 Good morning. I welcome members of the public, our witnesses, and my colleagues to the fourth meeting of the Devolution Further Powers Committee for 2016. Can I just remind everyone to switch off their mobile phones and put them in an order? At least, certainly, I can't hear them. At the beginning, I should also give the apologies for Tavish Scott, who can't be here with us today. Agenda item 1 is an evidence-taking session on the post-study work visas. I can very much warmly welcome the witnesses to the meeting this morning. Mr Mowloon Butch and Mrs Mary Jocky are both former participants in the fresh talent scheme. We have Lucy Flynn, the international officer of South Lanarkshire College, and Alan Mackay, who is the deputy vice principal of the international and director of international office at Edinburgh University. I propose to start off the discussion, particularly in the impact on the economic impact on both your institutions, Lucy and Alan, but also the potential impact on the wider Scottish economy. I would like to understand what reduction in the number of students who wish to study in Scotland is a direct result of absence on any post-study visa incentive being available, what that looks like, what the impact of the closure of tier 1 visas has had on the institutions that you work in. If you can let the committee have a bit more understanding of what you would consider the closure of tier 1's impact on the wider economic growth issues in Scotland, that would be very helpful. Alan Mackay, do you want to kick that off? Yes, certainly. What we are seeing across the Scottish sector, and the statistics clearly bear that out, is static or flatlining in terms of growth in terms of non-EU student enrolments. The recent higher education statistics authority figures for Scotland are showing somewhere, depending on the way that you interpreted the statistics of a 1 or a 2 per cent growth on last year, with pretty steady declines in many of the key nations that are fast emerging, fast growing and sending large numbers of students out overseas. If you look at India, for example, that decline in Scotland in a three-four-year period for the university sector was declined by 63 per cent. If you look at Nigeria, I think it was somewhere in the region of about 20 to 30 per cent. I need to get an exact figure on that. For Pakistan, it is down 45 per cent. You can point to growth, when you are talking about a few hundred students additional every year. If you look at the UK sector picture as well, it is 1 per cent growth. When you compare that to competitor nations in terms of the first attraction of that talent, of which post-study work is a very important part of that and the wider immigration system, the United States, up 10 per cent, Germany up 7 per cent, Canada similar in terms of double-digit growth. When you start to look at that in terms of the global context of OECD growth in this area in terms of students moving around the world studying outside their country, it is 7 per cent a year. I think that there is clear economic impact there in terms of Scotland in its sector. When you look at the fees, the fees are worth the Scottish higher education of a year £402 million. The additional economic spend of students when they are here, where they live, where they shop and their wider spend in the Scottish society a year is over £444 million a year. You are not that shy of £1 billion a year being contributed to Scotland's economy and the impact that that delivers. Any measures that seek to restrict that flow, which we are clearly seeing, I have a comment that will come back to a quote from the director of the British Council in the UK and the words that he has used just last week in terms of what is happening. I think that there is real concern there for what that means for economic growth in Scotland and particularly around post-study work, where we are looking at this as a pipeline. Universities do not operate in isolation, they have direct impacts on the Scottish economy in terms of the development of talent and the researchers, for example, that we have at my institution. There are lots of benefits there academically, financially and culturally. You start to see impacts there when you have the system that we currently have in place, which is simply not competitive compared to other nations throughout the world. I can come back with very clear examples as to why I do not think that that offer is competitive. I think that you are just back from China, if my class information is correct. Do you want to respond to that? I would reiterate much of what Alan has said, although for me it is easier for me to speak specifically about South Lanarkshire College. There are fewer statistics about the further education sector. For us, it is a very challenging climate. As you will see from our evidence, we have gone from having up to 150 international students in a year down to one. We made an active decision to stop recruiting in areas where we had traditionally recruited because it was becoming too challenging and too costly for us as an organisation such as we are. International students would pay fees of up to £6,500 per year. They would also spend £10,000 per year each within the local economy, so the impact is enormous even within East Kilbride itself. As Alan said, universities do not operate in isolation, so while an HND is a qualification in its own right, many students coming to college would then go on to university, so that pathway is being lost. Can I tease out a bit further? The percentage is there, Alan. Very helpful. Having looked at the paper that was provided, USA, Australia, Canada, 11 per cent, Germany, 7 per cent growth in Scotland somewhere between 1 and 2, what does that mean in numbers terms? For Scotland, what does that mean? If we have had a 1 per cent growth, what does that mean in numbers in terms of the number of students who are still coming? Have we got a feel for that? I think that what we are talking about is the hundreds, so what you are saying is a clear flattening off over the past three to four years, which we think, and not just we in terms of the universities but others would attribute that as well to the removal of post-study work as being one of the key factors. It is not the only one, but it is a very, very important one, along with other changes within the immigration system that have made this and has also created the perception, which is vitally important, that this is not as welcoming an offer when people look at it and get into the real detail compared to other countries throughout the world. We are talking about hundreds when you start to look. You can interpret the figures in different ways. When you look at the higher education sector in Scotland and the top 10 non-EU sending nations to this country, you are into a few hundred students. That is the increase, the few hundred. I think that it is somewhere between six and seven hundred students when I look at the higher education statistics authority for the top 10 non-EU or non-EA sending nations to Scotland. You are talking a few hundred. That is during a global boom, as I have said already and I have said in the evidence. This is a period of huge growth in terms of the number of students studying outside their home country for tertiary education. I know you said a few hundred, so that means that it is a bit flexible. The numbers could be three hundred, there could be seven hundred, but if it was five hundred for instance that we were having and we matched the growth of Canada, Australia and the USA, we would be talking about five thousand people who were missing out on it. Would that be a reasonable thing? I think that you can look at the increases in certain fast emerging economies as well across the world where you see a very large shift in terms of simple demographics. That is the thing. There is a ballooning middle class who are demanding education. If you look at Asia, you are talking about hundreds of millions of additional people to 2030. There is a big demand there for education outside their own country. When you look at those figures, during a global period of boom from many of those countries and economies, relative to the size, shape and scale of what Scotland's offer is, that growth, I would say, on a report card perhaps should be doing better, particularly when you compare it to other countries. The point that is made about the college to university pathway is