 Okay, so welcome most more everyone to its lecture in the Swar's World Philosophies lecture series. As you know the Swar's World Philosophies lecture series is organized by the World Philosophies team at Swar's University of London and we started running this January last year. Some of you have been part of the journey and we've enjoyed quite a number of interesting lectures and conversations around world philosophies around epistemic injustice, epistemic colonization, personhood, and so on. But this year, we've started focusing on lectures or discourses on specific philosophical traditions. So, for some of you were here in February, we looked a bit at Mexican philosophy. We had Professor Sanchez talk about existentialism, and today we'll be looking at a very interesting and important aspect of Chinese philosophy. So you all welcome to this lecture, and I thank Dr. Andrew Hines who is one of the core teaching members of the World Philosophies program for joining us. We have other core members who can't make it at the moment, Dr. Sean Hawthorne who is the head for world philosophies, and Dr. Bion Freda, who I'm not sure if he's here now, yet might be able to join us later. So, today we have the pleasure and the honor to hear the lecture delivered by Professor Rony Litujan. Rony Litujan is the Chinese Distinguished Professor of Philosophy and Director of Asian Studies at Belmont University. Litujan is widely published in Chinese philosophical tradition. His works include the very recent and fascinating book which I use for some of my modules, Chinese Philosophy and Philosophers, published by Bloomsbury in this year, 2022. Other of his works include Introduction to Confucianism, published by the Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press in China in 2020, the historical dictionary of Taoism, published by Roman and Littlefield in 2019. The Museum and Introduction, published in 2009, and he's also co-editor of Riding the Wind with Lazy New Perspectives on the Taoist Classic, published by Sony Press in 2011. He is a recipient of the Foreign Scholar Award from the Henan Province Ministry of Education, and he was one of the only three foreign scholars asked to speak at the dedication of the Lazy and Taoist Cultural Center in Louis County in 2009. So we have before us someone who is an expert in the field and who is widely published in Chinese philosophy. It's really a privilege and an honor to introduce him and to listen to his lecture today. So we'll have him speak for maybe 40, 45 minutes thereabout, and then we'll have enough time for questions and comments. As I said earlier, feel free to drop your comment or question on the chat as the lecture goes on and we'll attend to it after the lecture. Professor Lutujun, you have our attention. Thank you so much, Elvis, and let me express my appreciation to you and to Andrew, to everyone at the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. It's a great honor for me to be here today. And we have many experts in Chinese philosophy who are here. I see so many names appearing from whom I have learned a great deal. Nice to see PJ, Ivan Hoke here, and David Chai, and my good friend Karen Ly from whom I've learned a lot. And so many of you, I could take a few minutes and name every one of you. It would take me all of my time and then some to comment on the things that I've learned from you. So I hope that we will have some stimulating conversation, and I'm sure we will not all agree, but we will all learn from each other. And I'm very appreciative of your attendance today. Thank you so very much. So I'm going to share screen and as Elvis has suggested I've prepared a PowerPoint to walk through. So a few of the slides may seem to you to be a little busy with text and I apologize in advance on that but I will, I'll try not to read to you, but I did want to follow the directions of Elvis rather than just read a paper so give me a second. So our topic today is contemplative transformation in early Taoism we're going to be talking about figures who could be called perfected persons with the Chinese Jen ran or superlative persons with the concept. during throughout our conversation today. And so I laid out I kind of plan for us. And just to keep myself organized and, and hopefully to let you know where we're going and how we're moving through things I'm going to first of all mention just a few individuals will look at a few text and I think without exception all of these are taken from twangs it because the corpus of Dallas war and text on perfected persons is very extensive. It would even include, for example, go Hong's fabulous work, as well on on immortals are transcendence, as our friend Rob cap and he caused them. So, I'm just going to refresh our mind on who these people are we're talking about who have been changed by contemplated practice. Then secondly, I just want to look at the actual regimen used and we will reconstruct that from various texts. And also, we'll look at the very famous in seminal essay. So, so long, setting and forgetting or setting in oblivion as a Livia con translated. And then lastly, and maybe our main focus will be on just what it is that I think happens in the practice of Dallas con contemplation. And here I'll enter into conversation. Probably most directly with how Roth with Harold Roth, and his essay on bimodial consciousness so that's more or less the plan that I've set out for us and again by Elvis's suggestion, we'll maybe go through and save our questions. Until the end. And so please jot down questions or comments that that you'd like to make we I know I am very interested in hearing your comments as well. So who were these were these persons. In the doubt aging, there's just one snapshot of these individuals where they are character characterized in pretty much I would say poetic sorts of descriptions but I think by just looking at this you can see how remarkable the individuals were regarded and how distinctive they were regarded and whoever was a transmitter of this particular logon into the doubt aging makes use of all sorts of Dallas imagery for example that these individuals are receptive as a valley. This is an image that shows up a great deal in the doubt aging in PJ oven host translation he also makes a very significant point about the role of the valley and the role of the feminine, which is receptivity is shapeable as a block of wood and of course, those of us who are students of that here they're talking about not a manufacturer block of wood or an uncarved block of wood that then becomes shapeable by their contemplative practice. This is one snapshot and you can take a minute to read this through. It's probably one of the most famous passages in drawing so talking about the perfected persons here called spirit persons or spirit men who abide in the mountains of Gusha. Now so actually we will see along the way that contemplative practice in Taoism up till maybe the second century of the common era was very often related to caves and mountain dwellings and Thomas Michael myself and others are pointing out many times the significance