 Welcome to the annual DEF CON convention. This meeting was held at Exciting Las Vegas, Nevada, from July 9th to the 11th, 1999. This is video tape number 53. It's called a cluster something. Yeah. Again, another technical term. And we're uncomfortable with this. This is definitely right. Hello. You told us that was a hard one. Yeah. Turn it down before we get to the map. Please. Give the mic a quarter of an inch. Hello. Hello. Excellent. Professor Mann, can you give us a mic test real quick? Don't hang up on him, please. Where's the mic jack? That thing. Excellent. We're over there. Let's hear it for Dune, Ingenuity. Okay. First of all, I want to find out if Professor Mann, do you have anything similar that you want to say and start off with? And I guess you're going to be giving a lecture, or do you just want to post straight into taking questions? I'm going to just give a lecture about, I'm going to give a sort of lecture to myself. And instead of seeing me, you're going to be being me. Okay. Just an FYI, it looks like we've got the video here is frozen. So is that something on your end or is that a freeze frame here of you holding? Are you getting six or seven frames a second? Okay. Just in a moment then, let's try and solve that. You can go with us for just one moment, Professor. I heard of something called a mediated reality, as I was worried in the media. Do you know anything about that, or have you heard, is that what you're involved with? Idiated reality is something that simply includes the ICAP camera, mediated reality in using the computer to alter the perception of reality. I see. And what exactly, what kind of, what do you mean when you say alter the perception of reality? Well, the ICAP device absorbs light that would otherwise enter an eye of the wearer and modifies that light and then reconstructs that light to pass into the wearer. So a simple example of mediated reality is when you're walking around, somebody wants to communicate with you. One way they can communicate is by altering your own reality. For example, by putting a note on something so you're walking along and you see a sort of message that you might see. You go to the grocery store and you see the note going to remind you to buy it. You're talking to these car salesmen and, you know, your wife at home maybe makes it known so long when she thinks she's lying. What if you arrive on an asset at the time? Well, you might have done problems there, but I think the general idea of mediated reality is to change the perception of reality. So it's a little bit different than virtual reality or video games in the fact that you still see the baseline. What is actually in the real world and then you see that the modified version of that. Thanks. Again, I guess we're still trying to re-establish the video feed and what I'd like to do, you know, normally we would say this to the end. I was just going to take a few questions from some of the people in the crowd here. I like to answer those and then once we get the video feed going then we'll see what we're talking about here. So let me see how you have fun here. What type of irresponsible uses do you see for this type of technology, Professor? I think like advertising, that type of thing. One of the things that I'm trying to do is design filters to filter out advertising so that when you're walking around you can filter out real-world ads. You know, already we have some dam in the real-world which is billboards and things like that. So what I envision is that the mediated reality can be used to filter out the dam. Did you catch that, Professor? No, I didn't hear that. He asked, is the eye piece that you were speaking about is that an implant, is that an intrusive type of technology or is this something that you simply wear? The current embodiment of eye cap technology, many of them are not basis so that it's not necessary to modify the body in order to obtain the eye cap. Let me take another question here. The question was can you describe any existing types of technology, of this technology that are intrusive and invasive, I guess, as you put it? Well, I guess it depends on how, you know, how it needs to filter, you know, things like electrodes and connections and things like that. First, it's totally a surface phenomenon. The most useful technology I believe now is thinking that it's totally a surface phenomenon or that it has to involve any solid connection to the body that might be disruptive. I see. That's what we got out there. Anybody? This guy over here. Yeah, but the problem that I always experience when trying to see this out is that it's just a pretty light. It's actually taking away the resources so it's like you're able to change what's actually going to happen and change reality in the future. Did you catch that, Professor? Yeah, I guess there's the delay problem and that's one of the reasons the early embodiment of the reality mediator I did the processing of the body. So I had to climb up on the roof of the college building in the city and put these cameras there and then I had a microwave down to the roof of the building and then I ran up from there to various computers one of which was an SGI and we already mentioned several other processes so that it could keep up with the processing rate. A big problem is processing rate and keeping up with the processing rate. So the other approach we're taking now is that they're available to 64 processors in a kind of sort of clothing-based 64 computers out there that you can wear underneath the shirt or something like that. A wearable supercomputer? Yeah, that's basically what it is. Ordinarily, in my old break I would be wearing either my computer fairly fast video processing engine but I think the veil blaster will be the right approach to getting that compute power to really be delayed but tolerable. Okay, now let me take somebody back here, there's a guy back here at the end of the white shirt. The question was, can you describe the hardware you're wearing at the moment? The hardware I'm wearing is a special-purpose video processing engine and then the hole in the crack end for it is a