 Do you think the future of Google is going to get impacted by the rise of chat GBT and Bing and it will eventually get replaced by them? What's your thought? And I think, you know, in many ways, Google is an AI first company and has been working on these things for a long time. So I'm sure they have a role to play. I think you'll also see lots of new companies, you know, open AI and others to, you know, enter this space. And I also think like there's going to be a ton of just unknowns and things that go wrong and, you know, automation run amok kind of thing. Hey guys, this is Dr. Nancy Lee, a direct product featured in Forbes that helped 100 people land their dream PM job offer in fan companies, a unicorn startup, and continue getting promoted as a product leader. In this channel, we talk about tech trends and free product management training. Like and subscribe and check out our new video every Tuesday. I'm very excited to have our guest today, Robert Latham. And it's such an honor to bring Rob on our show because Rob has a very amazing journey. He currently is a VP of product at Google and also part leader at Meta, also started two successful product in the past. And Rob, how are you doing? Welcome to the show. Yeah, thanks for having me doing really well. I've been enjoying some time, some vacation recently. And yeah, just really excited to share some thoughts with you and the audience here. Awesome. So Rob, let me ask you a quick question. Where are you based right now? I'm in Austin, Texas. So I lived in the Bay Area for quite a while and then actually moved to Boulder and moved back to the Bay Area, then moved to Austin at the end of 2019. So I've been here for a few years now. This is awesome. He actually moved before the booming pandemic. Just before, yes. And was traveling back and forth to the Bay Area and had, you know, a desk in, at Facebook at the time, had a desk in Menlo Parac, had a desk in Austin. I got all my stuff back from Austin, by the way, when I left the company. I'm still waiting for my stuff from Menlo Park, funnily enough. I see. Awesome. Given you had such amazing journey in different companies and also move across different places and making your own personal and career choice, do you want to give us a quick overview of your background? Sure. Yeah. Just going, going backwards, I've, you know, been in big tech companies the last six years, the last two years with Google working in the central privacy and security team. And then before that, I ran the product team for a group at Facebook, now Meta, called Business Integrity. So it was, you know, those are kind of my first big tech company roles the last six years. And then before that, I started two different companies. One was actually an ad blocking company. We sold the technology before I joined Facebook. And then before that, built one of the largest ads API partners to companies like Facebook and Twitter and LinkedIn. We started in display advertising, but then we pivoted to social media ads. We sold that business in 2013. For that, you know, it worked at a few different places. I worked at LinkedIn for a little while, which is interesting in the very early days when we had like 40 people at the company. Like you, I also grew up and moved to the U.S., grew up overseas and moved to the U.S., you know, went to college in the U.S., etc. So yeah, it's been, it's been a journey, but yeah, very, very glad to be here. Awesome. Another immigrant story. So let me ask you Rob, where are you original from? I grew up in South Africa. Wow, this is beautiful. It's always a place I want to visit. Actually, I have a student currently is in Nigeria and an answer in Kenya. It's like very global. It's amazing. Great to see lots of people just creating amazing career and cross cultures, cross companies as well. We're leading to our today's main topic regarding building trust in large and small and different sizes of organizations because we believe that culture differences and also even within the large organization that different people from very different perspective, the trust is actually very important for product managers to build. And actually I look up online, actually 55% of the business owners feel like having trust is one of the most important core value of the success of their company. And it's crazy. And also from product management perspective, we are also building trust among different stakeholders. And therefore today I want to hear from your perspective regarding you have been working in like 40 people LinkedIn team when they started and also all the way to manage your own large organization in Google and matter as a VP of product. Can you share with us regarding why trust is so important in all sizes of companies from product perspective? Yeah, absolutely. But I think the product manager has a pretty unique role and it's kind of like, you know, there's lots of different takes on how to be a good product manager and what it actually means. And but often you're kind of someone on my team once described it as you're the glue that's holding a lot of things together. And so, you know, glue is something that you really have to trust, or maybe it's zip ties or something else. But it's something that kind of needs to bind things together and in itself, you know, people need to trust that you can help facilitate things. I think also that's like not really the case. And we can talk more about why I don't think that's the case. But I think there's also a lot of misperception about the role of product management. I think there's a lot of people who actually, I actually used to see this when people would want to transfer to become a product manager from another discipline. Often their understanding of what a PM does was different than the reality. And I think once they learn the reality, some of them are like, no, I actually don't want to do that job. I don't want to be meetings all day. So I think trust is really important because, you