 Welcome back everyone. This is theCUBE's live coverage here in Las Vegas. I'm John Furrier, host of theCUBE with Dave Vellante, SaaS Innovate 2024. Mike Blanchard, VP of Customer Intelligence at SaaS and Reagan Yan, CEO of Digital Alchemy. It's here in theCUBE. Great to have you guys on. Thanks for coming on, appreciate you. Thank you. Great to be here. Great stage performance up on the keynote this morning and you got a customer. I love the name of the company, by the way. Because I just think, in my mind, I'm thinking pulling LLMs, fusing them together, integrating and having value, so. Taking them up. Our logo used to have lots of ones and zeros on it. And I think Alchemy is a great way to look at how data is really interacting with each other. We think there's a lot of chemistry behind how data works. So, take a minute to explain what you guys do and then we can get in some of the chat. Yeah, so we're a global marketing services organization. We implement and manage marketing automation for organizations and in many cases, we're augmenting and supporting their existing capabilities. But we're very focused on automation. So, we do a lot of implementation, but our speciality is to get marketing automation implementations to automate. Because we, there's a lot more marketing automation implementations in place than there is marketing automation. You know, the ad tech business, market tech business is changing, those stacks are well known. By the way, they're also cutting edge. The database work involved over the years. I mean, it's a total platform, but in every revolution is an abstraction layer of new stuff. I mean, kind of puts a cap on it, but it's not really shut down, maybe changes some of the dynamics of what was before. But the new generative AI is not free program stuff, it's generating stuff on the fly, so that you need data and you need to have outcomes. So, this is a big part of the story here at SAS. How do you guys see that as a solution evolving because you're going to have net new components. The game is still the same. I want to put something at the right place at the right time, that's the contextual relevance for the people I'm trying to reach, and that's going to require, again, another quant jock-like automated system. What do you guys see for that? Because digital marketing, your CMO is all behind this. She sees AI being a real driver of change. I think you said it. I think I describe it as a sort of tornado of change, but actually the constant is still the same, right? And if you think back, you know, 30 years now consumers have had a lot of choice about who they do business with, and they will do it on their own terms, right? And there's also so many others that they can go to that the world has just got more complicated. So, at the end of the day, trust between the consumer and the brand is the most important thing for generating loyalty, share of wallet, but now the brands have got so much to deal with, right? They have all of the explosion of the fact that they've nowhere to hide, right? Consumers can go and find out about every product and service, not from the brand, but about someone writing a review, posting something on social. Read it. People like you, yeah, exactly, right? So that's just the first thing. Second thing, they've got people coming into their industry that are trying to re-engineer the business processes. Then you go to the technology, right? And then you have the whole, I mean, we're in probably the most innovative part of the market, marketing and advertising technology. It hits every trend, every buzz term comes to life first through these kind of technologies. So, you know, today you kind of got these poor brands that are still trying to do the same thing, manage consumer relationships. They're dealing with generative AI, cookie apocalypses, you know, all of these kind of CDPs, composability, marketing stacks, right? Clean rooms. Clean rooms, that's right. New regulations, EU's government, not that you're part of that anymore, but that's it. But yeah, and then they do all that and then the regulations are all changing at the same time. So it's not an easy life. But, you know, I would say the heart of everything comes down to what we're seeing now, generative is bringing it to life. It's the data, right? It's how you, the data is the lifeblood underneath. Talk about your relationship with each other, I can see that, I'm starting to connect dots on my head, just jump right to it. Talk about the relationship because I can imagine that AI is going to help with a lot of the data interchange because you've got a lot of different diverse data sources and types. You're talking about ads, different sources, got APIs, 85% of traffic on the internet is API-based. So that's the interconnect. So data's going to be exchanging. So talk about your relationship, how you guys work together, envision this being pretty cool. So I think SaaS is developing the platforms that create connectivity and access to the data. What we do is we help clients actually make the most of that data, right? So I think one of, there's two things that Generative AI is going to transform in marketing. The first is the analytics process. So at the moment, clients don't use all of the data they got, not because they can't access it because their brains just can't get to all of the data in a timely enough manner to actually execute. So Generative AI is going to significantly change the way we query and understand the data. You can ask a machine a question about my data and it'll come back to you. So that's going to increase the