has allowed me to work through that pattern in myself. So it's one thing to point out the flaw in someone else. And it's very easy to be like, you do this, you do that, you do this, you do that. But if we want to change and we want to grow together, it's also important to point out how it makes you feel when someone is behaving that way. And we've talked about this in boundaries episodes as well. And when you really care about someone and you realize that, wow, these behavior patterns that I have, well, I didn't even realize I had them. And they're having a negative impact on the person that I really care about and love and want to be with. Well, it gives you a stronger impetus to actually change to work to improve yourself. And we've been able to frankly do that with one another and share how her behaviors make me feel. And I think that's really important as we talk about communication throughout this episode. And I know we've talked a lot in the past about vulnerability and the levels of vulnerability. Well, these are the deeper vulnerabilities that many of us don't show with just friends or acquaintances or casual relationships. But these do come up in committed romantic relationships because we're spending so much time together. We're immersed in each other's lives. And I think for me, hearing that, hearing her being frank and honest and vulnerable enough with me around how those behaviors impact her emotionally was really key to me realizing, okay, I want to become a better partner and here's some ways that I can change and improve. Realizing that you're accepted for the way that you behave and gives you that freedom to actually maybe even change, maybe be a little bit louder, maybe be a little bit more vulnerable, maybe be a little bit more assertive, right? Because now you know that there's this understanding and the space to do this. The E and so deep framework, the first E are emotional sensitivities. So some people might need that routine, right? Others might be spontaneous. I am a total control freak when it comes to traveling. And former girlfriends always were like, oh, we just go, you know, to the airport and we'll just go somewhere. And that makes me freak out because I need to have like everything, I need to know like what I'm having for breakfast on day number five. Like I need to know that stuff, right? And both are okay. We both have our reasons, maybe past girlfriends were, you know, traveled with parents or family and they were always told like, you know, we go to Italy, we go to California and so on. And for me, like traveling with a wheelchair is like, I need to have everything planned because only then can I relax. When I realized my room is not on the third floor and I have no idea of how I get in there, right? So both again, make sense, but you need to understand where they are coming from so you can develop that empathy. And that routine versus spontaneity, it's so key when we can share, hey, you know, this is something that I really value, but I'm open and willing to try something that you really value while we're on vacation or while we're taking some time away. And it's a balance there, right? It's being open to that new experience and understanding how valuable that spontaneity is to your partner. Yeah, exactly. So we have another E, we have another E in the deep framework. And, and that's external stress, because that's just going to come, right? It's not there's some stress between the partners. But there's also like all the additional stuff that's happening out there, especially, you know, in 2021, or as how I like to call it like 2020 plus with the pandemic with homeschooling, right? There's a lot of external stress that that also comes in there. That external stress, it's important that we're all aware of it. And we understand and give each other an opportunity with dealing with that stress a little bit more space. I think many of us are very tied and close to our own stress and those external stresses and how they impact us. And it can be difficult for us to see it in someone else if they handle that stress differently. So for me, that stress shuts me down. For Amy, that stress needs to be handled immediately and typically through exercise. So for me, it's like, you know what, I just want to unplug. I just want to throw on the PS five play a little FIFA, just completely get my mind unplugged from this. And for Amy, it's, I just want to run as fast as I can on the treadmill. Both are okay. And if there is that external stress calling it out, Hey, this sounds really stressful. What, what is it that you need to help work through the stress or how do you feel is the best way for you to process this and encourage that in your partner? And I know the other thing is, you know, I'm very solution oriented. I, I like knowing like, okay, there's a stress and here are the three steps to manage the stress. And for Amy, it's like, well, I just want to feel heard. I want to process the emotions. I don't need solutions and solutions right now actually work against me dealing with that stress appropriately. And we didn't just magically understand that about each other, but we started to recognize patterns in how each other deal with the stress and said, Hey, you know, is there a better way for me to show up for you right now and asking those questions instead of just defaulting to the way that you handle stress, because as we've been talking about these differences are always present in the way that we've been raised and wired through nature. Hey, was that the question you used? How can I show up to help you better? Yeah. Everyone listening like please take note, right? This is such a powerful question to ask. I think it's important to remember that the only way that we have to make