know, like a lot of other things as well, the product managers facilitating a lot of things. And so to be a good facilitator, I think you need to be someone that is trustworthy and someone that can, you know, help bring people together. Awesome. So Rob, I do want to dive deeper a little bit regarding the CEO product. You think you have a different opinion regarding the CEO product. So what's in reality? What product manager is doing? If we are not the CEO, are we the COO or CMO? So tell us more. Well, I've been a CEO and a COO and, you know, I've had some of these jobs. But I think the, you know, I think of one of the things I think of a product manager is doing is, you know, being responsive. This is again, these are not my words, but, you know, learning from others originally. So, you know, product managers is responsible for high quality of decisions that are made about the product, right? So, you know, I think it's in some cases, depending on the size of the team and the situation, you know, you're making some decisions or the way in which you're framing already is directing things a certain way. In some ways, a CEO, a good CEO, I think often is a facilitator, but the difference with a CEO, I think, having been one is at the end of the day, when someone has to make a decision, you know, and no one else has made the decision, you're making the decision, you know, the other thing that happens is if, you know, your AWS instances go down at 2 a.m. in the morning, you know, you and maybe the CTO are the ones, you know, getting on the phone, you know, et cetera, like you're the last line of whatever. I think the PM sometimes has that role, but really a lot more. It's like helping within the structure of whatever that organization, facilitating decision making and making sure those decisions are of high quality. Love it. When you emphasize on the facilitating part, I think at the lead to the challenges we're talking about regarding building trust, can you tell us why it's so challenging and crucial? We talked about crucial is important. Why is so hard to actually building trust and facilitate and bring everyone on the same page as a product manager? Yeah, I think a lot of times people are coming from different perspectives and different history with PMs. You know, I think it was Lenny Richesky recently was saying something about, you know, some people have experiences of PMs that aren't good PMs. And so, you know, you may have different, everyone's coming from a different background for perspective. Some people have been in organizations where there is no PM function. So, you know, you have to kind of meet people where they're at. The other thing I've also seen is, for example, with a lot of, you know, smaller organizations, you have engineering managers taking on that role of essentially some of the things that a PM would do, you know, and there hasn't been a PM function, you're creating one. And then, you know, some of the things, those things are things that an engineering manager wants to continue to do what they enjoy doing. So, you also, depending on where your organization is, you're actually, like, growing into certain things and you're defining roles and creating clarity. And so, you know, you need to get to know and spend time on the relationships in order to be able to facilitate the creation of that clarity in order to be able to also create swim lanes for people so they're not running into each other. You know, one of the things I find actually very useful in this is also to, you know, create leadership groups where it's multiple different functions that are sitting at the same table. So, you know, because it can sometimes feel like PM is telling other functions what to do. And in some cases, it's kind of true, but the reality is that it's much more, it's much better if it's a collaborative atmosphere and people are sitting at the same table. They're bringing different perspectives, you know, and they're kind of working together in that way. This is awesome. So, Rob, can you give up something juicy, which is a Google or META, you can pick any of the large companies from their perspective. What's in real life, the challenges you guys facing using that real life example, you can remove anything confidential. We just want to see from like leading tech perspective, right? Because I would imagine there's so many different teams in Google and it sounds easy to bring people on the same table, but when you actually execute it, you will face real life challenges. Can you give us some insider secret regarding like using Google or META as an example? What does it look like to work with others and you kind of push back you had when you implement the building trust strategies? Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think building trust, it's not just within the phone, your problem directly. It's also when in any of these companies, when you're trying to solve a problem, you're in some cases, you create other problems or you learn that there's other confounding issues. So I spent a lot of time working in the integrity or trust and safety space at META specifically. And so there, there's always these concerns where you're like, okay, we're going to, you know, implement this policy change that's going to, that's meant to stop this particular thing what we think is bad. But obviously the detection of things is not perfect and you kind of have these concentric circles of, you know, other folks who are impacted. So what ends up happening is it's customers getting impacted, but it's also other teams getting impacted. So they may not be able to ship something, you know, they have to work with partners to implement new, you know, new things that again create like these, these other effects. I think there's always these tradeoffs that you have to help manage across different teams. So it's not just across functions working on your thing, that's one aspect of this kind of cross functional leadership and value