 Like, do the obvious things, do the obvious goddamn things, we're all sleep deprived, so sleep more, we're all heads on sticks, so move often, you know, we're all eating ridiculously refined and processed foods, so eat real food mostly plants, not too much, Michael Pollan 101, you know, we're all neurotically, excessively ruminating in our default mode network, so practice is like strategic gratitude, right, we probably have whacked out sporadic or dysfunctional sex lives, so circulate your sexual energy and have good healthy consensual orgasms, right, like those simple things, like get sunshine, get outside, so do those things and if you are well rested, moving your ass, right, hydrated, fueled, you know, and alive, you will have a much higher incidence of getting into some peak state where everything clicks. Boom, what's up everyone, welcome to Simulation, I'm your host Alan Sackian, we are still at Consciousness Hacking's Awaken Future Summit, we are now sitting down with Jamie Wheel, hello, thanks so much for coming on the show, really appreciate it, super excited for this conversation, Jamie is the Executive Director of Flow Genome Project, Jamie you were just giving a talk at the State Shared Awaken Future Summit, what was the talk about? Gosh, I'm trying to remember the title, it was something along the lines of the agony or the ecstasy, transformational culture at the crossroads, okay, unpack more for us, so you know, we're finding ourselves at this kind of heady high point of, depending on what you want to call it, but like in a placeholder, the psychedelic renaissance, so there's all of this new information, you know, Denver just decriminalized psilocybin, Michael Pollan came out with his book a little bit earlier, he came out with the book Stealing Fire, and it sure seems like there is an unprecedented amount of interest, media ink, et cetera, and possibility being spilled on what can happen as we introduce psychedelics into civil society, basically, and having been a student historically of this movement, you know, for the last half century, just, you know, there's nothing new under the sun, and there are certain predictable patterns that show up both in counter-cultural movements in general, and certainly in this one in particular that are somewhat predictable, and so just kind of laying that, laying some of those interpretive lenses or frameworks over the real time heady and exciting, and the world is infinitely possible moment we're having, feels helpful, and the things I've been seeing was just a chance to share it with other people and be like, I don't know, what do you guys think? And it for sure is based on the audience and community response, it felt like that was surprisingly resonant, you know, a frequent comment was like, I've been thinking things like this all along, but no one said it like that, and so just the ability to like hopefully say things in a straightforward way that other people can pressure test, and then, you know, they can chew it up, they can discard bits, they can modify, but the idea of like at least bringing, you know, instantiating the conversation that is critical, not in the sense of negative critical, but critical in the sense of serious and considered, and bringing tools to the analysis, hopefully, that's useful. We're talking about patterns of accessibility to psychedelics, patterns of business being involved in psychedelics, patterns of psychedelics creating more open-mindedness and then that being a trouble to some of the economic machinery that is potentially in place. What are we talking about with these patterns? I mean, yeah, it just depends on yes to all of that. So the question is, you know, I keep going back to Tim Wu, who wrote that book, The Master Switch, which is all about information systems. He was also the founder or the coiner of the term net neutrality. He's a media theorist. I think he's at Columbia, if not his NYU, but he's out that way. And super smart, thoughtful guy. And his basic idea was anytime you have a revolution in information, and he takes it all the way back to like telegraphs and pony expresses and, you know, early radio, movies, TV, and now the internet and beyond, he's like, they always start out utopian. And everybody thinks this is going to change everything. And then they always end up hegemonically centrally controlled. And so if you consider psychedelics and information technology, which is basically providing people with insights and access to data they can't normally access, and then, you know, we should expect it to behave as as all the prior revolutions have, unless or until proven otherwise. And that kind of historical perspective on this moment seems to be potentially lacking. And it would be nice for us to introduce a little balance. Like this is never this, you know, like there's nothing new under the sun. So let's not be surprised or bushwacked when some predictable things come up. Maybe one example, most recently, that has not fallen under that same pattern is decentralization technology, blockchain technology. Yeah, although, you know, once you get rid of the speculative bubble around blockchain, and you actually see where the momentum actually is, it's with Accenture. It's with it's with it's with PwC. It's with large centralized, well capitalized agencies putting in the back end on distributed ledger record keeping. And all of the utopian elements of blockchain, at least, you know, for now, although you know stock prices