 It's noon Monday. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech. Bradley A. Coats is next to me. Coats and Fry Law Firm. Hi, Brad. Good to be back, Jay. Thank you for coming. So we're going to talk about, you know, what seems to be on the television all day long these days. It's these Christmas movies, full of love, you know? And I say to myself, is this the real world? Is it really work like this? Is this supposed to make you tearful at Christmas? And I don't really know the answer, because we live in little silos. We get the media thrown at us. We get these Christmas movies and other such thrown at us. And, you know, do we really know what goes on out there? So I thought you'd help me. You'd help me in terms of, you know, finding what love is and finding what long-term relationships are and whether the relationship that love has with long-term relationship, how you build love, how you build long-term relationships. It's complicated, isn't it? Well, it's proved to be very complicated and it's kept me and business at the Coats and Fry divorce law firm for a long time now. And it is becoming increasingly difficult. I don't know that the marriage rate has gotten any worser for across the board. You know, you always hear about one out of every two marriages ends in divorce. It's actually closer to 40% of first marriages, 60% of second marriages, and 80% of third marriages end in divorce. Is that right? So it can be tricky. Ironically, the fastest growing increment of the population now in divorce are the baby boomers. The aging boomers over 55, 60 are getting divorced twice as fast as they ever did before. And they're the fastest growing element of percentage-wise of the divorce business, because boomers have always been spoiled brats and want to have everything their way. And what else is there? Why should that change? But you know, there you are. You're in this romance. You're 20, 22, 23, 25 years old or more, maybe sometimes. And you feel you're in limerence, limerence, you know, total love. Does that last? I mean, in your experience? It's hard to make it last. You know, I mean, there's funny little things that start to intervene. I mean, some of the biggest causes of divorce are, you know, money issues, tough during a recession, family issues, tougher when you've got extended family and in-laws you got to deal with, especially over the holiday season where half of them are hate Trump and half of them love him. You know, the season, the Christmas season is hard on you. It's definitely hard when families are getting together. And then, you know, you got women who were, you know, young party girls, maybe when they got married and now they're moms and then like 70% of all first-time moms that report back that they're somewhat depressed after childbirth. So you've got all these different issues, not to mention longevity and boredom and, you know, people's lives going in different directions. So when they take the oaths, you know, under the canopy, whatnot, they may not understand where this is all going. I mean, in terms of the way the relationship works, the way the world works, all these factors that come in and stress the marriage. And so the only thing would be a good thing to have a course. Of course. You're gonna get married, you have to take, you know, the Catholic Church makes you sign a paper, you'll raise your kids Catholic, but there should be more than that. There should be, you know, here's the basic rules, guys. It's not only till death do us part, but how about following these rules to stay together till death do us part? You know, I've, you know, I've been in the divorce business for over 40 years. And some of my long time divorce, old time divorce clients, when their kids start to talk about getting married, they say, Hey, go see coats, I'll pay 300 bucks an hour to have him tell you what some of the things are that you got to work on before, before you get married, reverse counseling, pre marriage, pre marriage counseling. Yeah. And we actually do some of that in the firm, premarital counseling, because there are things that you can do to try and pin down the likelihood of, of a marriage or, you know, talk about marriage, because I'm a divorce lawyer, but really any kind of a romantic relationship to make it last. Can you talk about those things here today? As luck would have it, I can. There's a couple of interesting books that really kind of sum it up. Dr. John Gray's men are from Mars. Women are from Venus. And then another one by Drs. Barbara and peas, who talks about why men don't listen and women can't read maps. And, and they talk, and they talk about the different brain approaches to communication when women communicate over anistic to me, right? Not my book, but they talk about the different communication styles. Women want to communicate as an expression of themselves. They want to sort of talk around issues they did that says that's the sharing of intimacy. That's that's, you know, all about just having them be understood. They don't men instinctively problem solvers. They can read maps. Let's get from point A to point B. We just want to get this done. Why the hell are we even