scope of data that market is going to be able to use to generate their campaigns, right? Because at the moment, you know, I've got this much data but I only use this much data. So it's not lack of data. It's not lack of data. At the moment it's not like data. The ability to leverage it. Correct. And Generative AI will change that by being able to. You think that alone covers in the near term, the lack of data, in other words, I need more data. I need to go to other outside sources. Actually the data that I haven't been using that I haven't had access to is crap. Well, I think that's actually part of a separate trend that's going on with the deprecation of third party cookies is, you know, a lot of marketing organizations have kind of gone out and, you know, gotten third party data and connected data together and they've kind of neglected their own data, you know. And what we're seeing, you know, over the last sort of 12 to 18 months is organizations going, oh, these third party cookies might not be there soon. I better focus on my own data. So, you know, there's a lot of focus now on own data, first party data. There's a lot of... Like journey mapping, all that kind of stuff. Journey mapping on your own data, not journey mapping on somebody else's data, right? Yeah, because the cookie crutch or the cookie biggie is going. And it's suddenly just snapped in a lot of people's minds go, oh my God, you know. So what we're seeing, and this is where I think SaaS is really strong, is that SaaS is really strong in complex data. So, you know, a lot of the other platforms are really good in the digital data that is... You know, digital data is much easier to stitch together than digital to legacy data. You know, when you start to go into, you know, your legacy banking systems or your legacy POS systems, much harder to stitch all that data together. And I think that's where we're seeing a lot of focus from marketers now, suddenly waking up going, actually, I got to focus on my own data. And I think we, you know, we, our history in this space goes back well over 20 years to the old direct marketing days where actually there was good behaviors around managing first party data, you know, providing personalized communication that time through post, those kind of things. The digital world kind of people got lazy, right? Because they didn't have to manage first party data. But suddenly they're now coming back, it's sort of going full circle, coming back again and saying, oh, actually I do need to understand who this individual is. And I need to understand and use that data responsibly, you know, both for what I'm telling you, but also how I'm, you know, telling you how I'm using your data. So it's just, it's a kind of a world that's just spun back round again. Doesn't it also put pressure on firms and brands to actually rethink their content strategies? Is there now need, you know, original content? But I actually think that's the other opportunity for Gen AI is in content generation. So, you know, one of my hobby horses in marketing is A-B testing. I hate A-B testing. You know, I've never seen an A-B test where, you know, test A or test B is, you know, more than 10 or 20% better than the other one. Right? And that's mostly borne out of our limitation to actually create content because it's been handcrafted. You know, the creative has been handcrafted. But with Gen AI, we'll now be able to create 20 or 30 different propositions and test them simultaneously. Scale it. And scale it. So we'll be able to test at scale and we'll be able to execute that at scale. But it's almost like getting the data, the micro segments alongside the content. Right? So, you know, if you know that there are multiple different variants of consumers or audiences within that same campaign, you can then break down your content into multiple variants of content. Right? So the two have to go symbiotic and hand in hand. So the content piece has to map also with the data. Talking about personalization at scale. Mass customization, but at scale and personalized. Yeah, that's new. Right. So I mean, as a concept, it's been there for a long time. Yeah, but it's exceedingly difficult to actually execute. But our ability to execute has been limited by our ability to create, you know, very targeted content or offers and very small segments. Let me ask you a question on this elusive goal to get the data. A-B testing might shift into more of how do I get actually good data in the organics market? So as a marketer, where are the customers? Where are those watering holes? I mean, LinkedIn is not great at analytics. Twitter has got an API. Who knows what's going to, that's going to be one day. Reddit. So as you start seeing where users are gathering, first party, I can see that being, will there be a shift back to company sites or is that already happening? It's already happening. Already happening. So you advise, get your first party watering hole, it's website, web application. It is what I tell people, right? If you're using third party data, it's like having a, it's like a Tinder profile, right? Third party data is equivalent to a Tinder profile. I mean, you know, it kind of represents the person, you know, but it's subjective and it's not a, you know, that's what I want to tell the world, right? You can meet somebody based on a Tinder profile, but you'll never build a relationship based on their Tinder profile. To build a relationship with somebody, you need to go on a date, you need to talk to them, you need to get information about that person that isn't on their profile, right? And so to me, a