up and down everywhere, you know, everywhere, that you're basically, you know, a lot of the frothy utopian visionary stuff just kind of went away when the speculative easy money side failed. And, you know, for now. And what we're seeing is again, sustainable, very dull, but utility level plays made by tons of established plays in the market. Now, people love to say IBM didn't create the world's best search engine disruptive Google did, right. And that kind of movement that the incumbent never innovates. But that's also a little bit of exceptions proving the rule that incumbents often actually continue to run the table. And so it'll we'll see, we'll see where the blockchain actually breaks that pattern because of something unique and structural about it, or whether it succumbs to that pattern of capture, because of the, you know, more persistent trends and forces in the core communities of Bitcoin and Ethereum seem to be continuing strong in the in the good direction. Now, teach us about what you're thinking around the Awaken Future Summit, putting piecing together psychedelics and technology and meditation. How can we break free from that pattern? I mean, I think, and this is 100% concurrent with the decentralized blockchain space. I think that kind of the only chance we have to avoid, you know, game theory market capture 101, just things regressed to someone running the table and locking it down and then reshaping rules, rules and regs to perpetuate advantage is just a absolutely unwavering stance towards open source. And that's a that's a tricky thing, because we're pouring, you know, the sort of psychedelic renaissance into the current conditions, current cultural norms and understandings. And there has been a decade plus of kind of quasi libertarian, very market friendly, do good or business ethos, which bought, you know, the big social stocks, the big tech stocks, an awful lot of runway to be free and clear of government constraints, free and clear of civic, you know, oversight or constrained. And that got us to about 2016, right? And then the wheels have come off that might wait a second, the whole make the world a better place thing that became an absolute platitude. Was that legit? And arguably not like all the fluffy pieces on the sharing economy, you know, and this and that around 2010 11, whatever that was kind of a thing, you're like, Yeah, that's interesting. And there's a bunch of people generating user generated content and all this kind of stuff, but the cap tables are the same. So it was like it was like a new paint job on a rusty old Chevy. And, and, and, you know, yes, now that imbalance between the actual fundamental structures of governance and capitalization and value sharing and distribution have been kind of exposed. And there's a backlash right now. But the possibilities of, of what we're, what we're up to now, it feels sort of like you have to this is true, not just with psychedelics. This is true with AI. This is true with a host of emergent volatile fields, which is to the best of our abilities. Somebody needs to take a stand for the high ground, the best practice, knowing that that is both essential and inadequate. And that there will always be pirates and subversives who will work around that. But that the high ground, I think there has to be flags planted as to what we believe is highest and best and what ought to be done and what ought never to be tried. So first principles approach to psychedelic renaissance that is open source. Yeah. Okay. And then how would this propagate out into the world as an open source platform technology? Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, in some respects, it requires kind of like winding it back a couple of steps to even be like, what the hell are we talking about? Because right now, the current narrative has been a very, very procured and very circumscribed, right? So we get the discussion that most folks, let's just assume I'm a mainstream consumer of media. And I haven't heard of this stuff. I haven't been participating in those subcultures, that kind of thing. I'm just getting it because the New York Times wrote about it, or I'm reading it in Wired or whatever. And that story is medicalized. That story is pharmacology sized, right? That story invariably focuses on PTSD, and specifically highly sympathetic populations, which should be, which is war veterans and childhood abuse and sexual trauma. So you have basically a persona or character that can really not be challenged and shouldn't be. I mean, those are people who have have suffered far more greatly than any human should expect to be and deserve the best interventions available. So but that is also that there's a there is not not a strategy in those being the faces of the movement. It's the same with Charlotte's web and Charlotte's law for CBD. Right? That was actually deliberate. Because how can you say no to a young girl with seizures versus a stoner in the basement? Very, very specific messaging. And so that's an element. This is neither good nor bad. It's choices. And and then you end up with the medical model, which is, you know, all the clinical trials and everything else are working within the FDA approval track and process. They're working within double blind placebo controls. They're working with all the normal stuff. Therefore, the understanding of how this works is it works better than Prozac. It works better than talk therapy. It has these benefits in this efficacy and is cost