sense of the world is through our senses, which always points puts us in the middle of everything. So it's easy as a default to look at things while through your own lens. And it's not to say that you are self centered as at fault. It's that you have to condition and work to understand other points of view and other lenses because without that knowledge, you're only you're doomed to view the world from your own seat. And David Foster Wallace had a commencement speech. There's really famous. It's called water. And you can find it on YouTube. And there's many different points that he's trying to make to the young generation who are who are about to go off on their own into the world to make a name for themselves. And he talks about the hardship of it. And he talks about being young, but also he talks about empathy and its importance to understanding how the world works. And then as a young person that you're going to need to establish some empathy, if you're if you're going to be able to flourish, because you're going to be stuck in your own box. And it's not only that what your significant other is going through when it comes to external forces that they're stressed out about, as well as the the the relational experiences. But but others as well, because if you can have an understanding that everyone is lives are so different than yours, then you're going to be open to hearing what's going on. And not only open, you're going to be curious to want to know what is going on with others. And that curiosity is what's going to open the door, which is going to prompt you to begin asking the questions so you can get that information. This second E is honestly, I think the most important. And many of our members in our X factor accelerator come to us after a romantic failure or dissolving of a romantic relationship, whether it's divorce or just a committed relationship. And many of them will say it's because of the external stress, we couldn't manage all of the external stress. So if you're in a happy comfortable relationship right now, and you're you're checking these boxes, you're like, guys, this is great. Paying attention to these external stressors that are completely out of your control and your partner's control and how you can better show up in those moments. Or if they're happening to you, how you can better deal with them. And the way you deal with them, how it impacts your partner being aware of that. Many of us don't get that awareness until the divorce papers are in front of us. And all of a sudden like, well, wow, I had no idea with all this stress, right? I love coming home from work and just bitching about my boss and moaning about my coworker and going on and on about how tough life is and not realizing the toll that's taking on our relationship and how that's making your partner feel and how maybe your partner needs to see you taking some agency in that stress. These are really important conversations and what we go deep into an X factor around, hey, we have to be open and honest about ourselves to reach our full potential. It's not just about, well, you know, how can I manage the other person and what's going on in their life? I'm getting goosebumps. You're telling that story because it brought to mind someone who went through core confidence and told me later on, he said, I now know why my marriage failed. I now know why I got divorced. Because no one knows this stuff. I wish we could teach something like that in school, even though every third grade is like, wow, you're telling me that. But this is important stuff to know and especially now where so many external stresses come up and then instead of it's us versus the stress, it's my stress versus your stress. And that's not helping. That's not helping. So the P in deep framework, AJ, you already hinted at this. These are patterns of communication. So how do you show up when something goes wrong? How do you show up if you want something and be curious on how you do it? And then also be curious about how your partner does it. Like if there's stress, do you retreat? Do you attack? Do you blow up? Do you jump into PlayStation 5? Do you jump into the gym? Do you run away and distract yourself? What is that pattern? Because only when you recognize what's really happening, then you can work with that and then you can communicate it. But if you're not aware of it to begin with, well, good luck trying to work around it. And that's the fun part about it. Amy knows when I put on the headset and I log in to play some PlayStation, maybe in the middle of a work day for a quick game. Oh, it's AJ decompressing. Or if Amy goes outside to hit the treadmill in the car port, it's, oh, okay, Amy is burning off some steam. And when you recognize that in your partner, you also then have an opportunity to better show up for that. Right? So that's what we're getting to. We're getting a deeper understanding of ourselves, but also a deeper understanding of the people we care about and love. I think it's important to always set up like, this is why we're in this mess, right? This is not how you get out of it. But here's how you got in. So four skills you need to learn in order to keep the romance alive. First one goes right back to those patterns of communication. Like that's those patterns of behavior and watching out for how you approach and how you retreat. How do you not, how does your partner and how would you like them to? But how do you react when the shit hits the fan? Because AJ, you just said you're then in FIFA for, I don't know why you would ever go into, but you know, it's your PS5, you can do what you want. But like, you know that, you know, AJ is stressed out, unwind, go to the PS5 and unplug. But I think that many people listening to that, they've never thought