Linux-based computer hopefully running the Linux operating system and communicating part of the processing to a chip following with the output connection. Just a moment, before we continue just another update apparently the guess is that somebody must have really wanted to see Jericho's top because we're being smurfed from the outside the DOS attack is coming from outside so yeah, that's a bummer and unfortunately we have some people with pretty juvenile mentalities so that's what we're dealing with. So what we're going to do is continue Q&A until we can try to establish something or tell the DOS stuff and we're just going to keep working on this hardware processing in front of you. She said, what kind of specific problems, anything? The question was do you have problems with glass mirrors or other reflective surfaces? Not particularly the processing engine just processes the light that comes in so mirror light surfaces have particularly been a problem. The question was what type of processors do you have a web page? Yeah, the processors are described on the wearcamp.org site U-E-A-R-C-A-M.org which describes the kind of computers that are used so there's a variety of different processors the host is typically a premium type processor some of the other ones that using a strong R1100 is the host's processor so that's going to be a problem with XF-86. Can you do a PTO? We've got some people with some hands Actually, when you get the video feed I can show you if there's a Linux box there's something that you can pick this up because it was showing up earlier I think on a variety of Linux big feeders that you'll see are just some kind of normal Linux box. We do have several boxes here the problem is that we're getting a denial or service attack on a router or a string from this and so we're not able to pass any traffic so that's what we're getting into we've got internal commentary we're going to take a couple more questions The question was we're about using this equipment in telepresence or in many ways it is telepresence The question was when do you see this as a mass market commodity type of technology? I think it's going to take a few years to mass produce this apparatus so I see it maybe as a few years off before it becomes a commodity technology The question was what is the status of PTP for the images? PTP is something that we're working on now so there's a good chance we may end up deciding to run that over IPv6 or we might we're working also in some embodiments at UDP we have a working embodiment of PTP and we're just experimenting that's further developing the protocol of emotional of setting of the images so you understand the video if a packet is locked then there is no sense that it gets behind so I suggested that each packet be a picture one packet be one picture and select the degree of JPEG compression that would make that possible so rather than using an FPEG screen that would require a previous or next images the idea is to have each packet be one frame a video and then if and when a packet is locked then rather than asking for a reset we simply get the next image that's most up to date because the underlying assumption is that the camera or the device especially iPads can roll out 100 frames a second out of an island where maybe you can only set 10 frames a second so if one of those is locked then be invariably a newer image that locks to the example I got a question from the guy in the back here who else the question was does the eye tap back your eye minutes some embodiment of it involves an eye jacker but not necessarily so that's a separate feature that can't be included or doesn't need to be included I wrote in Linux Journal early this month early this year in March issue Linux Journal I described the reality window manager and how the window manager can be made to work a game pattern so you can look at window manager and select them apparently we've got some connectivity so we're going to try to restore your feet as soon as we can I'm going to take a few more questions here what is the family that you see professor the frame rate that I internally get is adjustable I can choose to get the full frame rate on the order of 16 frames per second or I can also select frame rate what I often do is I remotely log in to another computer and then set it back to me so that I can see a frame rate that would be typical of a computer somewhere else so a lot of times if I'm giving a lecture say in the UK somewhere I remotely log into the computer and then bring it back so that I get a kind of delayed experience so that it enters into the feet that group of how I get the presentation the question is how how much weight and how how does this affect your range of movement the equipment that you wear the major factor is the equipment is much lighter now 20 years ago was a very heavy burden back in the 1970s weighing some bricks weighing as much as I did and now it's quite a bit lighter over the years so I've built a number of them of different weights I've built more than 100 different units of very different weights so some of them are quite lightweight and have lesser capabilities a large-failed browser of course you'd expect that to be here let's say a simple video problem of the people computer as a whole you and the kid in the end sharing did you catch that proposal? Professor did you get that question? no the question was can you sort of enhance your senses your vision because you're me things like binoculars or some kind of digital enhancement for your vision a couple of attributes of the current system one is that I can see in total darkness because of the infrared capability of the iPad another interesting effect of course is that you see a lot of things that are happening over a broadband frequency such as the elevator doors and all these extras and you can see where all the lights are and I can read the numbers on the chip so that we're on the elevator door besides so I would often at first when I was wearing the iPad I would often look at the open elevator door and would be reading the numbers on the chip and commenting on the resister values and other people