effective. It has better percentage returns. It does whatever it does. But that is just an utterly foreign permutation of what psychedelic culture has been up until that very date until this last five years, which is both its success factor, how it's getting through all the gates that have been shut until now, but also not an accurate reflection in any way of what the last 50 years of psychedelic culture has actually been. And even the thousands of the most indigenous use of the plant medicines as well. It's just right. Like you explained the last five years, I agree that almost certainly it's been portrayed as assisting psychedelic assisted psychotherapy is the main portrayal of this. Rather than the awakening properties that have been used for thousands of years of communion towards unity, all this complex. Yeah. Very interesting point. I'm just however it ends up unfolding your your bits about it open sourcing and focusing on that. Would love to unpack that more with you about how exactly to optimally roll that out. Do you have ideas? I mean, you know, super nascent based on the last 72 hours of conversations with maps and other places. But it's basically my my strong advocacy to reckon the team of maps is like, take that ground, claim the high ground, don't leave it up to, hey, we think a benefit court or nonprofit is probably the best way to go. And we're going to do it that way. But who are we to say to, we are the ones to say we have taken 30 years of impeccable high integrity action on behalf of everybody with no promise of happy outcome. Now the happy outcome is here. We are actually going to name and like, for instance, on the simplest thing is their B corp taking responsibility for sanctioned manufacture and distribution of clinical MDMA. You're like, okay, great. So then, you know, they have the power at this moment to articulate, we will only distribute it to organizations with this entity structure, with this governance, right, with this charter or bill of rights or best practices. And we will modulate that will that stop pirates and vagabonds, not at all. But and we should anticipate and expect that just like, you know, rip off Chinese DVDs. But we should also, you know, have that as clean a signal as possible to consumers, because the consumers of let's just fast forward 24 months, and you do have expanded access, MDMA, you know, assisted psychotherapy. Well, whether or not that's yet plugged into the health insurance and reinvestment system, whether it's cash upfront, however it stacks, you have people that are in highly vulnerable states, like I have treatment resistant, anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, whatever it may be, like I am banged up and hurting, and I am desperate for a solution. So to have a clear signal on the hill, this is a safe place. This has reliable quality control. This has solid adherence to best practices, that level. And you know, and this is like my internal experience, healing, you know, vulnerability, trauma, all of it is being held in in hands that are free from ethical compromise. And whether you know, the journalists have ethical guidelines, lawyers and doctors and therapists have ethical guidelines. It feels like the that the intersection of this profound form of therapy with market forces is a recipe for to put it absolutely mildly mixed results. This is a good idea is having the ones of the most robust ethos be the ones that push the paradigm forward and then also distribute to others that align with the ethos and kind of create that as the the zeitgeist around psychedelics and the Renaissance. And otherwise, you can get this mixed bag of market forces with psychedelic movement. Yeah, that's well summarized. Okay. All right, let's move into flow. I have to. Well, let's put it let's to pull to put it mildly. You know, stealing fire, flow genome project are just some of the most important ventures into what is so unknown about our deepest cognitive drives and instincts and behaviors. To be able to pursue something with North star and lose sense of time is a feeling that I think everybody cares about. And when and everybody deserves. And so what has been happening since then, tell now the cutting edge 2019, what are you learning about flow right now? Well, I mean, even to to walk it back a little to give us permission to riff, which is that flow is arguably a subset of positive non ordinary states, right? So you can have positive non ordinary meditative experiences, transformative technological experience, sexual experiences, you know, kinetic experiences, dance movement, action sports, whatever, and flow is a specific element of that. So if you want to talk about kind of ecstasy, which would be the bigger, you know, waste old school name that we can put on top of that whole category. What is happening now that wasn't happening a couple of years ago? I mean, I think that there is a an increasing understanding of I mean, simply, five years ago, it was all about alpha and theta waves, and groovy meditation. And that was and maybe a little heart rate variability, as far as you wouldn't want to talk about mechanisms of action. And now there's a clear rising tide of interest in gamma waves, waking delta waves, vagal nerve and vagal nerve tone, and the endocannabinoid system, which is most folks don't even know this, like nine out of 10 American doctors have no fucking idea what the ECS is. All the researchers is radially. And which is fascinating, because it