of caves and in Dallas in early Dallas practice, especially in the cultivation of contemplation and if we have time. I'll try to comment along the way on why I think that this fact is quite significant, not just in China, but across India, especially northern India and into Europe into the Mediterranean area, and we would find the pre-socratics engaging in contemplative practice in cave dwellings as well, partly because caves played such a significant physical or spatial role in being able to follow the regimen to enter contemplative states. There are many, as you know, created dialogues and ended dialogues in the drawings of where Confucius is the main actor and is often made to speak as a Dallas. And this is one of those from the sixth chapter. Here he is responding to a question from Zucong, one of his most prominent disciples in which he is trying to describe these individuals, the Jen Ren and how they look so different. And for me, maybe I will read a little bit of this. Such men as they said Confucius, wander beyond the realm. Men like me wander within it. Beyond and within can never meet. It was stupid of me to send you to offer condolences. Even now they have joined with the creator and wander as men in the single breath of heaven and earth. Rightly they roam beyond the dust and dirt. They wander free and easy in the service of way. So again, just getting our feel for how these individuals might have appeared in a normal community or ordinary community. If you've been teaching Taoism, you know that one question that you often get from contemporary students is, well, how could you be a Dallas and still exist in a contemporary community. And I think that's a real question and one that should be taken with seriousness. The practices that eventuated in perfected persons were transmitted along the lineages. The juanza has several narratives in which it makes clear that there are long lineage student and disciple, disciple and master lineages, which carry along, not just teachings, but carry along instructions and practice. This is just one of them. But I think it's probably the most detailed in some sort of intent to respond to a question about where, where one gains the knowledge of contemplated practice. And in this particular response is given, of course, by very famous female Dallas master. And the last one of these here, maybe toward the end here, ordinary man strain and struggle against life. This age appears to them to be ignorant and blockish. But he takes part in 10,000 ages and achieve simplicity and oneness for him, all the 10,000 things are just what they are. And thus they info each other. So that's a little survey, very brief survey of what kinds of individuals I want to talk about. And I want to point to some of the central features of the Dallas practices that eventuated in these individuals acting and living as they did. Even though I've called attention right now to the drawings of primarily, and maybe one passage from the louts of without a gene. You can see that we could trace records of an illusions to the practices that eventuated in perfected persons. Throughout many texts and these tech span, a large period of time. The finance. For example, sort of would be about second century BCE, the typing gene would be maybe first second century of the common error. And then we have the, the stronger commentary on the louts and which the practices of particularly stillness, quietude of very important. We even have instructions from the community that produce that that particular commentary instructions on how to create a quiet room. And then that commentary was written. The, let's say second century of the common era by that by that time. It was not convenient. If you were trying to follow the Dallas way or the Dallas practice, trying to cultivate and oneself by contemplation wasn't convenient to go to the mountains and live in the caves so it wasn't necessary for the various new communities of Dallas to create instead quiet runs and every house every Dallas family was supposed to have one. It's the same sort of instructions set of formulas for contemplated practice in the ball boots. And in the text, all the way down to Wong Chung young's instructions on transformation, which would take us into the 12th century. So you can see a long history, and you'll notice on the right that the newly published work that came out in 2022 of Harold Roth, which is actually a collection of earlier essays written by Professor Roth, in which he will detail, not only the sort of regiment of contemplated practices, but we will reconstruct them from all of these texts actually. So this is what the reconstruction will look like. We find in these texts a recurring family of concepts, each concept pointing to a particular kind of practice, the practice of stillness. The practice of silence or quiet to the practice of making the mind empty void also associated with what's called fasting the mind. The practice of opening oneself in receptivity barley, particularly the matter, metaphor of the feminine, the feminine being receptive, not only because it is yen, rather than young, but because for example in sexuality the feminine is receptive. And then of course, the general term that is used sort of as a classification for the entire contemplative practice, the notion of for for one setting in forgetfulness. You can see then why caves were so closely associated with contemplative practice and early Taoism, especially the earliest forms of Taoism that we find instance in the Lao Tzu in the bonsa in the bonsa, and also, even in the finance. Because, you know, a cave is a is an area separated from the external. It's, it's filled with stillness, silence, quiet, quiet to the further you go in it. The more void it becomes so it is actually a space that makes possible the, the suspension of a sense of body and a sense of sense perception, which belong to the notion of shoe or emptiness. It's not just emptying oneself of discriminations like success and failure, or, or, or virtue concepts like courage or honesty that, that are benevolence or appropriateness as the Confucian would have it. So it's not just emptying oneself of concepts of the mind linguistically instantiated or rationally instantiated, but also of sense perception itself of awareness of body. And, of course, many studies have been done about just how radically space time and so forth are affected by being in a cave and I'm sure almost everyone's walk through a cave on some tour group when they've turned off the lights. But that's just a momentary blink of the eye. It takes about 15 minutes for a sense of disorientation to occur. And I'm suggesting that this was certainly a part of contemplative practice. And as it was known in early Taoism, the essay on setting in forgetfulness was written during the town period, and it's definitely the most important essay in terms of gathering together. And Sima Chang-jen, who wrote the essay collected material from the text that we that I've been talking about, and that we've already sort of hinted at and pointed to he watched carefully the