 Good morning, and aloha everybody. My name is Mark Schlaufe, and I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. And today we have my old friend Alan W.C. Ma as my guest. The world is a stage, and lawyers play many parts on that stage. And today we're going to ask Alan a little bit about the parts that he has played in crossing the sea and in life. His main focus is immigration law. However, he's been involved in the entertainment business, both as an actor and a writer. And we're going to explore his background, what he has achieved and what he's done and what he sees in the law and in life. Aloha Alan, good to see you today. Well, thank you for inviting me. My pleasure. And we've had a long relationship, and it's good to see you here finally in Law Across the Sea. But tell me, let's start out, tell me a little bit about your background, please. Where are you from? How did you get to Hawaii? From a native of Hong Kong, I was born and raised in Hong Kong. I always confuse people by telling them that I'm a first generation immigrant from a second generation mother. And do you know what it means? I'm waiting to hear this, because I'm confused now. What it means is that my mother was born and raised in Hawaii. And like a century ago, a lot of Chinese, as well as the Japanese people, they sent the children, those born in Hawaii and back to the native countries for education. And my mom was sent back to China to study at age 13. And she subsequently stayed back because she married to my father. And eventually she moved to Hong Kong this, and how I was born in Hong Kong. I see. And so you were born in Hong Kong, your mother went from Hawaii to where in China? Well, originally she went back to Zhongshan. And most of the Chinese in Hawaii, their ancestors, were from Zhongshan. And that's where my, actually both my parents, you know, were from. I see. And where is that near? That's a small area and very close by Macau and somewhere between Macau and Guangzhou. So going to Hong Kong was close by, also? Yes. And because of the invasion by the Japanese and the family moved to Hong Kong. And so I was born in Hong Kong. OK. And what happened? What happened in Hong Kong to you? What was your life like there? And how did things progress that ultimately your second generation mother said, hey, let's go back to Hawaii? I guess. I'm guessing. Right. I'm the youngest of eight children. And our parents wanted to send the children back to the U.S. one by one. And when we became independent. So I was the last one to be sent from Hong Kong to Hawaii. My mom was born as an American citizen. So she always had the right to petition the children to come to the U.S. as immigrants. OK. So that's a great question, especially nowadays. OK. So your mother was born here in Hawaii. And because of that, she's an American citizen. That's correct. And so she has the right to bring her children in or to petition the government as citizens of the United States. Is that right? That's correct. The laws do the same. OK. All right. The laws do the same. So when did you come to Hawaii and what was that like and what did you do? I came to Hawaii when I was about 17, 18, closer to 18. And then I kind of finished the last year of high school here. And then I subsequently went on to the University of Hawaii and then Shamanah for my MBA. And then I went on to law school in San Francisco. OK. Now I want to just go back to Hong Kong for a minute. OK. You left Hong Kong about 17 years old. OK. You've been educated in Hong Kong. What were you doing in Hong Kong? What was your life like as a young person in Hong Kong with an American mother and I guess, I mean, a Chinese father, citizenship-wise, I think that's correct. What was your life like in Hong Kong? I would say pretty much like a normal kid. But in my case, I was fortunate that my father had a very good friend who was the director of the television show. And I was hired as a child actor. And subsequently, I worked in various television programs for about four years until the very last week before I flew to Hawaii. OK. So that kind of gives us a background of how you got involved in the entertainment business. I kind of, even thinking back those days, I worked in all this television program. I was in commercials and I had my share of fun growing up. And in those days, having television was already a big deal. But working in television program was even a bigger deal. And in Hong Kong, you know, I don't know this. Which language are we talking? Are we talking English? Are we talking Chinese or both? They're all of the above? In your commercials? In your commercials or in TV? How does that work? It's always in Cantonese and Hong Kong. All the people in Hong Kong basically, they speak Cantonese. Although Hong Kong before 1997, it was a British colony. So we had English courses. But once you go home, you speak Cantonese. So there's very much, you know, we live in a Cantonese-speaking society. And using English was rather limited. So even the entertainment business was in Cantonese? Is that right? Well, in those programs that I worked in, of course, the television stations, they had also English program. But I worked mainly in those Cantonese programs. And those were geared towards Hong Kong locals. That's correct. That'd be right? That's right. All right, so you got here to Hawaii. And your parents wanted to send you out to learn to, I guess, be independent and to get an education in the United States and come to the United States. Was there an idea that you were going to go back? Or was this, I mean, were you just going to be into the United States for the rest of your life? What was the plan? Or was there a plan? Well, looking at my other older siblings, and everyone just settled down in the US. So of course, my plan then was just to settle in the US. But at that time, of course, when I first came over, not knowing my own ability and what could I do. So I just continued to go to school. And I didn't have any plan to become whatever professionals or anything like that at that time. You were a good son. You just went to school all the time. Yes, I did. OK, but how did it come about then that the law? How did you get involved in the law? And how did that get started? What did you do to get your degree and become a practicing attorney? Well, being a immigrant, and of course, I also speak three different dialects of Chinese. And I was very involved in the Chinese community. I saw a lot of people, they really needed help. And they couldn't command English. And they didn't understand American law. And often because of their ignorance, and they put themselves in difficult positions. So