 Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host Alex DeCarris. Now, today, I know is going to be a tough show for a lot of people. Because even if I tell you that during the more than six years, I've known returning guest, Mary Rodwell, that I've always found her to be among the most forthright, open, honest researchers in the UFO and ET non-human intelligence contact kind of field, that's not going to amount to much. And even if I told you, which I will, that Mary has always been among the first people to look for a scientific understanding of what she does, for academic verification of what she does, and that that's why she collaborated with the folks from the free group to compile the first academic survey of contact experience. And even if I told you that she's world-renowned and recognized as an expert in this field and that she's authored books like the one you can see on the screen, the new human awakening to our cosmic heritage, I can tell you all that stuff. And in a lot of ways, it just isn't going to matter. Because unfortunately, the result of Mary's research, the inevitable conclusion that she's come to, is really going to shake you to your core. It shakes me to my core still. And I've had all this time to marinate in it and talk with her and interview her multiple times and debate with David Jacobs and all the rest of it that we've done. It's just hard stuff to take. But if anything, that's what gives me even more respect for this woman and this amazing researcher who has stuck by her guns, stuck by her methodology, and year after year has just compiled more and more evidence of this rather remarkable, astonishing story that we are really part of a cosmic heritage and part of a genetic engineering, ongoing genetic engineering project that we're really not in control of. So Mary, it is so great to talk to you again and welcome you back. And thanks for joining me. Alex, it's always a pleasure. What can I say? And thank you for the intro. You're already preparing people to have their paradigm just slightly shaken and stirred. Well, you know, it's funny because I posted before this interview a list of, you know, a post that said, hey, I have any upcoming questions for Mary Rodwell. And I was surprised because the skeptical audience is really on on it, you know, we cover all the topics related to consciousness, extended consciousness, NDEs, contact modalities, ET, the whole thing, they're on it. There's still all this resistance. And I get it. I understand it. And I don't need to defend you. Your work stands on its own. But I just kept saying to folks, I don't get it, you know, I tell you every way I look at her work, I cannot poke holes in her work. Her results are extraordinary, but her methodology and the person she is just shines through. So I'm just going to wind up saying the same thing. But people can go watch your presentations. And the only hard thing about it is just that the matter of fact way that you deliver the goods, you just stand up there and say, This is it. This is what I found. Well, at the end of the day, if you're not authentic, quite honestly, Alex, people soon see through you and you've obviously got a wonderful audience that has a very healthy left brain. And for me, that's really important because so have I. I haven't come from being a nurse and a midwife to being a counselor for 35 years working in the field, both of health and psychology. I know how mainstream works. And I also have that side of me that wants to see the evidence, because too many people are quite keen to just believe because it sounds good. Well, much as it sounds good, you've got to have the data that backs up your hypothesis as much as you can do, given the fact, as you well know, with free and what we've discovered is that the 25% of the contact with non human intelligences is generally the physical 75% is non physical out of body. Now, where do you go with that? Because we're still struggling to understand what consciousness is that we actually have a part of ourselves that is the essence of who we are that operates within this biological body, that seems to have the ability to leave it in our dreams and some do it consciously and go to other realms that much we're understanding near death experiences. There's hundreds of books out there now showing that we do exist outside our body. So I mean, how much evidence do you really want that this is possible? The bottom line for me and people say to me, you know, where is the evidence that people are having these interactions? Where is the evidence that, you know, they don't come back with a piece of the craft, you know, that have come back with, you know, anything that they feel is tangible. But what is tangible and what we do know is that if you've had a real experience, it affects you on every level, both emotionally and psychologically and spiritually. And time and time again, we have found with our research with free. Remember, that was 4,200 people, conscious recall saying that 85% of those people had psychospiritual transformation. And what we mean by that is everything in their life, they've reappraised, the way they live is changed, their spiritual orientation has changed, that, you know, even what they eat has changed, they're more holistic in their understanding, they feel more connected to the greater reality, they, you know, don't want to harm anything, they care about the planet, all these things may be a major shift from their materialistic lives prior to this, where they suddenly lose complete interest in making money and getting the bigger house and the yacht in the back garden and say I want to live a more holistic life on a piece of land where I'm growing my own food, where I care about the animals, all this kind of thing. Now, that doesn't happen because they've had hallucination. But what also goes with that, and I'm putting together a particular presentation because I'm going to Brazil in a month's time. And it's called triggers of consciousness. And what it's showing is the other things that accompany their changes. Suddenly, out of the blue, they may start to do strange artwork. They may start to find themselves doing codes or scripts. They may find themselves coming out with these strange languages, for example. And it's amazing the numbers of people that have never picked up a paintbrush suddenly find that because of their experiences, they're triggered into bringing in this artwork that they say almost materializes in front of them. They have no input in it. This is the kind of thing I'm seeing. So where is the evidence? The evidence is it changes people in dramatic ways from this experience. That in itself is evidence of a reality. So, you know, you can't dismiss that. Well, you know what I love about what you just did, and I think a lot of people listening to this show will be able to appreciate it, is you reveal there the scientific mind that you always have applied to this. And I think that's why you were such a natural fit with Free, who just said, Hey, let's buckle down and do an academic research survey like is done in every other field. Like if somebody has pain in the hospital, and you want to find out, you know, you just go ask a bunch of people, that's how you do it. It's a scientific medical survey. And you were just such a natural fit because you think in those lines. And I think if we deconstruct it, and we don't want to take all the time to do that, what you said, that's what we would find, you know, you're saying, Okay, what is a factor that we could really rely on? What evidence could we would be most, you know, all these things that you start stacking up? Okay, well, we look at changes over time and people's personalities because we know that personalities are relatively fixed in the ways that we studied them and understood them. You're a counselor, you've been accredited within the UK in their system, they said, Yes, this person is qualified there in Australia, you've done the same. So one of the points I wanted to raise and draw people's attention to because they might not know or appreciate it is exactly this. So I know it's going a couple steps back from all the amazing stuff that you've done. But I do feel a need to remind