that you're helping to create. But it's also across different teams who are seeing different sides of the same, the same thing. So I think one of the things we like to do, I know it, for example, at META, one of the things we would try to do is, you know, gain alignment, for example, through sharing metrics. So we'd say, okay, this team is going to ship this thing. And we want to set up some guardrail. So let's make sure that this particular metric that we agree on, it doesn't go outside of this range. If it does, then let's have a discussion, etc. So a lot of times that those things were pretty, you know, manual hands-on, like, okay, we're like looking at the data every day, and we're having reviews and whatever, or every, every month, we might have a review about it. But then, you know, as you kind of instrument those things in your product, you can actually make it more automated. So it's just really like, not really a problem until, you know, you get some notifications like, okay, the, you know, this particular rate is dropping below this threshold. Let's, you know, go and have a discussion about it. So I think, you know, one thing is like different teams and different functions of different incentives. And so acknowledging that coming up with things that cut across those and perhaps allow you to align those incentives, metrics being one way of potentially doing that, turn out to be pretty useful. Because then also it takes some of the, it takes some of that personal adversarial nature of it away because it says, look, we've agreed in advance on this metric. So metric goes south, we'll talk about it. It's not really about, you know, you say this or I say that. Exactly. So no wonder. So like all the big tech companies and more tours, we are a data-driven company. And even for people currently interviewing with Meta, or when they were hiring interviewing with Meta, they asked lots of like prime metrics questions. So basically, you guys are using metric drive. The alignment was in different teams. Rob, I do have something real life challenge. Maybe you can help me out and regarding building trust in the remote environment, we frequently find out those kinds of trust is harder when it's in a remote environment. When we are in person, it's easy to have some coffee. I think it's, it's more easier to build as a human dynamic. Nowadays is remote. Do you have specific strategies to build trust and alignment in a remote environment in both like larger companies and small companies? Yeah. So many, many years ago, more than a decade ago, we had this thing where we had a bunch of, so my company was like 40 people and we had a bunch of people who were remote in Chicago and New York and other places. So we were mainly in the Bay Area. What I did is I said, okay, for this whole hands, we're all going to dial in from our computers. This was way before COVID and everyone was used to like, you know, zoom and things like that. Like people looked at me like I was really crazy because I was like, I want everyone to be on an equal footing to dial into the discussion. And so because it's the dynamics will be different. So we, we did that one time. It was like, people were like, okay, this is kind of weird. But I do think you need to kind of think about ways in which to put people on an equal footing in these remote settings, you know, you know, a couple of things I've done with various teams is like move things around or have like a, you know, again, depending where your teams are, if they're in Europe and if you have teams in Europe and Asia, like it's pretty challenging to get something that works for everyone. So alternating different times for things, you know, recording meetings, things like that. So people can kind of catch up on their own schedule. Those are all like useful things, sometimes not obvious, but useful things for remote work. Having something that a team can own more fully if they're in a remote location is useful. So that way they don't have these and like high coordination costs and, you know, very expensive kind of cross time zone bandwidth stuff. What do you mean, have people like high cross footing? Can you elaborate more? So, yeah, so like as an example, if, you know, let's say that I have a product and I have a team in London and I have a team in the Bay Area and they have to talk, they have to like talk about different specs like several times a day, like there's only so much of a window where that's easy. However, if it's something where they can go away for like two weeks and do a sprint and you know, then come back and then, you know, they don't have to like align and chat necessarily every single day. Like I think they can more fully own a particular feature or something like that. That's helpful. To your point, I don't think there's really any way to get around. You just have to meet people in person from time to time. So, you know, very targeted summits where you're talking about something for a few days can be very useful. You know, there is a downside of some of this stuff which is like I've also instances where people aren't super sensitive to the time of year. Like again, like also it's not just about in your area, like if say you're coordinating with people in Europe and they tend to take vacation, you know, at a certain time of the year. A lot of vacations, yeah. Yeah, but you have to just be sensitive to those things because you're then going to actually, you know, in trying to make things better, you're going to make things worse because people will say, oh, well, they're out of touch with the way things are done over here, et cetera. You know, I think even just, you know, we've seen more and more people being somewhat local to each other or like within a few hours of each other, maybe even in the same time zone of being remote. I mean, that's also, you still need to spend time getting to know each other in person in those settings too. So I think that's really important. And then