 Thank you, Mr. Towers, for agreeing to this interview. Most of us know you as the person who was responsible for composing the music to the national anthem. Take us back a bit into the process of how you created the melody that's now sung at every major national event and at other events. It's a difficult question to answer, really, because I recall in the first instance, Father Jess Sotter wrote to me and I wondered, well, why did he write? I looked at the two-page thing and there was a second page and all I noticed was a poem. So then I went back and read the first page and then realized he was drawing my attention to the fact that the government had invited persons to submit contribution by way of music and words to the national anthem. And he was, in fact, saying, I have just done the words and I would like you to set it to music. Now, there was this close relationship between Father Jess and myself. Ever since I grew up in Viewfort, in fact, I was a member of the boy's choir and he taught me music. And then I came up to Castries as a result of his influence because he thought I had some musical skill and he needed me to carry this further. At that time, there was a director of music appointed by the name of Mr. Chester Catlow and I was doing studies with Mr. Chester Catlow in music. So Father Jess knew I was doing quite a bit of compositions for various things in church. So it was difficult for me to tell him that I wouldn't do this. So I read the poem several times. I tried to enter into the spirit, the length, the meter and all that goes with it. And when I thought I understood it well enough, then I commenced writing a melody. Now it is very difficult to say how do you write a melody? There are canons in terms of what makes a good melody and things like that. But eventually, you've got a whole history and background of music tunes, you know, in your repertoire as it were. And then you begin to say, well, what kind of tune would sort of reflect that? Because the music must add and in help to interpret the spirit of the words. And I spent something like three weeks, you know, trying to solve that problem. Eventually I did and wrote out a melody that I thought I was comfortable with. It satisfied the canons I thought of melody and how many at that time, as far as I was concerned. So I sent it to him. And then he said, well, could we get together so that he could hear the tune? So I agreed and I went to the cathedral with him and I played the tune on the organ. And then when I came down from the choir loft, he said he liked it. And he then submitted it to the government. And there was a panel because it was a competition. And then the panel recommended this anthem and the words to government. And therefore history was made. And then shortly after, when it got nearer to independence, I remember that there was a function at government house and they wanted a choir to sing that anthem, you know, prior so that persons could hear it in its fullness. Yeah, what was that like? Yes, yes. So that was very interesting. And that's it. But how did you feel hearing your composition for the first time? Yes. Well, it was good, I think, to think that you have done something and it is considered to be a value to the nation, you know, to be recommended by a committee and then, you know, to do this. So I was very, very delighted. But it was only several years after when you begin to hear it being played and especially with various other national anthems like when they brought people from various territories and they played the several anthems, you began to feel, you know, that this was created and it was worthwhile. Well, but you've had a love affair with music of sorts because I gather that you studied in London, London College of Music. You were the choral director and organist at the Roman Catholic Cathedral and you're also the vice president of the Seminary School of Music from 1899-1992. This love affair began in view for it while learning to sing on the choir. That's right. At least we had a boy's choir then and I started learning music there. At that time, father taught us how to read and we could sight read both the plain chart which was, you know, church music, conventional church music at the time and then we could sight read modern music, you know. At that time it was a delight for us to be able to pick up anything and sight read it. Just do it, yes. Did you ever think of becoming a musician because I mean, you went to me to study music. Sounds pretty serious. That was a problem for me, quite a tussle. Because I had these two loves as it were, music and education. And after I did the London retreat, I thought well, let me give some thought to doing music seriously and wanted to do a degree in music. And I was doing the subjects with the help of Mr. Catlow in terms of musical composition, counterpoint, harmony, form, analysis. And I got somewhere with it. In fact, I had applied for admission to the University of London in order to do music. And then something happened. The year after I succeeded my London matriculation examination, Mr. Boxill pulled me over to the Ministry of Education to be one of the supervising teachers which essentially is a trainer of teachers, teacher trainer. And from then on, I began to have second thoughts. And I thought well, at the time St. Lucia didn't seem ready for somebody who would come back with a degree in music. In music, oh no. Yes. And I thought perhaps I should pursue my education because I had got further along the road in that area and keep music as an abiding interest. And which is what has happened to this day. I