 Good morning. My name is Joy Mochache. You are watching Help on Monday on the Y254 channel on Y in the Morning. Kindly hashtag Y in the Morning, hashtag Help on Monday. And also remember that please you can reach us on our social media platforms that is on Facebook, Twitter. That's Y254 channel. On Instagram you can find us on Y254 underscore channel. And you can find me and interact with me on Joy underscore Mochache. And well, today we have an important topic to discuss. Today, because of the trend that has been happening, we've been losing the lives of a lot of young ladies in what we are calling femicide. Femicide is the killing of females by men either just because of their gender or simply just because, you know, they've just been killed by a man. And today we have a psychologist that's going to give us an inside look on the minds or what is going on in the minds of the young men that are the perpetrators of such actions. His name is Dr. Haninton Ogonda. Please assist me in welcoming him. He's a psychologist and is here to discuss psychology when it comes to femicide. Karibusana, Dr. Ogonda. Thank you very much. Yeah, so glad to have you on our show. Yes. Yes. And you know, when we're talking out there, we had discussed a little bit and we're touching on the story of mostly Ivy Wengashi and what happened to her. And well, when it comes to relationships, because what I understand is she was dating a young man and this relationship ended up being a toxic one because actually she was preparing. It was the eve of her birthday when she lost her life. She was preparing for her birthday. She was very excited for it. And I think because this man had called her and she hadn't picked up the phone, this man got very upset and he decided he was going to get some transport all the way from Thika until Eldorit. And when he was driving, his mindset was he was going to take the life of this young lady and he reached there and he made sure that he did what he decided to do. Now, we'd like to hear your expertise and please Taffa Valley. Maybe you can share on how is it possible that somebody can drive that long distance and not change their mind. In your opinion, is this somebody who is mentally well? Thank you for the introduction. Mental health is composed of a variety of things. So many that we can't mention all of them here. As for him, to my opinion, there is what we would call cumulative stress. Okay. Cumulative stress. Cumulative stress. Cumulative from the word to accumulate. Okay. Yeah. It is a type of stress that piles up over a long period of time and are not attended. When this happens, it can lead to one deciding on taking up either his or her life or the lives of others. I would say in this case, what was his name once again? The man. Let me get his name just to be right. Whatever his name was. I must. This man could have been suffering from cumulative stress that made him go as far as from Excuse me, please. His name is Naftali. Oh, yes, Naftali. Naftali, Canada. That could have been what made Naftali to drive all the way from Thika to Eldoret to commit such a heinous act. It means throughout the relationship, there has been some problems that have not been resolved to some extent. So when these are not resolved, the stresses continue to accumulate, which might be disastrous in the case of what he did to his supposedly wife or godfriend. Yes. So I think that's the type of mental illness that disturbs most of us, that affects our daily lives and can make us react in one way or the other. Yes, that is very true. And I just like to say, you know, sometimes when it comes to toxic relationships, and I'd like to ask the public, what would you think if a man asked you for a date and you refused and he insulted you via text and maybe deletes your number? Or what would you do if you were happy in a relationship? And when refusing to give up your goods as a woman, the man becomes violent, maybe beats you or takes your life. Now, unfortunately, this happens on a day-to-day basis, these small scenarios that I've mentioned. And that's what the toxic relationships are about. Having one person that is having too much charge over the other person, too much control over the other person, and maybe dominating them in a negative way. And so what I'm seeing is that sometimes women do lose their lives. But today, we want to put an explanation as to why or what may be going on in the minds of the men that are perpetrating such acts against women. Now, Femicide, once again, we have said is a killing of a man, sorry, a killing of a woman by a man. And we'd like to once again remember that this happened in the case of Caroline Muatha, Christine Maunga, and Ivy Wengeshi. And today, we're going to focus on Ivy Wengeshi. And once again, I'd like to ask you, so because of the scenarios I had mentioned before, and I said that maybe you go on a date, a man asks you to give up your goods and you refuse, he becomes violent. This does happen. Now, I'd like to know in that kind of scenario, when women are being approached by men, and we say no, I think we have now reached a point where women are fearful of saying no. What's your take on this? I mean, we're scared of refusing anything now. Well, if I look at such a scenario, probably it is somebody that you have been with for quite some time. I think so, because you cannot just meet somebody from the blue and he goes to that extent. Of course. Well, it depends on how