 Shalom. Good morning everyone. Welcome to our weekly mentoring hour. This morning we have Jean George, who will reiterate the important points and summarize what she shared last week on helping someone with suicidal thoughts. And after she shares, we will open up the time for all of you to ask any questions, doubts that you may have on what to share or what she's explained. So before I hand over the time to Jean, let's begin with the word of prayer. Can I ask any one of our students to lead us in prayer please? Can one of you please lead us in prayer? Deeksha, are you there? Can you lead us in prayer please? Good morning, Edgar. Let's pray. Have any father? We just once again thank you for this hour of mentoring and pray, Father, as you minister to us through your word, Father. We will be able to learn what you're teaching us in this time of learning and able to apply the same in our lives, Father. We pray for blessing upon our entire faculty and all the students here in Bible College. In Jesus' precious name we pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you, Sanjay. I appreciate your enthusiasm and your willingness always to lead us in prayer. Thank you. So we have Jean George this morning and as I said, she will just reiterate the important points what she shared last week on helping someone with suicidal thoughts and just summarize everything that she shared. So over to Jean. Thank you, Pastor Selena. Good morning, everyone. Once again, it's great to be here. I know we didn't have too much of time for questions last week. And so we'll open up for time for more questions. But then I thought I'll just take maybe the first five to six minutes, just quickly going through what was shared. I won't be going into detail, but just a couple of points that I had shared the last time. I think I want to start with just sharing that the reason why it's important to deal with a subject like this is because of the alarming rates of suicides that have happened and that have been recorded over the years. So the statistic shows that there was a 27% jump of suicides compared to 2018 which was recorded in 2022. That was the last time the reports came out. So there were 1.71 lakh suicides that were recorded in 2022. So it becomes a really important subject to understand and to know because we may be sitting next to people who probably have maybe even attempted suicide or probably even are contemplating it. So just to quickly reiterate what we looked at, there were two verses that I just brought up basically for us to understand that God is the owner and giver of life. And these verses reiterate that God is our creator and he's the only one who is to decide when and how a person should die. So that's something that we understand and we believe and that's why we believe that there is sanctity to life. Moving ahead we quickly looked at the definition of these three words suicide. It's a death that's caused by injuring oneself with the specific intention to die. A suicide attempt is when someone harms themselves with an intent to die or to end their life but they do not die as a result of their actions and suicidal thoughts or ideations are having thoughts about ending life or feeling that people would be better off without them. So it may mean they are thinking about methods of suicide or making plans on how they could take their own life. We looked also at how before we understand how we can support, what is it? How do we learn about warning signs that we need to understand what are indications of warning signs that people may come up with? So being informed about these warning signs often can help us support people before they attempt a suicide. So just divided into three. In the way that they talk, they may talk about how they're experiencing unbearable pain, they may be talking about how they're a burden to others, that they decide to end their lives, that there isn't any purpose for their life or a sense of just feeling trapped in life. So this is through the language probably that they use. Then you can find us have certain warning signs through their behavior. They may be withdrawing from regular activities, it may be work, it may be social settings, it may be some things that they've always been very involved in. There could be an increase in substance use, either it be alcohol or drugs. They could be actually looking for ways to kill themselves, like maybe searching online for how people die or searching for materials or means on dying. There are other things that you will notice is maybe they sleep too much, sleep too little, the mood seems to be generally altered. They may visit or call people to say their last goodbyes, they may write their will, they may give away their prized possessions, they may close down certain accounts and ensure that it goes to important members of the family or there could be aggression. So these are some behaviors we'd see. We also look at mood. Moods are generally depression or it could be irritability, humiliation or anxiety, irritability, any of these things are what you would find as the warning signs. How do we support? There are certain simple actions that can actually help us to really help someone experience suicidal thoughts and the first one is actually to ask and find out. This is basically to ask whether to know whether the person is in danger of acting on their suicidal feelings and it's perfectly right and good and studied. There is evidence that you need, you can actually ask them because that in itself could protect them. It's a way of how they may be crying out for help. But being sensitive on asking questions. The last time I had put down a couple of questions, you can actually go back to last week's recording and probably find that. The next thing we need to do is to listen and that's the best way to offer support. It's to be with them, not arguing, not minimizing their pain, not offering advice, but just listening and being present. It is when you do that, you're letting the person know that you are there as a support without judgment and you are there to help. Then comes determining. You need to determine how severe these suicidal thoughts are and we spoke about four factors. We said intent, that is the intention that they have to die. They may say, I want to end my life. I have come to that point for decision. The second thing is a plan. They may have