people that you are someone who is professionally minded, academic minded, you're always thinking of those standards. And that the other couple things I just wanted to touch on and then I want you to talk more about your methodology because you have some specific things that you've done. When you work with people that I think makes your results more reliable and more trustworthy. But the second point I wanted to make is you are among a number of researchers who have found the same thing. So, you know, some of these things that you're talking about lately with the art and music advanced skills are truly things that you've kind of broken some ground on. But even in those areas, we can find other researchers that are kind of finding the same thing. So one of the things that I think people naturally do, they go, Oh, this is crazy. Mary Rodwell, excuse me. Well, she is one of a number of researchers who have different opinions, but who among those among those different opinions, we see a lot of commonality in their things. And then the last point I hope you touch on, because it is still to this day, a hot button issue with people is hypnosis and regression. People immediately freak out and go, Oh my God, forget it. Forget everything. It's like, that's not how it works, folks. I mean, there's still a lot of countries other than the United States that allow professionally done hypnotic regression to be allowed into court and under circumstances to be testimony. And it used to be that way in the United States, and it's still used for different purposes. So the whole idea that people have these kind of triggers like that doesn't really add up to the true science if you look to it. So Mary, speak to the issue of methodology and why that's important to you and some of the things you've done to make sure that what you're finding really does stack up. A very good question. The methodology really was similar to what free did. And remember we had Dr. Clemo, professor of psychology for 40 years, Dr. Bob Davis, a neuroscientist, for example, and many other credible researchers in the field, all putting in their input to the questions, 600 questions, asked in multiple ways to make sure we had a clarity on what people were saying about their experiences. And this was all deliberately conscious recall. We haven't even gone into hypnosis at this point. We haven't gone into even the paranormal. What do you consciously remember about you? But you have gone into and I want people to know that, you know, so the free backs up winds up support the free academic survey winds up backing up and supporting the work that you've done for years and years. And I just want people to know that that research when you talk about when we get into this and you start talking about cases, and you are going to blow people away with these cases, and with these kids. And I want what I want them to know is that you are a careful researcher in the way you go about collecting this data. And you always have been. And when I did the the interview back and forth that I would love for people to go back and listen to because it really was so amazing to me. But with David Jacobs, who is a PhD social science and considers his standards to be very, he's very proud of his standards. You are right there point on point in terms of how you did it and more than held your own. So I want to remind people of that that even before the free study, you've always been about methodology about science. It's been extremely important because when I wrote the book Awakening as a therapeutic resource book for people who had nowhere to go, no one to talk to or didn't feel safe to. This was a process that will help you through your experiences going on, all the patterns of experience that many hundreds of people were telling me the questions they came up with. How do I know this is real? How do I know I'm not crazy? What do I do about the fear? What about my children? And because I am a therapist, you know, I've been a counselor for 35 years. Okay, so this is a it's still a human experience. What do you do with trauma? What do you do with validating how it's affecting people? What strategies can you use? So the book was written as a therapist. And I did a whole chapter for the therapist saying, if you want to know my methodology, this is where it's based on, you know, primary counseling from, you know, my training. So it's all going back to honoring the experience, honoring the person's wisdom and their understanding. It's not about me interpreting, it's about giving them the way to interpret it, however they choose to from their particular lens of reality or whatever it is. But my bottom line was the whole time that anyone can pick that book up and say that that there was nothing that contradicts normal therapeutic approach. And in fun in interesting enough, only recently, a hypnotherapist in Germany is translating it into German and the awakening and said, every psychologist in the world should read this was what her what she said to me. Now there's there's the qualification. What I said was how it can transform your life because that's exactly what I was seeing. Yes, I saw trauma. Yes, I saw many initially being terrified. But what I also saw was the more that they looked into it, the more they started to understand what was going on, the more that that changed into a whole new understanding of what that meant for them. And it ended up being for many of them a completely transformative experience. I mean, I call the the UFO experience the modern day shamanic wake up call. Because as the shaman, you have to transcend your fears to operate in a multi dimensional world. And this is exactly what I see happening through the this contact experiences you go through the fear to another level of awareness. If you transcend it, but my getting back to my methodology, it always came from my baseline of my counseling practice. So having done that and of course, that's what happened with free was they qualified all the patterns that I was seeing. Because for me, that was the reality. If you sit if you hear time and time again, the same things from people from all over the globe, all cultures or belief systems or professions from children of six and seven years old to 70 or 80 years old, then you've got to say, hold on a minute, are they all hallucinating? Or are they actually experiencing something? And you know, come on, you know, where does skepticism get to a point where hold on a minute, you know what, this is a little bit too much like this is real. And so for me that came in not knowing for sure about anything I came in with an open mind, I always say, you know, the open mindedness doesn't equate to gullibility. It means you're open to what you don't know. And I don't know what I don't know. So the only way to find out is to get enough testimony from credible people. And I'm talking about people who had PhDs, lawyers, doctors, nurses, social workers, you know, farmers, housewives and children of seven or eight years old, that are describing to me similar patterns of experience. And children, of course, don't watch talk shows. They don't, you know, they don't read books. And they're coming out with complex concepts. And you've got to say, now hold on a minute, where did these come from? And they're saying, well, we learned them on the craft. You know, this is what we're being taught. This is where we're being taken. This is where we're shown to do things, drawing exactly the same types of beings, adults draw and explaining the same things only in more childish language. Often there's not. So my methodology was simple. I gathered as much data as I could. And I looked at the data and I saw where all the patterns were. And then in the end, it's like it speaks for itself. And that for me is the validity of this. Hundreds of thousands now, you know, I talk about three, three and a half thousand families and children globally, I get emails from all over the world, telling me the same things that I'm getting from the English speaking world. So that is the number of people you've worked with, right? Yes, yes. So I mean, take that in folks. This is one person. And her research base at this point is a counselor trained counselor