much the person has invested in this relationship, and also how intimate or how he feels towards you, like how much he loves you, that kind of stuff. So when you put all this together, the man finds that he should take control over what is over the woman, whatever he feels that a woman should do should happen. So mostly it is general thinking. A man thinks that he is on top of the world, he has spent so much in you, he has given you all his time, he has loved you and expects something back in return. Apart from that, I think you mentioned something about narcissism, which means self-love. Narcissistic or narcissism. Yeah, self-love, and you want to show people that you are capable of doing something. This is a characteristic or a type of behavior that not only men, but also women have that can contribute to what is happening now in our daily lives, especially the relationships that are coming. Would you say that our men are becoming more narcissistic then? It's like, no, I must have respect, I must have this, I must have that. If I don't have it, I will take a life. Not all men. Narcissism is a personality trait. Not everybody is narcissistic, but it can contribute to what these men have been doing to their fellow lovers. It is not a must that you have to be a narcissist to do such an envious act. It is also dependent upon the economic situations that are prevailing at the current times. So considering how much, as I said before, how much one has spent, how much time you have given yourself to your companion, and the stresses involved in life can lead to people behaving the way they are doing at the moment. Right. And you said that being a narcissist is a personality trait. And when we're talking about men such as Naftali, people who drive from tikka to elder without changing their minds, there are words that have been thrown their way by other, I guess, people that are interested in the psychological field. I'd like maybe for you to explain to me and to the viewers the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath. And why people have chosen to use these two terms to describe Naftali? Well, a sociopath is somebody who behaves weirdly to people in his social lives, you know, people around him. He behaves weirdly. Strangely. Strangely the way he did, you know, socially it's not acceptable. There are so many examples. Someone who does not behave in a way that socially acceptable. That socially is acceptable. That's a sociopath. That's a sociopath. Yeah. A psychopath means, you know, it's related to the mind. Right. Yeah. Probably you have some kind of some mental illness or something. Right. Mental illness does not mean you have to be taken to Madari. You know. Of course. There are illnesses that we have that we can be working around with. We look normal, but we are not. Yes. So this is the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath. A sociopath with socially unaccepted behaviors and a psychopath with mentally unaccepted behaviors. Right. So this person, because he is undergoing a certain kind of strain that we don't know, he could have exhibited both. He exhibited? Yeah. He could have exhibited both personalities. Both sociopath and psychopath. Yes. Because you see, driving all the way from Thika to Eldorette means he had something set in his mind to do. Yeah. That nobody could stop him. Yes. You know, you cannot be angry for that long. Exactly. Yes. Yeah. At some point he'll change your mind. He'll change your mind. Yeah. He never did that. Right. Yes. And that is why when we began this show, I talked about cumulative stress. Right. This could have led to anger that cannot be resolved. He was very angry, you know. Yes. And nobody could stop him from doing that. Yes. So this is something that he has put in his mind and has been happening for a long time, which has not been addressed. Yes. So that is what leads to what has been happening both socially and psychologically. And now that we've discussed the differences between sociopath and psychopath and why Naftali has been called some of these names, now I'd like us to move along to maybe the mindset of an abuser because sometimes abusers tend to be either sociopath or psychopath or both. And in the mindset of an abuser, if I could put the mindset of an abuser in one line, it would be, it's you that made me do it. An abuser will beat you, beat you, beat you or do whatever and then come back after an hour say I'm sorry, but it's you that made me do it. It's your fault. And I'm trying to kind of look at every single area. If he's not, if such people are not psychopaths, they're not sociopaths, they're not, they don't have depressive symptoms, they don't have schizophrenia or maybe it could just be an instance that this guy is an abusive man. And he just decided that, you know, for not picking up my call, for switching off your phone, I will make sure I take your life. And maybe we can delve into the mindset of an abuser where the man says or the woman says, it's you that made me do it. Or where we hear in relationships that are toxic, like we started off by discussing, there's a thing that we call being made mad or making mad, which is where normally the man tries to try and make the lady look like she's crazy. If she, the woman approaches and says, I know you're cheating on me. I have this evidence and this evidence. And I'd be like, no, you're crazy. You're mad. And so that sometimes the psychology is called making mad. And