would say what are you blocking the boat? I don't see anything and then I took off my glasses and I realized I couldn't see anything but the black strip of glass it running down the side of the elevator and I would see and read through it because this was the device that was at me whether or not the door was blocked and there was some 42 LEDs and there was a circuit board laying the whole light there so you can see a lot of things like that the other thing of course is the edutonian vision that I would typically see for example the number of volts on a wheel on the car that was going at 60 miles an hour I couldn't feel comfortable from there on the boat because of the edutonian effect that the iPad can impart very cool enough with this guy is there an implementation of your window manager that you spoke of earlier? there are some prototypes of the video orbits so for example now the video orbits is available on the webcam that works like the video orbits professor we just got your feed we're getting your feed and we're queuing down a lot so we're seeing what you're seeing what sort of frame rate are you getting? it looks like about 3-4 frames a second it's a little bit slow now I guess it's bursting it's bursting sometimes and then sometimes it's slowing down I guess it probably depends on what kind of traffic we have on the other wheel so what do you see now? we see a hallway that's good so this is the hallway of the University of Toronto and then this is the section of the lab that I mean here so I'll just give you a little tour we have a little area here with chairs, table chairs where people can wait and various brochures here can you see what you see now? Windows NT I guess you guessed we love you professor you've definitely got an evidence crew we'll definitely do and what we have is a series of papers and brochures and this is the speech of recycling here because we've got too much junk walking around so I'll just put that in my recycling bin here it's good some cause here so this is my office and I've got here on my door I've got this image, some example the pictures that I've taken transmitted with my tap and the title of my talk here you can see that can you read this? yeah, DEF CON 7 to do a headset extras extension I love my talk is personal fibrinetics that's what I'm talking about here and personal fibrinetics is this notion of personal personal fibrinetic technology the combination of aircon and the iPad video camera these two devices when combined together give you what I refer to as personal fibrinetics and personal fibrinetics provide a kind of framework for like a personal extension of the mind and body and the apparatus of the invention has evolved somewhat a picture of one of the early versions some years ago very cumbersome sort of iPad type or an i-connecting type device that involves a cathode ray tube and through some degree of time there are some of these other ones involving cathode ray tubes until more recently what I have is this kind of eyeglass dating device with everything inside the glasses so that it just looks like ordinary eyeglass and yet continues to provide an output of at least one eye of the wearer so how is my video feed coming through it's looking excellent the frame rate is like I say it's still between probably two and five frames a second but it's pretty clear and we've got a really nice projector bill and it's a pretty good view we had some questions or some requests that you at some point if you could stand in front of the mirror so that we can see what you look like if it's possible yeah I guess I could do that I've got some optics here in my lab in my office I've got a first-year mirror here so you can probably see this is a wearing now one of my older and older embodiments of my apparatus this is a larger beam splitter this is a big beam splitter that I've got here you can actually see through the beam splitter but if I hold it around this way there's an option sort of like a mirror and you can kind of see so this is this is can you see that? yeah very very very cool that was the appropriate so I use those beam splitters I'm making just an optical system so that I put a piece of glass into a belge and pump all the air out of the glass I have some electricity running through a piece of aluminum wire inside the glass it can be positive layers of aluminum and there's that big beam splitter and of course the beam splitter functions like a partial mirror that reflects light as long as there's nothing coming from the other side you probably noticed that in some sense I am a camera I would say I am I am a document camera so in many ways people often make presentations by using a document camera in this case I am a document camera in the sense that the eye path is taking my right eye and giving that effect as being a document camera and I could also say that I am a document camera and the eye itself is functioning as a document camera that's the general philosophy and framework of this notion now earlier a couple of people asked about what are some of the evil dark side of the technology and I guess maybe I should address that right away because one of the problems is what happens if the technology gets higher what happens if the operating system states around the technology happens to be a virus of some kind an operating system is a virus or an operating system that can clean viruses I define a virus and a viral operating system is one for which there is an open closure of an underlying critical of operation so what I define is the notion of completely open of sort of header research and I say is the software closure in other words is completely disclosed closure versus viral and a viral in the drug that is something that doesn't come with the full disclosure and you can well imagine what would happen if you had a decision to have your body which what would be the closing of the peer review and so on and some of the problems that might do the rise of that for example advertising and spam and everything spam in your real world body and so on so there's some concepts there that are important so can you hear me already? Yeah