very important. My institution, the largest number of applications that we receive every year are from Edinburgh College. The Australian education system benefited hugely from a pipeline of students being brought in that articulate from college through to university. What we have seen in the college sector, not just in Scotland but in other institutions here but in the UK, is a complete and utter collapse. There are pathways there as well. When you look at the figures, you would expect to see more than 1 per cent during what is happening across the world. You can look at the OECD figures in migration of students for tertiary level education. In particular, where the impact is pronounced, that means that that feeds through into skill gaps in the Scottish economy. Yes, and there is clear evidence there as well on how that plays out in Scotland, particularly around the STEM areas, science, technology, engineering and mathematics. On the digital and IT side of that, there is one report that has been included in evidence that has identified that gap in Scotland of 10,000 jobs a year. When you look at the ability for us to source some of that, perhaps as a country within the local employment markets, that is not there. Then you look at the opportunities to retain some of the talent that we are attracting here, which is the world's best talent from across the globe. Not being able to retain that, you have a pretty significant problem. There have again been reports that identify skill shortages in Scotland in the medium to long term that we really need to think about. Anything that you want to add to that at this stage? It is not simply the removal of post-study work for students studying in further education. There are big differences in the terms and conditions of a visa for students studying at a higher education institution and a further education institution, albeit that those students are studying higher education courses at a college. A student studying at a further education college has no right to work while they are in the UK. In order to articulate on to university, they are required to leave the UK and return to their home country to make their application for a visa to university. Those are all reasons why our offering is less and less attractive to international students. No, Duncan has got a supplementary. We will get to you eventually, but this is an area that we need to cover inevitably at the beginning. My local college, James Watt, reached its peak on foreign students about four or five years ago. We have tried to get to the point where we acknowledge that changes and limitations have affected our offer. We need to do more than just address the changes and limitations that were presented with here. The offer that we had through our colleges and then into university was already damaged and diminishing. Additionally, it has been impacted on the changes and positions. Even if we change those changes and limitations, our offer has still got to be better. We have to compete with Canada and America and to use our colleges more effectively. We have to do more than just challenge the restrictions as we see them now. I think that there is work to be done in promoting further education colleges as a legitimate pathway to university. Perhaps in firming up articulation agreements with universities so that students studying on a higher national diploma programme have a guaranteed entry to university. Those programmes are in place, but they are maybe not across the board. It is an interesting point in that collaboration because my observation at that time is that we are always competing for those students and that each and every college was chasing after them, spending a lot of money as well and criticising after that. It did not seem to me that there would be much co-ordination there. I can only speak for South Lanarkshire College. For example, a number of students studying our HND construction management in our last cohort went on to study at Glasgow Caledonian University and successfully completed their degree. Those articulations are happening. They are just maybe not consistent across each college. Why did the college sector withdraw in the main? How many are pursuing courses that you are now? They are not as common as they used to be, are they, in the further education sector? A lot of colleges gave up on it, did they not? Yes, but I think that that has to be viewed in the context of the ever-changing UKVI regulations. Only in that respect? It is certainly a large factor. You could not continue to plough the amount of money to recruiting international students and the money that it costs to travel and to build the relationships overseas with partner colleges or to work with good agents. That all takes a lot of time and a big investment in terms of staff. We have saw a disinvestment in the further education sector as well. I presume that the impact on that is... Yes? Yes. I know that I have other people in supplementaries, but I am keen that we get in at some stage Mullen and Mary, because otherwise they are not getting to contribute. I will come back to this particular area, but I said to Stuart Maxwell that we would let him in in regard to specifics. I will be used to your issues to do with Mary in the future. Alan, in your written evidence to submission to the committee, you said that there is little doubt that the closure of the previous work-study route has been one of the most damaging changes in UK immigration policy for the higher education sector. You said one of the most damaging, and you mentioned earlier that it is not the only issue. Beyond the fact that there is a lot of work that is being done in the future, I think that there is a lot of work that is being done in the future. You said that there is a lot of work that is being done in the future, and you mentioned earlier that it is not the only issue. Beyond the changes, what other issues have affected the flatlining of the number of students who have come to Scotland and the UK? There is a range of factors. We have heard about the articulation routes or the pathways from the Scotland's colleges through to universities. Bereich 2. The difficulty is now created around that. Having to leave college to go back overseas to apply to come back to go to university, that is not exactly a good pipeline. Almost total collapse of the English language sector for non-EA students as well. Many students academically qualified coming just to top up their language and then move into college or university. I can't put a percentage on that. There is evidence on that that shows a very steep decline there Mae'r cyfleoedd ymgyrchol yn dda i, ac, oherwydd, mae'r gw Roosevelt yn f점 yn ymnangor iawn i'r gweld ymdweithio, ac mae'r cyfleoedd yn gweld yn gweld gyda i gael eu rhag思 i yn gweld am ddigwydd. Fy flasfer ynglynthpyth arno y planet ymweld i'r cyfleoedd ac i'r cyfleoedd ymweld i'r cyfleoedd i gael y dyptyd ac i'r cyfleoedd ymweld i'r cyfleoedd i'r cyfleoedd—cymdeithasliadau cyfrifiadau ymweld i'r cyfleoedd. Mae'n rwyntio nhw yw bobl hwnnw archeil fdal achosi sicrhau fan hygynch nhw'n gwneud. Felly wrth gael gweithio hyn, rof i agoi'r ffordd, flynyddo i gael hyn dda siarad gyda'i serf Sir Richard. Mae cyfleoedd sefydlai yn enraddedol a hacer yn g reilion. Mae gafodd gennym ni allan gyda gweithgolion. Mae gennych gynes y gallwn ni dda. Gyda chi'n mynd i清es y rhan y copr twicellau bobl. Fyrdi'r gweld cyflaun, proflessness family gasol. a chryfu yng ngynhwyl iaith iaith i'i soliad am gyflethau iaith, ac ar gyfer gyda ni'n ei wneud eu dyn nhw i'ch ganchoniau arddangosol i ddeudio i'r stffanolau yn ddif ei charwysTON pan ni'n ei wneud i'w gweithio yn gy choices o ddigwydd mwyichio ar gyfer y gwrthu yn ei fwrdd. Rydyn ni'n meddwl ei gallu bod gyda'n gwyffridd o gymryd o'r cofnodol gyrthomieic, ac mae'n adnod o hyn o'r cyffredinol i gyrddrwyntiol sy'n gweithio mewn gyffredinol ar gwrthwawr i'n cael ei fanfaith i gweithio ariedd ond trwyd o gweithio gyda y gweithreid. Ieg maen nhw'n chi'n oed i gweithreid o'u cyffamau yn ein dyfodol thatidol am eu ddologol ond yn frydynt i ddod o'u gwneud. Olwch chi i gweithreid o'u cofnith, gweithreid o'u cofnith, gweithreid o'u offer? Yn amser, mae hi'n gweithreid o'u cofnith, Kleinwch chi i gweithreid o'u coffnith? ..duwfn hasch unless you've outlined some of them earlier. You've reiterated your view in terms of the written submission about the major impact is the changes that we've