have not given it up at all. Oh, you still play? I still play. You make up other anthems. Right. You compose at all? Yes, I do a little composition there and there. I've done a lot for church in terms of various things. But you haven't rented your choice? No, no, I haven't. Not at all. Not at all. Okay, let's talk about the other love affair with education. What drew you? I mean, was it just this Mr. Boxill's intervention became a teacher trainer? And from there, or before that, you sort of had an inkling that you wanted to be an educator. Yes. Yes, teaching has always been one of my interests ever since I was a youngster. So I was also a teacher at Viewfort. Why? Why were you as a youngster interested in teaching? Well, I think it's difficult to say because there are a number of things I was interested in like in the music. And there was only about one or two people in Viewfort at that time with instruments that you could listen to. The other thing was teaching because you saw the nuns, you saw a schoolmaster, you saw, and the community looked up to a teacher at that time. So you felt, well, that must be something worthwhile. The prestige, yes, available. And so forth, you know. And that sort of drew my interest. And I recalled, you know, at one time, I was having second thoughts about it and consulted my father. And he gave me some very good advice and I stayed in teaching as a result of the advice. The advice was? The advice was if you're escaping it in order to avoid difficulties, then wherever you go, difficulties would arise. But if you love what you're doing, you'll overcome the difficulties. And I thought that was so very useful. Okay, and so that's how you began the affair with education. All right, now you mentioned, of course, you were a teacher-trader in 1950, I believe. And then you were in Specter schools in 57 to 61, then chief education officer in 1961 to 72. Now why I'm quoting these years is that I want your perspective of the education system back then as somebody who was so integrally involved in it. All right. Well, let me say a few things if you don't mind before I get to this. Because I spent almost 48 years as a public servant and of that, 14 years, I spent 14 years as a teacher. The remaining years were in educational administration. So I've had a pretty long period in educational administration. I also had periods during which I moved away from St. Lucia for a short while in order to do other things, but still in education, administering. Like I worked in two UNESCO projects, one in Jamaica. It was Caribbean-wide in terms of curriculum development and using new devices and innovations in teacher education. And the other was based in Barbados. And again, it was a UNESCO project, but it was education for innovation for education development. So in this regard, I find that even when I was away from education for a while, I did it in a different sort of way that gave me new experiences. Having said this, then perhaps I should make two points before I get to the education. One is during the period I worked in education, it is interesting or maybe interesting to point out that I worked with four ministers of education. Four, yes. Former Minister Hunter J. Fraswa. Former Minister deceased of revered memory, Alan Busquette. And Minister Kenny Antony, former Minister. Before he, yeah, he was Minister for Education, yes. That's right, for education. And former Minister Louis George. Yes. Now I mentioned this because I think I want to say that I enjoyed a very harmonious working relationship with all of them. And notwithstanding the fact that the political administration, which they represented, differed from one person to the other. And their own personal orientations and the policies that they were prepared to implement, I was able to work with all four. Now, as I reflect on our 25 years of independence, I think we have achieved much in education. In the first instance, I would like to indicate the reasons for my comments in terms of saying, we've done remarkably well in education. If we think of the commission that was established after the riots in the 1930s to look, to report on the situation in the Caribbean at that time, in education, they indicated the schools were not enough to cope with the numbers and were in a bad state. With regard to teachers, they said they too were inadequate and their training was defective. With regard to the curricula, they said it was ill-suited to the mass of people that were served. Now, I think, although there may be some argument in respect of what has happened over that period of time or whether we can say the same thing with regard to today, my view is I don't think we can because there has been major development with regard to schools, with regard to the training of teachers and also with regard to the curricula. The other point that I want to make is another educator looking at the situation in the 1960s pointed out that as political responsibility and control passed into the hands of St. Lucian's and as the prospect of economic development became a possibility. St. Lucian's were preferring their own solutions to the development of education and I think the telling phrase is and lines of development were clear and consistent. Now, I think it's because of in first instance the political development at that stage leading to independence and then getting the momentum of dependence it has been carried forward to this day, then we can look at a number of things that have happened during that period that didn't exist before and in the light of that I'm saying there has been progress. Now, perhaps