that kind of motivated me to become a lawyer, to be able to help some of those people in the immigrant community. And you saw these problems as you were growing up here in Hawaii after you arrived. That's correct. OK. And that kind of inspired you. That's what I'm hearing, to look towards the law, or look to a way to help people. That's correct. OK, so what happened next in your life? You went to law school, and you were here in Hawaii, but you went away to law school. Right. Well, I was very fortunate. I was awarded this national scholarship called CLEO. Essentially, Congress, at least in those days, they select about 250 students nationwide to receive scholarship to have a special assistant for them to go to law school. But those scholarship recipients must commit to going back to their own state. In my case, I came back to Hawaii in part, because I received a scholarship. And my commitment was to help the people in Hawaii. And so after I concluded my legal education, I came back to Hawaii to work. Scholarship sounds like a pretty good deal, pretty good idea. Is it still going on? I believe it is. And I believe the program is still going on. OK, so all right. You got the scholarship. You finished law school. Then what happened in your career? Where did you have this feeling about the immigration law? Where did that take you? Of course, when I started looking for jobs, and I knocked on doors at that time, and all the prominent immigration law firms or lawyers. And I came across my then employer who became my mentor. And subsequently, my law partner, Mr. Ronald Odenberg. So I started working for him as an associate. And after a few years, then we became law partners. And so I focused. Since the first day, I started my law practice in immigration law. And is that all you do? Is there anything else you do presently or through your background as a lawyer? Is that basically your focus still continuing to be immigration law? Immigration practice is very complex. I guess even for some other lawyers, they don't quite understand what immigration law is about. Immigration law is intertwined with other areas of law. And for example, business law, labor law, family law, even criminal law, and tax law. While as an immigration lawyer, I'm no expert in these other areas of law. But I often have to work with lawyers of these other disciplines in order to serve my immigrant clients right. And additionally, because of my business training, then currently my work is more focused in the business immigration practice than other area of law. OK, now you mentioned Ron Oldenburg. And I heard of him when I started out, too. Pretty well-known fellow in the immigration area. And what was your experience with him? What was that like? He was your mentor. Is that right? Well, absolutely. And when I started working for him, he very unselfishly and shared with me his work experience. And particularly, some of the things that, as a lawyer, you can appreciate legal tactics, strategies, those sort of things. It's not something you can learn from law school. It's not in the books. Not in the books. So he was very kind to share those with me. But I really learned far more when Ron and I, and also and with Dan, very famous immigration lawyer, Mr. Les Thompson. And we had a so-called breakfast club. And for a long time, we meet every Thursday just to chat and to learn from each other immigration law. We learned a great deal from each other. We were also passionate in this area of law practice. And we really want to be good at it. So that was sort of like a informal CLE, legal education, that you would take up every Thursday with your buddies in the same area of law. And I know that as you went through this, you had many interesting cases. And after the break, I want to ask you to tell us about what you can about some of your interesting cases, OK? Certainly. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. My friend, mother, what big eyes you have. She's sad. All the better to see you with my dear. What are you doing? OK. Research says reading from birth accelerates the baby's brain development. And you're doing that now? Oh, yeah. This is the starting line. Posh. When this is over, you're dead. Read aloud 15 minutes. Every child, every parent, every day. Aloha. I'm Marcia Joyner, inviting you to navigate the journey. Spend the time with us as we look through and discover all of the ins and outs of this journey through life. We're on Wednesdays at 11 AM. And I would love to have you with us. Come navigate the journey. Aloha. Welcome back to Think Tech Hawaii Law Across the Sea. My name is Mark Shklav, the host of Law Across the Sea. I'm here with my friend Alan W. C. Ma. And we're talking about his life on the stage of attorney, being an attorney in Hawaii, and the immigration law. And in that life on that stage as an attorney, you come up with many different scenes. And I would like to ask him about some of those scenes and some of those plays that he's been in and the interesting ones. So Alan, tell us what you can about some of the interesting cases that you've had over the years. Oh, certainly. In the course of the last 33 years of my practice, I looked at my record. I must have worked on about 10,000 cases or provided advice and consultation. But several really stood out. And it's always in my mind. And I also have friction and written, based on my experience, those bigger cases. So you've taken the reality and created something from it based on what happened. That's right. And as a new lawyer, I believe one of the biggest cases I was involved, not, of course, I was relatively inexperienced and young. And I was a member in the team to work in a Marcos family case. And when Marcos and Fertinand, President Fertinand Marcos and his wife and children came to Hawaii in 1986, I was one of the first few lawyers to have met them, to talk to them, and eventually helped Mr. Olenberg to work on this case. Now, in the process, we learn a lot not so much about immigration law, but learn a lot about the political history of the Philippines, the geopolitical issue in that region of the world. And you open up your eyes by dealing with people of that caliber. And you learn about their lives. You learn about what they do. You learn about whether or not all the medias report on these people real or not real. So to me, that is one of the bigger cases that stands out and in my work experience. The other one was helping these Chinese who migrated to Nicaragua. And in an interesting situation, he helped. He saved the life of the commander-in-chief of the Nicaraguan government. And coincidentally, and preceding that, his uncle saved the life