recurrence of the concepts that I've tried to identify. And then he brought them together into basically a pattern of practice, which could be transmitted along master disciple lineages, and he's got seven steps here. And these you can see. And I hope maybe you'll have some questions about those a bit later on. Maybe a con has done a fine translation of that. Into English. So just looking quickly at the components of this practice still mess being one of them. There's a, there's an idiom in Taoism in early Taoism that we see specifically in the drawings. According to which a master is said to be able to make his body or her body, the body as an old dead tree and appear in such a far off state of mind. The mind is like dead ashes. Now when you read this, I don't know about you but this, this doesn't necessarily sound that appealing to me, but I think they're trying to capture what it is for one to look. On someone in a state of contemplative practice for a third party to look at this individual and all five of those instances or passages from drawings are recorded by an external observer. Maybe looking at Lao or some other figure and describing their appearance in this way. It's not unlike what we would find. In terms of description of parmenides, epimenides. Practicing what in what in Greek is called incubation. And so, again, in that practice, done also in a dark place, a cave, the practitioner is completely still and completely quiet. I dare say that the most famous of the exchanges or dialogue between Confucius and anyone else in the drawings that is Confucius's dialogue with Yan Wei, where Yan Wei talks about that he feels he is getting there. Because he can set in forgiveness, forgetfulness, forgetfulness, excuse me. I'm trying to drink a cup of coffee and that's got caught my throat. So, I think it's interesting to pay attention to Yan Wei's last response to Confucius. What do you mean set in forgetfulness? I let loose the conscious connection to my limbs and my physical structure falls away. I do away with sense perception and set aside what I thought I knew, and I can become identical with the great thoroughfare. This is what I mean by sitting in forgetfulness. Notice that, again, there's a real disconnection between body, sense perception, and what one thinks one knows that go on in this emptying and forgetting. Here Confucius is doing the instruction. The previous slide Confucius was the student, Yan Wei, the teacher. In this slide, Yan Wei is back to his traditional role of being a student and Confucius playing the role of teacher. Okay, so I think perhaps we will not stop right now and go further into slides about cave experiences and contemplated practice because I'm anxious to move on to a discussion of what happens. What is it that actually happens in the practice of Dallas contemplation. So in Ross essay, in which he's trying to address this question of what actually goes on in contemplated practice and early Dallas. He titles the essay by modal mystical experience. And Chi Wulan, which is the second chapter of transit. So, these terms in his title are very important by modal means two types of consciousness going on. And the fact that Ross definitely uses the concept of the mystical mysticism. And he's a big of mindfulness. He's speaking in and relying on work originally done by individuals such as Walter straight stays and also even William James on mystical experiences and what what they are like. He is saying that in the contemplative, and this is an interpretation in the contemplative experience of early Dallas. They experienced something both internal introverted and something extroverted. And he was the old analytical distinctions in epistemology between knowing that and knowing how so that argues that in in this contemplated mystical experience. There is first and entering a state of consciousness in what in which one gains knowledge, there is cognitive gain. This game may not be language. You know, sometimes when we think of thoughts, or what it is we know we're thinking in terms of a sentence, we're basically talking to ourselves when we're having a fall. Roth is not asserting that this kind of knowledge mystical knowledge is something that occurs in language. In fact, of course, we know that Dallas text often speak of the wordless teaching. And Roth makes the connection between the introverted cognitive mystical gain that occurs, and our normal form of expressing knowledge or, or thinking about knowledge claims or things we know. This is followed by a return to a reengagement with the world, a kind of extroverted consciousness where the mind is reengaged the body is reengaged in its daily routine but it's armed with this mystical knowledge. And therefore, Roth is using the mystical to distinguish it from knowledge that comes by sense, or by reflection, or by rationality. So, if you're talking about sources of knowledge. We would talk about senses and reason perhaps logic, and so forth, but he's multiplying these forces to include the mystical state of contemplative practice. And by means of this knowledge this game of something one knows. One has a know how one can act in spontaneous effortless action, which for which we can use the Dallas concept of the way. So do please permit me to read this quote. After the experience of merging with the way one has discovered the access at the center of the circle within. So when one carries this experience back into everyday life, and naturally maintains a connection to the way one can always respond spontaneously and harmoniously to whatever the situation demands to whatever said of it, other or that's it. These not categories are found in the limited way sure viewpoints that is external viewpoints of the world of those within one is interactive. So, as Ross says we write my best described the extroverted life that is enabled empowered get constructed by the introverted mystical experience as a Dow centered mode of being where Dow replaces ego or self. Now, I have some difficulties with this interpretation. I think embedded in this argument are some very significant philosophical traps. And one of them is the emphasis has been placed on mystical knowledge as another kind of knowledge, or another type of knowledge, which then sort of inserts itself between the practitioner and her movement. And sort of knowledge content has to be has to be specified or given. And maybe the Dallas text do speak of, you know, wordless teaching, but this to me as a philosopher this continues to exacerbate the problem of just what knowledge is getting here. And if you think about the very intense and extensive ways in which even the, the text from the criticizes thinking that the solution to the human predicament. And the feeling the human kind of ourselves and not even thinking that knowledge is the solution to this. In chapter two, for example, or parables like the parable of the Yellow Emperor and his black pearl. These are all meant to criticize the idea that knowledge is a solution to the predicament of the human being. I think there's another problem with the bimodal reading, and it