 Hello, Australia, and welcome to this month's Redback Business Skills webinar. I'm Daniel Kim, your host in our monthly series aimed at informing, educating, and inspiring our online community. It's great to have you company. Regular viewers will notice a bit of a change to our webcast layout today. Most of the old buttons are now in the top right, and they've all got different colors. It's all part of a very exciting platform refresh, better functionality, and a tidier look, the best of both worlds. From the program today, we are talking about your personal brand and your professional brand. We all know we've got one, whether we consciously manage it or not, and we're all told we need to work on ours if we want to get ahead. But what exactly makes up your brand? How do you build on it? And it's 2018, the digital age of ubiquitous social media, so where do you draw the line between the two? Well, joining me live in the studio today to talk about all of these issues and more is our resident brand-building guru, Melita Valkic, from Enviya Solutions. Melita, welcome to the show. Thanks, Daniel. Now, personal and professional brands, these are... The distinction between the two isn't as clear as it used to be. No, it is murky walkers, waters out there for everyone at the moment. And it's difficult to distinguish one between the other. There are ways to do that, but then there's also ways to intertwine them. That's right. And you've got all these different competing social media platforms that don't want to outdo each other. Yeah, and it's about understanding what you say on one platform, as opposed to the other, too, because your brand needs to fit into that platform. And it's not always about social media in itself because your brand is a lot bigger than that. But it really doesn't matter what kind of work you do. It really applies to everybody. Understanding your brand is crucial to business success. Absolutely. And I mean, we're all walking brands, if you like, whether you're working for yourself or you're working for someone else. Walking brand. I never thought of it that way. Yes, I am my own walking brand. Absolutely. Yeah. You are. Yeah, yeah, that's it. And also, just in terms of your own walking brand, you've been both in the corporate world and outside of it, and you work with a lot of small to medium enterprises, too. So you're very well placed to understand some of the nuances there. Absolutely. Corporate is a little bit more rigid in their branding perspective and rightly so, whilst the smaller SMEs, we've got more play in that. We're able to be more flexible and pivot with the way we're doing business. That's right. Looking forward to a lot of your insights coming up. And for our viewers, you can take part in the conversation by clicking the dark blue Ask a Question button throughout the presentation, and we'll answer your questions as we get them. For our viewers also, Melita is very kindly offering a free 30-minute consultation, the details for which are coming up at the end of the webcast. So do stick around if you're keen on getting some extra help with your brand strategy. Well, thank you, Melita. It's now over to you. Awesome. Well, thank you. So I guess we'll start off with this slide. As we, as you mentioned, we're talking about branding versus personal branding. So it is, we are a walking brand, whether you like it or not, you are. And so many people think when they think branding, they just think, oh, my logo, or possibly even their website. And usually there is so much more to your branding than just that. So these are just some of the things I always talk about with my clients because they usually miss the mark on at least one of these. So it is just, it is about the culture that you create within your organization because that does hold a big part of your branding. Because when people deal with your business, they think of what they're dealing with. And so that whole culture within your organization is a part of your branding. And understanding what your mission and your vision are, also needs to be encompassed within all of that. So people are very clear when they're working with your organization, what your brand's standing for, because that needs to be in alignment with some of their decisions as well. The voice, when I talk about voice, people usually get a little bit confused. And it really is, it's a decision of whether your branding is going to be a little bit more fun, or are you gonna be more corporate and more serious? So that will determine how you put your marketing collateral together. So whether it's you're putting out a blog or whether you're putting out any other material that advert or whatever it may be, it all needs to be aligned with your voice. And of course that then comes into play with your branding, right? So then obviously the people that you put in into your organization, they need to fit in with your branding. Fundamentally enough, people don't really consider that. And I'll talk a little bit more about your personal brand versus the business branding. And then the whole, we're talking about as a business perspective, but we're also talking about it on a personal level. And we sort of touched on that a little bit earlier when we're having a chat. You know, when you go for a job, people are checking you out. So it's really important that when you're piecing together your branding, that your people fit in with what your mission and visions are. Fonts are obviously overlooked a lot as well. Fonts evoke emotion in people. So whenever you're putting some stuff together, it has to fit in with your brand overall. So if you've got a bold, thick font, that's like a smack in the head. Or you'll find when people are looking at the flowy type of fonts, that's more softer. It's a little bit more appealing. It's a, you know, you usually see those in weddings and stuff like that because it's really nice. And so it makes you feel