I think just, you know, always listening and creating opportunities for feedback. We create these opportunities to try to listen to feedback, but I think sometimes, you know, we can do even more than that to hear what people are saying and to, you know, meet them, like I said, meet them where they're at. I love that. Hey, Rob, I do want to discuss in depth regarding the feedback systems. So currently I know for like different conflicts on Amazon has 360 feedback. I heard it's very stressful. You have people under you, like everybody needs to like you or you're in danger. Or in other big tech companies, they have like annual performance review. How the feedback system can be implemented within your team and also cross, like cross functionally. I personally believe that if we implement cross functionally, you didn't know how to say it better because their interests are not aligned for some cases. So can you, can you shine some lights on that? Yeah. So I think, I think the, the P zero on, on feedback, I think is people need to see that you take action on feedback. So I think the quality of feedback goes up the more, in my opinion, in my experience, the more people see that it actually makes a difference. And it's not just, Oh, we heard your feedback about X, but like if X is never going to change, that's, you know, not great. So I think that's, that's the main thing to start with, but you have to kind of ask the question lots of different ways. You can't also just assume, Hey, I did the survey once or twice a year. And now, you know, this is the full set of feedback. There's always stuff that isn't set. I generally think you have to facilitate mechanisms for this. People are going to talk and going to say stuff regardless. And so I think you just need to give them ways to do it in such a way that you're at least aware of these things. But again, I come back to what I said before is like, you need to figure out how you can make the experience for people better. I think ultimately, a lot of these companies, you know, as knowledge workers, you know, your employees and your, your team is your biggest asset, and you really have to figure out how to make them, you know, happier, more efficient. And again, to the thing you said earlier at the top, which was, you know, give them the ability to have balance in their lives so that they actually are excited to do the work that they're, that they're working on. Exactly. So specifically, how would you filter the feedback that's not constructive? For example, in our last episode, I talked to the senior director of product growth at Stash and Maria. So Maria mentioned something very interesting. She said she, she's open to feedback, but sometimes the feedback is hard to implement or she doesn't know how exactly to change it. Because one of the feedback she received is that you're too straightforward, Maria. You say, whatever you say, say it to others' face. That's too straightforward. Or sometimes we'll be like, Hey, Maria, your sentence structure too long. So she, she came from Latin America. So the way Spanish, the words, construction, it's just longer than English. So she just felt like it's me speaking directly is my personality. How do I actually change who I am? So there's like balance out there. So what do you think? And regarding implementing those feedback and some feedback may not be as constructed as you wish. Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes it's not right. So somebody, you just have to kind of take some of that into into account. One of the things I found useful is like, sometimes you need help from folks to gather feedback about things you could do better. So a great example was my first manager at Facebook, you know, she gathered a bunch of a bunch of feedback from my directs and skip levels. And like, she was able to get some insights that I wouldn't have gotten if I try to ask them directly. And then I was able to act on those things. And again, you're always going to hear sometimes things where it's like this, you know, like you said, something non-constructive that you can't really address or it's like, or something that you think is actually just part of, you know, who you are. And so not all feedback is needs to be acted on. I think that's the other thing to take into account is like, sometimes people are upset or, you know, they have had certain experiences or so on, you need to kind of take everything with and sometimes it's really good to like bounce the feedback off of other people. So I find a peer have a mentor be like, look, I heard this thing. I feel like this is valid. I feel like this, I'm not so sure about this. What do you think? And then also, sometimes playing the feedback back to people, other people gives them permission to give you the feedback as well. So you'll learn some new things. So I think feedback is something you use as a tool, and you kind of then also like anything, I think it's content that you can use in different ways. And again, obviously not necessarily like saying, hey, John said this thing about me because maybe it's inappropriate to say who said it. But I said, you could go back to someone and say, I heard this thing from a couple of people on my team. Do you think, how do you think I could address this? What have you done? Have you seen examples, especially if it's a mentor or someone you trust, who's going to be very, you know, open and frank with you? I think that's also great. You can use the feedback in a few different ways. Yeah, exactly. I love this. One last question to you, Rob regarding feedback, you mentioned earlier that some company do it like annually or quarterly, whatever. What do you think is the best way to open the door and the free in terms of the frequency to receive feedback? How often do that? Yeah, I think it depends like what situation you are to the point you made earlier, which is like sometimes people who are new to a team are more willing and open to give feedback. I