seen in UK immigration policy. For example, on Indian New Papy he says that 50 per cent plus declined over recent years Indian enrolments, but United States in the last year has seen a 29.4 per cent increase. How much of that kind of shift, that's a major shift there, is down to just the immigration changes and how much is down to the other bits and pieces? My argument on that would be that a large part of that has been down to the removal of post-study work but also other changes that have occurred within the immigration system that I think makes the offer less attractive, more restrictive and less competitive than when people are comparing, contrasting, they have choice, they can go to other countries. When you look at that, that adds up to make it less attractive than it was before. So we can look at lots of things. My institution is spending hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds a year having to check that students are attending and engaging their courses. We now have the spectre of exit data being used to ensure that people depart the United Kingdom after they've completed their studies and some statistical unreliable evidence there about the number of students that apparently are remaining in the United Kingdom after their studies illegally, which I don't think is reliable statistical evidence. So I think it goes back to today's focus obviously in post-study work. There's no doubt at all the other changes that have taken place and some of that has impacted very significantly in English language in the college sector across the UK and Scotland. There is also an impact at the UK level. The quote earlier that I mentioned just very briefly, this is the director of higher education at the British Council Thursday, 14 January, it is alarming that the UK's 1 per cent growth is so small when compared to our competitors. He goes on to quote, verbatim quote, that is now a clear trend of the UK's global market share declining when compared to other countries and we need to take urgent steps to address this and stem this decline. So it's not just universities, it's other organisations as well are saying, this is small, this is growth but at the very smallest level if any 1 per cent during a period when you should be seeing much, much more significant growth in that migration of talent to the UK and to Scotland. Given what you've said and the evidence that has been submitted to the committee, wouldn't it be your opinion that there doesn't seem any likelihood certainly in the short to medium term of any change in UK Government policy in this area in terms of changing or going back to the way that it was? If that is your view, is it the case that you think that Scotland actually needs to have its own system, a system in place that effectively would allow us to attract students in the way that we certainly used to and would give us that competitive advantage over some of the other competing English-speaking language countries in particular? I didn't mean you meant Lucy, but I said that earlier, so I assumed there was going to be. I mean, we'll reply equally to both. I'll go quickly on this and maybe that's something to return to. Yeah, we should be looking at options and there are options here that we can have both for Scotland and it could be tied into specific skills shortages in Scotland where you can match the two up and there are practical measures that can be taken and we've already heard some of that from employers and also legal firms as well that have submitted evidence to the Scottish Affairs Committee on this. There are new ways that next week you will have landlord right to rent checks. These are landlords checking the immigration status of people in the UK, whether they can get access to housing in England and Wales. That starts next week, so you've got severe penalties there if that's not being checked. In terms of where people go if they are staying on in Scotland and maybe not staying on in Scotland, there are measures there that would serve to stop that happening. There are things like income tax codes, there are biometric residence permits that could clearly state where somebody's permission to work is within a specific part of the UK. Both for the UK and also for Scotland, we need to be looking at clear options for how a targeted and focused approach to that benefits Scotland, Scotland, not just universities and colleges but our economy. When you think of that, simple fact, where do businesses tend to invest? Look at some of the world's most successful cities and environments across the world, it's where there is talent and where there is that immersion of global talent. That's where you start to see big businesses invest because they know they can get access to high value talent. Simple practical steps could be taken if there was the will to look at some of those options. There are options that could be explored both for Scotland and also at the UK level. We have a wealth of evidence on what that might look like. Lucy, for the further education sector, would a Scotland-only scheme—it looks like we can't have a UK scheme that involves post-study work visas—is a Scotland-only scheme something that the further education sector would welcome? I think that we would welcome it. I think that we would like to make the case very clearly that higher national diplomas are something that should be covered by any post-study work visa scheme. Seeing them, as I have said, as a qualification in their own right, which are developed in conjunction with employers, so we know that students going out into employment with a higher national diploma are well qualified to help to meet the needs of the job market in Scotland and also, again, as a feeder into universities. I will direct my questions to Mary and Mullen. I should say here on the record that Mary and I have met previously, and Mary first contacted me to ask me to come and join in planting trees with the Kenyans-Scots community. She does a lot of work promoting cultural cohesion and community cohesion, and I have met her subsequently learning to throw the javelin at Medell Bank. I think that it is fair to say that Mary has brought far more than her academic abilities to Scotland, and I am sure that you have done the same to Mullen. We will hear more about that later, but I just wondered if you could tell us a bit more about your experiences. How did you find out about the fresh talent initiative? Was it easy to apply? What was your experience of being granted leave to remain? If you could just cover a couple of those issues for us? I came to Scotland in 2007 to study a master's in social work in the University of Stirling. When I came, I was unaware of the scheme, but the international office was very keen to let me know about the scheme and how I could apply. It was very important for me because the degree on itself wasn't directly transferable back to Kenya, and I needed the experience which then I could build on to go and empower my communities back home. So there wasn't any transition for me if I finished the degree and tried to get into employment because the work permit would have been quite problematic to get because I needed to be earning a certain salary, and I don't think an employer would have taken me on board having no prior knowledge about who I was or what my work capability was. So the post study gave me that transition to be able to have the two years to kind of actually prove myself to my employer that I'm worth going through the hassle that they have to go through and apply for a work permit for an EU or a UK employee. So I was very grateful to have this opportunity to be able to actually work in UK and start gaining the experience which I felt was quite worthwhile and continue contributing, not just economically but also culturally and socially, as well as bringing more a bit of diversity also in my workplace which my colleagues decided to actually appreciate even today. So I would say if it wasn't for the fresh talent I would have had to leave UK immediately because the tier one which was the highly skilled immigrant scheme, again I hadn't gotten the points that I needed to be on that scheme either. So unless I was applying immediately to further my studies there wasn't actually any other transition so I was very grateful to have the fresh talent to offer me the two years to study. Thank you for this opportunity to speak today. I originally come from Mumbai, India. Let me just