 I'm Mark Shklav, the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going to talk with Rhonda Griswold, a lawyer who came across the sea to Hawaii and is now the 2023 president of the Hawaii State Bar Association. Rhonda is a partner at the Cades Shuddy Law Firm where she practices trust in the states. And I want to welcome Rhonda to this program. Hello Rhonda, how are you? Hello, Mark. I'm great. Thanks for having me. Well, thank you. It's really good to have the president of the Hawaii State Bar spend some time with us and talk. And my first question, why did you want to become the president of the Hawaii State Bar Association? I confess they had asked me several times over the years and the timing was never quite right. I have been active in the Bar Association in some capacity for my entire career as a young lawyer serving on a quality of life committee which was unheard of at the time. Section chair for the estate planning section of the bar and the elder law section of the bar. I served on the board of directors and it just seemed, I saw all the good work that the HSBA does and thought that I might be in a position to take it even further. Okay. Now let's talk about the bar. I mean, what is the role of the bar? Both for lawyers and just generally in the community. I mean, I hear what you're saying that, you know, you're leading the bar and you want to take it, continue to take it, doing positive things, but what are those? And what are the roles? Please explain that. So basically our mission is to unite and inspire Hawaii's lawyers and we're a broad, diverse bunch to promote justice, to help the public and to improve our legal profession. That's the mission. How do we do that in a number of ways? I mentioned the sections that we have for various practice areas. That's the mechanism where you can join a section in for estate planning, for example, and really improve your skill set and network with other practitioners. We participate in limited legislative activities, all focused on improving the justice system. For example, today we submitted testimony to the legislature asking it to approve a bill that would add another district court judge for our first circuit. And the first circuit district court is really what I think of as the people's court. That's where a lot of us find ourselves, landlord tenant issues, TROs, misdemeanor criminal cases. A lot of people are in those courts and we need additional judges so that we can get timely dispositions of the various cases. Those are just a couple of examples of what our bar does. I hear you saying that it is to bring lawyers together and also to help the community. One of the areas that I have always been interested in is international law and international practice. Here we are. We're in Hawaii, right in the middle of the Pacific here. And what is there anything that the bar does with respect to international law and relationships? What can you tell us about that? I know it does, but I want you to give us your perspective as the bar president. First, we do have an international section of the bar that brings the various attorneys in our community who are doing cross-border work under its realm. And then we have friendship agreements with three different international bars. Mark, I know you're familiar with at least two of them, I think. One is the Daiichi Tokyo Bar, another is the Shanghai Bar, and the other is the Seoul Bar. The benefit of those friendship agreements is really, I kind of view it as two perspectives. One is the global perspective, where it's a mechanism where you have attorneys in different countries communicating and learning about each other's legal systems and learning from that. And let's face the communication across the borders. It can't be a bad thing. That's a good thing. And then from a business perspective, it helps our local lawyers with networking with practitioners in foreign bars, provides kind of a cross-border referral service, provides an opportunity to collaborate with our international lawyers, and ultimately to provide better services for our clients. Yeah, and I've experienced that myself participating in some of these meetings with the different bar associations that you mentioned. And as a matter of fact, in June of this year, the Daiichi Tokyo Bar Association is coming here to Hawaii. And we're going to have a what we call a friendship meeting, I guess, with them. So I'm looking forward to that. And I think what you said is really right on. I mean, especially the networking, and it helps clients and, you know, it helps the lawyers involved learn and be able to meet. And I only wish that the rest of the world was more like that at times, because when you meet and have educational programs and then social networking, it's really great. Now, you know, okay, and I've heard you talk a little bit about a recent submission of testimony that the bar has done with respect to a new district court judge. Now, there's lots of other things going on in the world today. And in the United States. And now, does the Hawaii bar take any position with respect to these recent events? I mean, we got the Russian invasion of Ukraine, we got mass shootings, we got questions about guns, abortion, police action. What, what does the Hawaii State Bar Association do? What is its position? Does it take any position with any of these things? Unfortunately, we have a very limited role. And it has to be that way because of a United States Supreme Court decision called Keller versus the State Bar of California. Hawaii is a mandatory bar. And what that means to practice is that to practice law in the state of Hawaii, you have to be licensed in this unified bar. And then you