maybe we could discuss these things, both blaming of the victim or making the, trying to, you know, make it seem as if you made me do it in the mind of an abuser. Could you open up what happens in the mind of someone who is abusive, who has decided that it's your fault? Well, I didn't get the last beat of it. Right. When it comes to the mind of an abuser, who has decided that this is your fault? The reason I'm going to take your life, it doesn't matter. It doesn't mean that I'm wrong. It's your fault. You know, and this is where they tend to get most of their basis from. No matter what they do, they'll always blame you. And this is why one is an abuser, one is a victim. So can we touch on the mind of an abuser and ask ourselves if Naftali was an abuser, what could have been going through his mind at that particular time that he was driving and when he perpetrated the act? Well, in simple terms, we are just talking about the stresses that we have in life. There are very many types of stresses in life. We have day-to-day stresses of life. These are things that, by the end of the day, you get to have a solution to it. For example, when you wake up, you talk about like, what dress am I going to put on? Will I have lunch wherever I'm going to? You know. Well, but by the end of the day, you will have found a solution to whatever stresses that are disturbing you. These are called day-to-day stress. They are not very serious. Okay? Then what we talked about is cumulative stress where, you know, so many types of problems that you have left to accumulate, but they have not been addressed. This will lead to a cumulative stress or post-traumatic stress disorder if not well addressed. And then we have also critical incident stress. Critical incident stress is a type of stress that is spontaneous. It is not planned. You know, it is abrupt. For example, being involved in an accident but you don't die, you know, the reaction that you will have after a critical incident would be quite stressful or even a bomb blows up outside this building. How will we react? These are critical incidents because we have not planned for them. We are not expecting them. So we are reacting in different ways. You can run, you can cry, somebody can, you know, do all sorts of things. And then we also have post-traumatic stress disorder. These post-traumatic stress disorders or PTSD, they come later after the event has taken place. It can be a week, a month, two months, a year or something like that. The symptoms come later in life. And then coming back to your question, I think mindset is related to stresses or depressions that have not been addressed. It is not that this man has set his mind to do this and will have to do it. These are internal processes that he may not be under the control of unless they are addressed. So when we have not addressed these psychological problems, it becomes very difficult for the person to control himself towards the person he is going to abuse. Okay. And now we need to move on to the next question because when we do close, I'm going to ask what we can do in raising our children so that they can handle those stressful conditions so that they don't have to drive from one from Thika to Eldoret in a stressful condition. But that is when we close. But for now, and we've also discussed victim blaming, we're now going to talk about in Kenya, when it comes to you being a psychologist, the divorce rates have also been increasing. Yes. Yes. And again, this topic is also kind of enticed with toxic relationships, and that's how divorce comes in as well. Yes. Now, apparently when we're talking in the beginning, I heard you said that sometimes people need to be invested in these relationships. You must have spent some years in these relationships. And in the case that you've done that, sometimes you spend 10 years in a relationship, not just relationship. You've been married. You've been married for 10 years or more. And what happens is you divorce. And just because a lady has maybe asked for a divorce or something, if we are to take such matters into our hands and decide that this is a femicide case, I should take a life or whatever, because I've invested 10 years. I've built that house because of her. We've raised children. I've paid their school fees. Those children are now about teenagers. Then this man takes into account everything that he has spent, and he loses his mind for a second. And he gets angry. And he says, no, because of that, you deserve to die. Can we touch on that? Because sometimes then we say femicide is justified in Kenya because of such things. Femicide is actually justified in Kenya because of investment. There is no way you can do that to me. That's my property. I've paid this. I've done that. There's no way you can get away with that. And they take your life. And that's how femicide is justified in this country. And maybe we can talk about divorce and bring that in and say, when it comes to marriages, what if we're to do that? Would there be any Kenyan left? I mean, if we are to say, because of this, let me take your life. You've invested. I mean, what I would talk about in relation to what you have raised, mental health is an area that has been neglected in Kenya and in Africa as a whole. It is a very, very important sector in the outside world, the Americas, go to Europe. All these developed countries give mental health a priority. Even in schools. Yes, even in schools. Because