right now you put occasionally you're getting some applause here and you sort of cut out but overall you're coming too quickly That's good so the other application that I'm looking at is filtering out spam in the real world one of the problems that I know it is is that we've heard a lot lately about spam in email and they're getting spammed but we've been spammed by billboards and advertisements that are posted upon us without our permission or consent and we get spammed continuously with all this unwanted and unsolicited material you can walk down the street and you see a big billboard that's spam so I've been looking at ways to filter out spam now mainly spam has gotten a lot worse in recent years this is a picture of spam that's located on the wall directly above the urinal and it's located in a place that's rather hard to ignore the spam who is difficult to ignore when it's located there so this is the picture you pick the spam located here and I've got my eyeglasses here these are my newer glasses people may have seen the newer ones which look just like ordinary glasses but they have this filter of capability because the bare glasses this is what the spam looks like this spam is located right here it was in this building on the second floor for a little while and what I've got here you can see there is the urinal here directly above it there is this picture of this worn wearing nothing but a bra what you have is this a copy of the stuff under one cup of the bra which gives us a picture that may be distracting to the particular task at hand the spam here has a caption underneath the word pleasure this is the company logo here and so on that we see within that spam and so the way that the spam is dealt with is that the eyeglasses build an environment map which collect all the images together and make this mathematical analysis using the reality window manager RWM is built upon this notion called video orbit the video orbit is based on projective coordinates transformations of algebraic geometry the video orbit resembles these images into this composite so as I'm looking around they're joined together you can see here that the spam is here and the entire theme has been pieced together mathematically so once it's in that mathematical form then the spam can be replaced with other materials so here is the image where the spam has been filtered out so what I've done here is replace the spam with the waterfall image which is much more conducive to the task so this device is something that I call a visual filter and the visual filter filters out spam by virtue of a kill file so if you would like to get rid of something you press control K to enter that into your kill file and it pushes it out of the kill file now because the private work community is a connected community you can well envision a shared notion of kill files so that you get these kill files now I don't recognize that rudiment automatically instead you have to be offended at least once to put it into your kill file but then at least you're not getting it again so this application of visual filter and reality window manager is defined in one of my favorite journals here called The Linux Journal and this is the article this is the version of The Linux Journal describing in March of 1999 a second part of the two part theory entitled the mediated reality and the University of Toronto project and RWM is RWM is the reality window manager and that basically is the essence of a sort of computer state that is described there and RWM is based on a framework that is the new which I call which is a abbreviation of The Linux in honor of Richard Dolman who is the pioneer of what we know is the free software movement and I was looking at a software that is pre-legal tributable and sort of covering that over some of the other things that could be less. So RWM is based on a framework the new Linux particularly the abbreviation because that is the least viral there is of course Red Hat which is pretty good Red Hat at least they put all the viruses on separate bits so you can put it in the microwave oven which would mean the deviant of course doesn't come with any viruses at all so that's what I would call the most pure form of the most viral operating system and that's therefore what we've selected the deviant version for this particular project there's some aspects of the project one aspect is called shooting back and this shooting back project involves wearing the apparatus of the infection in various department stores in gambling casinos and banks in places like that where photography is strictly prohibited yet surveillance was used extensively and these are the environments which according to the Davies' definition satisfy the definition of the teleperian regime a teleperian regime is a regime that would like to know as much about everyone but reveal nothing about itself so next time you're in the department store where there are surveillance cameras take a few pictures of those surveillance cameras and what you'll find is that models will come running out very quickly to be photographed the models are wearing special uniforms usually blue uniforms with stripes with some kind of down that leg and so on and they often wear these metal badges with numbers on them so they have the word security written on them to tell us that the model is for purposes of photographic and so this shooting back project involves collecting these images of surveillance cameras and so on here's another image that you can see how the reality window manager WWF looked in conjunction with video orbit you can see here there are one, two three, four, five, six seven pictures that were taken in rapid succession from my right eye I tapped out and those pictures are then joined together in this contextualization of a framework showing the photographic image composite over here we have the same here I am using this tape on you can see from my point of view from inside my eye you are looking out at the tape on and you see the gaze pattern that I took as I looked around these capture very much the gaze pattern here here's another example of a video orbit