is such an ass backwards way it got to be that there was a US Senator, who had a son who was a stoner in college, like 20 years ago, was freaked out, and called he's like, who's doing any of those research, who knows what the hell's going on? And was my son going to fry his brain? It was like, like, like, help me like he was fully indoctrinated, like Nancy Reagan just say no kind of stuff, found this out of the way completely underfunded Israeli researcher who just been chugging along on cannabinoid research was like, Oh, my God, you saved my life, you saved my family and recreated and then it's put like, I think it was State Department funding towards Israeli research on the endocannabinoid system. So you're like, okay, fascinating. And they actually discovered that, that the endocannabinoid system basically functions as a secondary immune system and our entire system. So like our immune immune system, the one everybody thinks of, just jins up white blood cells when something's wrong, and it has to go fight it, right? The endocannabinoid system actually responds in real time by directionally. So it actually sends signals to the brain and back to the organs. So it's this 360 degree loop. And it regulates everything from inflammation to blood pressure to a gazillion other things. You're like, holy shit, how is this such a complex system? No one knows about it. No one talks about it. And so all the pro cannabis stuff where like CBD is good for this and good for that. And it does the other thing, you know, and people like really, is this just hype? And it's some of it is for sure commercialized hype. But the actual reason why is because can but you know, that particular plant accidentally intersects without pre existing and a cannabinoid system. And that is a radical place of leverage that has not been medicalized or optimized yet. How many industries is this happening in where the just in nutrition and in healthcare, this just asks backwards in so many ways that the complexity of the body is in all the biometrics is just one is being focused on less than the free market forces driving whatever it's it's it's a slow down and think from a human centric perspective is so critical here. Okay, so yeah, so you said Vegas nerve, a gamma, there's so many, there's so much here. And what about activating flow states for other people around the world that are watching? What would be some of the basic principle recommendations for people to for north stars and movement in that direction losing sense of time? Yeah, I mean, the simple is, you know, whatever you can do to get that rusty dial of your consciousness, moving again. So the first thing is just to understand, and this can be tricky, like if your life is locked down, and it just feels like struggle and stress. And everything is hard and you're tired. It can be really hard to have faith that you're actually wired, right, for spontaneous, joyful expression. Like that's that that's one that kind of comes off line. And when you're not in it, it's really odd to keep the faith that you can get back to it. But that said, one of the first things is just try and ungunge your dial. And so instead of being locked into sort of 21st century normal, tired by our stress, practice, you know, do the obvious things do the obvious goddamn things. We're all sleep deprived. So sleep more. We're all heads on sticks. So move off in, you know, we're all eating ridiculously refined and processed foods. So eat real food, mostly plants, not too much Michael pollen, one on one, you know, we could all we're all neurotically excessively ruminating in our default mode network. So practice is like strategic gratitude. Right? We probably have whacked out sporadic or dysfunctional sex lives. So circulate your sexual energy and have good healthy consensual orgasms, right? Like those simple things like get sunshine, get outside. So do those things. And if you are well rested, moving your ass, hydrated, fueled, you know, and and and alive, you will have a much higher incidence of getting into some peak state where everything clicks. As far as specific things, if you really want to get kind of technical. Josh Waitskin, the chess prodigy who wrote the art of learning and a bunch of other books, he's a super smart dude and really good at cracking the code on a bunch of different disciplines. And that's kind of why I think he's such good friends with Tim Ferriss and everything that they are going to like minds in that way. You know, he has a four step process. And I think we've modified it at some point. So I don't remember which bits is Josh's because we kind of combined it with some other Red Bull extreme sports prep that we were observing and watching, but it's basically, you know, fuel. So basically have some high quality, stable energy source. So you're just glucose to the brain 101 move, like literally engage in some priming process of, and it's literally like, we are monkeys come down out of trees. And like we're only as conscious as our movement patterns. So if we're like wobbling around from like fixed object to fixed object, and we're just heads on sticks, and we you know, in our feet are encased in rubber and leather, and we just never are actually grounded and going through full range as a motion. Our consciousness is constrained as a result. So full range of motion, it can be as simple as cutting the stairs instead of the elevator, it can be all the normal kind of goofy stuff that's normally about like, my