pay dues. And we cannot use a member's dues to lobby or weigh in on, frankly, any of the major controversial issues of the day. We can only submit testimony and lobby on issues that are germane to the practice of law. And that means issues that relate to the regulating of the legal profession or an improving the quality of legal services. And so with every, you know, every submission where we're asked to testify, we have to do what we call the Keller analysis and see is this germane to the practice of law. And then even if we determine yes, it is, then we do an additional determination. And that is, would this legislation generally be supported by our members? Because we're trying to act on behalf of our members. So a perfect example of a bill that did pass the Keller analysis recently on our board, we haven't submitted our testimony yet, but we will. And that's improve it. That's a bill to approve the judiciary's budget, where Chief Justice Rectonwald is asking for, I think it's a 4.4% increase in the budget. And he's asking for many things that he's asked for previously. And I certainly hope they pass this time, things like fixing the elevators in the first circuit court building. I personally take the stairs. I don't rely on the elevators. Fixing the roof. If you go, there's, you know, buckets in the hallways. I don't know, probably today, there were buckets in the hallways because of the rain. There's all, and staffing, you know, this, you know, the staffing needs to be more robust to meet the needs of the people. So those are the types of things we can testify on. With respect to things like, you know, the war in Ukraine or Rover's Way, the Dodd's decision or anything like that, you know, our membership is simply too broad and too diverse and has very different views. You know, so all we can do is encourage our members to take an active role in way in and, you know, lobby for what they think would be improvements to our laws. Yeah, I didn't, I wasn't aware of the Keller, Keller decision. And I can see how that could frame your positions of the Bar Association. I was aware of the problem with the elevators when you wonder if you're going to get to court in time. Yeah. Now, and so I, yeah, we have a diverse Bar and we have lawyers that don't agree on things. And so I can see where that might be difficult, even without Keller, to try to reach a consent. And, but you are saying that attorneys should speak out and not just keep quiet on these issues. Is that right? Absolutely. Absolutely. And one thing I'm actually going to put in my president's message, I think, for February, because we're just starting the legislative process. And that is, for any issue that we can't weigh in on our members can and should, and especially to improve the laws that we're going to then be enforcing or having applied to our client, get in on the ground floor, help the legislature make good laws instead of having to wait until they enact the law and then finding the ambiguities or things that you think don't make sense, you know, try to be a resource for our legislators to make good laws from the outset. I like that. That that seems like a good idea. And it seems like a proactive approach also. I mean, it, it makes sense. I mean, you know, you have the expertise, or lawyers have the expertise in certain areas and why not share it? Why not provide it, especially to the legislature that sometimes I wonder about whether they have that background or not. I'm sure it'll help them. Yeah, I think there are a number of talented lawyers in our legislature, but they're not all lawyers and, you know, different perspectives are always good. Well, you know, and I want to now talk a little bit about your own practice, estate planning and trust. And, and as a lawyer, I mean, that wasn't that's not my area of law. And lots of lawyers don't practice in that area. But guess what? They, they want trust in the state planning. What, when you have a lawyer come to see you, do they have any particular point of view? I'm just interested, you know, what if lawyers are the same as ordinary folks? Or do they have a particular question for estate planning? I think they're, you know, I think the lawyer, the issues for lawyers are very similar to every other client, but lawyers, doctors, architects, do you have a particular concern about asset protection? Unfortunately, people make mistakes, you know, even the best practitioners might make a mistake or the best doctor, best architect, whatever. There's exposure there and people want to protect their assets. I have to tell you the revocable living trust that everyone hears about and wants and is a good thing does not provide credit protection. And so that sometimes a misunderstanding in that respect, there are asset protection trust vehicles, but they require you to do something irrevocable and give up an element of control that most people don't want to give up. The easy asset protection here in Hawaii is we have tenancy by the entirety protection for married couples. So if you're married, just own your assets with your spouse as tenancy by the entirety, and that's kind of a simple asset protection tool. Otherwise, people want to minimize taxes, we all want that. And I would also say, and this again is not unique to lawyers at all, but one thing I've learned over these years of practice is that every family has a level of dysfunction, every single family. And maybe on the outside it all looks like smooth sailing, but every family has their issues. And so for an estate planner, we're trying to figure out what those issues might be in advance, so we can mitigate any problems after mom and dad are gone. Or if we're in the midst of that