created a plan as to how they will do it, where they're going to do it, what they're going to do, what are the kind of things that they have arranged for. That's the second one, plans. The third is means. Means is the access they have to doing this. It may be some kind of a weapon. It may be some kind of a little measure or something that they know they've got all of that ready. Last is the timeline. They have picked a day and a time and a place to do that. Intent, plan, means and timeline is what you will determine when someone may be expressing these thoughts. The next one is to notify. Notify is to really get the support of somebody else, especially let's say you're on a phone call or maybe you're meeting them the first time and you have no background of them to actually enlist the support of a family member. This is one time you can't reach confidentiality because their life is at stake and that's your interest to ensure that they are safe. Notifying somebody who can actually keep them safe or who can help them to get into treatment and of course the one is to keep praying. To let the person know that God cares for them in their situation. It would be good to keep engaged and stay connected with them either through your support of prayer or through finding out ways of how they can get the support that they want. So suicide prevention begins with care. Begins with caring enough for people to know that you notice that something has gone wrong and that's what we actively need to keep focusing on as we figure out how to support. The last one that I quickly went through is how can we as churches prevent suicide? The first thing we discussed is to deal with misconceptions. To understand misconceptions about suicide and faith because sometimes it can misinform those who are actually dealing with suicidal thoughts and people may believe that their depression or what they're going through is a sign of a lack of faith and this can cause secondary guilt especially to those having this condition. So maybe just an advice of just pray or have faith or trust in God more may not be enough because it may just look like an accusation that they aren't doing enough. We understand that even Christians, even believers are not immune to mental health challenges and sometimes there is no guarantee against that depression but it is to help them to tide through that. The second one is to encourage that they get support and one way is that how we can combat the stigma is by encouraging those having depression or any form of anxiety to seek help, to seek help that is appropriate to their needs whether it be medical treatment or whether it be counselling help, whether it be pastoral care, whether it be group support, whatever that is to ensure that they get that support and just to also share that we at Chrysalis which is a part of ABC, we have a list of qualified counsellors, psychiatrists, experts in the city that can be helpful so that's something that as a church we can do and last of all but most important is to bring hope because we as a church are responsible to really show out and demonstrate the love of God to those who are hurting and we can seek out those who are struggling and make that intentional effort to be with them, to listen, to offer that encouragement, to pray them through, to encourage them in the word, to get the kind of support that they need in order for them to really manage their mental health challenges. So these were some of the things that we had discussed last time and now I just like to open it up for further questions. It's over to you Pastor Selina. Thank you very much Jeanne for sharing on this very important topic. The suicidal rates are very, very alarming even in our city in Bangalore it's very alarming to see young children ending their lives and most of us are very genuinely interested in helping people who are going through suicidal thoughts or you know planning to end their lives but we don't feel competent but thank you for sharing those valuable tips that can help us to move ahead. We'll open up this time for any of you who have any questions or you have a case scenario that you would like to present and you want Jeanne to help you how you can take this forward and how you can help the person. You can either type it out in the chat section or you can unmute your mics and ask your questions so the time is opened for all of you. If you have any doubts you want Jeanne to even explain something that you haven't understood you could go ahead. Yes Kofi? Yes sister my question is in case someone is in such a position or suicide and then you show care to that person and the person later on falls in love with you because of the caring that you are showing how do you handle such situation. Okay thank you Kofi. So with what you have shared what I'm supposing is or let's say when a person is attempting suicide they're definitely in a significant emotional pain and sometimes this the situation that you're talking about could probably arise from someone who's had a difficult or a breakup of a relationship and as a result you know when you have stepped in and you've provided that care and support then that attachment comes about. So I think one of the important things especially when we as ministers minister to people my suggestion especially if you're not professionally trained my suggestion is that you hand over the person maybe after your initial conversation of really understanding that they are in a difficult place and you know that there are these thoughts of suicide is to hand them over to a woman. I suppose that you're talking about someone who's a woman who's actually sharing with you a good idea would be to hand them over to someone else who's a lady who's a woman who can actually support and help them especially when they're going through relationship breakdowns the fact that there is someone caring and someone understanding them through the situation are chances for them to form a certain attachment to you. So once you've done the preliminary work once you've understood that a person has suicidal thoughts suicidal ideations or maybe going through some form of depression and anxiety it may be good to release them over to a woman or to a lady to support and help them so we can avoid these kind of issues especially when you may not be professionally trained. So in professional training there are