is that it's continuing to preserve what we might identify as a very Western way of thinking about, let's say morality, where we might think of of rational morality, we might conceive of the entire moral enterprise as constructions of dilemmas and solutions of dilemmas and figuring out excusing conditions and matters such as this. Or we might think of care ethics and sentiment and so forth. And here I'm thinking of Michael Slope's work on moral sentimentalism, but his recent work and so forth, but if you think of so it's work here. I have to acknowledge really that he's still conceiving of a sort of rationalist sentimentalist split. And I think my argument is such a split like this never addresses the problem of will. As we know, or what it is we feel, we must still think about how to will, how to will it, how to do it, how to move our volition. So my argument is that what takes place in those contemplation is that the practitioner doesn't come to know something. But the practitioner herself himself is actually changed altered and altered not by knowledge, some sort of knowledge game, but altered by the practice in which they're engaging. This which produces a kind of alternative consciousness, which is really another way of talking about transformation. Dallas do say that a person is remade. I would pick any number of 30 or 40 I think examples of the analogs that Dallas text might between the practitioner or the general and perfected person, and one who has become newborn, who has become like an infant. The point of Dallas contemplative practice I think is not what it's leads to in in terms of leading to some sort of gain of cognitive knowledge even even some sort of quote unquote special knowledge like mystical knowledge, but rather what the experience consists in. And that is the actual transformation of a person. So the practitioner then doesn't rely on something that she knows from a mystical experience but rather something she's become. So I think that this is what that was some offers. Now is I wouldn't classify really as a soteriological tradition. But maybe it's more like a therapeutic tradition. But it's a very robust one. One meant to solve and break the whole of of the will. Between knowing and willing or feeling having sentiments and willing. And it's meant to break this whole by the transformation of the practitioner himself. Now, this also suggests something maybe even somewhat more controversial. And that is how the concept of Dallas being used here on oneness with down unity with down. I'm suggesting that these expressions are not meant to point to to a nominative the down. I'm not even a oneness with some sort of force that moves or inclines us. But rather oneness with with Dallas way of talking about the new being that has been made possible by contemplative practice. And it's not something that has semi Chen Chen Chen would have it in his seventh step, one achieved style. So that was not something to believe me and have a relationship with is not even something to use something to become. And maybe understood in this way. And then we can see a closeness between the, maybe the notion of Jen ran in early Dallas contemplated practice, and the Greeks die long. And almost, I think, are pointing to something very significant in their constructions, and their practice of contemplation, as, as they understand it, and that is a not an apotheosis of the human being. And this, I think maybe we should take the analogy of new birth rather seriously here. And I completed this. One Chong Yang was the founder. The complete perfection lineage of Taoism time Jen, still the major lineage of Taoism, active in China today. He describes his experience of contemplation as he speaks of himself as a now living dead man. So there's some sense in which he dies and is reborn in in this experience. And in his case, this experience found expression in his poems and his poetry, and I hope by now you had a chance to just redo this one poem because I think that it is an attempt to express how he feels himself recreate. So I want to thank you so very much for your attention. And look forward to your comments and questions along the way. So, Elvis, thank you for allowing me that time maybe I'm over a few minutes. Thank you so much, Ronnie. It was packed with a lot of information that cuts across a lot of theoretical issues and philosophy epistemology philosophy of mind consciousness and and before I could digest a bit you started another so I'm sure there'll be a lot of questions comments. Some may come perhaps after after this hour so to your email or something. Yeah. But thank you. Thank you so much for that was I was particularly interested in the idea that of how contemplative practice is not a route to knowledge, but some sort of altered being or changed being to the extent that it, it leads to, you know, it sort of bridges this by modality or binaries of knowing and willing sentiments and rationalism and so on. And that that's something I really like to, you know, hear a bit more about as but I would now ask for anyone who likes to, who would want to ask a question or comment. You can put it on the chat, you can raise your hand and we'll call on you to ask. So let's begin with Andrew please. Thank you so much Professor little John I learned quite a lot that was very informative so it was a huge pleasure to listen to. I was really one of the things that I think with my first years here at so as quite a lot about is the way in which philosophical ideas are shaped by the context within which they're, you know, written. And I was really struck by the section when you were talking about the concepts. You know, stillness not just being about stillness and this massively abstract sense but through the practice and I wondered if you could say a bit more about that like I know myself, living in London here it's massively gray. But when I go to Greece, I'm suddenly like, Oh, this is what Plato was talking about with the sun, you know, and I wonder how the, how the experience of the cave, which would shape, and I mean the cave and your research and how that experience would shape these concepts could you talk a bit more about that. I think in the earliest forms of what we might call balance practice. There's a lot of text right. So individuals are participating in behaviors. And for whatever reason, they're, they're living in in case this is just. I think anthropologically correct, because, you know, case or shelters. They're going to be secured, this sort of thing. And for my own point of view, they, by, by living in these they began to have certain sorts of certain sorts of experiences such as I've, I've described, and sometimes if, if you do have a sense where your sense really radically altered, you do get still. And, and then you can replicate the experience by following something that maybe originally wasn't followed by intention. And so then that's how it becomes a practice and that's how it becomes part of a regimen I think. And these I think predate the text, and the text follow as various kinds of expressions, or attempts to express what, you