something. And branding is all about emotion. And then again, the biggest thing is you, the person driving it. It's about what do you stand for? What's your business encompass overall? And that all comes under branding. So there you go. It's a little bit more than your logo. So I heard this little statement some time ago and I think it's really encompasses what branding is. And it's what people say about you when you are not in the room. Because if you've built up your brand enough and you've got all those previous points that I mentioned down Pat, people are going to know exactly what you stand for, know what your brand's about, know what you do. And you don't have to be in the room to explain that. So that really is what your branding is. And it comes down to storytelling as well. So of course, the story you tell all comes out within that brand. So I wanted to talk a little bit about have you entered into a marriage and whether we're talking personal branding versus your business branding. You know, what have you just said yes to? And for me it's, I'll give you an example of my business where yes the business is envious solutions but the branding is me. I'm the brand because I'm the one that goes out there meeting people. So you know, you guys when you're out there networking you're representing your brand and that's marketing. It's an element of marketing. So when I hand out a business card, you know, that's again with my brand when someone goes to my website, that's the brand. When they interact with anyone within my organization that's the brand as well. It's how my, you know, the people I work with get that sense of who it is that they're dealing with. So for me it's like I've entered into a marriage with envious solutions because everywhere I go I'm representing my brand. So people know, there's no real distinction or there's no clear cut between me and envious solutions. So it's, you know, it's all a part of that branding experience that I think people not necessarily look at it that way but it pretty much is a reality of it all. So can you have a personal brand versus, well, let's just cut into the personal brand of course and yes, of course it is. So the benefits are is it allows you to be more flexible. Like I mentioned, I've been in the corporate world but your personal branding very much allows you to pivot. So it's easier to move, tweak your branding more so than if you're in a corporate world because in the corporate there's obviously so many steps that need to be followed. There's red tape and so forth and there's a whole element of people that you need to look after before you change anything when it comes to branding. But from a personal perspective, it's easier to pivot that and it's more fluid at the end of the day. So that's absolutely, you know, that's the part of your personal branding but one of the other elements about personal branding that people forget about is how do you use that when you're out and about meeting people? So my personal brand, when I'm speaking with people, you've got to remember that whatever you do, as we mentioned earlier online, social media, people are going to check you out, right? So for instance, when I'm out networking, you meet someone, you may have that interaction, you may feel like you're going to be able to work with them. So then what do you do? You ask for a business card. So we've asked for a business card and then what do you do? If you're actually proactive, you'll go back to the office, you get on LinkedIn and check that person out. If their credentials work to what you're looking for, you have a look at what they're all about, you're going to ask to connect with them on LinkedIn. Okay, great. So we've now connected on LinkedIn. You may follow up. A few days later, I can guarantee you're going to check them out on Facebook. So then we go to Facebook, I have a look and maybe I can see some odd things out there. So maybe you've had a big night out and you've done some things that may, I'm not telling you what you can and can't do in your personal life, absolutely. But at the end of the day, that may make me not want to connect with you and question what kind of a business you're actually running. So you've got to be mindful of that. And I'm telling everyone that talks about this with me, it's like go out, have a good time on the weekend. That's all fine, just don't post it on social media because it will come back and bite you regardless of whether you think it will or it won't. And I just find that people fall short there because even when you're going for a job interview, that's one of the first things people will look up, right? So they will look at your profile and have a look at some of the things that you've done in the past and right or wrong and they're not going to tell you they're not employing you for that reason. But at the end of the day, it is a little bit of a decision that comes into play of why they may or may not decide to work with you. And it is a fact of life in business in 2018. That's how people do recruitment. They do an extra reference check, so to speak, by looking you up on social media. And we've all had those stories where I think six months ago there was a lady in New Zealand who had applied to join the New Zealand police force and the end outcome was her application was knocked back and part of the reason was they'd done a check on her on social media and they didn't like the comments she were making or some of the pictures and things like that that were posted on her account. Because it didn't fit in with the police forces in New Zealand's, maybe not brand, but the values and what they want to stand for and what they want to be known for. And people and companies are talking about culture. They're talking about culture fit. They're talking about governance. All of these are hot button issues at the moment. Absolutely. And you can't separate the people from a business because legally, yes, a