run you through the steps and give you the other side of the coin or what goes through a student's mind when choosing a place or study, choosing a university. Five years ago when I was sitting with a group of friends deciding to come and do further studies I said to my friends that look I'm going to do a master's outside of India somewhere I need the experience. My friend said to me oh yes I'm doing the same and my third friend was sitting silent I said but you're not discussing where you are going you're discussing where and what you want to do. We looked at our friends and said of course it's UK it's a no-brainer. The reason we said this is because we know that the quality of universities in UK is great the legacy is great the reputation is fantastic. That's one choosing UK was not the problem choosing which university within the UK that's when the research starts and just to give you a little background and a little perspective on what we go through when we choose these steps. First of all we look at the tuition fees for example in my particular course I did my master's in strategic marketing from the university of Glasgow in 2010. The fees was £12,000 which equates to 1.2 million rupees that's one. Then you look at accommodation you look at how the public transport is what is the cost of living you consider all this. My accommodation was £450 a month that is rupees 45,000 a month which is more than the average wage. Then you look at living expenses because you don't just come without any cushion of any financial background so you come with £2,000 extra that's rupees 200,000 and you come with extra miscellaneous expenses of £1,000 so that all equates just even before entering the country of about £20,400 which equates to two over two million rupees. Now two million rupees is equivalent to buying a house somewhere on the outskirts of Mumbai. So you can imagine it's very emotionally and financially investing decision so we will do our research very strongly we'll not just choose something and arrive. Our research has to be strong we have to look at what are the offers we have to look at what the kind of support that is before and after the course it's not just about the course because we look at the ecosystem of learn build and apply. It has to be that. When I came and I landed here in Glasgow University of Glasgow in 2010 I knew for a fact that after the university I'm going to get my post study work visa I knew this before even coming into the country and that is a major major key point in choosing why I came here in the UK especially in Glasgow University because I knew after the course I'm going to get this two years of stability and through this if I'm capable enough if I'm skilled enough I'll probably get a job. So this was a there was a key key point in why I came to the UK because when we look at choosing university we look at four important points we look at the quality of the course offered we look at the reputation of the university third and the most important thing is what is the kind of support we get before and after the course that is key for a student who's investing such a huge amount in our in a university traveling 7 000 miles away from home alone arriving in a country it's a very nerve wracking nervous and scary situation and and fourth is what kind of experience can you get after the course is there support is there fair and balanced administrations where you know you can broaden your horizons all this is taken into consideration I have been lucky enough to pass through student visa getting a post-study work visa and currently on a tier two visa I work for an employee based in corporate it's a small and medium enterprise it's a good company who had to apply for a license before they could give me a tier two so the performance in my job has been there but there are hurdles there are complications and due to these complications and due to these hurdles there there may be a situation where in the future in spite of me entering the Indian market now probably creating 10 new jobs in North Lanarkshire I might have to pack my bags and leave just because there is a certain threshold in place so all this comes into play it's the all ecosystem of built sorry learn build and apply at the moment UK is offering learn here build and apply elsewhere such a big amount of investment emotional investment you have to take into consideration that we will do our research and we will go to a place which has a better offering so it's absolutely clear that if you hadn't had this guarantee that you would be able to continue you your choices would have been made elsewhere I wouldn't be sitting in front of you if the post-study work visa wasn't there which I knew for a fact that was available before I entered it was a key key factor for me and can I ask you both did you have enough support in terms of form filling getting your head round the bureaucracy was there enough assistance has it been made straightforward as it might have been it was very at the university international office were very supportive in the process of applying for the fresh talent scheme and I felt just like more than had spent nearly 50,000 studying in UK and I think that's why it's also important for the student to feel they are getting something back and not to have to pack their bags and leave immediately after qualification so yes thank you I've been very lucky to come across very fair institutions like Scottish Enterprise, Talent Scotland who have helped me along the way to understand the process to you know help me with the paperwork to give me legal advice if needed help the my employer get the tier two license so there have been institutions like Scottish Enterprise and Talent Scotland who have been extremely supportive and you know I applaud because of the fairness and the balance of these kind of administrations which are available here of course again before coming here I knew there was a Scottish Enterprise and Talent Scotland in place if ever I needed some kind of support outside of university then it was available again it was a key factor for me to choose why I came to University of Glasgow so yes there were institutions which have helped me and supported me along the way so far. I wonder if Mary had the same experience you know if you could morning and maybe you could tell us a little more about the kind of support that you had in order to get from getting a degree or getting your qualification and moving into work just a little bit more detailed because obviously it's different when you're doing an MBA or a postgraduate degree if you're doing a fundamental degree you know it means that you've got to then move on and we've heard about the difficulties of moving from one to the other so what sort of support did you have apart from the international office? To get to the fresh talent the only support I had was from the university but then from fresh talent to get my work permit because then I had now two years where I had tried to show that I can do the job I'm competent in the job I'm doing so my employer was then very supportive with applying for the tier two visa which is the work permit and the whole process was they had somebody who had specifically gone to be trained by the home office on what's required and what's their obligations and responsibilities but the big chunk of the paperwork it's still for me to go out there and research online and find out what's the process from the home office website but then there is a few tick box that the employer need to do and that's their responsibility to then go through that process but I'd say they were very supportive for the university as well as the city of Edinburgh council where I currently work Am I correct in saying that you were obviously moving in a social work direction so you were getting some support from within the potential employer or your only when I was already in the employment and worked for two years so if I didn't have the fresh talent visa I wouldn't have been able to get any employer who take me on just as a student without having worked for some time for the employer. Okay thank you. Dylan do you want to pick up on any of that? Just in terms of support that I received from I've been very lucky because I've got my job through Talon Scotland they have the Talon Scotland graduate program in place through that I got the current job that I am and still I am in the same company so that way it was very supportive