third party cookie is a Tinder profile. Your first party data is the data that you've collected going on dates. And that's what you need to build a relationship. You cannot build a relationship on a call. That's a great analogy, actually, the dating app relationship. Let me throw one more variable into your mix. I love that analysis. Let's throw the Coachella example in there. I love to go to festivals where all my tribe is, and there's different sections and different stages. So there's still that group dynamic. I want to be with my peers. I want to, I'll show you a relationship with the website. Do the, does the site turn into Coachella? Or does it, or is that going to be third party? And then that's a challenge. I mean, we're seeing a lot of people trying to go where their peers are. And LinkedIn is doing that right now. I think people think that's for business and they're growing because Facebook's changed and they get Instagram, what's that? But I think people are recognizing now, or brands are recognizing that those platforms, what they're ultimately doing is monetizing first party data, right? They're just doing it in different ways. And I think what you're seeing now is some of those brands respond and say, we could monetize our own first party data by providing, for example, through retail media. Why are Amazon and Facebook and Google doing all this monetization of advertising when people are coming to my website? I could promote other people's products. And that's what you see in this growth of this whole retail media. It's a monetization opportunities. Because people are spying now. People know the big guys have got big targets behind them because no one wants to kind of get caught up now in their ecosystems. And they're saying, well, they're just taking me out of business ultimately. So it's also the users of the product in that use case. So I think this is a good point. The shift to controlling the user experience seems to be the common thread here. Whether it's a dating app vibe or hosting Coachella. I mean, you want both, right? People will probably... Is those that understand their customers better, whatever, will win. Because they'll be able to build better products, better services, better communications. So the faster you learn, as Brian says, the faster you'll win. But they have to do it in a governed way. So to a point, I mean, how many times have we said something, whether there's an Alexa or Siri around, and all of a sudden you get this ad, and you're like, oh my God, they're listening. And so to the point, if you're part of the ecosystem and they're getting regulated, but okay, if you're going to take it in-house though, you've got to do it in a responsible way. Significantly higher burden on the partner. I think there's this movement. A lot of people talk about data ownership. Organizations say, data is my greatest asset, my most valuable asset, blah, blah. I actually think that organizations need to move away from that idea that they own the data to an idea that they are the custodian. The customer owns their own data. They own their own data. You are the custodian of their data, and as the custodian, you have a responsibility to that customer. And I think increasingly organizations are moving in that direction. And I think it's also part of this first party data because people are believing and understanding that they can control that better if they control what those customers are doing. So circle back to how you guys are actually working together to solve this problem. You need to understand that. You're a masterclass in digital art. I'm learning a lot. Let's ask one more question. You don't mind. Before we do that, yeah. So knowledge graphs and neural networks are a big part of the AI conversation. And as you look at social graph, we see that it's also distribution and who you're connected to. So as you look at the value of the graph data, when you start looking at public open web or open AI models where, not open AI, but like open source, people want to connect to each other. Is there a data source or opportunity that you guys see where somewhere down the road there will be a graph structure of people communicating openly where they own their own data or... I think what they... Or is that fantasy? Yeah, well, there's certainly been movements to try and create those kind of open ecosystems. I've not seen them yet take hold in any shape or form. I think more the commercial entities kind of are doing their thing with them. I think what we're seeing is that idea. I think one of you mentioned the clean room example. The idea that how do we bring different parties data together and get the benefit where mutually we can unlock more value together. And so that is an exciting sort of when you see the sort of, I guess the advertising. The alchemy of the data. Yeah, exactly. The advertising and the kind of classic brand worlds coming together. I think you're right on that. I think that's right. How are you guys solving these problems and adding value to customers? So we provide effectively the technology and the platform to provide automated marketing campaigns at scale. And I guess our job is really to help brand. I mean, at any moderate scale, brands need to build technologies, processes and inside their ecosystems to get personalization right, to create the appearance that we understand you as a customer and a consumer. So we're providing that technology. It sits on top of our analytical capabilities. So what I would describe it is we connect to the data. We're then interpreting the data to build the understand. We're