had one person on my team who gave who did like a 100 day report of how things were going. It was really useful. There's some really useful insights. I think it really depends on kind of where the team and where you're at. At one point, I did a thing where so, you know, a lot of these companies like Facebook, Google and others have pulse kind of things that they do. It's like an annual by annual survey that they do across the company. And so actually, I, you know, I was, we were growing very quickly, my team at Facebook meta. And I felt like there were some things that were going well, some things weren't. So I actually created like a mini monthly, like pulse survey that I just sent out anonymous. I asked people to comment anonymously or not. And you know, that was actually really useful, but I had a short life though, because we kind of moved through those issues. It didn't feel like we needed to keep doing that. Sometimes it'll feel burdensome. We've all been in these situations where we're like, keep getting asked to give feedback and it gets like a bit much and then it kind of annoys you. So you kind of got to calibrate it carefully. And sometimes when things are, you know, in a, in a more nascent or uncertain state, you may want more feedback, but you also may choose to ask for the feedback differently or, you know, may ask for it incidentally. So it doesn't seem like, you know, you're overly worried about stuff that again, this is like, again, like we said, tricky. But I think you're going to have to look at it as, you know, different times and places for different ways of gathering information about what's going well and what's not working. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I think this is is like true definition of leaders understanding how to fix problem actually on your mistakes as well. And I bet you have gone through a lot of this when you run startups and bigger companies as well. So Rob, let's ask more strategic pro strategy question. And we talk about people like feedback and trust and organizing different teams. Now, as we all know, the tech industry has been interrupted by AI. Do you think, and also like being is the number one most recent download search engine recently because chat GBT integration, different things. Do you think the future of Google is going to get impacted by the rise of chat GBT and being and it will eventually get replaced by them? What's your thought? Yeah, look, I think, I think everyone is going to Google included as to take, you have to pay attention to the stuff. And I think, you know, in many ways, Google is an AI first company and has been working on these things for a long time. So I'm sure they have a role to play, you know, in this. I think you'll also see lots of new companies, you know, open AI and others to, you know, enter this space and to figure out how to make this stuff work. I think there's also, I mean, if you've seen the chat GBT plugins, I think there's also a role for other companies to play where they're bringing new integrations, ways to use information. I also think like there's going to be a ton of just unknowns and things that go wrong and, you know, automation run amok kind of thing. You know, like, I know you can use the chat GBT plugin, for example, to like queue up emails. And, you know, I just saw a funny cartoon yesterday, I tweeted it yesterday, what was like, you know, where someone was like, Oh, I can just take this one, you know, this one bullet and turn it into a whole email. Thanks to AI and the other person was well, I can take this whole email and condense it to one bullet point so that I can print pretend like I read it. So I think you're going to see some really interesting overlaps in how this stuff works and how people use it. But ultimately, I think these things are tools. They're going to have a lot of disruption in certain areas, certain parts of certain industries and certain parts of the business. You know, I still think there's a lot of things where you will not be able to condense the answer down to like, you know, a nice paragraph or two of text, you're going to have to search and iterate and go through and look at stuff and take multiple sources into account. So, you know, I assume that these companies will figure out ways to create different experiences around these tools, whether that's a different new search experience or, you know, different ways of interacting with other tools like email or other things. Yeah, exactly. So do you think the trend of the industry in the AI space is going to be like similar to the original booming of Web3? So all like there's a foundation of like Ethereum network and there's so many different kind of like chance people building on top of Ethereum. And now this like downside of downturn of the Web3 industry was because people realized that not all the protocols are very necessary. And do you think this will be similar trend to the AI space right now? We're on the rise, people building different apps on top of AI. Do you think eventually we'll settle down using only one best model? Could be chat GBT or different things? Oh, by the way, Google has its own bar. You have like AI thing for bar. Do you think eventually we'll settle down on one best model that will just synchronize the whole world as a foundation? And then you build small things on top of that? Or there will be several like bars, chat GBT and AI engine, different things running in parallel. So what's your prediction of the industry? Yeah, I'm sure I think there'll be there'll be a few like I don't think there's gonna be thousands. There'll be like lots of like sub models and enhancements and plugins and things on all of these. But I do think that it's probably gonna be you know, a bunch of network effects and probably a small number of folks who run the underlying models. You know, I think it's hard to predict how this stuff is gonna go. I've been playing around a lot, especially with chat GBT and it's