belly is a little fat, and how do I burn calories? But like, it's actually like, embodied cognition, like move, because you will become more awakened alert. Breathe, changing your respiratory pattern changes your state of consciousness. You know, if you breathe really slowly, you can down regulate your nervous system. If you breathe really quickly, you can up regulate your nervous system. And if you breathe super fast, deeply for a long time, you can completely transcend your nervous system. And then listen, like music is amazingly potent. So pick your favorite tunes that amp you up, chill you out, whatever, combine those and then go and do the thing that is either challenging and you want to be at your best, or super fun, and you want to be at your best. And then rinse, wash, repeat. It's a lot of great stuff there, Jamie. Okay, so finding what is you gave us the the the fuel with sleep and nutrition and movement, and much more likely to get ourselves to peak states doing these things. Simultaneously, we are starving for meaning in our lives at the same time. So for people that are searching for that, find a North Star, what about that for you? Well, that for me or that for what I recommend for what you recommend. Yeah. I mean, I don't think we actually have to look that far. Like if you just, I mean, the starters would be like hot tub time machine to 2007, you know, like, turn off your social like dumb down your phone. Turn off everything that's not phone, text, ride sharing, maps and music. So start like reclaim your mind share. If you're just a conditioned dopamine loop fucking monkey, you're done. There is no winning that game. So reclaim your time. And if anybody winches or starts boggling right there, that's a sign of how fucked you already are. I liked them. I mean, but my phone is my clock. You're like, well, buy a goddamn clock, like leave your phone in the kitchen, like laptops, like interfering with people's lives, those kind of things. So like physical is just unjacked from the matrix. And it doesn't have to be, you know, puritanical, if you can still make use of the tools, all that kind of stuff, but the endless scrolling the endless that stuff you've done, you will not ever have clarity and awareness to do anything useful. So that would be one. Amen. The simplest, you know, go and program those moments that matter most. Don't let them be incidental or accidental because life will always expand and crowd them out. And so the simplest is movement in beautiful nature. If you're blessed to have choice around that. And that can be as simple as sit by the irrigation pond with some rushes and some ducks for your lunch instead of again, thumbing through your scroll, it can be going to your city park or your state park, you know, if you're fortunate, a natural park or you know, public lands, like go, go and spend time there. Watch the sunrise and watch the sunset. Pay attention to what phase the moon is in. You're lucky catch a shooting star like simple, simple as shit that most zoo animal humans are just missing at this point. I mean, the fact that like kids are trying to like do chemistry in school because of Sputnik, you know, like that's literally how we ended up with these ridiculously lopsided science curriculum, you know, was based on the space race circa 1953. And that hasn't been upgraded. But people can't identify three living plants outside their window, you know, or phases of the moon, or two constellations in the sky, or right, haven't seen a sunrise or sunset. So like, do basic human things, and your life will be richer. And then ideally, if you can create simple, safe, appropriate peak experiences for yourself, where you can you alluded to the selflessness and timelessness, those kinds of breakthroughs. Simplest are respiration, we already talked about it, movement and embodiment, and not just like, not like jumping jacks or yoga, it's like just literally like just working out the kinks where we're banged up in balance, etc. sexuality is a massively strong evolutionary driver. It has all kinds of neurochemical and physiological imprinting. And for the most part, it's tragic, sad, misguided, and unsatisfying for everybody involved. And yet right there, if you're like, Oh, evolution like, absolutely made us be able to do this, no matter what without an instruction manual, that's a pretty strong degree of encoding. Can you just jump the tracks and reroute all of that, all of that neurochemistry over to the project of shifting states of consciousness for the better, you know, spoiler, like, Yes, you can, you know, and you combine that with breathing, you combine that with movement, you then combine that with movement, or music. And before you know it, you actually end up with a stackable practice that is either the kinkiest bio hacking or the nerdiest kink you've ever come across. And you're like, Hey, and if any of that freaks you out, just don't worry about it, back off the stuff that freaks you out. You know, respiration will get you there. Right? Movement will get you there. Music will get you there. Every single one of those can actually get you to the destination by itself. If you want to stack them in a combinatorial protocol, you will get further faster and generally experience more fun. If you're and if you're really struggling to get to lift off of a true selfless experience, just try this is not doctor advice. So don't. But if you were gonna sleep deprivation and fasting, right, every traditional