business is an entity and you can do a business and things like that. But it's run by people at the end of the day and people make decisions and that's why the branding is inextricably linked. Absolutely. And so, I mean, I guess the solution for you guys if you want to sort of be doing something a little bit different. And this is something that I personally do. So I'm happy to share that with you guys is I actually have two Facebook accounts. So I will have this two milled of ours just say if you guys want to connect with me by all means do that, but make sure you find the right milled of ours because there's one where you'll see me like this and there is another account which has got my kids as the profile. And that's purely done because I don't want to mix. Who wants to know about what my kids are up to on the weekend? Really, like, you don't care. We've got a business relationship. So you want to know what my business views are or what marketing techniques I'm using and what strategies I'm using that could possibly help your business, right? And that's why you'd be following me and connecting with me. You don't want to know what I ate for dinner, which I don't post anyway, by the way. But, you know, at the end of the day, it's like, so have two accounts. And so I have one where it's family and you know, I've got family overseas. So they're happy to see what the kids are up to, what we're up to and that sort of stuff. And then I have the business stuff where if you connect with me on my business Facebook page, we're talking about like networking events I've done or whether I've learnt some Fandango new process or there's a new app out there because there's apps everywhere, guys, that make your life quite easy and simpler and more streamlined. But, you know, I'll talk about that sort of thing and then possibly share some things that are going on within the business as well because obviously that's linked as well. But... No, I don't think I've ever heard of anybody doing that with two Facebook accounts. I've heard people use a Facebook account and then create a Facebook page for their business. Well, yes, you do. But yeah, so have two separate Facebook accounts like that. That's the new... Well, it's just... Because I'm married to my brand, right? So I couldn't very well be having posts around that real personal deep stuff. And who wants to know that anyway? At the end of some people might, but, you know, every now and again I might throw something random where, you know, maybe we've been on a holiday and I might post a couple of images because people do... Because what you said before is people... We connect with people not so much the brand. It's the person behind the brand, right? So it's about... Yeah, we want to know a little bit of that personal side of things. Like, yeah, I want to know that you went on holidays and where you went. That's awesome. But I don't want to hear every single little detail. Yeah, I see. Leader, we've got a question from James. And James is asking, is it too much work to be balancing two... Or managing two accounts? No, not really. Because you'll probably find my personal one gets not much done to it, to be honest. OK. No, not really. Because I spend a lot of time on the business brand because obviously I'm wanting to connect with more people and do business. The personal side, yeah, that gets a look in every other day. So no, not really. Well, I've got a follow-up question to James's question. And that would be, have you ever made a mistake by posting the wrong content on the other one? No. No, OK. Never. Yet. Not been yet. So, no. But so then, you know, and then it becomes the... Obviously we've talked about LinkedIn, so I don't know if you want me to talk... I mean, I'm happy to take any questions if you guys want to know whether you should be posting a lot of stuff on LinkedIn or not. So please feel free to put in those type of questions. So with business branding, I just wanted to go a little bit on that too. So the benefits are easier to sell on a business perspective. It's no longer one person's responsibility. And yet you still need to remember, it's what people say about you when you're not in the room. So regardless of whether it's your business or your personal, it's still, as a business perspective, when you're employed for a large organisation, you're still representing that brand. So it's still really important that whatever you put out there is in alignment with that. So there are some choices you may want to consider when you're doing your branding, and it's always to actively promote it and shape it by telling your story, because stories sell. People buy into your story, and that's why people want to connect and work with you, because if that's in alignment with what their beliefs are, then that's really important with your branding. So obviously, like I said, you want to show some of your interests, but not too much of your interests. So like I said, if you've gone on a little holiday somewhere, you're happy to do a couple of snaps of where you went, what you loved about it, but let's not go too deep, guys. It gets too much. What are your experiences? So there are people out there that I know that will post every single day, and it gets monotonous, and you get sick of seeing them in your feed, and it gets to a point where you unfriend them, you unfollow them. So be careful about what experiences you're actually sharing, because remember your audience. We need to remember what they actually want to be hearing. It's not, even though you are the brand, it's not about you, it's about what your audience are going to connect with. So what are you working towards? Share a little bit of that, because people want to know you're a real person. The branding aspect, whether it's corporate or not, they still want to know a little bit about what achievements you're working towards. And then, again, it's your passions, your goals