know, what's experienced. And there's a quite a book that's been influential on me by using over a Russian scholar who is called the caves and the Greek mind. And where she's primarily addressing the role of that form of living on priest-credit philosophers such as Pythagoras and Parmenides and Epimenides and I like the fact that we might think of, for example, Pythagoras, we may think of as a logician and mathematician, but actually Pythagoras was a priest. And he, and now we know that he, he lived underneath his school in a set of caverns and he trained his students there. And the form of initiation by incubation was, was a very important entry into his school and such. So I think we, we know that we're noticing a phenomena that is transcultural dating back to the fifth, fourth, fifth, maybe even sixth centuries BCE. Thank you, Rony. We have Ruth Schumann, the veteran has that right. And then after which we'll have Black Samus. Thank you, Alvis. Thank you, Rony. I think it's very good to pay attention to Taoism, Taoism. What I noticed in your talk is that you're saying there would be a perfected being, perfected person, even. So you seem to suggest that the transformation is of an imperfect person to a perfect person. And I think this is a typical Western thinking. Because it seems from Taoist text directly, that it's a transformation from believing yourself to be a person who has consciousness to realize that you are consciousness and having a human experience. So you're not a person having a conscious experience. You are consciousness, having a human experience. Once you realize that you are consciousness and that the human being is something that appears to you, then this human being, you see that this is part and parcel of what appears part and parcel of the world. And that person naturally acts, cannot do what it must do, what it will dictate it's to do. So this is Vai Wu Vai. This is the person does nothing in the sense that intentionally does anything. This intention is coming from somewhere we don't know where and this person must do that. So, he does nothing, and yet he leaves nothing undone because the things are happening. And I think the greatest practice to make this switch from identification with the human being to identification with consciousness are the practices you described, that you gave us the sense, the probation room of a letter. But especially also the butterfly for our, which is so famous. It is Chang Chu dreaming that he was a butterfly and then waking up and not knowing if he was Chang Chu or if he was a butterfly. And what is the answer. Neither he was neither Chang Chu. He was also not the butterfly. He was the one that was aware of having been a butterfly in the dream and being Chang Chu in the waking life dream. So this points directly at consciousness and then Chang Chu says this is the great transformation. Could you see something in that. Thank you so much for your, for your comments. I wouldn't drive too heavy a truck over this word perfected because the Chinese is Jen Ren and Jen can be just complete or actualized or often translated as true, true person. I don't mean perfection in this, let's say Greek sense or Western sense of perfection like moral perfection, something like that. And I do quite agree with you though I you know I didn't get into the question of consciousness itself I don't think the Dallas text are suggesting that. I don't know about this, but I don't think they're suggesting that we have a conscious or consciousness like something. And I think that's your main point, or one of your main points was that you know what. No we don't, we don't have a mind we don't have a consciousness in this sort of thing as an object. At all. And so when I'm talking about contemplative practice. Being a wedge become another person or for a transformation of course, I mean transformation of consciousness. Okay, here and we would, I think you and I would have a great time talking together about big and shines notion of consciousness and person and use of use of personal pronouns the I and so forth. So thank you so much for your comments. I was very impressed in the angle to discuss from. Thank you. Blake. Hello, Dr little john. I'm living the dream. Are you in Shanghai. For a week. I've got a flight back to Nashville. So maybe we should get some coffee when I get back. But I found your presentation, really relevant to me because I'm currently writing about the notion of goodness in Daoism for my thesis. This is slightly connected to the previous question from, I'm so sorry about your, your name, but rude Sherman. And so I'm not too familiar with the, or not as much as should be with the drawings. But in the doubted gene, we hear that the way the Dow takes its model from what is self so from what is a run. And so I was just wondering if there was a connection between the genre and like the perfected person. Just being what is self so, or if there's maybe those two things don't directly match up. Oh, I don't think they do match up I think the perfected person altered by the practice contemplated practice I've tried to describe in my new in general terms. This person then who ways, you know, he acts is rude suggested in the way moves away, and this is a kind of self sewing. Yeah, I think what I would caution us as we think about this, I would. The one question I would raise is not to think that there is some emulation of the good, or even the Dow as a good or following the Dow is good. Yeah, I think those, those will be dead ends for us that might take us down. The road of what route is costing us about, you know, importing Western Western readings onto the text or onto the Dow and so forth so I just, I've been cautious about that. Okay, thank you so much. And hopefully see you soon. I think you muted. Yes, sorry, I didn't know that. Thank you, Blake. So now we'll have Philip and then we'll have Helen. Thank you. So Ronnie as always it's edifying to hear you talk about these things and I had just to say my friend. You just kind of comments that I'd like you to then comment on it. One is about the cave metaphor or caves. And then the other is about your claim about knowledge. And these are just things really kind of suggestions that I'd like to hear you talk more about it because especially on the cave you talk about it being a good symbol for the quiet and the, that it conveys the ideas of quiet and silence. But it also as you were talking it made me think it's also a symbol of things like the female emptiness, the inner that it transcends the everyday in the sense of cuts off our contact with other kinds of the normal world. And then it also made me think, gee, it seems like it's almost the antithesis of the use of the cave in Greek thought so even though they're both using caves. You know, I think metaphors don't often don't carry all of their meaning until they're contextualized, but I mean for Plato the whole idea is to get out of the cave. You know, so I just thought it's a really, really interesting observation about, and I never really thought of caves in terms of their philosophical