I can put that situation starkly by saying in the 1960s the government of the day applied and tried to argue for the establishment of a secondary school in Vufort in the South and the reaction was when you think of the population of St. Lucia, we are reasonably well served as compared with others with two secondary schools. So we're not seen worthy of much education, is that it? So the entire island should be served by just two schools and that was okay. But it is also making a point as far as I could infer in terms of how right one was to move in the direction of independence. You see because the distance from the mother country and not only the distance, it means the lack of understanding of the aspirations of the people, you know, meant that we had to press along in terms of saying that was necessary. And we eventually got to school, the government eventually got the school in Vufort but I raised this merely to show what was the attitude and if we look at that situation and look at it as of now, we can see that there has been tremendous expansion in this regard. And a different thinking obviously. And a different thinking. And not only this because one also has to bear in mind as part of the different thinking that at that time, most people and especially economists were beginning to point out the relationship between education and national development and how we couldn't go very far in national development without paying attention to education. So if we think of what has happened in that light, we can say that we have not done badly in education. So you say independence was a thrust movement forward and without that who knows what would have happened to the education. Yes. So I think this is what I really wanted to say. Not only that we've gone far, but also education has given an appropriate stimulus to national development. Yes. So and also giving us a picture of what the education seemed was like. Indeed, was like that at the time. Now, I don't mean to embarrass you. Before the interview I asked you about, I gather there was a Calypsoanian who had taken the issue with you. Yes. Mighty, mighty. I was told to ask you about this. What was the context? Were relations between yourself and say that the teachers or the education so at the time strained. What gave rise? I think it was the second boss, I think you've recorded that. It was interesting. I took this in a light hearted way, you know. And to the extent that about that time, I remember a lot of the Calypso tents and carnival took place at the banana shed in those days. And I was in the audience when that was being sung. So I don't think, but during that time it is expected that you would have problems with teachers, with other persons in education because one is moving in a direction. You know, one is innovating. One is attempting to introduce new ideas into the educational system. And for some people that is threatening and there would be a certain measure of resistance. But of course we tried and I came from a background where I made a specific study of the whole business of innovation and introducing change within a system. So I wasn't going to be easily... Deterred by my team. Deterred by my second boss. So I assume that the boss then was the minister of education. And the second boss was the one who was making all of those demands on education. I see, which was you. Which was me, as chief education officer. I see, well all right, now speaking of innovation, you spent eight years at the Seraphilus Community College as principal. When you first went to the college, what sort of vision did you have? What did you want the college's project to be? Well, I think I'll have to go back a bit. When I was asked to take over the Principalship of the college, I met with the College Board of Governors. And prior to that, I was away for about five or six years based in Barveras in that UNESCO project. So I had to meet with the chairman of the board and members of the board in order to get a vision of their aspirations for the college. What did they want for it? What did they want for that college? And I know that they were thinking of having a college, bringing a lot of the institutions together as one. And from the advice that they got, that that would have been economically more viable than the separate institutions operating as such. Now, from my own background at that time, I thought that there was a lot of merit in this. And I read the report which was issued by a committee to the Minister of Education indicating what they had in mind in terms of community college. I read that thoroughly and I was sympathetic to this point of view because in my studies abroad, especially in North America, I had done quite a bit with regard to the community college, the junior colleges and whatnot. And I saw that as a good movement in terms of being able to provide a form of tertiary education in a manner that enables one to bring together several institutions. And I attempted to do this and I had looked at what happened in the UK. At that time, they were thinking mainly in terms of secondary grammar school, secondary technical school, secondary modern school and so forth. And then I looked at what was happening in the United States with the junior schools, the senior schools, and I took a particular interest in the community college idea. And when I came and realized that they were interested in having that sort of institution, I thought, well, I'll give it a shot. Perfect, yes. I was very absorbed in the whole idea and in the work at the college at that time. What for you, what did it represent? What sort of