really interesting and you know, it's gotten a lot better even just the last few months. And so I'm sure we're going to see a ton of stuff happen here. You know, I had a lot of experience, as I mentioned before, working as an API partner with some of these big companies, right? So if I put that lens on things, I think the hard thing here is figuring out how to, you know, build a successful scale that business on top of someone else's models and tech technology. So I think you're gonna have to look at things like, well, do we have like unique training data that we have a version that builds on top of the stuff and this data is proprietary and whatever, that's going to be very rare. But I think there'll be those cases. I think there's going to be, you know, people who monetize stuff in a very special way. There's going to be people and companies who are able to bring things into real world applications that, you know, require bits and atoms to work together. So I think there's going to be like interesting stuff we can't even really conceive of yet. But I do think there is this question of, you know, are you just an API partner of one of these models in one of these companies? Are you actually creating durable value yourself? And, you know, frankly, like, this is difficult. Like a lot of companies in the space I was in and it kind of adds API business, you know, they try it and we're not able to build their own, you know, long term sustainable business on top of someone else's stuff. So I think it will be challenging. Perfect. So Rob, one of the most asked questions today is how can people become an AI product manager? So what's your advice to them? Because it's so hot right now. So what's your advice? Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, you know, teams I've worked on have done a lot of AI stuff, you know, kind of machine learning, computer vision related stuff, image recognition and so on. So I think, you know, working on some of those kinds of basics and things that are like, you know, I like, in general, I like the, I guess I would say I like the unsexy side of sexy technology. So specific example, you know, we were competing for PhDs in ML and AI related disciplines. When we were doing kind of image recognition for figuring out if, you know, people are trying to put porn in ads, we were competing with people trying to, you wanted to build filters for Snapchat or Facebook or whatever, you know, real time computer vision applications. And so I think, again, like if you're, you know, if you're thinking about some of that stuff, I'd say look at some of the things, maybe the unsexy side or the fundamentals of the baseline, the basics and learn those. That's always a good thing to, you know, to, you know, that's one way to kind of get up to speed on something in a way that maybe isn't as might be harder, less hard to get into than if you're trying to go work at the hottest new startup that's doing some of the stuff. Again, you should try that too. But the reality is a lot of these fundamentals, I think will stand people in good stead if they learn them and they understand them deeply. Exactly. All come from the foundations and fundamentals. And then you can move on to be the larger tech, smaller tech and totally up to your career choice. So one last question to you, Rob, is that what's your opinion regarding investing like gross mindset investing in themselves? And I think it's kind of new concept. Lots of people think about investing in stock market or buying some Bitcoin, different things. What's your opinion regarding investing in themselves and having a gross mindset? Do you think it's a foundation most important thing compared with investing in stock market and real estate? So what's your opinion on that? Yeah, I think it's really important. I mean, I think, you know, someone said to me recently that they don't have time for like networking and meeting other people outside of the core role. I'm like, you know, you kind of need to do that. Like you need to find, you know, mentors outside of your work or people that you trust that you can bounce things off of. I think you need to be taking courses. You need to be up leveling your skills. I think if we take going back to AI questions, like if you're really great at writing emails, and that's like your core superpower, I'm like, I'm sorry, but you're going to have to develop some other skills. And again, I've worked with some of the best email writers, I think on the planet, like some PMs are really great at communicating. I think that will still be a valuable skill. However, like it can't be the only thing. I think there's like definitely this, you know, folks get comfortable with the things that they're good at. I think you need to get out of your comfort zone and learn new skills. And you need to talk to get out of your comfort zone. Also, we're talking to people that maybe, you know, you wouldn't talk to otherwise and learn things from them as well. So I think it's really going to be key to have a growth mindset. This is amazing, Rob. Thank you so much for sharing with us. All like golden neck and everything you just shared with us. So if the audience have follow up questions, where would they find you? My DMs are open on LinkedIn and on Twitter so people can hit me up on either of those spots and always happy to help make connections to other folks as well who can maybe be helpful. So yeah, feel free to hit me up on either of those platforms. This is awesome. So we're going to link Rob's Twitter in the description of the show. No, it's very popular. He's like posting amazing stuff on Twitter. So and like, subscribe and comment on our show so that I can bring more amazing speakers on our product insider podcast. Awesome. Thank you for joining us, Rob. And thank you for everyone who joined us and submitting all your questions through the back end. This is amazing. Awesome. Thank you guys. See you Rob. And thanks. Thank you for joining us.