talking about this? I mean, we got this problem solve well, women don't necessarily look for a solution right away. They kind of want to talk around issues and have the process of communication. That's what means everything to them. They got an ongoing need to be reassured. Whereas men, like I say, you know, want to just get to the crux of it and move on. So that's that communication issue is what Dr. Gray says is one of the key issues and preserving relationships is that men have got to get essentially more in touch with their feminine side style of communication and learn to be a little more communicative in the way women want to be communicated the way women want to be communicated to. Yeah, that's right. So I've, and Landers I got I got a classic quote from an and Landers column that old and Landers call about how young husbands should keep their wives happy with only 15 little words. I love you. You look great. Let's eat out. That's a biggie. Can I help? And it's my fault. So basically, if you if you get to hope you guys are ready, it's on the final exam, but it's on the final exam for life itself. It's really it's really true. Dr. Gray is you know, and that's his whole nexus on the end. They say he's got some of the most popular selling books since the Bible. So he's then there's another guy who cuts cuts to the chase even more. There's a guy named Dr. John Gottman who runs something called the love land love lab excuse me up at the University of Washington, Seattle. And his is his is even more simple. He says that the key to preserving a relationship is the man's willingness to accept and he calls it controlling influence from his wife or his or his woman, because the what the lady is the one who sets the social schedule. She's the one that controls a lot of the marital issues and the agendas within the relationship for on from an interpersonal standpoint. So that really narrows it down. Just do whatever your wife or girlfriend says and then you'll live happily ever after. Yes, dear. Yes, dear. Yes, dear. So those are those are two of the experts on it. Then there's the next thing you got to think about, which is that, you know, there's always going to be issues in any marriage or any relationship. And then it's the question of how you can't avoid necessarily fighting, although I recommend trying to avoid fighting altogether. A lot of the old, you know, you and I are children of the 60s. The 60s psycho babble was that, you know, you had this angst inside of you and you had to get it out and we had to have encounter groups and you had to, you know, otherwise would well up inside of you. I kind of reject that advice. I don't think if you've got a problem with your spouse, you necessarily have to hammer him or her. I think you're better off just not fighting in the first place. But if you are going to fight, you got to learn to resolve them. Yeah, and that is that is one of the never go to sleep with a pending fight. Well, that's what they say. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to do that. But you've got to be really careful. I mean, there's something that I call the three P soup. And here's the here's what happens how arguments progress starts off with the base of the personal. You know, you're such a nag. There's no pleasing you. And the pervasive. And you add in any nag about everything. You know, it's like, you know, the argument starts, you know, it's not just you. It's your mother, you just kick it into high gear. And then there's your many, many problems. And then there's that's right. And then there's the part then there's the permanent. And you've always been that way. So now you've gone from the personal to the pervasive to the permanent. And you're screwed. Because the more you start saying stupid stuff that gets, you know, it gets thrown into the heat of an argument. It's really hard to take that kind of word that kind of stuff to take those things back. Yeah, that's right. And so the question is, what drives you to do that? Is it a hormonal thing? Is it an emotional psychological thing that makes you sort of profile your your opposite other? Well, there's a fighter flight response that we all have. Yeah, yeah, you know, everybody's everybody's hard wire to want to have things go their way. And and sometimes you're better off just not talking about that stuff or letting it go. You know, I really am a strong believer in just kind of sweeping some of those rush issues under the rug. There's there's there's some other statistic that say that even those kinds of arguments, 70% of them never get resolved anyway. So, you know, why smoldering? There's always smoldering. So why why get into it? Here's another couple of quotes. The difference between a good and bad marriage is three or four things a day left unsaid. And the sign of a sign of a good marriage is sign of a good marriage is teeth marks on your tongue to have bitten it to stop yourself. So those are because when you think about it, and they've got statistic, I'm a big statistics guys you know from our prior show, they say that it takes five positive interchanges to make up to make up for one negative one. So you say something