potential did it present? The community college model for St. Nusha? One, I think you had a number of distinct colleges at that time, the college of technical, the college of teacher education and whatnot, plus other colleges in the community. And it looked like you needed to have an institution that would be recognized for its excellence, you know, and therefore be as it were a hallmark for the people of the community in the first place and also for the rest of the Caribbean to see that a small territory can make a success of something like that. And therefore I try to get things going and one of the early concerns was the whole problem of if you're going to do that and follow it, you probably have to pay attention to three things. One, of course, the teachers. And then we began saying, what is it we need for the teachers? And we were able to put in place two major things. One was a salary scale, which was different from the rest of the salary scales. And therefore it became an attraction for teachers to feel they would want to work at that institution. The second thing, where large numbers of people work, the relationship must be governed in some way. Then we began to look at what are the regulations that would govern the teachers. And the third thing, if we're going to move towards excellence of some kind, we've got also to move our teachers to a higher level of professional competence and attainment. And in this regard, we were able to persuade the government to ensure that a certain number of scholarships were available to us so that we could have our teachers go and do further and higher education courses abroad. And come back enriched. And come back enriched. So these were three important planks to begin with in order to set that whole platform for the takeoff. What do you think about the college's status now? Has it veered off the path that you just outlined? Has it improved? You've left for quite some time now, but what's your view of it now, looking back? Well, I think that they have built on a lot of the things that we had done. I don't know that they have discarded many, you know, but I'm quite impressed that they've been able to maintain standards and probably carry that even further. The other thing that I sort of can say about the college, because I don't have a lot of other information about it is, it did seem to us when I was there that we needed to have an assessment of what we're doing at the college after a period of time in order to say, what are we to be doing? And then the board agreed and we invited Acty to mount a Caribbean sort of group to come in and have an assessment of our college. And they did that and gave us the benefit of an evaluation of what they thought was going on. And what did they think? And that was very encouraging. Really? They were positive. Very encouraging. Yes. Very encouraging. And you shared in that assessment. I shared in that assessment. So I thought that was very good. Now, the interesting point to your question there too is that as far as I'm concerned, I've always felt that I would be at the college for a certain while and leave the college because of my conviction that you need different people with different skills at different times in the development of an educational institution. So I left at a particular point and then came another principle and then we had the third principle now. And I think with the information I have available I feel very well about the achievements of the college, the direction in which it has gone and some of the things that it has done. Of course, there will always be problems. Yes. And I've read some of those in the local press in terms of what's happening. And I think with a large institution like this, it is always difficult in order to deal with a lot of problems. And some of the problems are financial, but in order to get over the financial problems, you have to do certain things which in the immediate run would have pay short-sighted to members of staff and others, but in the long run to do something else. If you have available some money and there are difficulties in obtaining money in sufficient amount from government to do the kinds of things that need to be done and then one has to be very careful, what do we do? You can spend this money easily on a number of things and then have nothing to show for it. And then you can do other things to be able to say we need structures that would facilitate our students, that would enable them to work better, that would enable us to introduce new courses and to the extent to that you can do this, something is well done. But I think all the institutions in my day, we had problems too. And I would imagine some staff probably felt I should be doing some other things instead. And partly because of the reason that even if we're skilled, we can't do everything. And hence the reason why I feel it is important after a period of time for you have to have changed so somebody with new skills can take the college to a higher level. Yes, and new eyes, yes. Now before we move on a bit about your career as a civil servant, I need to ask this question. Do you think we're seeing education too much as a panacea for our problems? Every time you hear about economic development, you hear you need education, education. Mr. Thomas, we're now we have, I mean, triple, quadruple the number of schools maybe 10 years ago or so on Island. And of course, Sir Arthur Lewis is there. It has expanded its programs. And as you said earlier in the interview, there has been tremendous progress as far as education is concerned on this Island. What do we have to