 First of all, I must congratulate Bapu, Varashyam, and all his gang for inviting a useless designer and UX designer here. So thank you. He asked me to give keynote address. But my key has become so old now. Nobody listens to me. So I thought I will have a discussion instead of keynote address. I think before we start this interaction with Bapu, I have something to say because I don't know whether those questionnaires will bring out those points or not here. So I just open up myself and then let's see how it goes. I'm very bad in impromptu thing. But I have to face my student here. Earlier, he has to face me now. I have to go back. When I go back, yes. Thank you. I'm going to begin with a provocation. I have to say that I come to the term UX designer with some reservation. It does the traditional approach where one investigates how humans interface with product actually for short. Good Donald Norman have done away with yet another design term. We have taught in our design schools that the design process begin with collection of data from all stakeholders, not just physical, but also social, psychological, economical, or ethnographical. Does UX design, by its degree of specialization, detract from the holistic idea of design and the creative challenges it possess in fear of easier goals? In medicine, for example, we have gone from general practitioner to specialist. Each body part has its association with doctors, ophthalmogenes, ENT specialists, neurologists, spinal cord specialists, heart specialists, so forth and so on, all the way down to your feet. A confused patient while making those productionals around the galaxy of specialists began to doubt his real ailment in spending patients from one specialist to another. Doctors show little empathy towards the patient. The reason for my concern is that we run genuine risk of segregating design into too many subfields. Design is not so complex that it cannot be learned with four years of rigorous training. We need to impart training that will make complete designers who can deal with all eventualities. I am surprised that design thinking is being offered as an elective in design school. I feel that designers should be trained to develop his ability to detect the multi-layer problems related to product, product systems, environment. As Professor Bonjibi said, he was my teacher in Germany. And I quote, design is not added value. Design is value. Training that makes a designer an omnipotent person who can solve complex design problems may be the need of the hour. That said, I am aware that like medicine, design has also become complex due to its multidisciplinary content. Today, today's issues are more complex and challenging than any that have come before. Products and product systems are now associated with their interaction with the user. Products are expected to serve not only the function, but also be an experience social and behavior. Social and behavioral science, human cognition, and emotion, sensation and movement, sufficient knowledge to interpret and analyze the data, and an understanding of scientific methods has become very relevant in the process of human-friendly design. In this context, one should examine the potential application of UX design around us. Our daily newspapers are full of stories about failure of our public services and human tragedies due to the negligence and chaltahey attitude. Public officials tend to be seasoned practitioners on methodologies more commonly associated with optimizing the existing services, but are less familiar with the methods and tools associated with innovation such as design thinking. Michael Steinberg, government innovator and the founder, Snow Cone and Hestag UK, has this to say, and I quote, increasingly public sector has to deal with uncertainty rather than the risk. And it is good at managing the risk, but bad in managing the uncertainty. Design offers the capacity to engage with user needs, social needs, and to take a prototyping approach to the solution. This is the way to build a bridge between under uncertainty and the risk, I quote. We in Mumbai experience this phenomenon when 30 or more people died during the stampede at Alpiston railway station, Food Bridge. This is because the absence of productive factor of uncertainty in designing process. The government has introduced massive developmental projects. If this project had to achieve their desired result, large scale analytical studies of user's experience in each of these projects are required before they go into fatigue stage. These projects are background of major development for upgrading the lifestyle of 1.5 billion people of our population. UX designers should take the enormity and the complexity of this project as a challenge. If we have to avoid difficulties that people face, and in many cases death, a well-trained service designer with a good knowledge of UX process is must in the planning teams. It is high time that we include service design into the designs curriculum. In a large and diverse democratic environment like ours, the basic objective of design is to benefit masses and not just few limited privilege view. The GNP is not only yardstick to measure the growth of our nation. Industrialization can democratize consumption and provide for a broad sector of population. This implies access to world of products and services in different areas of everyday life like health, housing, farming, education, transport, to mention few. This emphasis a need to take serious steps to plan directed design and development program to help our vast population. The 12th fire plan has envisaged by our planning commission including more than 30 sectors of for faster, more inclusive, and substantial growth. Each and every sector is helplessly looking for innovative input from designer and design planners. My humble request, therefore, to organize of the seminar would be that next year should be entirely devoted to designing and design UX design and public sector. And invites could be planners, decision makers, and ministers from the government. Thank you. Exactly like the very similar points. I think we should take it forward. So they wanted to have this design education for public sector. So we have given a proposal to have a design hub at Hyderabad and they agreed to take it forward. And we already started working with traffic and safety. The team of UX India, we already involved. And