and aspirations, because all that is intertwined. It all starts to mesh in together. So we started the conversation of whether, how do you draw the line in the sand, and are you going to be on one side or the other? So yeah, it all intertwines to become you. So I wanted to talk a little bit about how does this affect your career, and like I said earlier, be careful what you share on social, on your personal pages, guys, because you do get looked up by potential employees. And that's on LinkedIn as well, because some people are using LinkedIn in a little bit of a way that's not quite what I would say is the right platform to be sharing certain information, but it gets done. And I'm seeing more and more of it. Guys, LinkedIn is very corporate. Let's keep it corporate. It's becoming a bit of a Facebook, isn't it? It's becoming a little bit of a Facebook. And I cringe when I see some of the stuff that people put out there, it just... And I think LinkedIn is following some of the algorithms that Facebook uses, where we get to see now what other people have clicked like on. Yes, absolutely. It's not even like I'm seeing what Melita Vowchich has posted. I'll see something where Melita Vowchich like this, and I'll see something else. I know, right? So then it becomes like very much so. It's becoming a little bit like Facebook, but it's still a professional platform. So it really is about the articles, it's about what's going on in your industry, share those stories, because that's what the branding... That's what's building up your brand and your knowledge. So you want to be seen as the go-to person for that particular industry stuff that you're into. So I just kind of wanted to touch on Magrars and just a survey, not to do with Magrars, but a survey shows that sales reps that use social media as part of their sales techniques will outsell their peers by 78%. And so a good example of that is Magrars Real Estate. So even though Magrars is a big brand that everyone knows, they still have their sales reps individually have their own social media pages that they run themselves. Is that a guideline, top down? Yes. So they really, they have to build their audience. They have to build everything that they're posting each day. So some you'll have a look at because I follow some of the guys from Magrars Real Estate because I've worked with a few real estate agents in the past. And it's, they really share the community aspect. So you'll find that their agents will go around to the community, to different restaurants or different things that are going on and share that. And that's how they build up their branding, right? Because they're dealing with people. So they want to get in amongst the community and they want to be working amongst that so they get seen, they get known. So what do you think of when you want to sell your house next? So it's a clever way of doing it. And it works. And it goes back to what you were saying a bit early on about being monotonous and what kind of experiences are you posting about? If it's always about your work, work, work, work, work, you can sort of predict what's going to be posted about in the next month or so. But if you've got an example where it's about the community and it makes so much sense for a real estate agent because that's where houses are, in a neighborhood and in the suburb. Yeah, get to know the locals and it works perfectly. And there's a lot of agents in my local area that do exactly that. And there's probably only one in particular that I can think of, I won't mention them, but they do an awesome job. And they do share the stories of the houses and the people that they saw the houses for. So you actually get to see a bit of the story behind, wow, these guys have been living in this house for years and they've now retired and they're looking to downsize. It's just a lovely way to build up the relationship because that's what you're trying to do. You also talked about branding, being an exercise and evoking emotional responses. And so if you're able to do that storytelling component as part of that branding exercise, that's something people can really easily connect to. Yeah, because we buy into stories and that's our nature, it's human nature to be intrigued by someone's story, whether they're Richard Branson or whether they're Daniel. We wanna know your story and we connect that way. We love stories, we love listening to them. We think about our own stories and try and find parallels. Yeah, and how do we relate to them? Yeah, absolutely. So it is all a bit of a balancing act and the question that came in earlier, it's like, how do you juggle to accounts? So as much as your true self, you're willing to share publicly is also your personal brand and we've kind of touched on that. Sometimes people lose control and that's where I say they maybe go overboard or they may have done some things on the weekend that maybe aren't as great and wanna be shared amongst the followers. Sometimes people can become a little bit unapproachable because they've built themselves up so much that people feel like you can't possibly bump into them in the street and have a chat because they've made themselves something a little bit too much and I think there's a fine line between that. It's also you really need to be authentic in your story. Some people start and it's easy to see where people have faltered, they say their brand stands for something but then they go and do something completely off kilter to that so it's important to stay true to that and sometimes people become inconsistent because it becomes hard to manage sometimes. We all get busy and we've all got social tools that you can do to schedule some of your things on there as well which I'm sure most of the listeners are aware of but I mean with Facebook you've got your own scheduling tool within that and I suggest you all use that because otherwise Facebook will... Well, they don't like it when you use