about, like they've never connected the dots. Like this is what I'm doing when, when this happens. And you need to be aware of that, because at one point you need to be able to communicate that with your partner and say, hey, look, I've noticed that whenever I'm stressed out, I do this. So I just want you to know the reason I'm meditating for half an hour is not because, you know, I don't want to talk to you. It's my way of unwinding and recentering. Well, I want to encourage all of our listeners, if they want to retreat with me on PS5, they could find me AJ Harbinger, add me as a friend and challenge me in FIFA. Good retreat together. Oh, you're going to get your ass kicked in FIFA. That's well deserved now. Bring it. That point is so valid though, because it's given me new perspective around how not only do I process stress in my retreat pattern, but also has allowed me to see that there are other ways to handle it. That may also be helpful, right? So that was wired into me from the way I was raised with my dad and watching his patterns, but through experience and being in relationships and looking at these patterns and others. And I know Johnny started this conversation with, you know, how we got excited about all of this is just understanding human interaction and behavior and patterns. Like once you start to recognize this pattern in yourself and you start to date a few different people and get experiences with their patterns, you start to recognize like, okay, now I understand why this person is behaving in that way. And we then don't have to make it about ourselves, right? I don't have to take Amy going to run on the treadmill is like, oh, she must be mad at AJ. Oh, what did I do wrong? Like, and all that mental gymnastics that we do sometimes when we see these behaviors and others, when we have a deeper level of understanding about ourselves and about our partner. Well, we tend not to then self-inscribe these issues to ourselves and it makes for a much more peaceful relationship. Mentally, I was still in this place where you get your ass kicked in FIFA. So that's why I'm smiling the entire time. Anyway, back. So number two, and this is where this is where it gets really simple to implement. You need to have time in your calendar where you sit together and you talk about stuff because most people will come into a situation where there's external stress or internal stress. And then there's this clash. And then there's the explosion or the retreat. And that is never helpful because you're acting in the heat of the moment with when all the emotions are boiling up. And you need to know that maybe every Wednesday evening, there's this one hour where you sit together with music in the background and a cup of tea. And you just go like, Hey, here are a couple of things that went really well. And here are a couple of things I think we can we need to talk about and figure out and having that that marked in your calendar gives you the accountability. And you know, well, you know, this is going to happen. I might just as well say something or, you know, listen. And it also gives you the time to mentally prepare because, you know, us introverts, very, very logical thinking, very, very much like step by step lists and bullet lists and everything like this is the time that we need in order to make a good argument. So that hour needs to be blocked out. And it doesn't have to be a confrontation hour. This is, Hey, we're going to drink some tea together, eat our favorite chocolate and just discuss how the week went for us with the lockdown and being in a situation, spending a ton of time indoors together dealing with these external stresses with work from home and everything else. A major change that I mean, I did in our relationship was just going hikes together here in Los Angeles. And I found that hiking, something about walking side by side and not being directly facing one another. And I shared this in an X factor session. And one of our clients also started implementing this in his life that sharing communication while walking and being side by side and even talking about issues within our relationship or frustrations we have with one another. It really has lowered the stress level, the emotional response level and allowed us to communicate on a lot of deep topics that, you know, we hadn't even communicated. This is year seven of our relationship. And we've now carved out time every single weekend for that. We wake up in the morning and we go on hikes in the morning every single Saturday and Sunday. And I know I talked in the past about this on the show, having a standing date night where we know that we're committed to time together to be open to communicate to listen to one another. Because let's be honest, if we rail on social media, we talk about technology, we all know what happens when we get home from work or we get home from exercise or whatever else is going on. Or maybe we're just home from work already and we pick up our device and we're half listening and we're half on social media and we're half checking our email and we're half. And for us, the ground rule has been, you know, hiking, there's no phone out at sushi date nights on Friday, there's no phone out. And that's created the space to have this communication in a more frank way and just the opportunity to be more present with one another. It's an on demand culture. And you can't have on demand relationships because you're not dealing with a computer. You are dealing with a human being who has emotions that they have to contend with in order to communicate. When you're dealing with asynchronous communication or coding or computer language, it is on demand. You program something in it does something, it spits out whatever information or acts