I would definitely take this as for the next conference. Maybe the theme could be that. I think it's really good solution. So I've been receiving several SMS. One of the most of them are asking, the first question is, what is your secret to your evergreen energy? Oh, I don't know. I wanted to see my face in the mirror. So I don't think of your age. So what is actually inspiring you? Continuously you're motivated from the beginning. Maybe my wife. Yes. In fact, that's a question. The next question was that, you have really influenced design education in India. So who was your influence, Mrs. Narkini or ma'am? Along with Mrs. Narkini, there are many, many people. I think my teachers, my mentors. I think it was, it has come when I was born, I think. And yeah, you get inspired by many things around you. If you openly see what's happening around you and stuff. You feel that we should also put yourself into that. Definitely. I think that's one of the influences. I would like to share that. To leading to that, I've actually read your first day at Ulm School in Germany, first day of your class. Would you like to share what has happened to you that day? Very funny things happens there. I think I enjoyed my thing more in German school than in Indian school of art here. My first day in my class, I studied in Hochschule für Gestaltum, a school of design in Ulm. I think you almost be heard about that school. Very famous school in design, where Max Biel and all those big people. It was a continuation of the Bauhaus. And my first day was, it was in November. You can understand, yeah, November snowing outside. And I was with my nylon shirt. Somebody told me you buy all your dresses there in Germany, because you get the fashion, or top post fashion there, up to date with the fashion there. So I thought, I will go to Germany, and I'll have all my winter coats and everything there. But I was not knowing that there was a minus 20 cent degree there. So when I entered with that thing in the class, I was surprised. Everybody was silent and looking at me. And within a few seconds, I was being flooded with the snowballs on my face, yeah, all throughout the class. And class was made messy, the whole thing was. I was really surprised. And that has really developed a very good relation with my classmates and sort of a very good bonding. It has created with this first experience. Because I was really afraid to go in. First of all, I was not knowing the German language, because somebody told me it's better you learn your language there rather than here. Because I was already one month late. So with that sort of thing, that's quite a good experience. And then I become, first thing they taught me was two German letters. One is hungrik, it's been hungrik, and it's been thirsty. That means he thought all Indians are coming there. They are always hungry. So hungrik, when I am hungrik, I should say hungrik. And when I am thirsty, I should say thirsty. So this first two words I learned in Germany is that for my students. So I would like to share my first day in my school, like design school IDC. And he was my professor. My first day was like literally terrible. He was a tiger. And people say, no, do, no, do, no. And we're all used to see. So what we have happened is we just came to the hostels. And with the first day, I think Prasad is also here. He actually recognized that. So we all came from different regions, like Kerala, Maharashtra, Amdra. So we were from different schools, so different cultures. So people used to come with polygene bags, like briefcases. I don't know why people used to come with briefcases and big bags with all the odd material. And we used to have a big table around. We used to sit around. And we kept everything on the top. So he came in with that. What do you guys think? This is not an art school. This is a design school. And we were on the second floor. It threw everything out from the second floor, from the window. So what has happened? Everything we kept, all our material, everything. And everything was clean. We kept quiet. And we can't talk anything. We can't say anything. And we don't know when we want to go back and to collect. We don't know that it will be there or not. So that actually really influenced me and also my classmates, I'm sure, that how to be organized. If you are organized at your workspace and the mind works really clear, and it's actually the first step for us. It really helped us, sir, it impressed us. I'm not that strict now anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I have a- I myself diluted because of the environment. Yeah. So I have another question on that, but before we go into that, so one of the questions I got is a journey of design in India. So how design education and practice emerged and changed over the years? Let you know from your experience. I think it's very natural that a student from old, he comes out as a clinical designer, you know? Everything, he sees white and gray is here, nothing like that. But there's a reason behind all these things. Ulm, my training was that just design your product as true with yourself. It's a Gandhian philosophy. Nothing more, nothing less. Just do it whatever you want. No adding of labels or anything like that. And that was the same philosophy Ulm was following here. That product is a part of your environment. It should subdued. It should not come like, like it should not exhibit himself like that. And that is because of many reasons that your decisions are very correct, logical. They are human. And the forms are also very true to the dysfunction. And I think this philosophy was very much appropriate for our environment here in India, I think. And I thought the Ulm approach was correct approach to follow here in India because it saves the material, it saves the redundancy in the form, it saves a lot of things. And where that time our economy was going if we don't have any possibilities of luxury of having a lot of materials and sort of things. Everywhere we had to find out an economical solution. And I thought this is the right approach, the Ulm approach for our economy that time. And that's why I have to follow this approach of purity of things, you know. Purity of forms, purity of technical things. Minimum wastage of material, all these things. Plus the human factors, ergonomics and all those things. So the things started from that culture. And it has