show for it in terms of the level of our development? Or are we expecting too much from education? That's a very interesting question. And it takes me to a thought that has been bothering me for a long while. Despite the fact that we've had this tremendous development, I've been reflecting for some time. And each time we have independence around, it becomes a heavier burden on me. And it is this, that the behavior of our people would seem to suggest, and here I'm referring mainly to adults, because the established institutions have been taken care of, granted they've got their deficiencies and that needs to be addressed. But by and large, there is a setting, there is an environment, there is a process by which you can deal with that. But what I find is, in the behavior of our adults, we don't seem to be able to see that they have some appreciation for what freedom really is and what discipline means. Now, it doesn't make sense really to say our community requires schools to do a certain thing, to transmit certain values, and then the adults in the community are not exemplars of those values that they're saying the school ought to communicate. The result is that there is this disconnection and students who are in school and required to behave in a certain way don't see a reflection in the adults out of school behaving in the manner that they're told they ought to behave. And that is quite a big problem in this society. And I think we need to educate our people a little more. We have been. Yes, but when we talk about education, in the minds of so many people, they're talking about schooling. Formal education. The business of going through a school. And when we think of an age in which we live, and we hear of adult education, and we hear education is not something that finishes with school. It starts and it goes right on. We think of various ways in which people have devised structures to facilitate adults to inform and educate themselves. Then we really have to begin to say to help people realize what freedom is all about and what discipline is all about. By that I mean freedom is not merely to say, we have been freed from the shackles of whatever that may be, or whatever it is, but it's also not freedom from only, but freedom to do something, to achieve something. And I think to do something and especially to achieve something requires the discipline. And therefore these twin concepts seem to me to be important pillars that should be part of our adult education program so that every community would have a new thinking in terms of what freedom is. A new thinking in terms of how important it is to discipline ourselves in order to be able to achieve and help in the development of what you're saying through development. So I'm saying in this regard we have been concentrating a lot on the schools. We need now to focus on the people because we have to think in terms of that behavior and it has become a truism in terms of saying it is the adults that influence the young. So if we have the adults doing the right things in their communities and then I think they become exemplars for their students and then there is less of that disconnection. And there's change. So I think I would like to hope that in this regard we can inspire people by some kind of strategy in the whole process of understanding freedom in both its senses freedom from and freedom to. And all the same time the importance of discipline in terms of we can achieve practically nothing unless we are disciplined. We have a disciplined approach and disciplined mind and I think we've got to do something to help about that. Okay, now every time we think of independence or most of us I think we think of country, service to country, pride in country and of course that is epitomized in my mind in the way of the civil service which is not supposed to be tied to political feelings and so on. And I think your own civil service careers of civil service, Mr. Thomas, exemplifies that you mentioned earlier you've served four different ministers for education. You're also a member of the Senate. You've also been appointed to sort of guide the public sector reform process. For you, how do you regard the public service today and the whole idea of being a civil servant really serving country rather than political cause or political ideology? Do you see that waning, that sense of service to the public and service to the common good? Well, that's not a difficult one. It's a matter of trying to find out how I phrase it. Let me sort of put it this way. I don't think the momentum that was envisaged in terms of public service reform has been achieved. That's my own assessment of this. Now, some of us tend to underestimate the value of the civil service in the economy and social structure of a country. And it seems to me that the public service reform is an important vehicle that we can use in order to set a group of people an organization that a government has some control over to be right. Because that organization serves the public. The public has certain perceptions of that organization. As the organization grows, then problems become a little greater. And yet we live in an age where we've got to help people to move from a certain paradigm that they were used to in the past to a new paradigm. And in order to do that, it means we rarely have to have a public service reform where people can deal with that. I am aware that maybe some of the rules and regulations are obsolete and need changing. But then one should not use this as an excuse to sort of get away from regulations completely. Because where people live and work in