other platforms to schedule and they will not show your posts to other people because of it. I actually have never used that tool before but I think I know what you're talking about. Is that the one where you're about to post and it says share now or you can... Well, there's the schedule, yeah. So you click on the bottom and it says schedule your post so you can schedule a whole month's worth of content. We've got a question from Jessica here. She's asking about the topic of being inconsistent. Are you referring to consistency in terms of the timing and the frequency or are you talking about consistency with regard to the message and the values that you want to represent? Your message, your values and your timing. When I say timing, I mean you might want to change that up like whether you're posting on a Tuesday or a Thursday or stuff like that but if you decide that you want to post three times a day then I suggest you, not three times a day, three times a week for instance, then do three times a week. Like I have a motivational Monday so I will always post motivational piece every single Monday across my socials and people have come to expect that. Got you. So do that. That's what you've, you know, said you'll do. Yeah. Do it. That's pretty similar to this particular webinar series right now. Our Redback Business Skills webinars are on every second Tuesday at an 11 o'clock time slot. Yep. So that's something we've built over I think about four or five years now where people in our online community expect on every second Tuesday of the month the Redback guys are doing a webcast. That's it. And so if you didn't turn up on a Tuesday at 11 o'clock, you've lost a big audience. And I suppose that is, that's something that goes a long way to building credibility behind your brand. Yep. I know somebody who on social media, whatever he posts, he always finishes with a particular hashtag and he says, hashtag be you be true. And it almost doesn't matter whether he's posting out about food or his latest haircut or whatever it is. But he's always writing, be you be true. And at first it was like, what does that even mean? But after a while, it becomes his sort of online identity. And it's like, oh, yep. There he goes again, be you be true. Yeah. And it's funny how people use catchphrases like that. And it becomes a part of your brand. That's how people become to know you. So they work. I know someone that does a few of those as well. And that's how you know them. It's like, oh, yep. And just repeat it even before they say it sometimes. Yeah, and you build that connection. So some of the mistakes you may want to be avoiding is your unclear communications around your purpose. Because like I said, we all have a purpose that we're standing for within our business. And then that obviously comes through your branding. Make sure you're clear in what you stand for. Because that's a great way that people are connecting with you. And then there's that nowhere to be seen in real life. So people aren't sharing that. Like I said, there's a fine line of sharing your personal part. People do want to know you're real, that you do go out and do certain things. So share a slice of that. But be mindful not to go overboard. Sometimes people lose control of their own brand. They may be posting stuff. And then it just doesn't marry up. I tell clients, you should really have like a whole branding document that tells people, even if it's within your own organisation, that know exactly what to post, how to post it, what colours to use, what fonts to use, what voice they're using so that it is consistent. Because when you lose control of that, people start to wonder who you are. And again, it's your story. Make sure you stay on that path. Obviously, we're going to change our path slightly. But if you're going from one extreme to the other, then that becomes a little bit more, who are you and what are you standing for? Because I don't know anymore. So that's important as well. So yeah, so creating that brand identity will help your business grow. Retain your customers because they do become loyal. And it will also motivate your own employees internally as well. So you take your employees on your journey. I see too many small organisations sometimes where the owner is so into themselves that they forget that they've got employees and they just go off and do their own thing and the employees don't know what they're on about. So they get left behind. And then you get that disfigurement within the brand because they're thinking one thing, but the owner has gone off and done something completely different. So it's important to stay on track with that and share and take them with you. And you could also use that in a smaller or a different scale, maybe a bigger scale, I don't know. But in a big company, for example, you've got departmental leaders, you've got heads of, you've got general managers and heads and managers and senior managers and whatever. But you are not, without having to be the business owner, you still run a big team of people. Could be a big team, could be a small team, but then being able to focus on the brand or the values that your team is going to stand for, which would also ideally then align with the business at large. But you've got your whole company's corporate values, but then what is my team going to accept as our working standards? What's gonna be acceptable? What's not acceptable? Talk about behaviors and things too, but just in terms of the output of your team's work, as a leader, part of your job would be to say, this is what's expected and this is different to that other team for whatever reason. Yep, absolutely. And there's something that one of my coaches told me probably 12 months ago and he said to me, what's your mission and your vision for the business? And then what's your mission and your vision for your personal life? I said, what does my personal life got to do with