certain signs or certain indications that a therapist or a counselor would be able to pick up if there are these kind of issues and that's what we call as transference they transfer their emotional affections to the therapist and so those are some indications that a therapist or a counselor will be able to understand and you know deal with at that point of time even in professional treatment if that happens if that transference issue happens the the counselor does you know discuss that with the with the counseling and move them on to someone else who can be of help because you see that that's not going to help them that journey of that relationship that the counseling may be having on the counselor is not going to be helpful so in the best interest of the counseling they will be moved released to somebody else. Thank you very much. Thank you Gene. I hope that answered your question Kofi. We'll move on. If you all have any questions any doubts you need more clarity on what Gene has shared you can please feel free to type it out in the chat section or you can unmute your mics and ask your doubts or your questions or you need more clarification you can do so as well. I have a question please. I have read somewhere or somebody told me that if a person is intending to commit suicide they do attempt sometimes at least like once or twice they try to attempt and then they find courage in it is it or so if if if you look at studies it is true that people who have finally attempted suicide have had failed attempts previously there could be either their measures that they that they've used or the the the plan that they've had has has probably not come through so then it is true that they they kind of work through a certain plan. Now for people who have had multiple attempts of suicide there are two things I think we really need to consider is is the fact that there can be a significant mental health challenge which means significant depression substance abuse even even something that we call as a personality disorder right and so this has to be attended to so that's one thing that that when you do see people attempting suicide multiple number of times we may just not be able to leave them and say okay they're okay now they seem all right and let go of them they probably require constant support constant help because because of their coping mechanisms very often if you if you look at certain case studies a lot of people who attempt suicide have extremely poor coping mechanisms and whenever there is whenever there's a stress there's poor frustration tolerance and as a result this is what they think would help them through that a lot of especially with personality disorders people who have personality disorders when they attempt suicide they they haven't really thought through a plan it is just to get rid of the emotional burden or the emotional struggle that they are that they are truly experiencing because suicidal thoughts can be driven by an real overwhelming desire to escape that situation or emotional pain so when they feel suicidal I'm sorry when they feel overwhelmed it distorts their their thinking to the point that they are not thinking straight and it's important for them to realize that these are like in what we would say these are lies that are thrown at them and these these thoughts are entirely irrational so but for them to come to that place they need to really mellow down or subside from their emotional overwhelm and that's why for those who have multiple attempts you do they they require regular constant help you know in way of support thank you jean I hope that answered your question Vivek yes please thank you thank you last week we had linden who wanted to ask a question and he's here on the call and we didn't have time to hear you out linden so would you like to ask your question okay in the meantime we'll move on to zealotoli we'll wait for linden to maybe unmute and ask or type it in the chat section zealotoli what's our question is can you share some practical ways to reach out to a person who has lost hope and shows suicidal tendencies in his or her conversation especially if that person is a family member and doesn't value a person who wants to help all right thank you zealotoli if you had been through the presentation there was some some pointers that we bought up I'll just probably quickly highlight a few I'm taking to cognizance that you said doesn't value a person who wants to help so what I see is you may want you may desire to help the person but they don't value you but then you have seen that there is probably a tendency I still think it is worth the while if you do the the following things that we're going to discuss about but if that doesn't help enlist the support of some other family member that may be closer to the close to the person you know if they if they value somebody else or value listening to them maybe enlist that support but whether it's you or whether it's the the other family member the first and foremost thing is to really show that you care and you you're concerned and if you have noticed that they have this this tendency as we as we had spoken about ask ask them where they are at what is going on right now in their lives and certain questions as we as I had spoken about the last time you can you can you can actually ask do you I've noticed that you know you've been really low over the last couple of weeks couple of days is there something that you'd like to like to share with me do you do you feel like you you've given up have there been thoughts of dying have there been thoughts of hurting yourself even asking have you even thought about suicide and or if they do say yes then you go about asking how have how have you thought of doing it have you thought of how and when you're going to do it do you have any access to those weapons or to the means that you're going to harm yourself so it's important to ask as as they're talking and even as they share it's important to take them seriously remember that even when they're sharing whatever they're going through you I think for us we feel under the pressure of solving their problems but you don't have to be under that pressure just offering support and encouragement to talk to them about how they're feeling so the first is just to ask and being a listener when you're listening you're not you're not side stepping whatever