in certain manner. However, with human beings, we don't have that. I don't I wouldn't even want to call it a luxury because I because it's it's interfering with these with with our relationships. An easy example of this is my dad as and being younger, my dad would come into my room and he would say, oh, I heard something happened at school today or something happened with so and so today. Would you like to talk about it and any teenager being put in that position is going to say, no, I wouldn't want to talk about it. And so that is an example on demand communication. Listen, I just got off work and heard about this. I need you to talk about it. Well, I'm not I don't want to talk about it because I'm a teenager and I don't talk to my dad about things and I'll handle it myself. However, if my dad said, hey, listen, I'm working on something I got to go to Radio Shack. I need you to go along with me for the ride. Fine, I'll I'll go. So now we're in this in the van and we're heading to the mall and there's this quiet time and that space has put me in a position then to after about 15 minutes. Guess what? I'm spilling my guts about everything that happened that week to my dad. Why? Because there's a natural innate need to connect with my father. But I certainly don't want to do it on his dime on his watch when he's ready. It's got to be when I'm ready. Why? Well, one, I'm a teenager. I'm being difficult. But the other is there's a lot of emotions going on with a teenager that they have to work through in order to be able to communicate any sort of feeling and just to be understood. And that's not to say that that's not happening as we get older. It's just it's a little bit more it's easily easier to maintain. But we still have to work through those emotions. And we just can't come home from work and ask our spouse or our significant other to tell me what's going on. Because they might not have their thoughts collected or they might not be in an emotional space to be able to open up. And if you force them to, they're not going to be able to fully emote and articulate themselves to a place where they feel that they've been fully understood. So by creating the space, getting rid of the phone, putting on some enhancement for the situation that you're setting up to relax everybody. Well, guess what? After about 15 minutes, everyone starts dumping their souls out onto the table. Because they wanted to connect the whole time. But you just can't hit a button and say, Hey, I got 10 minutes, spill it. It's not going to work. And if we continue to think that we can bring on demand culture into our relationships, we're going to find that we have an on demand divorce settlement paper in front of us. I'm so glad you picked up on that, Johnny, because that was a question that was going through my mind as AHA was was talking that there might be listeners right now that are thinking, yeah, okay, so I'm ready, but my partner is never going to go go through with that. Like he or she will not sit down and do this. Now, I'm willing and eager to do this, but he or she might not. And I'm curious what you guys think the solution here would be. What what I've done in the past is I was the one leading and not leading by saying, Ha, I know exactly where you screwed up. But by saying, Hey, first and foremost, like this thing you did, I really appreciated it. And by the way, this one thing I did, I kind of screwed up and I'm sorry, let me know how I can do this better in the future. So I'm starting by being an example, hopefully a positive one, if not through what I did, but at least through me sharing of like, I'm, I'm opening that door and I'm stepping through first, hoping that the other person follows. And even if the other person is still a little bit timid about following, they're still getting feedback, because what I just told them is some positive reinforcement. Hey, I really liked how you cleaned up after me in the kitchen when I had to rush out for for work. And I really appreciate that and I don't take it for granted. You know, that's that's already feedback. That's changing, reinforcing that behavior in the other person. But I'm curious to think to hear what you guys are thinking about this. That exact strategy is what we use. And it's interesting because upcoming guests were excited to have on Dr. Therese Houston talked about. And this idea of the compliment sandwich in terms of giving feedback, well, scientifically speaking at Harvard, they did research on this and starting with words of appreciation first, allow the negative feedback to be processed and actually retained. So if we just launch into you're doing this wrong, you're doing that wrong, you're doing this wrong, we naturally go to the defensive. But we always love to hear it. We're doing right. So you start with what that person is doing right and you are frank about it. Then what I love Michael is you actually take responsibility for something you did wrong. So then you make it acceptable to have done something wrong and own up to it and want to improve on it. And again, asking like, how, how could I be a better partner? How could I show up more in this situation? I realize that when you were stressed and you raised your voice, I shut down and I withdrew. And with I, when I withdrew, that probably caused you to be more frustrated with me. And I take ownership of that now. It's a behavior pattern in myself that I've recognized I'm still trying to work on. Thank you so much for being patient with me. The other thing I would say, it's really important. Hey, there are times when your partner is just not ready for feedback. And also asking like, can I give you some feedback on this? Would you like to hear my perspective on it? Right. That at least gives them an opportunity