in another way it was supportive was after I wanted to move from a post-study work visa into a tier two what are the kind of requirements what are the kind of paperwork what does an employer have to do from there and what are the kind of legal assistance every single point that need to be checked Scottish Enterprise and Talon Scotland supported me in that they told me exactly what is needed the if the paperwork once I kept the paperwork ready is that paperwork ready good enough or not so all this kind of support it gives you a certain peace of mind and even puts the employer at peace because he's kind of flustered about about the complications and the paperwork that they need to keep ready from there and as well so if there is some kind of support there is some kind of competent outside consultant who helps you in what the process is it puts both the parties at a peace of mind and then it kind of makes it easier to move forward. I was thinking about our own local university the university of the highlands and islands where you can move from certificates through to phds it is the same cut off between an hnd and a degree a problem for students there. No I think what you've seen is the the difficulty of moving from the college sector up into degree level the progression is still available there there's very very strict requirements around academic progression if you're not progressing across a course or up through a course on to different levels of study within the university there are problems and people will need to students would need to return home but that's okay and we fought long and hard as a sector in Scotland to show that there are differences in Scotland in terms of the length of time that you spend here as an undergraduate and also for professional programs so we spent a lot of work working with colleagues both here and across Scotland ensuring that we protected that because that wasn't straightforward but that's okay but it's that progression from maybe someone English language to college or college English language and then on to university that's much much more problematic and I dare say with fewer rights now that a student would have as an international student within a Scottish college than they previously had before the changes many many changes not just post-study work have been introduced. In terms of the fresh talent initiative was that a factor in you choosing to come to Scotland? I was doing my degree in London so it was in the factor that I chose Scotland it was Scottish beauty to be honest and then when I came over and I was thought about the fresh talent scheme that's the reason I stayed so although it was in the reason I came it was the reason I stayed in Scotland. That's helpful. You should get a job for visiting Scotland as well. Well in terms of you mentioned at the beginning that you knew that you were going to be staying afterwards what was the process for that now how did you how were you guaranteed that you were going to be staying afterwards what happened? Just after the course? Yes well before you came here that you said when you were doing your research yes before you came to to Scotland that you knew you were going to stay afterwards yes and that was guaranteed yeah so when I was doing my research I found out that there is this process called the post-study work visa which guarantees you to stay in the UK for two years it allows you to probably find a job build up in your skills so that was I knew before entering the country and that was a quite supportive decision in terms of why I chose the course which I did and the university which I did and everything worked out for the best and Scotland of course has been great no regrets whatsoever. My final question is actually to both of you in terms of going forward also the situation that the UK find itself in now is not helpful in terms of the post-study work phases would you excuse me would you have any recommendations for certainly for us as a committee but also politicians across the UK and would you have any recommendations to resolve in terms of what you think or what you believe should be the way forward? I think personally for me it was a great opportunity that I was offered to be able to contribute to the economy of the UK and there will be so many students who will choose to come to Scotland because of finding that they can actually have those two years to be able to make a transition either to go back home or to stay and get an employer who will apply the work permit for them so it's a it's a great incentive to to increase their international students who not just contribute economically afterwards but also the tuition fees that we normally have to pay I think it's just based on that it's a it's a good it's very good to actually bring it back because I think it have really benefited so many students and so many of my friends who I know who are on the same scheme so I would be very much recommending that if it can be looked at into be brought back in Scotland even if it's not for the whole of UK but really in Scotland. It was more of an emotional thing as well because now many of the potential students who want to consider UK as a destination to study sometimes contact me and say okay what's the kind of situation what should I do what do you have some kind of advice for me what I try to do is I try to give them a very very fair picture of what is happening right now what may happen in the future what they tell me and what bothers me the most is as Alan mentioned before UK does seem to be a little bit unwelcoming right now and that for me is the most damaging for my recommendation to the committee would be to just consider the emotional side of things as well not just the financial and economical because students are more and more feeling that UK is turning more unwelcoming and I know for a fact that UK universities are one of the best in the world so it's in order for them to remain the best in the world they have to be open to the world right now they're building walls and I don't know how long that legacy and the quality will remain in the minds of students who want to come here and study so the emotional side of thing of the quality and the legacy that needs to be preserved. Thank you. So just one final point for me it's not it's not a question just a very brief point just I studied abroad I studied in France, Germany and Sweden so at your point regarding the emotional side of things is something that I wholeheartedly recognise and I think it's a very strong point that you've put on the record. Thank you. Now Milla I think you mentioned issues to do with pay thresholds and I think Malcolm you were interested in that area wasn't you? I was just interested about whether you're concerned any or all of you about indications that the Home Office plans to introduce a pay threshold for non-EU migrants of £35,000 and do you think this made deter students or further deter students on any future scheme from the remaining in the UK and working on a tier 2 or indeed any other visa? I'm happy to pick that up so the Migration Advisory Committee has which was tasked with looking at ways in which tier 2 could be further restricted basically by the government. It's come up with a set of recommendations in the past couple of weeks which includes increasing the threshold to 23,000 just over 23,000 for switchers so these would be tier 4 graduates moving from tier 4 into tier 2 so that would move that minimums salary threshold up for new entrants into that category. It further introduces tax on talent so there's a 1,000 surcharge for every employer who's looking to take on an international student or a migrant into their work so when we look to this in the Russell group of which University of Edinburgh is a part of the UK's sort of research universities that'll cost over £7 million a year effectively a tax on talent that's being introduced in that area and yes there are further changes that have been put forward by the Migration Advisory Committee which include also subjecting students who are moving from tier 4 to tier 2 to not just higher salary thresholds but also subjecting them to the resident labour market test of which they're not there exempted from at the present time and further to that they're also intending that international graduates moving from 4 to tier 2 are also now subject to the cap that exists there so what you're going to see is pretty significant pressure on that