they're sharing with you you're you're there completely focused on what they what they have now the next thing is even if if you were there last week I played a clip about you know a man who who actually spoke about what really helped him and in that clip he said it's not about throwing guilt which means not saying hey you have a family you have young children you know or or you're you know this is what you believe in this is your faith actually not throwing that guilt on them can be really really helpful at that point of time just to step aside from that to just being in a place of just listening and being alongside with them the fourth thing that you would need to do especially if you know if you do feel that there is a tendency that they could harm themselves is to ensure that you get the support of someone in that home so that any kind of measures to kill themselves like knives or or toilet cleaners any kind of dangerous material that's there needs to be taken away and you know a close watch over them and supporting them to get them into treatment so even actually booking an appointment with the counselor going alongside with them to a counselor all of this are definite you know active indications that show that you care maybe just following up with them and asking them how they're doing you know just spending some time just to ensure that they're moving away from where they're at so these are I know these sound really simple but these can be extremely effective for someone who is in such emotional overwhelm thank you gene did that help sell it only gene shared okay thank you anyone else linden martin do you like to ask your question which you had last week or is it already answered anyone else would like to ask any questions with doubts you have clarity on what was shared pasta selena no one has a question maybe i'd like to put for the question to all the students because i think it just helps us to think this is this is probably let's say you you know somebody you know has committed suicide but you're dealing with the family you're dealing with the pain that they're going through the kind of questions that they may have so just thoughts on what do you sense or what do you think you would do if you were in a situation like this and i'm and i'm sure maybe some of you have already faced that but it's an important question to ask what about survivors of those who've committed who attempted and committed suicide you know so how do we what do we do what are best things that we can do so i'm actually going to bring up the question to you all so that you just hear some thoughts and some ideas thank you gene very relevant question so we'll open it up to any of you would like to share if you had come face this kind of a scenario and what did you do what any of our faculties can share their thoughts hi gene hi morning everyone i just had one thing i think we just need to see the family would be under tremendous guilt i think thinking that they've not done enough or they should have you know should have could have all those kind of scenarios there might be a lot of guilt so i think first thing to do would be to to address that i am not sure how sufficiently we can do that but i think the first thing would be to kind of address that that's what comes comes to my mind yeah absolutely relevant master jay kumar anyone else would like to share uh yes pasta salina uh so gene uh what pasta jay kumar shared is good because they might have a lot of questions it would be good to address those questions but also i'm thinking maybe just being with them uh and just being a support and you know at times when we also may not know what to say to just be there and listen and help could could help could could be a blessing to them yeah thank you thank you pasta Nancy uh i have a suggestion that um you know they are going through so much uh sadness and that they have not done enough and all but also talking to them we could get uh like how this happened and how for ourselves to learn from them to prevent for other suicide cases you know just getting like like talking to them and getting like information to avoid in other circumstances yeah so um it's actually i think one of the important things that you said is uh um you know talk getting them to talk which is one of the most important things when someone is in grief is to give them the space to share and you may hear them sharing the same thing over and over and over again they may have a lot of uh what ifs but you know what if i had done that what if i had done this um if only i had done this if only that you know you will hear that what if if only a lot of lot of times so to help them uh to grieve uh and to come in in knowledge of these emotions grief um uh guilt uh they take on blame you know they take on a whole sort of a whole lot of blame because they didn't see it coming so just allowing them to talk actually really is helpful um yeah we may not talk to them with the intention to have a learning experience for us maybe not at that time maybe yes as a reflective thing is something we can look at but having that conversation just allowing them to really just openly share that grief and that pain the guilt all of that is very helpful and not having to answer them you know when they're saying if only i had done this or what if i had done that maybe saying you know you did the best you can or you did that may not cut it it doesn't seem um uh supportive and empathetic at that time it's just silence that probably can really work through all of this and you know like like master nancy said staying with them through it's journey uh that in that healing with them through it because they may have multiple questions that will keep coming up and it's perfectly okay to say you know i i don't know i'm i'm not sure of that of what that is but let's discover that together let's let's keep talking or let's go and talk to somebody else to see if we can get or let's look back into scripture to see what we can find so journeying with them through that is a good thing and you don't need to know everything as a counselor you don't need to know all the answers it's just a problem that you're there in that relationship with them thank you pastor jay kumar and pastor nancy and to get through for sharing uh gene i i don't know if this is uh right but i think they would also be facing a lot of shame