been spread, Ulm in India also was very much because Professor Ullo was professor of this visual, all these people were there from Germany. And they also brought this, that culture in NID. So we were all working together. My first exposure to NID was with Ullo and those people. And we work on some sort of ideology for our approach to design. So that time, this particular philosophy was very appropriate and that has, I think, a good luck that everybody followed during that time. Otherwise I couldn't have said very different things into Indian design and things. So if you didn't go to Ulm, how you could have influenced Indian design now? Pardon me? If you didn't go to Ulm, how you would have influenced Indian design? I don't know. We have seen all the design as a McDonald's here. We were McDonald's, you know. The Americans would have been influenced by our design approach. When I was there studying, a lot of criticism in our school about American styling, extra styling like that car should look like a rockets and sort of thing. So without taking care of safety factors but more this symbolic factors on product. So we level on the product. Your pen should look like this or all the decorative things should look like that sort of object, some Egyptian object or something like that. So all these stickers were put on those functional objects. And that was, Ulm was very much against all these things. This styling with the American styling. So that could have been done. So when we were in terms of American styling here, without knowing the benefits and this. So you have designed a lot of exterior, I think that time it's called exterior design for consumer products. In 60s, I think most of the consumers in India used your products. So what was the design perception on people? Yeah, I think when I started practicing here, I think that time this design, product design was completely new. No one was knowing. Most of the time people used to get a product from abroad, open it, give it a new terminal, reverse engineering or something like that. They used to name it and you know they had to put it and that has become their research object. Open the foreign products, open it and do exactly what they have done. So they had a high scope in redesigning or innovation or and that's one of the reason why we have left behind this innovation thing. In industry we never had this innovation culture we had developed because I have seen in Brown or in Phillips abroad the way they give the time, their energy and sort of the seriousness about the new innovations and sort of. That culture was never followed here in our industry. Now they understood that they talk about design. Innovation doesn't come by hearing lectures and sort of thing. You have to develop that culture within the organization with your engineers and give them scope, you give them time, give them opportunity and resources. Then they think comes up your new products will come out. But that time it was not, each product was that time important. And then whatever you do is just simple thing. I remember I was invited by ambassador car to redesign. I was so happy where they have designing a car now here at that stage. When I went there they asked me to design the bonnet and some silver thing and that sort of thing. I said, forget it, yeah I don't want to do it. So they thought that you just put some nail polish to the elephant and you become a horse or something like that. Something like that, their expectation, yeah. So that was the thing. They're thinking about design, that design means just a decoration to make the object very beautiful and sort of thing, yeah. So the things were different. I remember I was designing a water cooler for blue star that time, yeah. And when I send my drawing with, I thought the geometrical drawing, they will understand better. But they couldn't understand. So I had to go there, be there in the thing, make the prototype there. They were not knowing even that time what is the fiberglass and sort of thing. So all this thing was very new that time. And in that sort of environment, you have to work as a designer. You are a vendor, you have to search for vending thing, you are a total designer there. Not only design, but you have to see who can do what and sort of thing. Go around the market and look for those people and sort of, which was very different. That's true, yeah. So now it is, you are very lucky that you have got all those facilities now. So I think you have started product design at NID and IDC industrial design center, hardcore technology and engineering school, IIT in industrial technology. How did you influence this technology driven school to start a design school? Because I think most of you all have problem, right? If you are working with companies, even just to start with setting up a team itself is difficult, convincing engineers is difficult. Setting up a lab itself is so much difficult. You know, usability lab, convincing these leaders and technologists. How did you do that? Yeah, it's very, people say it was a miracle to start a design program in IIT, yeah. But it was not a miracle. I think it was a need of that time because when government decided to have this program, product design or industrial design program in IIT, there are many reasons for that thing. The first reason was that that time the engineers was having a lot of unemployment. Our industry was really going in a bad patch and sort of thing. So early there is employment for engineers and so government are what we can do with this engineers. We can give them new role now. And that was again big headache for me to train engineers as a designer, you know. Because they come with all mental blocks and they will ask you why I should do that and why all sort of things were there. But I took that challenge. I thought that, yes, we'll start this sort of thing. Let's see how it works. IIT because of this problem, it has come to IIT. But then it was my luck or good luck that I got a very good faculty. I got very good directors that time to run this program. They were very open-minded. So the first thing I did in IIT was that in all the MTech program, there were 75% lectures and 25% lab. I completely turned around. Product design program, 25% lectures, 75% practice. So that was new for them to think about that MTech level program could be like this. So this model I had to change is I had to convince