stupid. It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. Sure. Like forever, maybe sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. You're painting the relationship a different way when you do that. And it's hard to forget that. That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So it's a discretionary point. But what do you do when you've had this kind of freewheeling profiling type argument, where you say all the wrong things. And now everybody is habit and, you know, without some affirmative action, it'll stay that way. Right. For a long time. Right. And maybe undermine or wreck the relationship. Because you know, remember the war of the roses. I took my whole offer to see that. Yeah. You know, it's just gets worse and worse and worse. And so how do you do damage control on that? What do you say what do you do? You know, you say it takes five times as much to take it back. But what's the magic on taking it back? Well, about the only thing that I think you can really do, and it's true. And I think so many different relationships with people is to, you know, is to apologize. You know, I mean, they say that the first one to apologize wins. And that's oftentimes the case. It's not something lawyers are used to doing. But to control. Yeah, lawyers are control freaks, that's for sure. But but certainly, apologizing, realizing it's not quite not quite worth it. You know, that that goes a long way towards towards solving things. But you know, the better approach is just to not get into that mess to begin with that three piece suit. No fun. How do you how do you avoid these arguments without becoming kind of milk toast weenie where you know, you're always biting your tongue. You're always backing off. And the balance changes if you do that. Well, according to John Gottman, you know, the guys are going to have to give into the women that the communication style is so different for women that, you know, sometimes guys are just going to have to go, Hey, you know, it's not that big a deal to me. You know, as long as we get to where we're going, I don't care whether we turn left or turn right on the GPS, you know, and you know, and I see people argue about all that, the women can't read math, you know, I can't read GPS. I don't know, you know, it's hard to it's hard to sort that out. You try and avoid the arguments as best you can. And you realize that what's going to happen realistically is that the the female brain is more designed to to dwell on it maybe than the male brain is male brain just wants to resolve it. And if you can resolve it by apologizing, then just f up, you know, sometimes you have such as the map shows a really simple, you know, problem, the map, the GPS, whatever it is. And somebody tends to elevate a simple problem into a big problem. And that could be either a spouse or either party of the relationship. You've been talking, you've been addressing the man's side of this, but what would you say to the women? I've been trying to figure out what to say to women for my entire life. No, it's a, you know, it is say it is tricky that the reality of it is that the, you know, from the perspective of a divorce lawyer, I can tell you what the stats are. The women file for two thirds of all divorces in America, not only in Hawaii, but in America nationwide. So you've got a situation where ultimately guys, as long as they're getting fed three square meals a day and get to sit back in their lazy boy lounger and watch sports on TV, you know, they think they're in a happy marriage. About the only time a guy will file for a divorce is if there's some other wahine waiting in the wings. If the guy, the only time you'll see, only time you'll see a guy be the initiator of a divorce is if there, if he's already got something else going on in the side that he thinks is, you know, more attractive. And again, it's guys being, you know, lured away because of sex a lot of time. What makes the women the two thirds, you know, complainant what what drives them? What's their reason for saying the marriage is broken usually? Well, you know, I don't know that it comes down to any specific issue. It's women have higher standards across the board. I mean, like I say, guys, you know, there's other statistics, guys, guys are the free. If you're in a new relationship, and you're starting to date somebody, it's going to be the guy that falls in love first. He's going to be the first to say I love you. Women won't ever be the first to initiate I love you and they'll take a lot longer. They'll go, Hey, this guy going to be a good provider, what kind of father he's going to be, you know, and you know, whereas a guy, it's like, you know, what size memory glands does this gal have? I mean, you know, I mean, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's much more men are much more visceral. They're much more, you know, visual. And for women, they've got much more serious set of criteria. You know, we're going to get much more detailed about this, except we're going to do it during the break. So you won't know what we say. All right, we're getting there. We're getting there. That's Brad Coates. This is Community