uh because you know people around them will be asking a lot of questions so they would want to avoid people because they want to avoid them asking all uh questions which they have to answer which again will bring about that whole guilt and you know that they were not competent enough to handle uh the person and take care of them so i think that's another area that we can help them out absolutely yes thank you so lubeca says i will invite a counselor friend to talk to the family and also be around to listen and learn i do all this in fear of causing more harm than good thank you lubeca asapu raj has a question gene can we go on to asapu's question okay is that is it important to ask those questions like how they wanted to commit suicide when and where and how uh to how will it help us deal with the issue uh will not sorry okay so he's basically saying you know should we ask the person who's contemplating suicide when where and how you know will it just when we ask those questions it'll help the person deal with the issue or you know will it not give them more ideas and how to commit suicide when we ask those questions so that is asapu's query yeah thank you asapu it's a very relevant question because it's the fear of most people that if i were to ask are you considering suicide are you what means are you using then you've kind of reiterated their plan but that isn't true that's that's the common fear we may have but that isn't true evidence does show that uh you know especially when people are in that phase they are looking for someone to understand someone to help and suicide an attempt to suicide is a cry for help so when someone actually asks them they i think in my practice over the years there has never been a time when someone has not um has not shared what they are going through they actually tell you you know they they will they will bring about uh their plan that is if they have a plan they will bring about it as you keep asking them because as i said it's an indication that showing them that there is someone who cares enough for them to know that something is seriously wrong and that's why you're asking those questions so um you it is not true that they will have more means or more ways or more ideas to commit suicide when you talk to them about it when you're straightforward and sharing that they have a space where they can emotionally offload and that's what you're giving them you're giving them an opening to emotionally offload you're showing them that you are there to care you're showing them that you are there to support and help them through this that they are important enough for you to work this issue or this challenge with them i've i've always noted that this one line you're really important to me at this time just that much for them to hear that from somebody that someone someone sees them as important is enough for them to have you know a complete not not a complete withdrawal of these thoughts but at least a release at that point of time and yes after you do that you have to have an action plan right work along with them to have an action plan so sometimes what i do is i kind of have a like a contract i say you know um would you would you would you stay with me and for the next 24 hours can we can can you just ensure that you drop me a message every one hour or if i don't hear from you can i drop you a message so i kind of build little contracts with them to to tide them over outside of that emotional pain because once that subsides then you're in a place to probably get them the real support and help that they need so you need a larger plan it's just not asking them the questions and maybe leaving them like that but either putting them to support with someone or you staying in as a support for a for a for a period of time till you know that the danger is passed and then you can actually get them some support and help so um that's a fear okay so it is not true that if you ask they will be more challenged or they will have better ideas to come outside i hope i hope we are able to pick that uh pick that up pick that perspective thank you gene uh did that help answer your uh question asapu thank you uh anyone else has any more questions you want to share anything please feel free to unmute or post it in the chat section i just have a quick question um now how do we develop a pre-emptive you know environment maybe at home i was thinking about a home scenario where there could be teenagers growing up and you know there's a lot of you know content out there even suicide is suggested as a fantasy thing and stepping into another world kind of thing so um so how do we build uh like a protective pre-emptive kind of environment any thoughts on that particularly with regard to suicide thanks thank you so um if you're looking at um and i'd like to bring it back to a home context um and it's so relevant what you asked because if you look at young adolescents uh at this point you know in our in our time right now um every home or most homes i'm sorry not every most homes you would have um young adults adolescents at least having spoken of a death wish at some point of time um because of number one the challenges that they go through the changes that they go through and the kind of pressure that is and and like you said Pasu Jaikumal the kind of content content that is available for them um some some factors the first and foremost thing is yes openness to provide an environment where um there is open sharing where there is emotional vulnerability that children parents can actually share about their personal journeys of how um of what is going on in their lives so that and how from parents how they have dealt with it or how they are finding ways to cope with it so that open environment actually helps children or adolescents to see that there is a space or there is a parent who is there to understand my situation the second is um having conversations about these important things like like drug abuse depression anxiety suicide self harm uh actually opening up conversations about it because you're it's done in a protective environment because you know if uh in schools you will hear kids um Shabastra Selina will be able to collaborate this you will hear kids talking with each other about how many times they've actually cut themselves you know self-harmed superficial cuts that that's what they're talking