order to do that harmoniously, there must be the kind of regulations, there must be the kind of conventions that they respect. And that is where I think I wanted to make the point that when I worked with four ministers, it is over a period of time and granted, changes probably much more rapid now than it was then. But there were changes that required us to make adjustments as we went along. But there were certain things we accepted as given in respect of behaviors on the part of public servants. And not only when I talk of behaviors, I'm not just merely talking in terms of ethical behaviors. I'm also talking in terms of strategies and processes that should be used in the course of their work. So that at least they can carry forward the new civil service, the new facilities that they need to be able to get the government ticking and get the economy ticking and then have the support and the respect of the community as they do that. Yes, and the public that they serve. So that's your take on it. Alright, Mr. Thomas, you're recently Dr. Thomas. Okay, before we wrap up, we must talk a bit about your recent honor. You were given an honorary doctor of laws, I believe it was, from the rest of the West Indies. How do you feel about things like that? You've been the recipient of an OB, even a knighthood. Not yet. From the church. That's right. How does that make you feel? It's obvious you feel good about it. What are your terms? Well, it's a recognition of the value of the services I've rendered in various fields and it is also a recognition not only of the value but also of the effect of that kind of contribution. The impact that it can have. I am usually reticent about talking about these because for every one person who has been so recognized, one can say there are lots of other persons who also are working hard and need to be recognized. So I certainly don't want to gloat into this. But at the same time, I am grateful that I have been recognized in that way for the contribution that I've made. For example, this coming from the University of the West Indies, or University of the West Indies at this time, I've said it before and I think it is a recognition of what has happened in education in Saint Lucia also. Because I have worked in one capacity or another with the University over 40 years in a variety of ways. As chief education officer from the time the college was started, teacher education college that is even before the amalgamation and the Arthuris Community College and various other colleges, I've worked in that respect. I've worked with University of the West Indies, involved with Carycom, involved with various other groups like technical groups and so forth involved with CXE. I have over the years continuously worked in somewhere other with the University of the West Indies. So that is merely saying that the University of the West Indies in fact has had an opportunity over a period of time to assess the quality of my contribution to education and I'm grateful that they have recognized me in that way. And almost in way, Saint Lucia as you said, strives in education by extension. Final thoughts Mr. Thomas on independence, 25 years throughout this interview, it's obvious that your contribution has been very much education, civil service but what marks it is a commitment yes and not just individual ambitions and so on. For you, how do you feel about this particular landmark independence celebration 25 years from your perspective? You know it's easy to criticize you know, sometimes I keep on saying has it been sufficiently has the importance of 25 years of independence been sufficiently well articulated that people understand what has happened over the 25 years and why that has happened over 25 years. In fact that is a summation of some of the things that I have said in terms of not only the progress that we have made but what development is all about you know and therefore I don't know I'm probably not sufficiently in the know I don't get the impression you know that people sort of geared to think well about their country sufficiently well about what is happening and that 25 years means something to them and this is what I would have expected you know to have happened and I don't think I'm getting that that is my perception I haven't heard the comments of others on this but it might be interesting but I would have thought that we would have spared no pains in order to get all sections of the community all sort of being involved you know and I know it's easier said than done so that at least it cannot be said that everything wasn't done in order to ensure that people understood the meaning of this one and the other thing that I want to say about this 25 sort of years that is an important milestone and it could have been an opportunity to galvanize people in terms of where we want to go for the next 25 years you know and I think that is important even if we don't get there we need a vision because again it comes back to what I was saying earlier that as a result of independence itself we're saying there was a clear direction in which education was moving and the lines of development were consistent I'm not saying they are any more consistent now but we would have liked to make sure that you wanted people to participate and understand the direction in which we're going and that I think is the way I see it but like everything else I think it's easier said than done well we'll have to leave it here we're actually out of time but it has been very stimulating and I've learned a whole lot thank you so much for being on the program pleasure, thank you very much