converting raw data into patterns of behavior. And then at an operational level, we create effectively audiences, segments for targeting and that delivers the campaign cycle through. Ultimately that ends up in posts on Facebook, direct marketing, digital communications. But that whole has to be sequenced into journeys. And it's bring your own data model or? No, no, so it's bring your own data. Okay, so it's bring your own data. So that, what if I don't have the volume of data? I got to go figure it out. I got to go get it and then call you guys or can you help me do that? So we can help you do that. So we spend a lot of time with our customers when they're, if they're starting on this journey, building data strategies for them. Where's the data that, because a lot of, there's actually a lot of data within organizations that people don't know about. There's this data sitting in all sorts of repositories around organization. So the first thing that we will generally do is go, where's the data? And how do we stitch that data together? And then look at the data gaps and then see how can we plug those gaps. We operate around the world and different geographies have different accesses to different second party data and stuff like that. But in the US, the second party data is pretty good. And image, I mean, you're talking about multi-modal. Google, next last week, I mean, image creation, obviously, it's moving fast, right? A lot of it was manual before I tried to prompt it, didn't work, I forget it. Chat, GPT can't spell, Dali can't spell. That's getting much, much better. You plug into that. Yes, so what we're, sorry. So what we're doing is we're enabling those processes. Yeah, right. Because whatever organizations want to do, you've got to set up the processes to make sure that that happens well, right? And there's going to be, the machines can do the grunt work, but someone still has to tell the machine what to do, right? I mean, they're not at that point where they know exactly what to do yet. And then you've got to think of things like exclusion rules, contact policies, all of the overheads that the team still have to manage, right? So, because obviously if I start over-communicating till you get those communications wrong, you're just going to have the backlash and the negative effects of what you're actually trying to achieve. But I heard a great quote yesterday that marketers are worried about that AI is going to take over their job and that the job is not going to be taken by AI, but it might be taken by a marketer who understands AI. A human in a loop driving the new toy. I mean, it's like, how do you drive AI and it's the data strategy? Yeah, I mean, even automation, you know, like if you look at the industrial revolution, the industrial revolution didn't create unemployment, right? AI is not going to create unemployment. It's just going to redistribute where the work is done. Yeah, I don't see AI. I mean, it's interesting conversation. It's the first time ever you're replacing, machines have always replaced humans, but now you're replacing humans with cognitive functions. Steve Cohen was on TV the other day, saying we're going to a four-day work week. I go, is he gaming the system because he's a workaholic and he just wants to be able to pick up three more days or is it actually going to happen? I think that's going to happen. Four-day work week, but the machine is going to enable that and the better you use the machine. So I'll get paid the same amount of money and I'll work four days a week because the machine's doing it the other day. Produce way more output. Yeah, and we're more creative with that today on. And we'll be more creative, right? Yeah. And I think that's, you know, I think, and that's why I think AI opens opportunity because it opens the opportunity to access more of the data. It opens opportunity to, you know, to be more creative. So John, six-day work week in your future. Because I know how you work. I work eight days a week. Guys, great job. Come on, give a final plug. What are you guys doing? The big exhibits here, you got augmented analytics. You got all the innovation hub here. The customer intelligence piece is your piece. Yes. Give a plug for what you do at SAS. Yeah, so I'm responsible for the marketing and advertising technologies at SAS. So it's pretty cool. It's the front end of how we take data and analytics and apply it to consumer experience for, you know, many of the largest brands globally. So it's a fun part. It's the most innovative part of the industry. But it's also something that comes with a huge amount of responsibility from SAS. Safeguarding consumer data is probably, you know, goes alongside core banking data, health data, those kind of things. So we have to do it in a very responsible way. You're going to go to Mexico while you're here in the States, put a plug in for what you're doing and the firm. So, you know, what we do is we make it work. You know, it's as simple as that. There's a lot of marketing automation, but we're the guys who make it work. You come in, you do the fixer, and they give them the keys when they're done. We spend a lot of time fixing. You pass the keys when they're done. We'll stay with you. So in nearly all cases with our clients, we fix it. We get it humming, and then we stay with you. And we've got clients that have been with us for 15, 20 years. Awesome, congratulations. Thanks for coming on the show. I appreciate it. I'm John Furrier, here at theCUBE, the leader at Tech Coverage with Dave Vellante, head of CUBE Research. More coverage after this short break.