research basis, 3,000 3,500 people have had that contact experience. I mean, come on. So I tell you what, Mary, we I kind of have been putting together this little board game skeptical jeopardy and I have my we already talked about methodology for the folks who are just hearing this and aren't seeing it. Let me go through the other categories. New human, which is the title of your most recent book, a couple of years old now, but still one we should talk about. And I want to go there next. But I also have some other topics, tech versus spiritual, a really interesting topic to me in terms of understanding the relationship between consciousness, technology and spirituality. And if there is a line there, or how blurred that line is star children, which again blows people away, but we just have to follow the data and consider the possibility that there are these children that are especially being seated in some way that is beyond belief. You've dug into the DNA research, I want to say, or you've sought scientific understanding to support some of your findings in a very open way. And I think that's awesome. I want to talk about Stranger Things, the Netflix show and both good and bad of that, I think. I have a couple of other pet topics of mine beyond the main book, but you know, how far advanced is some of this technology, consciousness and ET related, non human intelligence related, good versus evil ET. I got to bring that up. Richard Dolan has been all over there and talking about it. And I just think there's something interesting going on there that needs to be talked about. And I want to leave plenty of time to talk about the cases because the cases just are stunning and they're going to blow people away. So I'm going to pick the next one because I want to go to New Human. And after that, I want you to direct us and we'll just go as far as we can. So tell us then about the book, The New Human and the cosmic heritage is the term you used. I had a couple other bullet points I know you'll hit on is the upgrade. And then the one question I'd have related to that is to what extent is do you think this is a recent now kind of thing versus is it does it fit in the longer lens of an ongoing process? So start wherever you'd like with the book, The New Human. Well, the reason I wrote The New Human was once I'd come to terms with the reality and how I can help those waking up to their experiences and finding a way through understanding and integrating it in a way that was helpful to them. I then began to see a pattern of what I believed was an upgrading of the genetic line. So it was intergenerational. That's been well known that it goes through family lines so that if your father or your grandfather has had experiences it will come through to the grandchildren or whether it's the maternal side of it, it will come through those lines. And I just interject one thing because you say that very matter of factly and you should but what I want people to know is that this is something that evidentially is backed up by multiple researchers over and over again. Just statistically you're much more likely to be in this family line of having contact than not. So I just want people to know you're not just kind of saying that off hand again you've had 3,000 cases of your own but there's other people that have had thousands and thousands of cases and overwhelmingly this is statistically just the way the data falls. Absolutely. If I ask someone who's had experiences has your mother or your father or grandparents ever said anything unusual or was a bit different in terms of more psychic or whatever often they'll say you know granddad was always into UFOs or whatever or grandma was a bit fey you know she always had she saw things and whatever then I think there you go there's your family line and it may be the paternal side it doesn't matter but that is what I was fascinated by because it tied into what I understand about the DNA because the bottom line here of course is why I'm talking about connecting to a cosmic heritage is that the research that I've done and the whistleblowers I've talked to molecular biologist geneticists that have seen within our DNA the fact that we've been altered and changed because the whole thing is if that's the case first of all it explains why they're so interested in us and secondly it explains what I'm seeing as the what I call the upgrades of human coming down the family lines because what I was seeing was if granddad or grandma had experiences then you had the parent having things happen usually a little bit more aware and then you've got the child that's quite comfortable with talking about yes I go up on spacecraft they show me how to use my abilities etc etc the thing that really was to me a light bulb moment was the whole thing was where is the evidence in a mainstream way of understanding it metaphysically you've got those that talk about the indigo children the crystal children children of light noticing children with different awareness for want of a better word but I wanted something that was to me more mainstream tangible and what I was seeing was that we were getting more and more children born with such things as ADHD aspergers dyslexia and some forms of autism and these were often born to people having experiences and I'm thinking now hold on a minute if this is supposed to be an upgrade why do they appear to be dysfunctional unless they're not dysfunctional we are and the reason I say that is one light bulb moment was when I was talking to Neil Gold in Hong Kong who told me he was in his 50s before he realized that he was ADHD he said I always saw a matrix a complexity of reality that nobody else seemed to see and he wrote a book close encounters of the ADHD kind and he said and so what he was saying was that I didn't know why I saw things differently and why behave differently and he's actually retranslated ADHD into always dialed into higher dimensions there's your clue what I was seeing was why are people who are having experiences ending up having children with so-called dysfunctions unless they're not dysfunctions and another scientist that has helped me with understanding this is Dr. Lena Olson who's a molecular biologist in Sweden she calls them letter people part aspergers part autistic a little bit of ADHD and she said I am one I am one of these letter people and she's had lots of it multi-dimensional experiences but she noticed through scientifically testing she's got a higher sensitivity in her senses both touch hearing is it she can hear a broader level of sound her eyes can see a broader spectrum of light everything is more sensitive and she's tested this within herself as she's a scientist and she said and this is what is happening with the children they are having these higher senses the problem we are seeing is they don't operate so well in what we term our 3d reality because we don't understand this sensitivity the fact that why are they so sensitive well because they're an upgrade right and you know I just want to jump in there I do I'm with you I think you're breaking some important ground there I don't see a one-to-one connection it's it's not complete it's like hey there's a link between vaccines especially the untested multiple vaccines that are given in autism so this doesn't take away from that and it doesn't take away from that there that every person who has aspergers is a star seed child what I think you're raising is just the the sound of the alarm to hey do we need to potentially understand this differently when we start opening up to I like how you say multiple multiple dimensions extended consciousness thing and the other thing that you've thrown on the table and and please go back to what you're what you were talking about before because I don't want to totally take you off that point but you another thing that you said that I think it's really kind of uh when we get to that I'm sorry here that that that really struck me and stayed with me is the idea that if you look at the counter hypothesis a little bit so if you take an accept that we're in disclosure mode I mean I still have to repeat that every freaking show I think it's like folks it was in the New York Times it was on Fox