cap and it's a further tightening of the existing routes which are already quite restrictive 5,867 if you look across all opportunities for students graduating in the UK if you add up all the routes all the possibilities home office figures it's 5,867 and declining so it's small restrictive and if these recommendations are put through then as well as the move to the 30,000 plus then you've got an even even greater tightening of an already less competitive package you're quite happy with Michael? Well that was the main I suppose I was interested just in terms of Mary and Maulin about how what was your experience I mean of transitioning to a tier 2 visa and I suppose related to the previous question how do you think that compared with what the position that will face future applicants? Just to be absolutely practical and realistic it is it's almost next to impossible for a small and medium enterprise right now to meet the thresholds which are being recommended it is just to be honest because I've gone through the process so that's why I can say this with utmost confidence when I went from tier 4 to tier 2 there was already a threshold in place and my employer had to increase my wage in order to do that but fortunately my performance and my employer had enough faith and trust in me that I'll do better in the future was willing to increase the wage to a certain point and then went on to get the sponsor license and then give me the tier 2 today with the thresholds in place my employer can simply not afford to keep me on and it's wrong on my part to even expect for my employee to pay me such wages so what is going to happen is in spite of everything being perfect I will have to kind of give it up and probably go back home and how damaging is that to an individual's future and career and at the same time to an employee who has complete he's completely comfortable and confident in one of his employees that it just break the relationship which is not right. I think that mostly what happens is there's lots of goalposts moving so you you work towards one goal and you're trying to reach there you're trying to get that threshold of the salary and then just when you're about to reach there then the home office changes the rules and and that's it's been very emotional process from the 10 years I've been here just keep on keeping on trying to go with the goalpost and it's moved and it's like a hope after a hope you have to jump so so I think the process is quite tedious. On just on that area to just check something out there's something called the shortage occupation list what do you think the impact of this further restrictions will have on this shortage occupation list which areas of the Scottish economy in terms of skills are most likely to be impacted upon? Is Emily got a feel for that because I understand IT is a particular area but I wanted to make sure I was right on that hunch. Alan I don't know if you can pick up on that. I think what you'll see is that certainly from in terms of international students graduating from Scottish universities the further tightening because the increasing salary thresholds the tax on talent particularly for small to medium enterprises which is the backbone of the Scottish economy the the compliance regime that they have to deal with there are only six home office figures that I could get when I looked at it 672 employers across all of Scotland in Northern Ireland that are actively using certificates of sponsorship through tier two so there's a question there about employers finding this attractive as well and clearly they're not really engaging with it because they don't particularly with a small company having to take hugely expensive legal advice trailing through hundreds of pages of documents to ensure that they're complying with all the regulations that the sign-up doesn't seem to be it seems to be very very small for the sector so this in terms of the shortage occupation lists or resident labour market test subjecting students to that as well will just further restrict the ability for that talent to remain in Scotland across the the areas that have been identified in Scotland as being skill shortage areas and there was one report and I would need to look at that the title of that report that had identified there being skill shortages within sort of digital ICT of about 10,000 a year in Scotland that cannot be sourced locally in Scotland or the UK now I've got a couple of who want to ask some questions I think Linda you had some specific things on the college and Mark wanted to ask questions about consultation issues so just to give Lucy a chance to contribute here do you want to start off in your area? Yes okay there's a couple of things Lucy that I would quite like you to clarify from the the evidence you put in to give us a broader understanding of it there's three things in particular that I'll just say to you straight off one was you said and I think you repeated earlier here that you feel that policies re-international students are less favourable to colleges so there was that a wee bit more information about the opportunity to work while studying I think is important as well as post-studying and that's something that's been difficult for colleges I know and you're referring your evidence to embedded colleges private providers being treated differently and more favourably under the current rules and publicly funded colleges I wonder if you could expand on that bit okay embedded colleges really the point there is that as we've mentioned previously international tier 4 students studying at further education college even on a higher education programme are required to leave the UK when they complete their higher national diploma in order to articulate on to a degree at a university students studying at a private provider which is attached to a university are not required to leave so that means that they don't incur the cost of returning home they don't have to then show maintenance funds again for an international student they have to demonstrate that they have had over 9 000 pounds in their bank account for 28 consecutive days within a 30 day period of making their visa application so this is a large undertaking for for international students I get more clarification on that before you move on to the other two if you don't mind because I don't really understand what they are you mentioned into or into and cap plan what actually are they they are providers attached to universities but they are not they are not the university itself and what they do is they prepare students who perhaps would not have the entry qualifications for university to immediately start studying at university so where a university may have an entry qualification of say an IELP score of six you may have an international student who doesn't quite meet that English language requirement so they have the option to study at many of them choose to study at a further education college to prepare themselves for university some choose to go to a private provider attached to a university because it's actually then easier for them to go on to study a degree at the university so so that is a very clear example of a difference in how institutions are treated yes yeah I think we should maybe look into that a wee bit more quickly and I find that interesting um trying to remember the other things I asked you about yeah the working while studying yeah I mean that's just another example um again I know I keep coming back to it international students studying at a further education colleges are studying higher education programmes so they're studying higher national diplomas equivalent to the first two years of a university degree and yet they do not have the right to work at all while they're studying in the UK so they have no means of gaining work experience other than on a work placement which is an assessed part of their their course of study so does it actually mean then that they are disadvantaged in their study because they're not allowed to do the work placement or do they end up having to work for nothing or they're allowed if a work placement is already a part of their programme they're allowed to participate in that work placement as long as it's not more than 33 percent of the programme however they're not allowed to for example have a weekend job and work 20 hours per week as a university student would be able to do in order to support themselves while they're here