symbolism and meaning but I. So that that's just my first comment and I invite you to say something. The other thing's really short and that is, I think you're absolutely right about knowledge. You know, the role of, you know, the idea that somehow a special knowledge is sought for. I think if you go down that route you end up in the problem that Professor Sherman was talking about and that if you're conscious of something then you're still in a duality with something and separated from the world, and you can't get into the way and all these things. And I was thinking good, you know an example of it for me is are things like, you know, say you're a agoraphobic, right, and that's a not natural state to be not want to get outside right, so you want to get back to, again account kind of Dallas back to return to a normal healthy spontaneous state. You don't sit there and study psychology in order to overcome agoraphobia, you may understand the nature of your problem and some of the sources of your problem and you can have that special knowledge, but you're still afraid to go outside. What you need is to undergo a therapy a process of therapy where you're no longer thinking about how freaked out you are, but bring outside. You don't need the theory of psychology, because if you're a healthy person, you're a gender in, you're just going to go about your business, unselfconsciously. Yeah, those are my two comments on caves and on knowledge. Thanks again. As always, great thoughts, my friend so I, I agree with you totally that Plato's use of the cave is very different than we find in the pre socratics. And we in studying Greek philosophy we would know why right because Plato is trying to set himself off over a gas. A good deal of the other pre pre socratic tradition, just look at the essay on parmenides for example and if you think about that essay it's subject it's portrayal of parmenides and, and so forth. It completely deletes completely erases parmenides is role as as a priest himself. For whatever experiences he was having in case these days are really not not included, except that Plato wants to use the cave as a foil for all you see in the cable shadows you've got to go out and see the good and in truth. And for your second comment. I really want to latch on this idea of, of therapy, I suppose that my own reading of Taoism has really changed in the last 10 years, and I have come to understand, think of it primarily as a sort of therapy. And not in a sense of technical sense of psychology. I think your caution, there's really, really important. But it is meant sort of help us overcome a kind of problem, and it may be a problem of our own making these. I think that Dallas definitely think that we create our own, our own problems. We're the ones that puzzle our lives, we're the ones that trouble our lives, you know, it's like the person afraid to go outside is troubling himself as it were, and so they're offering us a way that's not appealing to cognitive knowledge. Lines of argument and so forth, but something that you do. So the practice itself is something you do. Even if that practice is quiet to and stillness. You, that is something you do. And this is meant, I think to be the therapy itself so I didn't do a very good job on your, your excellent comments PJ but thank you for sharing. Interesting contrast with the Platonic conception of cave and the Taoist or pre-socratic conception that that's something really worth exploring. Thank you, Philip. Thank you for that. Helen. Hi. Thank you so much. And thanks to this so as people for this absolutely fabulous series. I'm a counseling philosopher. I have been doing philosophical counseling for about 20 years I'm in Cape Town, and I've always had kind of a Dallas flavor to it, although it's been reading on my own and I'm certainly not as as skilled as the people who are talking here, but I'm so glad to hear you talking about therapy and the question. I'm so looking forward to the to the recording because I can follow up on all of these things that you've brought huge gifts. So one other aspect is I'm wondering about the relational, if there were relational practices if there were friendship practices between students other than and the teacher students. Well, how, how were these people relating with each other in these practices. Thanks. The whole time I was prepared and it's taught Helen and I've been working with how we're also on this for several years. I've wanted this the same sort of thing because it looks like a very isolated form of practice where consider this you're moving out of the world of community away from other people. You're possibly more isolated, you're moving into a cave, you're eventually moving into darkness and utter stillness, you're not interacting with your world in terms of sense perception. And there's that passage from Zhuangzi where, you know, Zhuangzi is talking about sort of smashing, smashing his body getting rid of the body feelings and the sense perceptions that the hearing the touching to take tasting so forth. These seem to be moving more and more toward a kind of isolation, but we do know that the master disciple lineages were strong. And they're very well documented all the way back to the fourth century in in the Zhuangzi. The students are being sent by masters to other masters to study. Oh, I can't really. I've taken here as far as I can with that I'm going to send you over here. There's one whole chapter of Zhuangzi, the non wrong, the non wrong to chapter is all concerned with such an individual being moved around guns on to and so so forth so I feel a little bit at a loss, responding to this because I can be corrected please correct me if I'm wrong, especially people like David Chai and so forth, who really know the terrain very well here, but I just feel sometimes that we don't have strong dollars communities until about the second century. CE. And if that's right. Then you've got appeared about 400 years where you, where you have largely an individualistic kind of tradition or very small groups of master disciple lineages and small communities that might arise. That looks like it's triggering triggering you to a thought Helen please don't, don't be shy. Thank you. Right. Yes. Hi, Dr little john. How are you, how are things at Harvard. Going very well thanks. I just passed my exam so happy. Oh, congratulations. I was really struck. First of all, I appreciate picking up on a number of things people said about your point about Dallas practices therapeutic. And you kind of contrast that with so teriological kind of continuing that strand I'm really interested in the language of death that you were picking up on. Particularly as it relates to kind of returning to, to the state of infancy or something like that through contemplative practice. I'm wondering though, you know, considering other elements of Dallas practice and, and concerns particularly with the kind of achievement or realization of immortality or longevity. If we might see those both at work both therapeutic and so teriological, or maybe, you know, considering the diversity of the