a gaze pattern here I'm talking to the departmental representatives and I look up here towards the ceiling and I look around this way and I capture the surveillance infrastructure shooting back project the other project that we are researching here is a project called please wait please wait is a project that involves a head-mounted display that covers completely the face can everybody see that? that we are able to see that so I have here a head-mounted display that covers the wearer's eyes and ears so that I can't hear anything or see anything until there is an interaction there's a keypad here and there's a card reader with a slot on it and this is the camera here and it's integrated into this I have here a front view of the apparatus of this invention and there is a short plan for a transmitting video and there is a long plan for a receiving video and there is also the plan of picking up the backpack which contains the computer and we run a PCPIC over the radio and the data back and forth there's a little set of instructions that you need to keep at here and this is the set of instructions on how to use these what we have here is basically written instructions on how to use these and what we have written on that set of instructions is let's see if I can find that here written out that set of instructions on how to use the apparatus and how to interact and we I can find it here another copy from my archive I've got a bunch of copies with it up here it's called Please Wait and the key it's called Please Wait and this should have it up here in my file it's intelligent there's a copy of Please Wait so this is a set of instructions on how to use the apparatus and it says I do not talk to strangers that's written on this black card that's mounted on my page so this one I walk into a department store and here it is to read the black card and learn the instructions on how to use it I do not talk to strangers therefore you must slide a government issued ID card through the slot on my head if you would like to talk to me these safety glasses prevent me from seeing or hearing you until you identify yourself until you provide positive ID the camera and microphones on my head will not be connected my head mounted this way so this is kind of a sleeping with what my mother always told me which was never to talk to strangers and of course department store security guards with strangers department store managers with many many strangers around so then the instructions go on to say your time is very important to me so please wait for my message available multiple times there is provided a set of instructions on how to use the number of e-pads mounted to my head worn to weight that and it says if you would like to try to sell me a new product press 1 if you would like to ask me to fill out a form press 2 and then it says if you would like to show me an advertisement press 3 and slide your credit card through the slot on my head so now lastly the instructions on my head say for quality control and training purposes this conversation may be recorded or monitored and finally if you would like to inform me that photography is not permitted on your premises press 9 and wait for my next available moment that piece is titled please wait appears on the webcamsador website at the URL I'll just write that down in larger letters could be so that is that is e-e-a-r e-a-m o-r-g that speaks the website and the piece of the title so wait wait so there is a variety of other research projects that I've involved with we're designing a non-viral operating system we're designing a community of cyborgs here this is a picture showing my class it's the each member of my class is wearing an apparatus of this infection during the beginning of the class each the power to build the eye cap and then by the end of the class they're building the eye cap and then we play a little game called flash gun quake flash gun quake is a game that's played with real flash guns when you run around and you shoot the flash gun becomes like the gun and you shoot and that's where it brings to life the shooting metaphor here the reality is altered so we all at the beginning of the class altered perception of reality such as here conversation hall and the background is played with a different interpretation of reality and then the third interpretation of reality each of these persists for anybody walking by just looking at it to see the bunch of cyborgs popping flash guns with white light but they don't persist in their eyes but for all of us who are wearing the glasses we get this altered perception of reality that we're in the altered perception of reality persists so that's my project another project is national accountability day that takes place every year on December 24 and on national accountability day we get a large number of people to ordinary cameras to ordinary department stores and photograph ordinary representatives of the very ordinary surveillance paper highway now the notion of national accountability day is very much based on the idea that you see the department store managers that the cameras are there for their own protection they're there to keep the prices down so then we have to explain to the clerks and the managers and so on that the purpose of our cameras for national accountability day is to keep their wages up that requires a little bit of explanation because the cameras keep the prices down due so by virtue of the fact that they present shoplifting and our cameras that keep the wages up due so by presenting credit card fraud you see and the department store managers who feed our credit card company credit card in photographs in that way they could be against our paper fraud and because we prevent the credit card fraud then the credit card companies don't need to charge large cars and could not charge what three or four percent of every transaction that figures out that means the stores make more profit which means that they get more wages so we have provided a variety of projects including a personal safety device the safety glasses that reduce crime you know the kinds of glasses that cut crime here's