that? Like, I don't know what you're talking about. Why are you asking me about that? And what he said is because what you have as your personal mission and vision will drive your business and vice versa. And I thought, you know what? That's probably a great point because, and this may not be something you end up sharing with your employees as such because it's your personal vision and mission, but it does drive the business. So for instance, my personal mission at the moment or vision is to take the family to Europe in 2020. There, I'll put it out there. Now I have to do it, right? So obviously that means I need to generate enough sales. I need to do enough business to be have, you know, to set myself to a certain level where I'm able to do that and comfortably and have a team of people that I can leave behind who are able to continually running my business whilst I'm away. So although I may not share that entire mission with my employees, I think if you built, you know, that, okay, by a certain time we need to do X, Y, Z, but we're going to do it this way and it becomes still a business vision, but it's still underlyingly driving your personal vision. That's right. It's connected with your personal goals. Yes, so, you know, and I guess when you're talking with the SMEs, that very much becomes a play in your business in the way that you do things. So there's probably a little bit off topic of the branding, not necessarily because goals will have to be an integral part of a brand and can't have one without the other really. I've also heard stories where consultants have been called into go to a big business of some description and to help them work on the corporate brand and they end up working on the personal brand of the leaders, the business leaders. Yes, well, it comes from top down most of the time, right? So if the guys at the top aren't clear on what their personal branding, which then reflects with the business branding, it kind of just falls apart. So how do you expect someone that's working beneath and I don't like saying beneath because I don't like that sort of structure, but people that are working with you, how are they supposed to know what to do and say and how and if you don't share that? Yeah, absolutely. And you're not clear on that. So, you know, that whole mindset starts to come in to play there as well. So yeah. And when you define a brand as something that people say about you when you're not in the room, you think about what do the employees say about the boss when the boss isn't in the room, that's going to be a big part of the company's brand. Absolutely, yeah. And that's a whole part of that culture stuff we spoke about earlier as well. So that's important. So I want to just touch a little bit on the tall Poppy syndrome. So are you broadcasting on how great you feel that you actually are? And we've spoken a little bit about the tall Poppy syndrome earlier today, but for me, I think in Australia, there's this massive thing that when someone's doing really well, we want to chop them down. It's not always okay. So I've come across people that want to build people up as well, but I think it's the way we do it and the deliverance that you have with the way you may be doing really awesome. And how much is too much? How much are you going to share of that? It's great that, yeah, you've gone on a great holiday or you bought this really great sports car or whatever it is, that's awesome, but let's not post every other day about that. So I think that's maybe why there's a little bit of that cutting you down syndrome, I suppose, around that. So just, yeah, I don't know, be mindful of that. Do you think there might be just something in the Australian way of life and we value being laid back, we value mateship, we value sort of being on the same page? Do you think that might have a bit of an impact on the way we view somebody who might be posting every day about something, like, okay, we'll stop rubbing it in our face, we get the picture? Yeah, look, yeah, we are about mateship, I think, but it's about just that. It's like, don't rub it in someone's face. Like, it's great and I'm always happy. I mean, I'm always happy for people. I know who have bought their dream cars or houses or whatever it may be. I think that's awesome. And it kind of gives me a bit of a drive to do more so that I can be able to do the same thing. Unfortunately, not everyone has that thought. And maybe it's them, not that person, you know. Maybe. But there's, I think there's a level of how much is too much, like we said, it's how much do you actually share? Well, if I can't have it, you shouldn't have it either. Yeah, well, that's not fair, is it? Especially if someone's going hard to get it. Well, yeah, they deserve it, don't they? So why shouldn't they talk about it? They should be proud. Absolutely. You know, and I think there's a lot of people out there that have a lot and don't say a lot because of that very reason. Yep. And I think that's a little bit sad that we have to live in a world where we're not able to proudly say, I've got XYZ, yeah. I remember about four years ago, there was a sports star in Australia who decided it was his dream to go play in America. And so he was pretty much at the pinnacle of the game here. And then he went to play and was a completely different sport. So it's not even like he went to, went from like the A-League to the MLS or something like that. He went from one sport to another, completely different. And it wasn't even like, you know, 15 or 16. He was a proper, I think, 24, 25 at the time. No, he might have been 26, 28 anyway. But at the peak of his physical powers and in terms of gaming experience and everything, he chooses a completely different sport. And one of the things he kept on saying about the difference between the Australian environment about sport and the American professional sports environment was precisely this, the tall poppy syndrome, where