to say, not now, AJ, like I'm struggling right now and I can't deal with you adding on another layer of all the things I'm doing wrong at home. That's truly okay as well. So I love that idea and that that back and forth and that ability to communicate openly and create the space as Johnny was saying to do so. The third one we've talked a little bit about, we've danced around, but I think it's really, really, really important to talk about how these things made you feel instead of blaming the other person for their behaviors, faults and adequacies, frustrations. If all we do is point blame in a relationship and all we're doing is throwing what the other partner needs to work on and we're never really bringing it back to how it impacted us and how it impacted us emotionally. Well, there's really no energy there or interest or reason for the other person to change. They just feel completely defensive and hurt and you don't really present another option or another pathway of like, in those situations, I would actually appreciate if you just raise your voice to AJ, let it out, yell back. That would allow me to know that you're listening, that you even care, because when you shut down and you withdraw, I feel that you're not listening. And I was like, whoa, holy cow, that's eye opening. I'm listening. I'm hearing everything. I don't know how to process it. But maybe the other person needs you to get emotional too, to see that response, to show that you care. This is at the basis of every misunderstanding out there when people talk that we assume how we feel was the other person's intention. So what AJ just said made me angry. Therefore, it was AJ's intention to make me angry. This is what's going on, like subconsciously for all of us, all the time, and it's wrong. Because if you're trying to guess what the other person's intention was, most likely, you're freaking wrong. And so instead of saying, hey, AJ, you know that you made me angry and it's your fault, like this is already an argument that does not work. It doesn't work. But if I told you, hey, AJ, that thing you did, it kind of made me, you know, it made me a little bit angry. Now, you don't, AJ doesn't get to say, no, that's not true. Because it is like, AJ doesn't get to tell me how I feel, right? You can't, you could say, well, that was not my intention. I didn't mean to do that. But you can't say, no, Michael, that's not true. You don't feel angry. They screw you. You can't. You can't. And this makes this so vulnerable and powerful because it breaks that loop. It breaks that loop of it was your intention all along. Now, we are huge fans of listening. In fact, we did an entire implementation session around this exact thing in our X Factor accelerator as part of our monthly implementation sessions. And in this conversation workshop, we dug deep into listening. Many of us say, oh, I'm such a great listener. In fact, I can multitask while listening. I can be scrolling on Instagram and checking my email and I'm getting everything. So if that's you, fast forward. No, wait, don't fast forward through this part. You probably still need to listen. So let's walk through these levels of listening so we can all improve our listening skill, Michael. Oh, sorry. Sorry, what did you say? I wasn't really listening. I was swiping on Tinder. No. Okay, so here are your levels. And in the workshop that we did, I actually had this on a slide where on one end there was like Darth Vader and the other that was Yoda. So let's start at the Darth Vader end at the lowest level, the lowest quality of listening. And this is you listen to reject. So I smile at you and I look at you and I nod my head and when you're done talking, I say, no, you're wrong. This is why. And yeah, I'm still listening, but the intent is kind of, you know, or the dark side of the force. If you're watching this on our YouTube channel, it was when Johnny was re-enacting his arms crossed with his dad moment, you know, that listening to reject. I don't care about what you have to say. I'm here, but you could say it and I'm rejecting it immediately. We default to that when we're in tense, pressure filled, stressful situations and sometime that's with our partner too. But if we're listening to reject, well, that's not a healthy way to communicate. Well, let's upgrade this just a little bit. And now you're listening to give information. This is when people go like when they like vocalize or have their hand like up a little bit, it's like, this is like, okay, just, just stop, just stop because I have something to say, right? And we've all been in conversations where the other person just waits for you to make a nanosecond of a pause so they can jump in and interrupt you and give you that better information they have, right? That's, that's pseudo listening. That's not making a connection. Next is, and this is, this is where we get towards the middle ground already. So now you're listening to receive information. So I ask AJ, hey, what do you, you know, like most about playing FIFA and getting your ass kicked by all the future listeners that we have on the show. And now I shut up because I'm really curious about the answer that, that I give from, from AJ and, and given that the guys didn't have time yet to kick his ass on, on FIFA, we have to wait with that a little bit. But, but that is the idea. I listen because I seriously want to hear the information that is going to come out of your mouth. But it's still, it's very much on, it's just one level removed from what's next. And that's, you listen to understand the other person's content. And content means the pure data, the pure data that, that comes out of someone's mouth. And for example, when I tell you, when I tell you, I really like tomato sandwiches. Now