about or they will be they will bring knives or they will bring blades to the school to actually show their friends what they like what they've used so open conversations about it at home um to to really debunk you know the the the glorification of something like that of what what it means to self harm really can help because that's what when you when you do see it all all the adolescents come to counselors or to therapists the first thing that they say is i'm scared to talk about this to um to my to my uh to my parents i'm scared to because you know how are they going to you're going to take it how are they going to say it so just having those open conversations is uh is a huge relief for for people like that the next is to note signs of depression now specifically especially in young adolescents the rate of depression and anxiety has picked up so much um over the years again because of the kind of influences that are there so really knowing the first signs of of depression and getting them the support and the help that they need can again reduce this uh incidence of some sort thank you gene thank you pastor jay kumar uh for your question uh did that help answer your question pastor jay kumar okay thank you asapu has a good question again if a believer commits suicide and dies will they go to heaven yeah i can i open it up to the other pastors yes i'll just i just add a line and then i will ask you know any of the other pastors to support um so in the way that i see it and i hope and i'm sure the pastors can help is um god's grace and mercy is beyond our understanding and uh you know and and what and it is it's unsearchable that's what it says we believe that the atonement of christ has covered all our sins and every mistake that we've we may have committed we read that he proves uh he proves where it says he offered that single sacrifice um for our sins for for all time so uh which which includes all all of our sins so if we believe that christ sacrifices sacrifice covers our sin this uh i believe that the sin of uh digging one's life may be not very different from from other sin so we have been redeemed by god and have been forgiven for our sins and assures us even in roman said assures us that nothing can separate us from the love of god that is in christ jesus so that's how i've understood it but i'd like to open it up for the rest of the pastors to uh to comment thank you gene uh just open it up for the other faculty they like to share and your father faculty would like to share on this sanjay do you want to share on this question or is you have another question yes pastor i just wanted to add to a supposed brother a supposed question because i had something similar to his question uh so what i had learned many years ago was that i might be wrong i just needed clarification on this that committing suicide is probably the unpardonable sin or it's also so safe with the blasphemy of the holy spirit and it's something really serious so could anyone throw light on this i might be wrong that's all i want to ask thank you sanjay so you're just adding on to asapu's question whether suicide is an unpardonable sin and sorry pastashish please go ahead can i i'll try to set you things very quickly see in the eyes of god any sin has to be punished you know whether it's a lie or whether it's a murder whether it's and in the eyes of god for example hate is equal to murder in our minds we think oh murder you've killed a person but in the eyes of god hate hating a person is equivalent to murder so just think about a scenario where a believer just you know seconds before his death has hate in his heart towards somebody and then he dies he doesn't have an opportunity to repent of that hate so we ask the question will he go to heaven or will he go to hell because hey he had hate in his heart which is equivalent to murder he didn't have he didn't repent because the next minute he had a heart attack or something he died will he go to heaven i have and this is where i agree with what jean said there you know it's it's god's grace we are saved by grace through faith and at that instant just because i believe i had hate in his heart or lust in his heart and didn't repent at that moment but died the next instant doesn't mean they're going to spend eternity in hell they are forgiven because of the blood of jesus and so you know just thinking logically but that same reason a person who commits suicide yes there is a lot of pre-meditation that goes into it and the planning and all that and it's actually in many times maybe it's very complex like we've been listening there is fear and so on there's unbelief all of those kinds of things that people use all of that to say well you know this is an unpardonable sin like sanjay mentioned but really uh i can obviously the person never had a moment to repent of it they they committed suicide into their life so they didn't have even think about saying god i'm sorry or whatever uh so the question is if this person was a believer this person is saved by grace yes in that moment they ended their life in this very more confused difficult emotional spiritual state they didn't repent but does that mean they will not be saved so we think about the other scenarios you know if there was hate there was lust if there was some others and that a believer did not repent of before dying would they be saved our answer is yes and therefore you know in that same large that same process this is my thought that yeah the person will be saved even though they did something at that moment that you know that ended their natural life it's very complex a lot of things emotions going on spiritual state etc but because if they believe they trust in Jesus as their savior that's where you know the grace of God comes so this is my thought i know you know there's like real chapter in verse we can say if God commits suicide now shall be forgiven it's not chapter in verse but it's just my thought thank you pasashish thank you gene for sharing as well and thank you asapu for asking the question i hope it answered your question gene thank you so much we appreciate you taking the time to do back to back sessions just shows your passion that you have to help people and the council thank you so much for sharing from your expertise we'll end the call here thank you all for joining the call have a blessed day thank you everyone