News it was on CBS News the Department of Defense has said it's okay to say we have videos of UFOs and if you think there's UFOs and you're someone else people say I believe in UFOs but I don't believe in et then I don't know where you're coming from with that but you can go have your own private conversation so that is part of the disclosure thing and then all these things are on the table so you take all the stuff you've talked about and now the way I put it is the burden of proof shifts it shifts to all the people who don't like these ideas to say well but you got acknowledged et is there it's done so now you prove that it isn't there and here's the little tidbit that I wanted you to talk about because it just it was a drop the mic moment for me when you said perhaps the reason why this is so pressing and so such an important time is that we have reached the point in our medical and biological technology where genetic engineering is a reality to us and we will discover the extent to which our genetics have been engineered it is inevitable it wasn't before but in the last 10 20 30 years it's now and some of the stuff that you throw out you know Francis Crick and the rest of this if people have speculated it and now we can go in and we can do the CRISPR gene slicing and we can look at China and say no no no don't do what you just did we are there so anyone who is also part a non-human intelligence who's part of this genetic engineering is going to go okay the gig's up they're going to understand at least to a certain extent what we're doing so we got a kind of shift strategies or something along those lines do you want to comment on that at all I mean I think it's really important for people to get the baseline of why I have this hypothesis and it's because as a former nurse and midwife I want that the DNA is the is the key to why they're interested in us in the first place and that is because we know anyway that we went from Cro Magnon and Neanderthal and there was the missing link and all of a sudden Homo sapiens sapiens appeared with twice the brain size 223 genes that were a sideways insertion of genetic material nobody can explain and it interestingly I met a scientist geneticist when I was in South Australia some years ago who worked with Dr Francis Crick who was co-founder of the DNA molecule and he said Mary those 223 genes do not exist in any other species on this planet just Homo sapiens sapiens and we're talking about twice the brain size all to do with higher psychological functioning right so there's your baseline you get whistleblower geneticists that are saying the evidence of us being spliced is there that we have been engineered so then you get Dr Francis Crick who always said that he believed that we were intelligently designed saying they programmed into our DNA that when we got to a certain level of awareness and I'm putting stroke technology we would then discover who we are people may not know that in one gram of DNA everything that's on the internet right now would fit into that one gram of DNA we have encoded I believe in our DNA everything we need to know and we are discovering that as it gets activated and that's another story about them getting us advancing as a species but the bottom line is that we've we have DNA that nobody can explain in terms of it's called dormant DNA they used to call it junk DNA they have got no clue what it's there for so you've got this whole mystery we've got 95 percent 90 to 95 percent junk DNA what is the junk you know does nature do anything without a reason I don't think so so what is it and because what's happening now and that leads into the whole thing about people starting to feel there from somewhere else and that's a whole new story I can go into why do they because I believe they're being activated and when you say why now well I'll tell you why I think now is because we've reached a certain level of technology and these intelligences which I believe are part of our ancestry or our ancestors are saying hold on a minute our little sibling our little protogy down there again a bit too cheeky you know they're starting to create technology that could destroy them this you know the silly little monkeys you know and we've got to do something about this and that is why I believe there's this big push to upgrade humanity and we're seeing evidence of this even more and more now over the last few generations of children who are exhibiting this multi-dimensional awareness and are coming in with it where they're telling you what planet they're from they're telling you why they've come in what their abilities are and what how they're going to help the planet when you've got this kind of awareness in a six seven eight nine year old child you're having to say well there's certainly an upgrade on the older models like me who's still half asleep um so the bottom line for me is that is what I'm seeing and and the other thing that I want to say to people is why would they create what appears to be dysfunctional children unless there is a reason behind it and then when you look at one of the things we know is the reason many of us deny our multi-dimensional cells deny our psychic abilities our awareness our intuition we all have it why do we do it because we're programmed to not believe in it we're programmed to tell us it's not real psychology says as soon as you start hearing stuff you are on the road to craziness so aren't we this is this is the program this is what mainstream psychology says you can't feel sense energies you can't see spirits you can't feel and sense and no stuff from the future precognition you can't do this because it's not normal our psychology says there's something wrong with you so what needs to happen a different kind of programming well if you are wired differently you're not so easily programmable are you that's what do they do with adhd they stick them full of written in to slow them down so they can be programmed when in fact we should be realizing they're an upgrade of human where that is not relevant programming to them because they are already operating multi-dimensionally and they will tell you so if they feel safe enough with you to tell you there's a whole bunch of topics related to that that you've touched on and we've touched on parapsychology is beginning to look at that in terms of the esp abilities and and and that kind of stuff but i want to leave open the space and time to go to different topics so i did say i would let you pick and i picked up don't know so mary where would you might like to go next on our jeopardy board there oh look um what i i mean i will give you some some of the cases that have been very profound recently because the one thing that's come up and you mentioned dr jacob's for example and okay so if we're changing um and these children are different are they a threat you know are they a threat to humanity people talk about hybrids well some of these people not just the children are mentioning to me they're hybrids um one is a one particular case is a 16 year old Spanish girl who said that when she reached 15 she had this encoded in a dna and as this was encoded it actually became she became aware of it at 15 she was a star kid she was a hybrid she said there are many types of hybrids that um in fact we're all hybrids anyway you know that's that's a rare as far as i'm concerned um but we're talking about different programs of hybrid and some of them um are less aware than others depending on the program that they are i believe adhd is one program i believe those with aspergers are another program those are dyslexic another program people who are very empathic is another program because we're needing um different programs for what's going on in this planet but are they taking over that well we've already taken over the planet because we're we've taken over we hybrids so you know what's what's the big deal what is different though well hold on because i think there is an important question there that a lot of people have and i think it's a very legitimate question because one of the views on this and it's supported by you know i just interviewed i think i'm the last episode as these come out uh dr courtney brown who is famous for