tradition. If it just depends on who you're talking about and where, whether they are, you know, maybe being more therapeutic or so teriological or both. But anyway, so the language of death in particular struck me and I wonder if you could say more on that. Thank you very much for questions. I'm saying that I when I'm choosing therapeutic rather than so teriological to describe Dallas and I guess by so teriological I mean the dependence on something external to to save one redeem one transform one. Whether that in is in a kind of Abrahamic religious tradition sense. Or, as opposed to say to a Buddhist sense, Buddhist philosophical sense, but I so I don't think there's an external transformation here. I don't, but you're quite right that it does depend on the context and community doesn't because certainly by the second century of the common era maybe even before, we definitely see Dallas communities, thinking of external transformation of God's that do things for us and so forth. And I don't know exactly how that arises, how that shift arises. Maybe others among us doing and can share. But I think in these early practices and in the sense of contemplative practice. I think there's not an external like savior here and so that's why I'm kind of trying to move aside the so teriological idea to the to the therapeutic idea. Now on the matter of death. I do think that even even back into the drawings of the process of contemplative practice, the consciousness that gets sort of transformed there. Can verbalize the experience as, as dying to something the past something passes left. And by the time you get to remember I had that like last poem about from long time young, by the time you get to the 12th century. He's speaking of himself as the living dead man. I mean one actually created actually dug a cave himself. And called it a great. And, you know, the, the hagiographies of one. Describe him as living a lot of life and debauchery and so forth. So in almost traditional kind of redemptive story that he lived this wildlife and had to be had to be reborn from it had me kind of save from it not the Dow saved him. He does speak of a dying to that life. And are, but I think more in general, apart from someone like one, the story is that one dies to the constructions that one is made that are counter therapeutic that tend to tie us in knots and such. Well, Ryan, I feel maybe I didn't do that. That well and responding but I wonder if you have further opinion that trigger thoughts for you. No, those are those are great thoughts. One thing this random my triggers is it just makes me think of the late Neo Confucian long young being, and his experience of kind of in in his coffin, you might say, enlightenment kind of experience that kind of triggered his later but I don't think that's related. Maybe it is but I don't think so. Well, we've got a couple of experts on one on me will is this afternoon PJ and David Chai, you know, both know great deal about one on me. You know one has those of you maybe don't know one on me one has a notion. The notion of Leonger, which is a kind of, which is a kind of knowledge. And as I was working on this presentation as I've been working on this presentation. It's coming up in my mind, whether one was trying to find a way to talk about a sort of knowledge to talk about what the gain in the contemplative experience, still in some sort of epistemological six. Still in some sort of knowledge sets but I just feel that this is a transformation and and not a cognition that's gained in this experience. Thank you. Thank you. We'll have Dennis. Ronnie. Good to see you. My question or more of a thought is actually exactly what you just finished with about knowledge. So I agree if we think of knowledge as something kind of propositional knowledge that as people say, there is a problem with this kind of notion of mystical knowledge and it also doesn't seem very way if that's what's leading to to action. But what if we think of knowledge as more as knowledge how in that kind of dichotomy, which I think works better with way which I've never understood. Yes, it's lack of self consciousness or deliverance but it's not mindless. And we think of code being for example it does sometimes seem to entail some kind of expertise. So then the question is, sort of some kind of transformational experience that leads to knowledge how, and since one young man came up I also was thinking about the unity of knowledge and action in one young man. It's, it's a great point because long recognizes. In the same time before I did in ways much more sophisticated than I. He's recognizing this problem of the wheels is still there, because knowing how, knowing how to perform something, or how to do something is still your still have the problem of the will to do it. And so this is why with Leon Gere with this notion, he's trying to put knowledge and action together. I think what he's doing is he's pointing to the problem more than solving the problem for us. I don't. What do you think Dennis you. I was thinking, so why don't I make an example at the recognize the odor is foul is to dislike this was not like a two step process first you smell it then you just like it it's just all at once. So I think we definitely want that kind of unity that whatever sitting in caves and doing these things does it just. It's finished it manifests as just an ability to go into the world and act in a transformed way. So yeah, I mean I think your right to want to insist on that as not a two step process at first you have some kind of knowledge and then you go out and you practice it. It might also be kind of an interesting way to think about it and at least some models of therapy as you reach some realization and then your agriphobia disappears or your inability to navigate social occasions disappears. So I'm trying to think of an sort of mundane example of a transformative experience that leads to some kind of new skill I think I come up with fun I'll let you know. Thank you. Yes, not to take up all the time but if I may comment on on Ryan and Dennis and Ronnie. And Ryan started with this question of death. What what is it that dies. The common credo is to die before you die. And what it is that dies, I think is the person that we take ourselves to be. Because we come to realize that we are not that person that has consciousness, but that we are consciousness. And this is something completely different I don't mean consciousness, depending on the brain or being an aspect of the mind or being a mental phenomena, but to be consciousness to be that capacity to be conscious of other things. So what dies at that moment is the belief in being the human being in the person. That person is what creates what is trouble because that person grows old and will get ill and will die. And we have to make sure that he's not too cold and that he's fat and that he blood circulate and that he breathes and you know that that person is the problem thing for us. Once we lose the identification with the person, we are free. We realize that we are consciousness and that then coming back to