indigenous culture that has not had access to stronger catalysts, basically, I mean, the Lucidian mysteries, you name it all began with like, three days, you're asked your initiates, it's like fraternity hazing, you're not allowed to sleep, and you don't get anything to eat. And that is going to bring you much closer to the liminal zone before anything else you add on top of that. Those were so good. So good unplug from the matrix and get one more thing to add would be I think the kind of the having a buffet of options to play with to see where the deepest meaning comes from playing with those things and and then creating and building tinkering making to get meaning from that process as well as we're, those were all so good and just the disconnection in these massive metropolises away from nature civ redesign. Yeah, yeah. Question about what's happening 8 billion humans 100 billion come before us build this incredible world we have, but 8 billion now, since the industrial revolution just and the exponential technology age, AI, synthetic biology, neuro technology, it's a climate change. There's a lot that's in the hands of millennials and Gen Z to try and come up with solutions to some of the things that we're most pressing on the on the planet. What are some of your thoughts around the areas that we're approaching? And what are some of the best strategies that we can have towards tackling this geopolitically together? While continuing to have some competition, but collaboration? Well, that's massive. You stood you through it like geopolitical cooperation, but then also some form of seemingly like community versus civic kind of civic activation. I mean, I think the short answer is no idea. And I think about it every day. Slightly longer answer would be, you know, the people I've drawn the most inspiration from lately have been people in the developing world. Amazing humans who are mobilizing needed solutions in their communities with a fraction of the resources we have. And they are they are sort of acting or that they're thinking locally and then acting globally. And so it's the reverse of the bumper sticker. You know, they're actually they are solving for problems that are needed in their communities. And then those solutions are actually massively scalable. And by design, you know, or by default, actually, by default, because they're coming from places with massive resource constraints, they're ingenious, they're cheap, and they're scalable, and they work because if they didn't work, we would never have heard about them. So versus like that, you know, our model, you need an NGO, you need a big nonprofit, you need an app, you need a big exit in an IPO, whatever the hell, we think it through. They're just like, No, man, this is just needed. So we started. And then it caught and it grew. And we've continued to try and help it. And I feel like there's an actually, there is a role of, you know, and I use this term, you know, aware of its direction on nature, but reverse innovation. It actually feels like, what has 50 years of the of the West and the World Bank and the IMF holding forth from on high, what the develop, you know, developing world needs to do is like nuclear plants. Well, some of those didn't work hydro. Oh, that didn't quite work. We're not actually remit, we're not actually recommending anything we still do. We're just selling you our last lap of mistakes, you know, with with, you know, loan shot interest. And what's happening now is the developing world work, you know, for lack of a better term is actually figuring stuff out. So you do that idea of like leapfrog innovation, you know, like no one's laying telephone poles anymore, they're going straight to wireless. We're not just getting leapfrog innovation, cascading into the undeveloped markets, you're actually getting a reciprocal or reverse innovation coming back from those places. And I feel like that's actually, weirdly, one of our greatest sources of hope for ourselves, not just for them. This is so interesting, looking at developing countries that have greater resource constriction. And whereas we have such abundance, that it's the business model of venture capital and in stocks, and it just an apps and engineers and versus just something as simple as having a need in a community filling that. And then that's very interesting that you say that Jamie, it's possible that we could look to the developing world for a lot of these leapfrogging technologies. That's very, very cool. I never would have known it other than just happened to be fortunate enough to get to attend a gathering where some of the major change agents in the world in Africa, India, China, Central and South America were there. And they were there because they've been doing things at scale, touching millions of dispossessed refugees, children, etc. And you're just like, and one of the, one of the leaders of that community, Fred Swanaka, who actually was Stanford B School grad, and then took down 100 million bucks of the Gates Foundation to then create an infinitely scalable intervention for the African, you know, African leadership over the next 6000 days is like in 6000 days, Africa becomes the largest labor force on the planet. And if we haven't figured out how to do it, we're done. So there, there's sort of talent sourcing was going to townships, refugees center, you know, refugee camps everywhere else. They were, you know, collections of people that said, who are your young people who have