remote viewing and has done some rather extensive and i have to say impressive remote viewing projects looking at different kinds of contact experience and one thing that i think that he says that really resonates with me is the multiple agendas and he says you know why is it that we're totally comfortable with the idea that we're going to work with china but we realize that china has a different agenda and then further we realize that there are different groups within china that have a different agenda and there's different groups in america that have a different agenda in australia and that somehow sometimes when we talk about non-human intelligence and et contact we immediately shift into this mode of this total unified agenda that doesn't seem to be the history there seems to be a lot of pretty violent activity in that past of aliens contacting each other and we gotta believe that some of that is still going on and then we have the whole interaction they have with some of our intelligence organizations and intelligence organization so i don't want to go too far afield there but you get what i'm saying i mean multiple multiple agendas multiple multiple visitors visitors with different levels of technology and you you put that into some complex matrix and gosh how how do you sort through all or the one thing that i've tried never to do is interpret because i am fully aware that i'm looking at something that is multi-dimensional multi-complex we're talking not just about physical extraterrestrial beings we're talking about interdimensional intelligences extra dimensional trans dimensional beings from our future and possibly others i don't have a clue about as far as i know so when you're saying there's multiple and complex programs and what for sure there is without question all i can do is when i am talking to individuals having these experiences i'm hearing what they say about themselves and how they understand themselves and what i'm discovering is many of them have awareness they've come from another planet another solar system another dimension you're a 10 year old saying he's come through a portal in the sun you hear them say i was one 10 year old recently said to me i was a will of the wisp a spirit i saw the life that i wanted on this planet and then i found myself in mummy's tummy so that was how he talked about incarnating into the human form i've come here with these this awareness i've come here and this is my job this is my mission coming here he's fully aware of his connection to these intelligences some of them are very physical to him and some of them he just sees maybe his energy or is aware of them as just light or whatever my point is that yes just like we've got many agendas on this planet for different things we've you know these intelligences depending on their level of benevolence i suppose is a good word to put it and how less you know the ones that are less self-serving every single one of them will have their own agenda but we do see a collaboration with a number of those intelligences for certain objectives for example when an the eight year old told me she'd been taken to a planet to learn how to levitate and use her psychic abilities they also showed her how they did different they interpret various species for different planets as they seeded other planets for example as part of one of the bigger genetic agendas both humans both animals both plants all of this was shown to her another lady showed told me that the mantis beings are master geneticists they basically are the ones that oversee most of the genetic programs for example so i don't know whether that's true all i know is if enough people are telling me the same thing about their understanding of particular species then it you know it has veracity because that's all i can go on i don't know what the government knows behind the scenes and it would be nice to know what they're hiding from the rest of us but at the bottom line is for me my data comes from those that come to me and some of this will be conscious recall and some of it may come through hypnosis and i can go into the methodology of hypnosis and why i think it's extremely valuable if you want me to i'd love that but it's it's probably in the interest of time let's i think we hit that i mean anyone at this point who doesn't believe you're legit and that we should it be you're just so open about it i mean that's pound in the desk saying you know you have to believe this or you have to believe that i love the way you're sharing it that topic's covered pick another category from the board there and let's have some fun oh goodness me all right let's look at stranger things that is you know i know the program which has come up and i find it fascinating because i on a number of levels one of the things that i do know and i think it illustrates in that story is that behind the scenes darker projects have been exploring the abilities of humans in terms of particularly children right yes and i'm i'm gonna say something that's going to feel quite dark for some people but the reality is these children many of many of them know about these programs because they've experienced it okay i also i remember this young nine-year-old explaining to me um who know he he knew he was from the planet orion he knew he was a light physicist working on time travel technology he also said mary i've been taken to one of these underground bases and he described in detail how he'd been put in a chair with a woman in a what seemed like a military uniform in front of him he said she had technology to one side of her and what she was doing was trying to lower my frequency so she could take what i knew but also put stuff that she wanted into my consciousness and he said i'm aware of what she was doing and because i kept my frequency higher most of the time she didn't succeed but he said i know there are a lot of kids like me that are being picked up and this is happening to them one of the gentlemen that told me in sydney he'd been part of that program he's now in his you know in his middle years and had the flashbacks saying mary they were teaching us how to use our psychic abilities including how to walk through solid objects was one of the things he explained because they know what we can do and they know that it's a potential for humanity and they want to be ahead of the game this is being done in china china super psychics they are studying these children that can teleport things that can change the very nature of dna it's called china super psychics by paul dong written in the 1980s we've got them in russia there's they are way ahead of us in parapsychology working with children and what they can do already we've got evidence with training children even over a few days how they can see beyond their physical site and it's called extra ocular vision and i know a couple of ladies teaching it to children from six to 12 and one lady caron osbourne came to agnes and there was a few families that learned it and i've got video of a eight or nine-year-old little girl after a few lessons literally coloring with these goggles on so you couldn't see anything she was literally coloring in detail then reading in detail and that was just in a few lessons over a weekend so this is our potential but the children already showing us even in this limited way what they're capable of okay where next uh well we've talked about the star children and uh the hybrids um i want to tell you another a little bit about that because i'm putting together a powerpoint presentation that not only takes human children but it also takes in the parents that are where they've got hybrid children on board craft and i'm actually going into detail because i'm going to brazil and this is a a lady in brazil that contacted me she it was a former um air hostess and she said i couldn't really talk about this to ufologists she said and you're the only one i feel i can talk to she said when i was an air hostess i went in to go to breakfast and she said i saw this little girl standing in the hallway and i thought to myself oh she's lost i wonder where her mother is and as she's thinking this she says this to the little girl the little girl turns around and she realizes