in the UK it also disadvantages them in the sense that you know they're not they're not practicing their English they're not integrating into the community you know in the way that they perhaps would have previously before their rules changed and so it disadvantages them in many different ways but a direct difference between college students exactly yes right also on your evidence lucene you mentioned it earlier you know that you can only talk about your own college but the population having reduced year on year so you've gone from 150 international students in 2011 to 1 this year that's a huge drop what's the actual what's bottom line for that for your college um well obviously it's a huge reduction in fee income um but i would stress that the it's not just about the money for a college such as ours it's really important for our UK based students who may not otherwise have that opportunity um to to work to study to socialize in a multicultural environment um you know and if the ultimate aim of our college is to prepare students for the world of work and prepare them to be global citizens that's what we're trying to do to enable them to be socially mobile um and you know really they're being disadvantaged as well because they're not having that opportunity that leads on to something i was going to say because you know we all know that of late colleges have been very much focused on full-time courses that lead to the world of work and it would seem to me that it's like different policy levers that are contradicting each other rather than working working together here so on one hand you've got a Scottish Government which is very focused on work and colleges helping very much in that and economic growth and on the other hand you've got the Westminster government that's having no recognition of what Scotland requires and that and in fact between that and the earnings thresholds that don't always apply in Scotland are very much working against each other in policy terms which i suppose leads back convener to that question about whether there should in fact be a specific Scottish scheme that suits the conditions of both the education sector and the economics of Scotland well yeah it would be a question is that something that our panellists would feel they could comment on and then i've got one little thing after that i would tend to agree as moll and mary have said it was it was a huge factor in the making their decision about where they would come to study and if our ultimate aim is to get people ready to go out into the world of work if we're not then allowing them that opportunity at the end of the programme we're not really fulfilling our aim okay very tiny supplementary about something moll and said earlier you're talking about sitting with your friends well and and talk about where you were going to come and i thought that was really important and it was also in Lucy's evidence about network marketing which that's direct there about students going home and telling of their experience and stuff and i wonder if we're seriously in danger unless we we're able to do something about this of damaging our prospects would you feel that my line that that here we had a wonderful way of marketing because of the good experience going home telling people and it's been taken away and we can suffer in the the medium and longer term i can sum it up in one sentence five years ago for me education was an investment in uk today for an indian student wanting to come here education is a cost and that's where the difference is it's no more an investment it's a cost you spend such a big amount of money you stay here for one year and then you're not given a fair chance or an opportunity not a job just an opportunity to stay on and see what you can do after your course it doesn't justify the costs and efforts so it seems as a cost more than an investment that's where the danger is thank you very much just quickly agree agree with that and what was said also by lucia as well so when you go back there's an interesting statement winchton Churchill in 1943 at harvard talked about the empires of the future slightly prophetically but the empires of the future being empires of the mind and i think you've got more more countries cities as well across the world who recognise that this is not just about the balance of power but it's about the balance of brains and this talent and also scotland's universities and colleges as well have a huge role to play in that i've said it in the submission as well this is a global race for talent it's it's that simple and and people have choice people have choice like they've never had choice before and this is critically important not just to universities or to colleges but to scotland's economy scotland's workforce and jobs in scotland it's that simple and it's not just i think the panel here that are that are saying that it's not just universities and colleges it's scotland's businesses it's scotland's employers it's scotland's academia i could go on so but that that quote that comment the balance of brains and the balance of power is something in a public policy sphere that more and more governments and city authorities across the world are having a very very close look at for a better integrated approach to all of this with regards to high value talent migration okay thank you thank you mark thank you convener and if i can offer an apology to my own memory my questions will generally be for for lucy and allen but i do think that the evidence you've put on the record today has been absolutely superb and there's some really good strong stuff there um i just want to read a couple of quotes from the recent UK government statement and the evidence that david mandel gave to the scotland affairs committee and the statement the UK government said the UK has an excellent post study work offer for graduates of scottish universities seeking to undertake skilled work in the UK after their studies and mr mandel followed that up at the scotland affairs committee saying as i said in the written ministerial statement the UK government believed that such schemes already exist and indeed as the prime minister said are world beating so my question is do you think that's a reflection of reality so i can go first on that in terms of we talked about this earlier but so in australia you can stay up to four years after you finish your your studies canada you can stay for the same length of time that the length of time you're spending on your particular programs it was a four-year degree you have you have four years the united states of america at the moment you have the department for home and security this week lobbying to actually extend their opt program for post study worked up to three years and they've been given an extra couple of months to look at that about how they would how they would do that as i said if you taught up all the different routes so if you look these are home office figures so the doctoral extension scheme for the whole of the united kingdom you had 330 successful entrants into the doctoral extension scheme stay one year after your phd completes in the whole of the uk in 2015 the graduate entrepreneur route last figures i have 2014 560 for the whole of the uk and 5500 through tier 2 in 2015 so it's a very small number of the 310 320 000 non-ea students that we've got currently studying in the united kingdom that are able to progress on on these routes the employer bit is interesting as well it's not just students it's the employers the employer uptake is small it's cumbersome bureaucratic for the small to medium enterprise sector of which scott again i said is the backbone of the Scottish economy so i think when you look at the figures when you look at the hard figures compared to what's happening elsewhere and what's on offer elsewhere and i've said that in terms of i i don't see it as being competitive as the other offers that are on the table as so eloquently was described in terms of the choice and the detailed research that students will do prior to making what is a very significant emotional financial commitment to study thousands of miles away from their home location so world beating apart from lots of other countries so can i ask in terms of consultation what consultation or otherwise took place with either colleges or universities in advance of the decision to remove the post study work visa again lucy lucy there was there was no consultation