the pure content is Michael likes tomato sandwiches, right? But if you actually, is there such a thing as a tomato sandwich, I just made that up. Yeah, this is an artifact of the improv, improv workshop we did. But now you know that if you listen to the content, well, Michael likes tomato sandwiches, whatever that might be. And, but apparently if you listen a little bit further, which is the next step, listen to understand the other person's emotion. Now you're like, okay, I think he doesn't like tomato sandwiches. I think that was, I think it was being, you know, a little bit negative about that. So, and, and when you start to listen to understand the other person's emotion, now you're in the realm of the emotional bits we were touching upon a little bit earlier. And this is, this is almost the gold standard. Take it to the absolute shadowy level and you're listen to understand the other person. And this is, this is important enough to repeat, listen to understand the other person with all that's going on and all that's coming into what they're saying. I like equating this because that, and that improv tomato sandwich example is perfect for this because when we, we start to listen to really understand the other person, we're not just thinking about, oh, well, I don't like tomato sandwiches. We're starting to realize, okay, Michael is, is vegan. And he's making conscious choices around his food. And I want to get to know, well, what are Michael's core values around being vegan? Is it environmentally based? Is it health based? You know, that is a deeper level of understanding than just saying, okay, next time I have Michael over, I got to have tomatoes in the refrigerator. But many of us stop at those early levels. We just exchange data, and we're on to the next thing. We're back to our phones. But the people who are really good at building deep, long lasting relationships, they search for that deeper meaning those core values, those beliefs, those morals that the other person is sharing through all this data that's being exchanged. That's how we show up for someone. And outside of a relationship, like listening to the other person, you practice that skill, you'll probably not run out of things to say. Probably not. Because just me saying, and by the way, no, please note the, the satiric way I said this, right, don't set me tomatoes and sandwich slices. I really like tomato sandwiches. And now we become curious about the entire thing. Like, there's so many favorite tomatoes. Why? When did you first eat this? What was the best tomatoes? We have a really weird example that we picked here. I should have thought this through a little bit more. But you dig into that and really become curious about that. And something that we just, this weekend, we discussed in core confidence that anxiety and curiosity, they can't really coexist. It's a zero sum game. You can be really anxious about what is that person going to, how is that person going to respond if I say this and that? That's anxiety. Or you could be curious and say, I wonder how that person is going to react when I approach them. And I say, hey, you like ham or something like, I'm just going to be curious about that. And you'll see that anxiety is displaced by that curiosity and bringing that into a conversation with your partner, where it's not, oh, I just hope I don't say anything wrong. But it's this, I'm curious to find out what I did wrong and how I can do this better the next time. And this curiosity comes in. And it doesn't make room for anxiety in there anymore. In a world where everyone is asking for your attention and not only are they asking for your attention, they can make money off of your attention. Well, then your focus becomes a superpower because it's the one thing that everybody wants from you. And so if you are able to direct it to where you need it to go and where you want to excel, well, then that is, that's the superpower, right? So think about how anxiety plays with curiosity. Where does anxiety force your attention? Inside. Inside. Where does curiosity force your attention? Outside and present. And whatever, whatever it is that you're curious about. So if you want to develop this, this asset that you have, that everybody is willing to put all of their resources in to get, well, don't you think that you should regard it in such high, or see it in such high regard? And if you need to be able to look at it and respect it with such high regard, then it is the one thing that if used properly will get you whatever it is that you're looking for. And to go back to a point that you made about people who feel that they're not very good with conversation, well, it's because their attention, their focus is in the wrong place. And as you said, if you want to get good at conversation, you want to get good at small talk, you want to get good at holding court, you have to get good at listening because all the answers, all the stories, all the emotions that you need to create, captivate and connect are in the other person. And notice how we've just, I don't know if our listeners picked up on that, but we've just gone full circle. We started by saying, usually we try to change to the other person. And we've arrived at, be curious about what's going on both inside of you and the other person. And suddenly those differences are, well, there's still a little bit of a problem, but they're not the problem. They're just something you have to work with. And the moment you understand them, that's when it's no longer you versus me, but it's us versus the external stress. And then comes, there comes the tag team and everyone has their strength and their spontaneity or their planning and the introversion, extroversion, all of that comes together through curiosity.