although she looks humanoid she's got this strange face and she plainly isn't human she said i was so scared that i ran away thinking she's a monster and went and and promptly tried to forget it from that time she's been up on board craft consciously remembers seeing this little girl who's part human part feline and realizes that's her daughter and in fact she's got several others like this feline child on board craft now there are two things that go with that one is as a child she remembers this tall being that looks feline almost had a mother feeling about her and felt very safe with her then she sees this little girl on board craft but the thing that blew me away was she said i've been on board craft where my human daughter has been there playing with her sibling hybrid so they're actually having an interaction her human daughter now it gets even more more bizarre because recently she said i got in my head that my six-year-old daughter she's got other children my six-year-old daughter is a hybrid and i just kept getting this in my head that my daughter's a hybrid and she said and within a few days later my husband woke me up at four in the morning and out of the blue said you know our daughter's a hybrid don't you she's a mantis and right now you make something of that because this you can imagine that she had it confirmed she's my daughter does have six toes on one foot she said but she's she is human looking but she's remembering that she's had these missing pregnancies where she's been aware that she's been pregnant for a short time and then there's no pregnancy and this is such a common thing with people who are having encounters and i wrote a whole chapter on missing pregnancies in Awakening where they felt pregnant for a month maybe sometimes two then all of a sudden they feel this grief and this loss and there's no pregnancy but they may afterwards be taken up on board craft and introduced to their hybrid children where they'll feel this sense of love and connection and part of that they are understanding is that these hybrids need human love as well as part for their health if you like this is so common Alex this is not the odd one here and there i'm giving you a a more extreme case but this is something that is being experienced by many hundreds of women that i've spoken to and of course they they've even had women that have been told they can't have human children they've gone to the doctor and the doctors said to them and they've never had a you know they've never had a pregnancy they you know they a lot of them have never had any intimacy and the doctor said to them with the scars he's seen is how many children have you had and they've not had any children at all well this is kind of a great point to pause for a second because you know i i let off this interview by saying it's just gonna be really challenging for people and we dipped out our way in but now people are going to know what i mean what do you do with these accounts if you're listening to this what do you do with this person who's in front of you mary rob but we just told you her methodology we've told you how she's sought out she's been the one to seek out science seek out academic understanding of what she's just encountered just in her work and yet this is just so so hard to take and let me pick a category here because i do appreciate that this is hard on a number of levels for the average person but what always kind of surprises me is when people with inside the ufo community seem to really really struggle with this topic and i think richard dolin is fantastic and i haven't had a chance to have him on the show and i'd like to at some point and his wife tracy seems like a delightful person as well again i have not met either one of them tracy dolin has had numerous contact experiences and she associates them with abduction experiences very negative experiences so that's okay that's her experience and there are you know it's not all it's not all rainbows and unicorns and in happiness there are a number of people out there that hold to the fact that their experience has been an abduction in every sense of the word and i've referenced in this talk mary that we had a series of conversations with david jackups who was kind of famously along with bud hopkins really kind of staked out that ground through research that we have to accept i accept that they did in a genuine way and they collected data and their data was hey these are abductions now what impresses me about what your work does but i want to i want to set the table for people and then i want you to deconstruct this because what i hear and i think people will hear from this interview is you seem to be open to all of that you seem to be open to all the different things that can happen my lab stuff yeah people are running into the government they're doing all sorts of nasty nasty thing stranger things with kids and they don't care and you know whitley streber yeah lock them in a skinner cage and you know break them up they don't care they're out they're doing their thing like intelligence agencies do so are there other bad aliens evil aliens i don't think you've ever said that that isn't out there as well so we want to talk about that the good versus the bad but i also want to kind of put the hammer down a little bit on the richard dolin it just really surprised me when i watched this video and it's a very popular video on youtube and he kind of said well maybe it's kind of an east coast west coast thing you know i'm from new york and we kind of see the tougher et's and you know these other folks some of these other people are from the west coast like barbara lamb you know and they see the love and light it's like i tell them where are you coming from well everyone seems to be just be following the data it's not like some east coast west coast blood crypts you know it's it's just it's just data and and we gotta somehow get our arms around the data without in one way or another being so quick to kind of brush it aside or explain it away and that's what i see happening so often among people in the ufo community so two points to address one is i don't think tracy dolin is making it up she's had traumatic experiences that would be traumatic to anyone and she's pissed off and she has a right to be pissed off you know that's point number one but point number two is the ufo community in general just can't deal with et non-human intelligence contact it seems to me it's a good one and it is an important one and you're quite right i have never made a category statement ever that they're either all good or all bad because that's not what i'm getting i can only go on the data and i have got no right to make any assumptions about anything other than the person and their experience and that is what i focus on all along i suspect there are some many benevolent ones and there's also very likely self-serving but first of all as you know this is very complex what people need to know is what i discovered is some of the most most traumatized were those that had my lab and what we're talking about here is the military orchestrated pseudo et abductions they like to make many of them appear to be et and the reason i'm saying that is because i mean and we know that dr striden greer has said you know a high majority of abductions trauma ones are human orchestrated abductions and there is a lot of evidence out there now nyara isley with her her book facing the shadow embracing the light i did the forward for that she explained her my lab experiences when she was in the military etc etc there are many hundreds of others misha johnson in in las vegas she's another one that's had my lab and what is that that is when the military want to know what's going on they make sure they pick up people they know have had experiences because they want to know what the ets are doing what happens on the craft what kind of things what kind of data what's their motivation they want to make sure there informed as possible just like i do if someone's had an experience what's been going on they're doing the same thing they're interrogating they're drugging they're traumatizing they know for well that most people won't believe it's human orchestrated