what we were left dealing with and i think that would apply to lucy and also to myself and many colleagues across the education sector in terms of colleges universities we were at the front end when this was removed with almost no no notification and having to actually talk to students and dependents that they had with them as well to say i know that the decision to come here was for many of you largely predicated on the ability for the quality of the education first and foremost but also your offer around the fresh talent scheme or the tier one scheme as was we're sorry to tell you not our decision but you're no longer able to do that and you can imagine what that did it didn't exactly win us many friends and who we were at the front end of the ire on that if i can put it diplomatically in terms of that did we didn't win many friends around that we effectively pulled the rug from people's feet under people's feet which i think would have left a particular sour taste in the mouth by those students who then had to depart having come here with the being reassured that that would be an option for them and it was pulled partway through their studies and lucy i don't know if you have anything to add in terms of that i mean it was a i don't recall any consultation as an institution it was a huge loss to us but more importantly for our students i know that the vast majority of the students studying on our programs then went on to the post study work visa some of them then went on to other tiers many of them used it as an opportunity to work and to save money to then go on to university so really i think we were missing we're missing a trick there and i think that ties in very much with the evidence that my own put on the record about the the investment that these people will have put in in order to come here with predicated on the basis that they were going to get to stay after their studies but can i ask then following up from that because obviously the smith commission had a very clear recommendation around post study work visas the smith commission conclusions were you know they're now over a year old has there been any contact or consultation from the UK government following that recommendation by the smith commission regarding post study work visas with Scottish institutions i received nothing directly the only connection that we've had on post study work has been the Scottish government's post study work group that's been meeting with cross party representation which we've through the university have been part of and all through other sector organisations at university scotland okay and lucy from the further education sector okay it's very interesting thank you computer range in discussion i think unless there's any new areas that people want to open up on or ask any questions then i think we'll probably come to the end of this particular well i need to move on now sure i'm sorry i need to just make sure that we get ourselves how quick is the supplementary right has to be just based upon i want to finish this by quarter two yeah it's very quick based upon allen's comments actually illiteron um and certainly the submission that we received from universities um scottish universities as well but uh let's see if i can find the thing right you spoke at illiteron regarding the the economic boom and the lack of growth in student numbers and and the university of scotland by the submission um they highlight that when you consider what this is this is actually happened and when you consider what's going to happen over the course of the next couple of years and the future in terms of the economy from china um how do you see things if there is no policy changes with this how do you see the the university sector but also when the college sector on scotland has actually been affected by about what's been going on particularly because of the economic situation the economic changes from china so what you've got happening is by 2030 live four countries in the world accounting for over 50 percent of all global tertiary enrolments that's the united states canada sorry united states china india and brazil so you've got a polarization going on here and i think that was referenced in the university of scotland statement about we need we need the diversity from a range of nations there's great strength and diversity for what we do as education institutions bringing the best from different countries across the world so you've got polarization occurring and i think that can be there's risk mitigation that you need to look at in relation to that there is a direct impact not just for universities and colleges in terms of the fees that students might pay but there's also a direct impact on the institutionalisation of our labs and our lecture theatres and the quality of our output we want to work with the brightest and the best around the world and if we make that more difficult if we cut that off we do it at our peril so i think to sustain world-class leading research and education and teaching we need to be able to attract the brightest and the best from across the world and i think ensuring that we have a competitive package on that keeps that a range of countries able to come to scotland and to attend college universities is is critically critically important and i think what you've seen i mentioned eight of the reference in the evidence eight of the ten top ten sending countries from outside the european union have seen it have seen a decline in in the last couple of years eight out of the ten and even those increases as i said at the uk level higher education statistics authority research it's a one percent increase so there are there are there are direct implications for colleges universities there are direct implications also for the economy and scotland's economy and jobs in this economy if this continues to to go the way in which it is at the moment thank you you want to add anything to that lucy or okay listen folks i'm sorry that i'm going to curtail this session because i need to finish the public session by quarter two and we'll still have one other item to get through but listen i'm very grateful for the witnesses coming along today i think some of the evidence we heard not only built on significantly on the paperwork that we've already received and written for them and some of the evidence was compelling and interesting so i'm very very grateful to you for coming along today and helping flesh out and bring it alive for us in the way certainly that molland and mary did in some of the technical detail for lucy and allan it was a very very useful session thank you very much i want to move on now immediately to deal with the item two on our agenda which is in regard to the committee visit to spain that we have a paper in front of us and i was going to say a few words about it but given the timescale of the fair and that Duncan i don't know if you want to add anything no other than you know the very last paragraph i think we you know at 30 i think is a great summary that accordingly the meetings we held in spain reaffirmed our view that implementing the principles and transparency and accountability into the governmental processes which will underpin further devolution and powers proposing civil is not only necessary but eminently achievable and i think that's what we found out in spain it's a great summary of the visit that many of the things that we have been examining here and questioning were confirmed in the spanish experience but they have overcome them and there are processes and principles that can be applied to deal with a new and evolving situation and that was hardening i think the key bits for me were in paragraph 16 17 18 in terms of how the Spanish constitutional court worked alongside the bilateral commissions that existed and where they didn't operate how people could have the ability to take it to the Spanish constitutional court the Cortesa could go direct to the court the autonomous bodies had to go through a more elaborate process to get there but also the way that the transparency existed through that process at the end particularly in paragraph 18 i think describes well some of the real key learning that was done from that there are no other further comments but there are no other further comments i now there i therefore want to remind the committee that we'll meet again next week when we'll consider an update on the scotland bill and now close this meeting