an example of safety glasses for reduce crime and because you can even see the safety glasses here that reduce crime they wear of these glasses the connecting cable that goes down the shirt connects with the veil blaster and the like and there's a facility for crime production so are there any sort of questions about some of these ideas? just a second professor we've got a number of questions I don't know let's keep this up and see that's enough we still want to be able to see you're just brilliant ok I wish I could start here who have I not called on what do you do for the power professor? well I'm working with some various companies that badly have got the company in France to sell for me and then I have a 50 degree creator in the US that brings him into configuration series parallel combinations distributed around the body and so it's a big research area to keep a large number of computers operational all the time because I like out time particularly at 16 hours a day rather than with 2 hours a day to get from there to the laptop let me hear about a couple other people ask some questions let's see is there any kind of physiological repercussion of where I'm going I've been sort of developing this for about 20 years now and there was some problems that I had with some of the earlier units but lately I've come up with some innovations that allow an ICAP to function without doing damage ICAP is a lot different than a display display devices do result in eye damage and eye strain so for example if you play a traditional wearable computer type display like a wearable TVM type display like you see that there are existing head-mounted displays that you can buy on the market and those do have adverse effects and so I mean reasons for doing ICAP technology are some of the problems that arise with technical great technology Professor we've got time for about 4 more questions so I'm going to take 4 more and we've got our speaker coming on that I don't want to let's see you and the champion for being able to test different technologies that are too loud did you catch that professor I had a little bit of it he was wondering why aren't you using digital media technique I'd be able to understand that I guess because I'm a mother I don't like a lot of modern technology I think we're moving into a very unhumanizing world where technology is humanizing that's in so many ways things like surveillance cameras computers everywhere and computing and ubiquitous surveillance I'm really trying to call into question some of the technology so you might say that I'm trying to tame the monster with a little piece of itself trying to get that to basics I really like the tactile feel of the paper and I like the pan the way it slides across the paper and I like using chalk boards and I like the way the chalk feels and the chalk board and the tactility with it and that's about reality and in many ways when you're using BGA as an output medium in the traditional sense of the sort of power polygremic attack of virus of some kind you're losing touch in many ways with the sort of beauty of the real world just a second professor speaking of viruses I've got a virus scan covering your feeds so just a moment I'm going to rectify that and take two more questions the Mac has lost all touch with reality so it's not coming back we're catching like a fourth of your feed we've got a window covering your feed so I'm going to get two more questions and then we're going to have to wind down just a moment I've already taken some of your questions it's somebody who hasn't even asked some of you that question's already been asked that's a good question what are the costs involved for example what you have on if you can tell us about the cost of your projects initially the cost is very very very high so building the first prototype costs a tremendous amount so there is a great deal of cost involved however my hope is to the manufacturing to build a manufacturing cost down instead of looking at getting my invention manufactured in a large scale at a low cost where the people will be able to afford it because it will be no good if only the big can afford it that is safe only larger organizations than the military industrial can afford it you know it's turned into a yet third type of technology I think what we really need is to bring the cost down with the technology can you show us any of the effects or some of the things you were speaking about earlier I guess I guess it's something IR it's quite similar it's a different iPad that I normally wear for IR and that particular iPad that sees in the IR is very much kind of an iPad that only sees black and white doesn't have color so that iPad doesn't have this beautiful 24-bit color but on the other hand it has that infrared and I guess things like camcorder remote are just looking to see what I've got on here but maybe what I should do really is get the other iPad on at that point in time we'd love to have you back next year and then show us what you're up to so that would be a great opportunity for you to do that let me take another question here he's already addressed that I want somebody else he's already addressed that somebody else somebody else he's already addressed that somebody else I've got a question for you professor I think I'm entitled to one what inspired you to get involved in this type of thing what kind of background did you have and why did you do this in the first place I guess my interest was in creating personal space I was a little bit disturbed by the way technology was going and I didn't really like technology and I provided I guess to create my own personal space the other motivation was kind of photographic in nature I've always been fascinated by light and photography and I wanted to become a camera sort of being a camera as a very existential principle of self determination and battery over one's own destiny so it's kind of a long long story and it's been a great one day excellent I want to thank you for joining us it's been very fun we've got a full house here give it a hand that just kicked ass I've got to say well um thanks a lot bye guys