Matters. We'll be right back. Aloha, Stan Undergeman here. You can see me every Tuesday at 3pm here on Think Tech Hawaii. We're not on Friday anymore. So don't be looking for me on Friday. I'm on Tuesday at three here on Think Tech coming to you live and direct from the beautiful studios and downtown Honolulu News Pioneer Plaza. So please join me. And we'll talk everything about hydrogen and clean energy, not only for Hawaii, but for the whole wide world. Aloha. Hi, guys, I'm your host, Lillian Cumick from Lillian's Vegan World. And I come to you live every second Friday from 3pm. And this is the show where I talk about the plant-based lifestyle and veganism. So we go through recipes, some upcoming events, information about health, regarding your health, and just some ideas on how you can have a better lifestyle, eat healthier and have fun at the same time. So do join me. I look forward to seeing you and Aloha. Now, that was refreshing. Too bad you didn't get to see and hear that. We're talking very candidly a moment ago and it was all illegal by the way. So anyway, Brad, how can I tell a good marriage when I see one? How can I tell it, you know, in others? How can I tell it to myself? What are the benchmarks of that? Well, it's interesting because the one of the keys that people don't realize, and I wouldn't say it's number one, but it can head towards number one for, you know, I've been talking about how guys have got to submit to women throughout the rest of this show, you know, women probably fail to realize how important the sexual component of a relationship is to guys. And I'm not trying to sound like a chauvinist pig here, but I mean, you know, a lot of, you know, a lot of the times you get, you know, you get women who are, you know, sexy in their younger years and they decide that they're, you know, biologically that it gets harder or whatever. Guys, guys are, you know, much more sexually driven and until they're too old to be sexually driven. And now with Viagra, they keep going even longer than they probably should. The reality of it is that sexual satisfaction is greater in marriage than it is. And though, you know, the one and not one at a time hookups that that you're having with strangers, I mean, it's that well, it's something called partner specific skills. The longer you've been with somebody and you know their body and you know how to create, you know, what they need as far as satisfaction, the more guy is willing to focus on foreplay and what they call outer course instead of just intercourse, the more likely that is going to be that there's going to be a sexually satisfactory component to marriage. Like I say, the big three sex money and family. Those are the single and then for women, of course, communication. Those are probably the big four factors that it takes to keep a good marriage together. You can do that the payoff fantastic to like risk for a moment. Okay, money, you could have a prenuptial agreement, money, you could be rich and maybe money doesn't mean so much, you know, you don't have to swear or re expense. That's really important. And I suppose it explains that people on the lower end of the scale economically argue more because they have more stress from money. And every penny means something. That's just one thought on the thought about family. Well, I think people are torn. It's like divided loyalty to their spouse or their relationship versus their family. And their family wants them doesn't want to let them go, right? And so the result is this kind of conflict and the way to resolve that. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this, but what it resolves is just pay more attention to the relationship in question. You're exactly right. And it could be a divorce lawyer when you grow up. Yeah. No, that is that is the key. When it comes down to the situation between extended family, some of the in-laws, whatever, you've got to side with your spouse in those kind of situations where we're going to have Thanksgiving, how we're going to do it, who does what to who, you know, and you've always got to stay strong in the relationship. Money can work both ways in a recessionary environment, money moves right to the front of the problem for relationships when there's not enough balance to checking account, you've got a problem. Yeah. But it can also work the other way. Sometimes you got to start making too much money to start getting cocky, you know, I got a rich guy starts thinking, you know, that he can have, you know, this Rapshteen got clown, you know, I, you know, I've got so much money I can have, you know, four underage girlfriends. Oh, yeah. You know, that's a, so it can, it can work either way. Interestingly, now what's happening with internet dating and stuff is that there's a, you can self-select into who you want as a partner and kind of come and, you know, doctor. What's happening is the doctors are marrying doctors, lawyers are marrying lawyers, you know, lawyers used to maybe marry their legal secretary. Now they're, now they're marrying, you know, other lawyers because they find each other on these, on these dating profiles. So you narrow down quite a