the best chance of solving for all this? And let it literally be a bubbled up crowdsource, they weren't doing SATs, they weren't doing GPAs and essays, they were like, come to the community, ask them nominate those kids, bypass undergrad goes straight to solving basically Africa's unique version of the SDG goals and said, here's the seven, don't pick a major, pick a problem, start working on it now at a doctoral level, and go solve that shit. And you're like, oh, my God, and they're doing it. And interestingly, their grads, and then when their grads graduates, when their grads are done, they do 10% of their income for the next decade. And it's double or nothing. It's like, if you're unemployed for 10 years, we lost out. If you make bank, thank you. And they're basically creating a cost per child educational curve that drops off the cliff, like it's just diminishing, they've got four campuses, and a returning long term revenue yield off their graduates that's growing. So they're indefinitely sustainable. You're like, Oh, my God, why isn't everybody everywhere doing that? And we're in a conversation with like the Finnish Education Minister that had just boosted, you know, was responsible for kind of seeing Finland to its number one ranking, all these folks in Western Europe and North America. And that was what Fred said. He's like, I think your guys, frog in the hot tub isn't boiling hot enough. We're out of fucks. We're out of time. We're bold. I mean, I'm paraphrasing a lot of Fred. But that's basically what he said. And all you guys like counting beans and diplomatic incremental solutions because of the politics and the entrenched interest of where you're from, he's like, we're just doing it. Because it's what we got. And it needs to be done. And I feel like that kind of, you know, fierce, but inspiring kick in the ass is needed all around. What a model that we've also been aiming to propagate is why not have the education system have children just tackle the world's greatest challenges from the start that they time that they start school. And then that be the focus of the educational career project based learning around the toughest challenges in the world. 100% seems like that's what yeah, education should be. And really fun and meaningful for the kids because the number one complaint about education, no surprise all of us who went through it is what the fuck does this have to do with my life and giving kids empowering and engaged connection to the world with real time feedback around things that matter and not just like matter on a philosophical level but like literally cause effect. I'm doing stuff I see the results. You know, not I'm balancing equation and I'm never going to use this again. And so that's the irony is that we actually create far more potent and satisfying educational outcomes. When you actually bring the mandate back to how do we create resilient, anti fragile communities forget like how do we groom a knowledge worker to participate in an exponential global economy where robots might take our jobs like fuck that, like people actually need drinking water, farmland, right, natal care, literacy, you know, decent, clear and scalable sustainable housing, energy sources, like good old fashioned, it's like the, the, I forget where he's from. Maybe it's Kenya. But it's the boy who built windmills is that famous Ted talk that he offered right and the idea of like, I didn't know, but I knew my mother was running out of kerosene and fuel and I figured out how to make electricity out of windmills like that kind of ingenuity, you know, is what we need good jillians more of. And it saves us all the trouble of being like locked to a desk learning shit we know we'll never need. Jamie, more for more for next time. What is going on on playground earth? Where do we come from beyond the 3d reality? What are your thoughts about that? Well, that was a left handed Albuquerque. All right. Wait, wait a second, you have to restate that in more language. Where do we come from? Yeah. Well, I will, I will quote Philip K. Dick here. We are pluriforms of God voluntarily descended, right to reanimate the yen element, which does not know. In doing so, we know that we will forget ourselves in the act of redeeming the other half, which is a terrible irony, because we become what we are attempting to save. And only in remembering ourselves together as the game one, and we get to return for eternity. So we descend from a source. And we need to remember here that we did that. Yeah. And that's how to win. Yeah, the infinite game. He calls it an amnesis, right, the forgetting of the forgetting. But then making that commitment, if you engage his thought experiment, right, we know we're going to forget. And then somehow, I mean, this is Shiva and Shakti, right, this is many ancient stories. Right? If Shiva and Shakti are the one, being the one all the time gets fucking boring. So they split to play hide and seek. Because that's a lot more fun. Split to play hide and seek. To have the game of remembering. Yeah. You know, I mean, look, it's like if it was just hanging out on the couch all summer, that would be lame. But if we turn out the light and you go, boo, let's play again, your turn. Yeah, let's play again, your turn. Yeah, you know, we we also do one of the greatest creations of infinite consciousness is a place where you experience the illusion of being separate from it, which is earth. Yeah. Interesting ways to look at the same thing like