dysfunction, which often happens, then it's our job to try to help the family navigate through it and try to do the best in them and help them see the best in each other and move through what can be a very painful process. You know, I've seen that also in my practice, although I'm not a state and trust practice, but I've seen it in litigation. And so what you say is right on. You know, and when money is involved, people sometimes can't agree on anything. Yeah, it's really sad. And you know, it's the last thing mom and dad would want. And I will sit there in my conference room, my clients are swearing on the stack of Bibles that their kids all get along. No problem. And even though we've got the plan, even Steven, what could go wrong? When mom and dad are gone, the dynamics can change. And I don't want to say every case is like that because it isn't. But there's enough of them that, you know, it's just not unusual. And especially in Hawaii, I think one of our dilemmas is, you know, we're land-rich, cash-poor, you know, we've got our, you know, family home that everybody loves. But, you know, maybe there's kids on the mainland that want the house to be sold. There's kids here that don't ever want the house to be sold and nobody can afford to buy each other out. It's a real quandary. So I, what I hear you saying, first of all, is that lawyers are like ordinary folks with just wills and trusts. And they pretty much follow that same line and that there are issues within families that come up in wills and trust planning and I guess probate also. There is one point, Mark, if I could make it, I'm sorry. That is unique to lawyers, I think. And that is especially for the solo practitioner. It's really important that they have a succession plan for their practice in case something happens to them, you know, and if they don't have a plan, you know, it hurts their clients, but more importantly, it hurts their family. You know, it costs money to wrap up a law practice. And if you don't have someone, you haven't named another attorney to help you take it over, it's just going to increase the cost of trying to transition. So for lawyers, especially solo practitioners, you really need to have a plan, a colleague that's going to take over your practice if something happens to you. That's a very good point. I've never really thought through that. But yeah, that is a good point, a good thing to have. Now, talking about families, you were recently quoted in the Hawaii Bar Journal saying that your grandmother called you the family optimist. And I like that because my mother used to have lots of words of wisdom for me, but I was wondering, that was one thing you mentioned about your grandmother, anything else, any other words of wisdom that your grandmother shared with you? My grandfather called my grandmother the queen of England because she dressed really well and she wore lots of jewelry and she had flaming red hair. And she told me to dye your hair until the day you die. And as you can tell, I'm doing that. I'm doing that. And that was, I guess, yeah, that's kind of a way to continue on and make a good impression is what she was saying. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that's right. And you also quoted saying one of your favorite expressions and what we've used in the title of our program, spread kindness like confetti. Explain that a little bit and what that means. It's kind of a hard one. I don't know. I just know I appreciate it when people are kind to me and I try to be kind to them. And it's kind of a variation on the golden rule for other people the way you yourself would want to be treated. And there's, you know, certain tangible things that people can do that are just kind to make you feel good. My secretary, for example, last week, for no reason, gave me a vase of gardenia, my favorite flower just for no reason. Well, that's pretty darn kind. She knew I was stressing because of this interview. And then I have a partner, a shout out to Keith Yamada, who sometimes will just leave the Haitian gardenia blooms or plumeria blooms on staff desks or my desk or anything. And what a nice thing to do. But the way that also translates to the workplace, I think, is I think we can all show a little more empathy for one another. And, you know, I think being a lawyer is stressful. I think being a young lawyer is particularly stressful. And what I try to tell my team is we are all going to make mistakes. It just, we just make, you know, it just happens, we're human. So don't beat yourself up about it, you know, be kind to yourself. But don't try to hide a mistake either. And, you know, tell the partner in charge. And then to the partner, like, okay, what, what are we going to do to fix it? Most mistakes can be fixed. And then, and my team will say this, I say this all the time, okay, gang, what's our takeaway? What's our takeaway? What are we going to learn from this so that we, you know, that so that we're better the next time? And, and, and this isn't a message just for young lawyers. My team knows I, I will, during our weekly meetings, I'll tell them about my mistake. You know, because I want them to learn about, you know, from me and from my mistake. And I think that's kind of a way of being kind and trying to make sure, you know, especially that younger generation, you know, we all know where we will all went through the same thing. And it is hard. And, you know, again, just try to be the best you can be and learn from the mistakes that you're inevitably going to make. I like that. And what you're saying, basically, I mean, be upfront, be, be a friend. You know, it helps everybody and probably helps the person who's doing it a lot also. Exactly. Now, let