a healthy mind will produce a healthy generation and they work outcome as well. For example, you cannot be here, all of you, if you're not mentally healthy. Yes. Even if you are, your performance, if you have low mental health, your performance will be very low. Meeting objectives will be very hard. So what we are lacking, that is leading to what you have just talked about, divorce and that kind of stuff is that we need to focus on mental health of our community, especially this country and Nairobi in particular. The lifestyles in Nairobi here is very difficult and challenging. So when you are confronted with the smallest thing, so far you become irritated. You lose your mind. Very tiny thing. Some of these things that result to people seeking for divorce, as you have said, could be displacement. It's a type of defense mechanism where, you know, for example, you are my boss, you scold me. There's nothing I can do to you. What do I do? I go back home and beat my children. Because I scolded you. Yes. I cannot do anything to you. I go to somebody that I can manage, which is always once wife or the children. So you are displacing your anger to these children. Mis-displaced anger. Yes. It's a defense mechanism. It makes you feel all right. Other examples are like if I want to buy a car, then I ask how much it costs. They tell me, like, it's 10 million. I know I don't have it, but I want to feel better. What do I say? After all, it's a very old model, you know. It's out of fashion. Why is it 10 million? It's old. So I'm making myself feel comfortable with the situation in which I am. So coming back to divorce cases, we have not addressed areas of mental illness. So if we address all this, you'll find that there will be a deduction in the rate of divorce, the rate of killings between couples, and the rate of, you know, dropping out of school and other antisocial behavior. Let us just focus on mental health in each and every sector, be it at workplace, at home, or even in schools. This will reduce the rate of antisocial behavior that we are experiencing every now and then. That is some very powerful advice. And lastly, maybe we can just, as we wind up, our last question, my last question to you would be, maybe we can touch on parents who are raising their children right now. I feel like, since we said in the States and in Europe, mental health is something that is taught in schools. There's something like depression, there's something, so that when it happens, you're not too surprised. Yeah, not surprised. It's something you have handled. I mean, you have come across it before. Yes. And so our last question would be, for our parents, how can you maybe give them some advice on how to bring up their children, on how to handle stress? Because also our generation doesn't know how to handle stress. Stress management in our generation is very low. Somebody gets stressed, they go and self-medicate by alcohol, drugs, whatever. Stress management is low. How can parents raise children to handle life, handle the negatives of life, the ups and downs of life, the rejections of life, because we rejected you will be at work, everywhere, with family, with relations, you will be rejected. How do you take it? How can you raise a child to be strong enough? Yes. Well, it's a very good question. What I would say about this is, apart from training the child on stress management, which most households don't know, it is my suggestion that mental health as a unit should be incorporated in schools from early life, maybe standard one primary to secondary. This is where we have always been neglecting this area. So we grow up not knowing how to manage stress. People know how to manage stress when they go to colleges and they are trained on what is stress and how do you manage stress. So for the parents, I think the community should be sensitized on creating support groups and encourage our children to join these support groups. Support groups could be in churches, could be among the family members, people who you go to when you want to, when you have a problem. It can be our community leaders. So incorporating mental health in our curriculum will help reduce or train the people on how to manage the stress and also talking about it if you have an idea. But the only problem is that we are less educated on that field. Mental health project or programs should be incorporated in our educational curriculum. I think that will be the easiest way to make the children grow up knowing how to manage these stresses. That is very true. Yes. I'd like to thank you for your advising expertise on this particular topic, Dr. Ogonda. Thank you very much. And thank you for coming to the show. You're welcome. Yes. And if any of our viewers have any questions or any views about what we've discussed, please remember you can reach us on our social media handles. That is Y-254 on both Facebook and Twitter. And then on Instagram you can find us on Y-254 underscore channel and I can be found on Twitter. This has been a wonderful talk. Make sure you hashtag one in the morning, hashtag help on Monday. And maybe the last word I could say is as parents who are listening or any government officials who are listening, we need to incorporate mental health into our curriculums at a very early age, studying at the primary school level. And so that our children can grow up knowing what to expect and how to handle stress properly. Thank you so much for watching.