that a lot, Jamie. Alright, what's going on with simulation theory? I mean, it's a bunch of wanking. Who the fuck cares? I mean, honestly, does it really matter whether our God is in bits and bytes? And as an architect, or whether he's wearing bathrobe and sandals? I mean, it doesn't change the fundamental existential question. It just reskins it for the 21st century. I mean, the laws of physics are the laws of physics within the game, you can still realize you're in a game, but the rules of physics encoded into the game still apply unless you're until proven otherwise. Now, if somebody gets some Easter egg and figures out how to unlock the next level good for them and share the share the wealth. But really, it seems like a remarkably flimsy rework of good old fashion maker in the sky. And whether he's slinging ones and zeros or whether he's breathing life into clay, does it fucking matter to us? I don't think so. I'm not aware of anything that shifts or changes based on the full commitment to the simulation hypothesis. I mean, maybe I'm missing something, but simultaneously, it's a if we want to get behind the quality of the humans that were there when we invented language, we could run a simulation with proper resources in 100 years, potentially. And that's exciting. So there's a lot to analyze with provided we are still around and have figured out the lessons we need to learn right now, versus engaging in like retrospective curiosity. But yeah, for sure. I mean, if we could figure out, hey, did we for starters, open question, did we ever go up? Did we ever go wrong? Do we ever veer off the Dow or like the natural unfolding or is everything we're doing perfect essential? That's an interesting question. Is this exactly where it's supposed to be as planet Earth? Or have we veered off of the Dow? Yeah. Yeah, and you know, like back in the day, you had like Ishmael, that like book, which was all about the levers and the takers, which was a gross simplification of a bunch of things, but very resonant for a lot of people. And on the other hand, you had folks like like Ken Welber, who was very much like a directional progressivist, saying, no, it's always onwards and upwards. And so there's some way between those like the classic fall from grace, you know, we need to go backwards and find it or ever forwards, ever upwards. You know, those are just two competing and conflicting narratives. And unless you get into some interesting, multi variable time bending, you know, I don't know if any if either of those necessarily pencils all the way through, you know, so there's like a fascinating who is it? It's the guy who wrote the I'm not going to remember it. I'll come back to it. It's basically a ridiculously interesting science fiction story where time travel is made possible via basically instead of like June, we're like, taking the spice for hypostyler travel, travel, this one is powered by orgasm. But it's actually a legit sci fi book. It's not and now I'm down to you. No, it's not. It's it's I'll come back to it. And in one of his stories, there's a star that leaves this is before faster than light travels invented, and leaves earth puts everybody in deep hibernation and then gets 100 million years later to the star they set the plan on but then by that point, the faster in life, the two v threes have already been there for 99 million years, setting up an advanced civilization. So literally the ancestors arrive in time for their descendants to be like throwing a party for them. And so like, now if we open up that can of worms, others and others and possibilities that are non linear and not intuitively obvious. Perhaps those another interesting angle added to it. Okay, what about what is the most beautiful thing in the world? Oh, clearly, powder skiing in the back country with bottomless like champagne blower with, you know, half a dozen dear friends on a bluebird day. I haven't found anything top that yet. Just saying. In fact, in my moments of despair, I do I do like, well, I'm sure there's some movies about this like somebody like what's your happy place. When I get excessively saddened or despondent about the state of the world or our response to it. I do hold out my secret exit is the psychedelic power brotherhood, where basically a core bunch of good friends travel the world chasing storms, both ocean and mountain. And we surf the earth, because somebody has got to feed the holy while it's still around. Gee, this has been a fascinating conversation. I've had a huge blast. I hope you've had a good time. Yeah, huge. Thank you. Thank you for coming on the show and talking to us. I hope that the viewers you guys thank you so much for tuning in. We'd love to hear your thoughts in the comments below on the episode. Let us know what you're thinking. And the points that Jamie unleashed on us. Let's let's get talking about those with our friends or families or coworkers online on social media. Maybe disconnect from social media for long periods of time. You know, there's so much nuance there. And also support people like Jamie, check out Jamie's links below also support consciousness hacking the links to consciousness hacking are below support simulation our links are bliss but the organization's entrepreneurs and artists around the world that you believe in support them help them grow and go and build the future everyone manifest your dreams into the world. We love you so much. Thank you for tuning in. We will see you soon. Peace.