they know that what people also may not know is programmed life forms we do know from a lot of the research coming out from whistleblowers that they have generated programmed life forms that look et they're not et they're programmed by the military there's it there's grays that are programmed there are reptilians that are programmed and i've discovered recently that some of the mantis ones i mean one lady that i worked with was taken underground and she was shown this huge terrifying picture of a mantis and she kept being told they are evil they are evil they are evil this was during a regression okay so there's you can believe that or not but so we do know there's a program to make those that are picked up that way terrified of non-human intelligences so that is part of the problem is what is human orchestrated what is trauma via non-human intelligences and that can sometimes be very blurred because of how people are treated when someone comes to me though that's had experiences they may be traumatized but what they may be fearful of isn't necessarily what happened they may just be fearful because they didn't know what happened and they anticipated something terrible happened to them so why hypnosis is so useful is that gives them a window into understanding what actually happened rather than what they believed happened because it you know it's so out of their paradigm what i've discovered for a majority of those is once they've discovered the reality of their experience it may not be anything like they imagined many we had the statistics that said 50 of those surveyed had healing experiences on boardcraft so i've taken many of my clients they've seen themselves on a table they've seen genetic material taken and they've also been told this is healing for x y and z and we know they've been you know people have been cured of all sorts of things so then is where's the consent and because they're in an altered state and because they're tapping into their subconscious super conscious there is an awful lot of information available to them that's not when they're conscious so i'm saying to them so is this part of what you would see your consented mandate and they have often most often said yes it's my contract with them because they said i'm one of them because some will realize that the beings they're interacting with they may have actually in a previous existence actually been one of the beings that they're interacting with now now they come out of it they may be completely confused they may find it all really too hard to cope with and they'll say what do you think i said it's not what i think does that resonate with you on some level and they usually say yes it does well now i said it's up to you it's up to you to take that information decide whether it makes sense to you and the other thing that i say to them when they say oh i've been told the grades are bad or i've been told this i'm saying forget what you've been told that's their experience what do you feel from this intelligence what is the sense you get and it can be completely different so some have i'm terrified i don't like this one i think they're bad that's their experience it's it's valid as much as the one that says well i think they've got a sense of humor or whatever but remember what people don't know is that the graze in this lump graze i was told by one lady that that she knew of 165 species of gray so do you lump them all together it's like taking one human being off the planet and saying that's all humans what a load of nonsense so there's so much we don't know but we can only go on our own experience and our own understanding of that particular it's how we choose to interpret it is up to that person it's not up to me you or anyone else it's their experience and only they can decide how to interpret it okay so you've been super generous with your time and you just deliver the goods it's so awesome talking to you every topic you're just gonna nail it there's one more topic i'm gonna pick this one because it's one of the last ones we haven't talked to and then i'll let you get on with the rest of your day this is a topic that keeps coming up for me and i keep bringing it up to people and i'm never quite satisfied with the answer and that is the relationship that i keep bumping into between the technological advances in consciousness the relationship between consciousness and technology versus true spirituality i hate to put that in those terms but i'll give you an idea of what i'm talking about clearly non-human intelligence contact experiences suggest a technology to consciousness that they if you will allow that have mastered in a way that we have so whether it's telepathic communication screened memories projected memories good or bad these are all things that come up again and again and come up in a technology way and in the sense that we can do that we have an iphone app to do that i jump over to the other side and i look at the near-death experience science and i look at what yogis say about the spirituality of the larger whole and the message is different the message isn't motivated towards fixing the planet as important as that might be they say things like world what world they say in this world but not of this world they say find the ocean of love and jump into it find the godhead and these are from all these different traditions and these are from people of and the experiences who come back and do care about other people and care about the planet but not in a way that want to fix the planet in a way that just says well you know i had a life review and none of this stuff is really that important all just kind of in the middle ground so i'm not asking you to endorse or any kind of spiritual belief what i'm wondering is it almost seems like there's two different ladders here one that's leaned up against one wall and one that's leaned up against another and the one ladder is leaned up against the technology and materialistic wall and it's a it's a wall that we all have to climb because we all live in a world where we have certain needs and we have to get those needs met but there seems to be another wall that is is not even that concerned with that not concerned with these kind of worldly things and i'm just wondering if you have any opinion on this consciousness technology versus spirituality and the way i always put the question to people is does et have a nde life review are they there to one say oh gee you know i had a pretty good life but i could have done that better and you know to truly be one with the godhead i probably should have done this or that it is at the core for me of the mystery because people may not know that although i do hypnosis for those having encounters i also do hypnosis take people into past lives and for me what this does is help me understand my present journey my present adventure on this planet so to start with if i have taken someone from their past life through the death sequence and they're seeing themselves as a spirit just like you know the nde where they're seeing themselves as a spirit and whatever and i'll say to them what did you learn in that life they may say well i starved to death i learned about limits or i learned about compassion or whatever so they can give you what they've learned the other thing and this is leading into where i think this is all about is the fact that from that then they'll say now i chose to come into human form i had that you know i chose my parents my siblings i chose the journey i chose my challenges because i wanted to explore physicality in this particular time span and experience and grow from that experience so for me that doesn't contradict any of what the yogis are saying is that we're spirit we're consciousness we're connected to all consciousness and we all perhaps are connected to whatever that source of consciousness is whatever name you want to give that i i try not to use names because everyone has a different idea of what that collective consciousness is so for me that makes absolute sense you know you you talk to people who've done many of the life between life dr newton actually in journey of souls did hundreds of of these regressions where they found about the soul and the