them. I had to bring all the faculty, professors from other department to see what is happening here, how they are studying the objects, how they are researching and sort of thing. And then they realized this is equivalent to MTech level program. So once they understood when they are convinced, then the things become much easier to run this program. That's what you did in the 60s. I did in the 60s. That's a great thing, yeah. So general question is like when you say the influential leaders, the general traits, you know, most of these influential speakers and leaders, they have a great voice and personality. What has actually a sense like you, how did you, you know, influence people without having that, you know, those traits? What was your, you know, I don't know, my voice is like, you know, it's like a lady's, yeah? So whenever I want to phone, I say, oh Mrs. Narakani, I want to talk with Professor Narakani. So nothing to do with my voice. But maybe I'm much informal with everybody. So it doesn't, I have not created that sort of wall in between myself and my director. And there's also your fortune that you get good people around you to make decisions. So that makes my life easier. First thing I did was that I took my director all around the world to school design schools. So when he see those design students, compare my school, he will understand where we are. So all the decision after was become very easy to take it. Most of the decision in those government were out of the thing. It's not a regular decision, you know, particularly in design department. Whatever you do is a special case. So I had to write because being a design thing school, I had to have this sort of thing differently. And it happens, it's happened like that. And if you look at any right now, the schools, okay, we want to run a certification course or a couple of months diploma and the charge, use money, everything is commercialized right now. But what we learned from you is totally different philosophy. Who do you like to share when you started this IDC? What was your philosophy? No, my philosophy was not to compromise the finesse of the things. And whatever you do, whether you run a canteen or whether you run the classroom or whether you run some program, it has to be done to the highest level. So there I never compromise right from the beginning. And that has made the culture. So whenever whatever you do has to be perfect. It should not be any lack or anything like that. And whether you do your assignments, whether you do your other work or sing, it has to be that quality and sort of thing. And how to reach that quality, how to develop that mindset, that to bring out various other types of people and interact with them, with your students and sort of thing. That was very important because design was completely new there in IIT environment itself. So to create that sort of environment within the thing. So I had to participate in their program, I had to design their program so they know what is the standard and sort of thing, how it has to be planned and all sort of. So all these things, you take them within yourself. So you also had the socially consciousness. Yeah, there's another thing that arrived from the beginning. My approach was that make the designer a socially conscious designer. Not because that demands, India demands that sort of approach here. Because there was so much, so many problems. Only industry cannot solve this thing. Only designers themselves, they involve into this sort of area. And that was one of the thing which, that is because my diploma project was like that in old, in Germany. I wrote a thesis on how a design could help in developmental plans in a country like India. And I had taken each of this section and I saw the relations of design to their development and sort of. So that was the background behind my, this thing to start this school and the program. So actually one important thing when you started school in Gohati, IIT Gohati. So you introduced bamboo. So people thought, what is it bamboo? Right now we are talking about VR here and bamboo and all, why bamboo? But actually change the economy in that state. So would you like to share what was the reason you actually, how did you choose? Yeah, I think whenever you start any design program, I mean anywhere, you have to find out the uniqueness of the thing here. You can start the same program in Bombay whatever I did, I should do it in Gohati. Their problems are different, their environments are, their economy is different. And how you try to support that set up. And you know, Assam is very much rich in bamboo and cane and sort of thing. But it is not useful in proper sense. They were using it for making this basketry and that sort of thing, which is not so monetary beneficial. It can keep those viewers very substantial sort of income and sort of. So I had to find out the ways. So I thought that why can't we use utilitarian product in bamboo and cane and sort of thing. So I completely developed a whole system of hospital furniture in bamboo and cane, school furniture in bamboo, so that this can go into various sectors and sort of thing. And this viewers of those craftsmen can earn some more money and sort of thing. But for that, I had to develop that sort of culture within IIT to develop craftsmen and those sort of thing. Within IIT was again a most difficult job. The first craftsman I employed in IIT, Gohati was level on the other technical staff. It was difficult to convince. How a craftsman, which without having any formal education can be an engineer or something that come to that level of engineer's payment and sort of. But I had to convince them that they are master craftsmen. They are equivalent to any of your engineers and sort of. So this way you develop that sort of confidence with them. And once they saw, when they see come there, they do their work and when you see those things, they understand the value of those people. And this way I developed it. The first thing I did was that how to develop this sort of sensitivity towards the material among the students. Because they are going to carry out this program. This fineness in the product design. So I changed the assignments also. The types of assignments they should take it and all sort of thing. Whole academic format was changed in I think what it is. Just to be relevant to their environment and the needs and so on. So actually