few of those variables and those marriages actually tend to be more stable. I was going to ask you that. College graduates have a much longer, better shot at a longer term marriage than high school graduates. What about the old magic, you know, love it first sight, different sides of the track, you know, different racial, different economic, different educational, and still they find each other. Sure. And that doesn't work as well. Well, it used to be, you know, that used to be 50% of it. You know, you have an alpha male meets a beautiful woman in an elevator and he lays his best line on her. And, you know, and next thing you know, she, you know, the senior partner law firm marries the legal secretary. Now you try that. It's harassment. So, so, you know, get that noise in the elevator. Yeah. So, you know, it is, it is changing dramatically as far as social media having changed that. So, I know a woman who she was married and it was, it was, you know, a childhood marriage but she got divorced. They fell out of love and then she started doing the Internet. It started when the Internet started really, she's been through several marriages. Yeah. So, I mean, each one was nice and it met her specs and each one ended early. And then she went back to the well for more again through the Internet. Why? Because it's harder to meet people these, my right, it's harder to meet people these days as you get older. Oh, yeah. The Internet helps you meet them and, you know, and find your specs. So, I suppose it serves a number of good purposes. Well, it certainly makes it a lot easier to blow through a lot of different relationships and find them faster. I mean, it used to be, you know, you grew up in Lincoln, Nebraska and, you know, the football star married the homecoming queen because they were the only two that were really fit for each other, you know. Now, you know, football star or not, you can find 20 different relationships on the Internet. It almost reads to what they, at least to what they call the paradox of choice where there's so many choices out there that you can't, you know, you can't bring yourself to select just one and that's, you know, that can be dangerous for marriage too. You can also be conned on the Internet. Oh, totally. There's fishing out there. There's a lot of fishing. So, let's talk about sex for a minute. Just a minute? Yeah. Well, we did, we did that before during the play. That may be your sex like just a minute, Jay, but, you know, I try to last a little longer than that. So, you know, your point earlier about how, you know, you change, you change anatomically, you change in your attitude. Hormonally, you change. Yeah. Over a long time and one party may change more than the other party. And so it requires some toleration. It requires some, what do you want to say? Understanding and maybe abiding your tongue in the sense that you're not going to make the same demands that you might have made or you're going to make more demands and expect the other the other person to go along with that. I mean, what I see is in this particular factor that you've identified is the possibility of people changing, not realizing they're changing, not dealing with, not accommodating for the change. Well, they say that, and again, these statistics are amazing. They say that a third of all marital breakups stem from sexual dissatisfaction. So it's a major component of problems in marriages. And the longer the marriage goes and the older you get and the more your body's changed, you've got all those dysfunctional things starting to happen. It's potentially problematic. The root of the problem is that guys don't seem to understand that for them to reach satisfaction at climax and sexual satisfaction, that's four to six minutes. I mean, you were bragging about it being a minute for you. So that's four to six minutes for the guy. Whereas the studies indicate that it takes 18 to 25 minutes of foreplay and courtship and the massaging and atmosphere for a woman to reach orgasm and full enjoyment of sex. So that's the first thing you got to understand. Hey, it's going to take her five times as long as it takes me to, you know, to release. So you've got to spend more time on outer course and then mood music and everything else because guys just can charge right in there and go. Think of how that problem gets exacerbated by modern chemistry. We've got drugs now that make instant erections for guys. No such animal for women, at least yet. So now you've got even a worse problem. The guy who was prone to skimp on foreplay in the first place now is prone to skimp on it even more because he's all erect and ready to go. And OK, you know, I'm going to bring it down for my normal five minutes to two and a half minutes. And she's going, wait a second. I was hoping to go to 25 minutes. And so it's, you know, sex is a tricky slippery concept. And that can undermine the relationship. Totally. It doesn't work. Totally. So timing. It's a lot of timing. Let me let me ask you this, going back to the original question. How can I tell? How can I tell if I'm in a good relationship one worth making these compromises, these sacrifices or not? And how