spiritual mode and so what it then says to me is so we've come in to this human journey at this time because we want to experience from a material level which means everything that goes with a material level including technology as part of the journey to growth because we've come here for a i call it a you know a spiritual adventure we want to challenge ourselves as as a consciousness to experience certain things and everybody has their own journey with that which makes a lot of sense to me is why some choose more challenging physical journeys and some more emotional or spiritual because we're all different consciousness wanting to explore greater than ourselves so that's how i see it so in fact when people say where's the free will the free will is in your attitude to it do you want to see it as a victim or do you want to see it as a way of enabling you to expand in terms of your understanding so when i approach anything i get many many people that really are interested in the spiritual journey why am i here what's my mission and i get this all the time so part of my work is helping them to a place where they can explore that you know and they may go into a past life or they may suddenly find themselves on another planet or whatever so me they may find themselves in a parallel universe different timeline i go anywhere doesn't matter to me because as long as it gives them more of a sense of them themselves and their spiritual journey they can experience anything they've seen themselves as beings mantis beings gray beings they've seen cells as crystalline beings energy beings light beings they've seen themselves in all these different roles as creator beings do you see where i go is more or less there's no there's no limits to that because there's no limits to consciousness so for me it's it's about okay so where are you at where you know are you still doing abc here and adding up or are you doing calculus or are you actually doing your degree so in terms of awareness i as a counselor i'm looking at the level that person finds the most helpful to them in their journey and for some it will be i want to deal with the pollution of the planet i want to i want to make a difference there others will say i'm here just to be just to experience it's all cool because as long as they're happy with how they understand themselves that's all that matters so some of us want to stay and work with the 3d reality others want to actually move to another level of understanding and it doesn't really matter how we do it through a near-death experience out of body experience shamanic experience healing experience we all have different ways of reaching that level of consciousness that we seek as a soul so i don't know if that's answered your question it does and i'm really glad you brought up the counseling part because i don't hear you talk about that very much of course that's the first thing people focus on because that's how people like to pigeonhole people oh she's just selling books oh she's just trying to do regressions you know and that's not been my my experience has been the opposite you never leave with that i'm sure you have more of that work than you probably it's more of a burden than anything else if anything i hope i'm so glad that you brought that up i do want people to check out uh this book and your other books there's tons of extensive free youtube presentations that you've given that are up there for free that people can find and i want you in a minute to talk about your website but i do want to emphasize this counseling thing because i think it is so it's going to be so meaningful to some people right now who are listening to the show are going to be so thankful that there's someone like you out there who is open who is a trained professional who they can go and confide in and maybe find some answers to some questions that they don't even dare you know talk to their spouse about or talk to their family about and yet with you mary they're going to find somebody who's you know been there done that it's not there isn't going to be the judgment because you've done it so many times that it's okay it's okay to contact mary and if she has the time to talk to you it could really be a healing experience for i think a lot of people and i know you've experienced that over and over again and maybe you want to just speak to that a little bit more well that's the core of everything i came in because somebody came to me saying there's no support groups mary for this they just think you're crazy so people contact me with that am i crazy or is this valid and if it's valid what do i do with it so i'm there to be a sounding board i'm there to offer information that may help them validate it but more than anything to give them the the openness and permission to explore whatever it is that's coming up and they've said i've never been able to talk about this to anyone they may have spent their life with this dual reality and never once been able to say it to anyone because they're afraid of judgment or afraid that people will think they're they're crazy or whatever so that is my main focus is helping people open their own door to that broader reality or that that multi-dimensionality feel normal and know that they're not they're not crazy but they're actually more normal than most people because they're actually realizing they're multi-dimensional rather than just a 3d solid meatball you know and and for me that is why i do what i'm doing why i'm doing this interview why i write the books is not because it's it's it's about the information and it's about the fact that it gives people a way into honoring what every one of us experience which is intuition which is sensing and knowing awareness that we are not just the physical body and to have almost like a validation that they are okay and they with that being okay means that they can then can expand without being scared or fearful that there's something wrong mary what's the best way for people to connect with you i said that you know i can obviously pick up a lot of videos or the book the website and other contact stuff we'll have links in the show notes but for folks who are just listening you want to share some of that my website is ascern.com which is the Australian Close Encounter Resource Network the other one is maryrodwell.com i'm on if you just google me you'll find loads of presentations come up and i'm on facebook it's not hard to contact me you can contact me through any of those venues well it's been just terrific having you on the show again and and reconnecting and the information to share is so great and i hope my introduction turns out not to be true or at least not to be true for most people and i hope they're willing to kind of push past this this barrier and really dive deep in an open mind because it's just paradigm shattering to use your words but it's harder than i thanks so much for coming back on mary it's been a pleasure alex and you always ask such interesting questions and i love that so thank you for everything you contribute thanks again to mary rodwell for joining me today on skeptico the one question i guess i'd have to tee up from this interview it's the question i challenged y'all with at the beginning is what would it take to convince you of the reality of mary's research and i have to stress again that it's not easy it's i i i don't know if i'm there all the way i mean i i go step by step through the data and i always wind up there but then i step back and trying to live my life like that i just don't know it's just way too much to take in what do you think so let me know find us through the skeptico website it's k e p t i k o dot com you'll find all our previous shows there available for free for download to enjoy do whatever you like with share them with friends all that good stuff a lot of topics we cover you can also click on over to the skeptico forum i am active on the skeptico forum so if you really want to have a follow-on discussion with me or a question you can check out the skeptico forum and there's a lot of good stuff there i have some good interviews coming up i think some great guests please stick around for all of that until next time take care and bye for now