in Australia, for some reason, we don't like it when somebody stands and the child is above everybody else, unless they're like a clear legend of the game or something like that. And he's talking about things like celebrating something good that you do on the field. So you score a goal, you score a try, or something good happens in Australia. It's sort of like, oh, everybody group hug and that kind of thing and show a bit of passion. But then over in the States, he said one of the biggest cultural differences he felt was that people would go all out. You score something, you score a hoop in basketball, you get a three-pointer or you get a touchdown, whatever it is, and they will go overboard with their celebration and it's outlandish and it's like, it's... Really out there. It's wonderful to watch. It's an entertainment piece in itself. And he said that we would never do that back home. But then when you sort of keep low-key about it in the States, they're like, why aren't you celebrating your success? Yeah, it's like you can't win either way. It's like you do one and you get cut down and you do the other and it's like, why don't you? So where's that middle ground? Perhaps there's also a cultural thing about it too. Maybe... I think so. We're not maybe as success-driven as maybe the Americans might be and that's a very big generalisation, of course, I realise. Yeah. Just in terms of a culture, I don't know that we value... We don't have necessarily what's an equivalent to the American dream that everybody talks about in the vernacular. Yeah. It's funny when you're talking about the sport aspect, I'm a bit of a soccer fan. Are you? And so... Sorry, mate. Okay. Do you follow a particular team? We won't go there now. But so we're actually members and we'll go watch the game. And so up until probably five years ago, the games were very flat. Yes. And I'll say the Wanderers have come out and they've been in the media for all sorts of things. So their brand's been lifted and chopped and all sorts of things. But the atmosphere and the camaraderie that happens at those games is just unbelievable. And you know, we've taken friends who don't normally go to matches. And they've just come out and gone, wow. Because just the atmosphere aspect of it, you know. And I think that has a big drive on the players and it's just... It's different. Well, all of that, I think, really points to a club or a team or an organisation that's really doing branding right. Because how often do you see a professional sport win the title in its first season? Again, this isn't a sports programme, so we're not going to go into details. But to achieve a whole lot of success in a short time as an organisation, you have to get the branding side of it right to get a spot on. Yeah, and I mean, I can't even pinpoint what exactly it was, but it was about whatever it is that they did, it really brought in a huge crowd and which kept that atmosphere. And people go for that atmosphere, you know. And then there's obviously, you know, the underdog story and all that that comes into play, but yeah. Yep, yep. Now, the supporters group there is called the RBB, the red and black block. And that's the term we use here at Redback. It's the Redback Boys. Ah, there you go. Right, so if you ever bring up our support team and ask for the RBB, that's us. I'll get you guys, awesome. So that's pretty much the wrap of that. But I mean, I'm happy to take on some more questions if there's any questions that have come through. That's right. So if you've got a question, Melita would like to answer any of your questions coming through. You can click the dark blue button to ask a question and get it submitted there. In the meantime, don't forget to go to that link on your screen right now, canlandlee.com slash Melita to book your free 30 minute brand consultation with Melita. So if you do, if you do have a question about anything we've brought up today or if you've got a question of your own and you want to get Melita's thoughts, it's that dark blue ask a question button to get your questions in. If we do run out of time, of course, we'll be sure to get back to you. And don't forget about that link there. I've got a few comments coming through. Oh, sorry, that's actually an audience message saying exactly what we said. Please provide us with your feedback by clicking on the link above and submit your questions to our presenters using the dark blue ask a question located in the video player. At the moment, there's nothing that seems to be coming through. I think we might have addressed them as we went through the program today. But everybody, before you go, don't forget to click on that link again, canlandlee.com forward slash Melita. It's like the word calendar, but with an L-Y at the end, not an A-R. N-V-I-S-Solutions is the company making competitors green with N-V. So if there aren't any other questions at the moment, Melita, that does bring us to the end of the program today. Thank you so much for all your insights. Well, thanks for having me. And I hope I added some sort of at least mind boggling thoughts for you guys out there and, you know, something to think about at least. Lots of food for thought, I'd say. I hope so. Yeah, pleasure having you on the show. Melita Vouchich from N-V-I-S-Solutions. If you'd like to send us your comments about today's show, you can click the Provide Feedback button, that's the yellow one, to give us your thoughts. We'd love to hear from you. And if you're thinking of running your own webinars, click the light blue download resources button and grab a copy of the 2018 Redback Report and the webinar organizer handbook. Today's program will be made available for viewing on demand and will be in touch with you with all of those details. Thanks for joining us across this great country of ours today. We'll catch you next month on another Redback Business Skills webinar. And until then, goodbye for now.