can you see sitting across a dinner table from another couple, whatever, or at a party? How can I tell where it's working and where it isn't working? It must be some kind of metric, some kind of badge that you could find to determine that. Well, I mean, just the more things you can have in common, I mean, that sounds simple to say, but the more things you can have in common makes sense. I mean, if you're a comparable educational background, the comparable earnings, you know, physically attracted, you know, all those, if you can check all those boxes, that certainly helps. The other thing that is like the lubricant that can ease a relationship is laughter, sense of humor. If you just appreciate somebody who can, you know, just keep you amused, that goes a lot, especially women, say that, you know, more than looks, more than money, where it is. They can find a guy who just keeps them happy and amused. That's a big selling point. So if I find a couple of them. So work on some jokes, Jay. Yeah, if I find a couple that's laughing together, that's a big badge. Just if the chemistry's there, if they just want to hold hands, if they want to, you know, I mean, anything that is, you know, what's happening now, there's this huge dichotomy. President Trump has been a hell of a, he's been more of a divider than a uniter in this country. And you've got people whose political views are driving them apart now. That never used to happen. I mean, I never used to have a client come in and say, hey, you know, my husband's a Trump Nazi, and I'm a, you know, I'm a liberal, you know, and, you know, can you believe the difference that we're having about Planned Parenthood? I mean, really? That used to be, but now that's an issue. I mean, I think staying off of social media and stuff like that helps a lot. You know, you want to trough. Yeah, I mean, you use computers for what they're good for and then stay away from all the cutesy stuff. I mean, the problem with computer, you know, you're much more of a techie guy than I am. But it seems like there's so much more emphasis placed on dislikes than likes. And, you know, I mean, you know, more people are jumping and, you know, and are quick to criticize things that go wrong rather than the supporting thing that goes right. So you've got it. You've got to have a lot of different things clicking to make a relationship work. Well, I'd like to offer a thought. Yeah, we live in a time of divisiveness. That's the way the 21st century is going. And there are, you know, divisiveness, indications of divisiveness all around us. I mean, for example, they got they got a serious epidemic of measles in Samoa. No, they're good medicine. They can take the medicine. But there's this argument that exists in Samoa and also about anti-vax. About anti-vax. Right. That's a divisive thing. And I don't care about you. I care about me. And my views are different than yours. And I just want to offer this thought and see what you say. You know, divisiveness is viral. Divisiveness goes from one issue to another. If you're divisive, you're kind of in a bad mood. If you're divisive, you look for a fight. If you're divisive, nothing works well for you or arguably for some people, anyway. Is the kind of divisiveness we are seeing in this country, coming out of Washington, having an effect on relationships, individual relations? Well, that's what I was saying. Yeah, I mean, I've never had people come into my office and saying, we're getting divorced because we're an opposite political party. I mean, you know, that was never. It's been brought to such a fever pitch. And you're right. Divisiveness is a scourge on mankind. I mean, you know, I mean, look at the division between the Sunnis and the Shiites. I mean, you know, I still can't even figure out what the hell that's all about, but they're willing to slaughter thousands of people over that. I mean, it's just, it's wacky. Wacky. How much time do we have left? I'm not enough. What I want to talk about is talk about the next time we meet and see what we'll discuss then. Give me one minute on that. Well, let me wrap up this one first. If you can stay in a good relationship, it's better personal growth because that gives you, it's like looking in a mirror over time, having somebody that catalogs your life. Sex is better, as we said, between couples, your overall financial health is going to be better. The value of a good marriage adds about $100,000 a year to your net worth. And we're going to be talking about some more of that. And you live longer. And you live longer. You're much longer, much healthier. So staying in a good relationship is a good deal. Then we're going to talk next time about the differing kinds of relationships, dating, mating, marriage, divorce, sex and romance, but the difference between the different generations, how the boomers differ from the millennials and how they differ from the Gen X, which is fascinating because it's having a ripple effect all the way through these different generations in society. So bring me back, will you, dude? I will. OK. Thank you. Brad A. Coates. Coates and Fry. Thank you so much for coming down. Thank you, Jay. Aloha.