there are so many text messages are coming. So time is less. So I would like to take quick questions from them. So the times are changing. For example, we started with product design. We called it visual communication. Then animation also came in the middle. And then slowly interaction design, UX. And now we are service design. Things keep changing. So to be relevant in this time changes. So what are the important things for a designer we never should leave that aside of? What are the qualities, very important qualities to have? I do not know, but what I feel is that the grammar of design is same. You can use it for film, you can use it for products, you use it for writing a story or whatever it is. Now if you follow that grammar, those ethics, qualities of design and sort of thing. I think all these things changes will come. But this is again for use of humanity. And that aspect you understand. How to see those things as you design and all those AI design and all those things. I think one should not bother about this is going to change because of the technology, because of the environment. All these things are changing every day. Of course, one thing is changing is our hunger. And I think till that time, it's still in contact. We don't have to think artificial, think food. So I think things will go on. So the things are very rapid way changing. Like today we are talking about AR, VR, artificial intelligence, machine learning. So how do we be relevant in this? Because when we were taught, you are only purely design. Now the technology is also overpowering. So the next generation designer, do you think we need to have that combination of this? Or what is your opinion on that? I think one has to see this for development very sensitively. But particularly in India, when we are really looking for a massive jobs sort of thing, whether it's automation or this artificial intelligence will economize the employment aspect and sort of thing. And how we can develop. So we have to very select to where we should use this technology. When there are risky job or very dangerous thing or unhealthy job, we can use this automotive, robotics sort of things, products. But where we need extra jobs and sort of things, we have to be very clear. I think we should not limit to those contexts. So we should keep that intact. Slowly it will integrate with them instead of jump. I think people will revolutionize. They revolt against you. So they don't have the jobs. Even now I see design is still saying emerging profession. But in 60s, how did you choose design as your profession? Maybe I don't know how I choose. It happens like that. By accident, I went to attend someone lecture in Bombay. The lecture was attended by Indian Chamber of Commerce. And they have invited one designer from Britain. And I happened to attend. And he talked about designing windows and sort of thing. So I thought, why can't we change? I was working as a art director in a organizing firm there at that time. I just finished my art school education. And I thought, yes, I got still time to take. So one of my colleague, Mr. my mentor, in fact, Yashwant Chaudhary, who just came from Switzerland at that time, he had this program. And he was working with Siva. I said, yes, he was enjoying this in wool. Nobody was knowing about industrial design at that time. I had a very hard time to convince my parents to know what is industrial design. Because that time no products were there, no mixers, and all these things were there. So I had to explain them what is the industrial design. So nearest thing was that I told him I had to design this bathroom, furniture, toilets, and hand machines and sort of thing. Then he said, why you have to go to Germany for that? I know very good plumbers here. He will tell you about it. So this was the stage. I said, I will just take a chance. I want to go there. Because my friends said that I had feeling about three-dimensional things. Because that time I did a number of exhibitions for industry. So he thought I should go there. So I went there for one year. I said, I'll get an experience. Then I'll come back. Once I go there, I thought it was not enough. Then I got some scholarship and sort of go. I said, I will finish my four years there, double it when I do. And then this is what will happen. Your destiny was different. So I think it looks like I have received more than 200 text messages. And we have other talks that are lined up. So I'm going to ask the last question. So what kind of direction and advice would you like to give to end designers? I think they should alert about what is happening all around them. They should also expose themselves to multi-level technological information. They should get more knowledge now. It's becoming product design is a knowledge product. So instead, just looking for the former or aesthetic aspect of design, aesthetic comes at the end, end result of all those things. So you should expose yourself to various areas of interdisciplinary subjects and sort of. Put more time on that because next generation products will be completely different. As you've seen, know that smart products, I think for that we should become also smart to design smart. So I think there's a lot of scope, challenges are there. And I think we should work. I wish I should have been 20 years younger today. I could have done that. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much for accepting our invitation. And you were here for the last four days. You've been observing. Yeah, I wanted to know this. What is the US? So everybody is talking about US. But I came to know what is the full form of US. So any advice for this conference to be more? No, that's what I said that conference should now take over more public service areas and sort of thing. Because in India, those are the things we are missing. We have to do so. We have seen a lot of people are dying just for our carelessness or lethargy and sort of thing. How you develop this, I guess this lethargy among those bureaucrats who takes the disease, who doesn't know, who are not interested to develop and innovate or anything. So I think maybe we should take that role. Just interact with them. If you do that, I think nothing like it. Sure, sir. We'll definitely take your advice. He has drawn it when he was student here. They used to do only that thing instead of studying here. So it's drawn by me. Thank you.