me ask you, though, I mean, we're involved as attorneys, and then you've talked a lot now about attorneys and our lifestyle, our work style, I don't know how you'd phrase it best, but litigators, we're involved in an adversarial profession. How do we spread kindness like confetti in that relationship? What do we do? I think we're talking about professionalism and stability, and not personalizing the litigation. You don't have to personalize it. You know, we're all strong advocates, you know, the law usually is not black and white. There's a ton of gray there. Our job as advocates is to sort through that gray, make the best argument we can for our clients. But, you know, it's not a, again, black or white, you know, you're bad, I'm good. That's not the analysis. And I, and I, and so I just encourage people and I, and I try to remember to do it, and I haven't done in a while, I will confess, but I do remember when an adversary complimented me on an argument that I had made after hearing, and I've tried to do the same. So I think it's mainly just don't personalize it and be nice. You can be an effective litigator, but still be cordial and nice, and don't serve pleadings on late Friday afternoon. I appreciate that. Yeah. Let me ask you that, you know, the spreading kindness, do you have any other favorite expressions? I love favorite expressions. I actually ran across one fairly recently that I really like. This is from Ellen or Roosevelt, and it's to handle yourself, use your head to handle others, use your heart. Wow. Isn't that profound? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's nice. Very deep. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then my other one is, I'm a big fan of Michelle Obama. And I think everyone knows this quote already, but the one where she said, when someone is cruel and acts like a bully, you don't do to their level. No, our motto is when they go low, we go high. I love that too. I like that one too. Now, you know, you've talked a lot about just dealing with the profession and your advice to your team. If you're an attorney dealing with stress, and maybe feeling your life is not worth much, or the profession doesn't have a meaning for you, what's your advice? That's a tough one. The first thing is, you've got to just take a break. You've got to step back. And my message to the employers are, you have to respect that. You have to give them space. The other thing I try to do with my team, because we deal with difficult family situations. And this actually, I mean, maybe my practice area, because for me, it is meaningful. And I actually think every practice area is meaningful. But I think sometimes you need someone to remind you of that fact, that what you're doing is important. Whether it's a commercial case where you're helping a client or helping a business, whether it's the public defender who's enforcing constitutional rights, the prosecutor who's keeping us safe. I mean, there's just so many, intellectual property lawyer protecting artistic expression. There's all sorts of meaning. But I just think you need to let your team know when you're feeling that way, so that they can step up to the plate to help you navigate it. And I like what you said. I mean, a lot of the lawyers work, we're helping people. And that's a good thing. But there can be stress in that practice, which I understand well also. And so that's some of the good stuff about being a lawyer is that you're really helping people. And I hear you say, if you're not feeling well, for some reason, talk to people and talk to others and maybe take a break also. I hear you saying, is that right? Is that at least stepping back saying I can't work? Well, number one, I can't work 24 seven. And by the way, nobody should be working 24 seven. But trying to get a schedule that is going to give you the time to take care of yourself. Okay, now we just have a couple of minutes left. I'd like to ask you basically, what are you looking forward to as president of the Hawaii Bar Association? And is there any other words of wisdom that you'd like to share just based on your own experience in the practice of law? I guess what I'm hoping is to continue the conversation about work-life balance and the tools we need to be caring, effective lawyers and take it beyond the top and look at if there's ways that we can improve our system, to be friendly to us as lawyers and still effective for our clients. And I hear in all of what you've been saying is not just stand back, but be active. Be proactive. I mean, if you see something, say something, do something and do something productive. And is that maybe, is that what you, is that, am I right? Is that what you take from your practice of law? We have lost talented lawyers who didn't speak up and they left the firm and were successful outside of the firm. But I always wish if they had spoken up, we could have come up with a plan. And I will say the real issue that also keeps me up at night, I think it keeps up the whole state, and that is just the cost of living here and the inability to keep up with mainland salaries. And so we lose a lot of talented lawyers, young lawyers to the mainland. And I don't have an answer for that. And that's kind of affecting all industries, not just law, but we definitely see it here. Well, I really appreciate you talking with us today about these issues. I think that's critical is that we talk. We talk to each other and what we talk with each other. And so thank you, Rhonda Griswold, the president of the Hawaii State Bar Association for 2023. Appreciate your time, your wisdom, your thoughts and talking. Aloha. Aloha, Mark. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.