of the president of Nicaragua. So I successfully helped him to apply for political asylum in a deportation case. And that was very dramatic in the trial and very memorable. And to me, it was a very interesting experience. Again, in this process, I learned about Central America. I learned about the culture, the political history of the country, and so forth. I had also worked on a case, and there was pretty significant. I also defended successfully an alleged Yakuza, or the mafia in Japan. Alleged, alleged. Alleged, and who had filed the second largest bankruptcy case ever in Japan's history, with about 2.3 trillion in the end of total debt. And in that case, he was alleged to have violated immigration law for and having committed a visa fraud. And again, I successfully defended in that case. And the other one was also very interesting, was that I helped Mr. Ronald Oldenburg. He surrendered a German soldier who was hiding in Hawaii in the 1980s and after 45 years after World War II. It's very difficult for people to believe that we still have a German soldier after he escaped from the war prison camp. And he was hiding in Hawaii 45 years after World War II. So he made his way here somehow and was trying to stay out of the limelight, but something made him come forward. Well, actually, he had no choice. At the time, we had a very tough immigration district director. And he was the Mr. Sam Feldman was the first and only district director, invoked a special power to use the Hawaii National Guard to go to different places, including Maui, to run up so-called illegal aliens. So he was not noticed by the US authorities, but he decided to come forward. That was the prudent thing to do. Right. And I did substantial research on the war crimes law and all those and make sure that he would come out clean. And before we made arrangement for him to surrender to US authorities, we also notified the German embassy to let them know that they had a German soldier hiding in Hawaii. So all of these things are actually very topical. The Philippines, we're still seeing things nowadays that are going on in the Philippines that some people harken back to Marcos days. And South America is having some problems. Germany just had an election where it looks like maybe there's right wing government forces coming in, not major, but perhaps a start. What have you learned from all these people? What have you learned? What have you learned? What is going on here in our society? Because I can tell your experiences go beyond lawyering. Well, again, this is the most interesting part of being an immigration law practitioner. Immigration law, to most immigration lawyers, it's not pure immigration law practice. We often get into, again, political history and the culture of other countries. When we try to represent a client from a different country, you don't learn so much just that particular client. His background is the political inclination. You learn so much about his country. You learn so much about the political issues, not just in that country, but also around the world. So it really broadened your views of the world. This is a part of the immigration practice. And of course, immigration practice also is complex in dealing with other things. For example, a lot of people know me as an EB-5 lawyer, because I have been doing EB-5 works since the law and passed in 1990. And that's an investment encouragement type of a law. That's correct. And because of the practice of that law, and I had a contract to represent the state of Hawaii to set up an office in Hong Kong to promote Hawaii as an investment location. So again, the practice of the law would bring me not to let me learn about different culture and political histories of different places. You actually travel. And you actually go to different places. And today, I still go to take an overseas trip no less than three, four times a year, because of the work that I do. OK, now, as you've seen all these people, you've seen the problems that they have in immigration. And politics play a big part in a lot of this. Today, we know that. Alan, has anything changed? Has anything changed over the years? Or are we just going to continue to repeat ourselves with these problems, with fear of foreigners and with immigration issues? Is it just going to continue? Has anything changed or progressed? I think the world is progressing in that because of the electronic medium is bringing people together. And we have, unfortunately, political leaders who might have different ideologies, might have different view about people from certain places, might have different ideas how the law should be enforced. And if you look at history, and immigration law is a branch of public interest law, how our government policies changes would affect not just thousands, perhaps millions of people. And it really depends on our political leaders, not just the president, but also the people in the Congress, how they would look at this world, how they would look at the Americans integrate into this world, and to make this place, to make this whole world more peaceful. So, you know, and people could live together, not in one country, but in the entire world. And I think a lot of it has to be with getting to know people. That's correct. And getting to know their background, and maybe that's what you do in immigration law. Now, you get paid for being an immigration attorney, right? What are the benefits beyond money to you as an immigration attorney in your practice? What have you found? Well, I think the most rewarding is really the understanding of the immigration practice is really humanistic. We have people because the work that, for example, I did, I literally have saved a life. Remember me forever? I received Christmas cards from clients from 25 years ago because of what I did. And I think that my law practice doesn't just give me financial and reward, but it brings me satisfaction. And because I saved people's lives, I help a lot of people who often are desperate, poor, and they feel helpless. When you, at that moment, give these people your hands, and they will remember you forever. And I have a lot of good friends today, and they're all my former clients. To me, this is the biggest and reward in my practice. Not so much money I could make. And from being an attorney, doing immigration law. Well, Alan, I appreciate that. And it sounds to me like being an immigration attorney is a big stage. And you've played many roles. And they've all been satisfactory. And maybe some of those plays will continue in the future. I certainly hope so. And thank you very much for being my guest today. Oh, thank you. Aloha. Aloha.