Dennis is I think the only true knowledge, absolute knowledge we can have. That is that I am consciousness I can only speak for myself in the end perhaps. Taking the solipsistic point of saying I am consciousness and all else is object to me. So this, when I see that when I realize that I'm consciousness, then I notice that this person is not so much doing is not acting, but is being done. This person, the human being consists of genes is conditioned in a certain way finds itself in certain circumstances, and those things determine what this human being will do. It's not free to choose it's it's being done by whatever the whole thing that's going on, and that in to realize that is that it's not a problem this person is doing is harmonious. It's not sitting here, it's not sitting here, but it can never be a conflict. The only conflict the only problems we have are thinking problems. If we think that it should be different than it is then we have a problem. When we realize that what is is exactly what has to be what ought to be what is necessary. Then we are free. So, just a comment. Thank you. Yeah, interesting comment and really, the connection to the conversation so far. This, this idea of contemplative practice and how it leads to consciousness as it were. It's a fact that person, whichever concepts concept we would want to go with. It seems it happens. So literally, you know, it happens within the subject. And, and I was just thinking, how much of that was in talks about inter subjective consciousness where, where we did where we depend on others and have, and I think that transformation or perfection through relationships. In relationality in terms of the subject of consciousness is part of the. Yeah, it's part of the contemplative practice. I would really like to hear your thoughts on that, particularly because of the perspective I'm coming from which is the African philosophical perspective, and a lot of emphasis on relationality and inter subjectivity. Yeah. So yeah, any thoughts running on that. We've got your finger right on the major difference between Confucianism Dallas, right, because Confucianism inter relationality is so important, we're created by each other and we create each other. And I, I were categories of relation or, or more, but certainly we, we don't only need each other but it's in that that our delight comes are solving other quandaries of existence, and of our life together, come through the messiness of our life together. And whereas we've definitely been seeing the discussion of contemplative practice today, we've been seeing a kind of move in another direction, more toward isolation. But now, what I wonder is, is this not perhaps a natural outcome of what it means to practice contemplation. And when we contemplate, do we can, when we practice mindfulness, can this be done together. Can we sort of cross cross consciousness as I suppose, as good as continue to remind us today. And I'm not sure that that it can. It could be that the nature of the practice itself is isolating moves towards isolation, rather than toward community. I would love to hear others comment on that. Yeah, and, and, and something quite related to that. Thinking of community now, more inclusively, beyond human community, but to include non human community environment. I mean, our very world in which we find ourselves. It seems that why there's not a lot of connection with the other humans. There seem to be a lot of connection with the other non human with caves with mountains with wind. And, and I was just thinking in terms of, of course, our contemporary experiences and climate change climate crisis and how much of a theoretical framework from Darwin's and can help repair relationships with the environment. Yeah, what I'm intrigued by their Elvis is your mention of non human animals and so forth because I think looking at how animals are portrayed. How they're talked about how they're engaged with endowism is very interesting. And, in a way, if you, if you take the view endowism, you know, like behold the animal or look at the animal. They're really kind of seen as the animal doesn't have the clutter of the mind that we do. The animal's mind is more simple. So the animal is living with the puzzle, the paradigm, the product doesn't problematize its existence. It is. So it's almost moving more towards zero and as Ryan was talking about, or maybe even way to animals way. I mean, I think you could make an argument for an affirmative answer on that in terms of dollars. But so you know you see this is very, very much in contrast I suppose to. So if you think of the way I was just teaching this few weeks ago, Nietzsche begins that little work on the advantages and disadvantages of history. Nietzsche begins to work talking about consider the cow, consider the cattle look out on this field, you know, you're looking at the cow or the cattle. And but Nietzsche doesn't idealize them. He doesn't look to move toward that kind of simplicity cows, cattle, non human animals. They have no notion of history. They, you know, they don't employ a reason and so forth. So his view is very, very different. He doesn't see or maybe doesn't feel that kind of simplicity that you see. That that a Dallas would would say so. That was that's just a few random thoughts about human non human world. Others might have much better thoughts than mine. I mean, it's very good. I mean, it's something worth exploring definitely. Thank you. Thank you so much. I think we've had very interesting conversations in the last of the 50 minutes. Based on a 40 minutes lecture and I'm sure it will, it will go on and on and on if we wanted to. There's a lot of interest you have sort of raised with your lecture running and many of us will be looking at quite looking at the lecture again. And for those who registered for the lecture will send the YouTube link once it's ready in the next few days so you can view it again and be able to reflect a bit more contemplative as well as contemplation is never rushed, I see. So any last questions or comments before we try to cut in. May I just say Elvis I would like to express my appreciation to everyone who came today for your interest. Please send suggestions improvements. I welcome I welcome them and thank you for those of you who ask questions. Thank you for your questions they were insightful and very stimulating. Appreciate the opportunity. We are very pleased to have had you today and to have enjoyed the lecture definitely. We've enjoyed all the questions and comments and it's been an opportunity to also meet new colleagues who I'm sure I'll be writing to and asking more questions based on their questions and comments as well. So thank you all for coming for enjoying the eighth lecture with us. We're looking forward to the ninth lecture in June. And hopefully we'll be having a talk on Arabic philosophy or so. And the next one in August. So we'll keep looking at some philosophical traditions of the world. They are very many and hopefully you'll be able to join us again. So thank you all for coming and do enjoy and love the weekend. Thank you.