 We are just in time for the next discussion of the day. This is on youth and politics starts which starts now. My name is Rahm Aguco. Thank you very much for keeping it Y254. It is a pleasure having you right this time. Make sure that you participate with us in this discussion on politics. This morning it's all about the BBI politics. It's all about BBI and BBI now is in the counties. So far 11 counties have endorsed the constitutional of Kenya amendment bill 2020 with only one county that is Baringo county rejecting the proposed constitutional changes. Now some 13 more counties are needed to hit the MAGIC 24 to propel the constitutional amendment process to the next stage and route to the referendum. Now according to Honorable Royla Amolo Odinga he calls this Tuesday a super Tuesday. That counties are going to vote. Campaign is fast moving towards these 24 county constitutional threshold with all eight assemblies in Uhuru's Mount Kenyabaki are also passing the bill. So far in regards to the bill we are expecting we expect to see lots of many county assemblies discussing this bill this week. We shall have county assemblies discussing this bill tomorrow. Some county assemblies discussing it on Wednesday. Remember Honorable Royla Amolo Odinga said that he is optimistic that by Tuesday which he calls super Tuesday by Tuesday more counties will have approved the bill and he expects that we will have reached the threshold of 24. That's right 24. So far we have 11 that have so far accepted or approved to this bill. What do you think? Is it going to be a super Tuesday? Is it going to be a day that we will see 24 county assemblies approving this bill? Time will tell. Give us your thoughts in regards to this. The hashtag as always is why in the morning at Y254 channel on Twitter at Ram Aguco. Joining me to discuss this I am with Meshak Ocheno the CEO of Youth Awak Youth Initiative. Karimu Sana Meshak. Thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. To my extreme left I'm joined by I will say horrible later. Get ready. Get ready. It's fine. A political activist and governance youth development expert Karimu Sana Meshak. Thank you very much. I said horrible because Ken has some desires. What are these desires? They are aspirations and I'm glad that thanks for your prayers. We call it by faith in action. Receive it. You see you ready when when you ready that what is wished for when it comes into fruition. It's possible that you can receive what you believe in. What you believe in and what others also wish unto you. Yes. You're buying for parliamentary seat in Butula Constituentia County. Yes. 2022. 2022. Do you see it coming? The time is coming. Whatever. The time is here. Parlementa receipt. Parlementa receipt. Now let's talk about the BBI. Since it is now it has now hit the county assemblies so far we see many county assemblies discussing this particular document tomorrow and others discussing it organously. During the Nisopa review segment we had a discussion we mentioned different county assemblies yesterday Meru County in particular. The speaker said that they are prepared to pass the bill and then we quote what the speaker said. That is that is the speak of Meru County majority the majority leader of Meru County that is Victor Karedi. He said that and I quote it will be unfair to the people of Meru if the assembly dropped the bill we shall therefore work closely with the with the other leaders to have the bill passed and I quote that is what he said and this is where I would like us to start from. People working so that the bill can be passed. Let me start with you Ken. Do you see this move as a right move especially for MC for MC is that people have to work so that that bill has to be passed and what work module should be looking forward to that is actually legally that is actually legal and a work module that does not contradict or convene the constitution because so far we are seeing county assembly saying that they have done public participation which some members of the public say that no they have not seen any public participation taking taking place so they say that they are working to pass the bill. My greatest motivation other than my vision for aspiring to become an MP is motivated by the gap that exists in leadership that gap is being demonstrated now you look at BBI the core duty of legislators is representation so before you present any views in the county assembly or the national assembly in this case the county assembly you are supposed to have a conversation with the people who elected you through public participation organized at the world level at the village level so when you hear when we hear stories about speakers about the right honorable the president MCS being coalesced and summoned in some places when we hear statements like we will work together with other leaders it's supposed to be we will work together with the people so that the MCS supposed to sit with the people have conversations on BBI and the respective people in those words are supposed to take a position so that when MCS goes to the word to the county assembly they have a position of the people no they they should be working together with other leaders based on the perception that it is on the floor of the assembly thereby meaning that it is other leaders will be discussing this document as a representative of the people before i sit on the table with other leaders i'm supposed to when i go to sit on the table with other leaders i'm supposed to represent the views of my people so when as an MCA you've not had a conversation with your people whose views are you representing on that table with other leaders do you see it coming to pass super tuesday super tuesday it was super saturday everything for me it's just it's just uh there's nothing super about it because there's no magic in it yeah these the outcomes are predetermined and that's why people are having those kama kunjis so that we just it's just an endorsement so at the end of the day for me there's nothing there's no hype about it those things are going to pass because bbi is a power mobilization strategy for the big fish and that's all that is going to be so there will be no super that is guaranteed honda barana odinga said and i quote get ready with your vote because super tuesday is coming where we are going to get 24 counties approving the bill and help us move to the next level will we reach that 24 county that number i actually wanted to talk about something before i i i address your question uh when we talk when he talks about bbi as being just a power structure you know for power only i want us that as we are having a national discourse like this on a national television um then we are able to robustly inform the normal monanchi of what bbi is so that we just don't reduce a nine you know point document um to just being power i think there are a lot of goodies that comes with the bbi even though i am not a bbi proponent but i must be fair to the document that it has a space for youths um talk about uh you know you know the talk about youth participation even in terms of national politics talk about how this bbi is going to revolutionize the economy even though it doesn't talk about economy but it has policies in itself that is going to revolutionize an economy to empower young people to become innovators so there there are other significant you know goodies that is coming with the bbi however when we talk about um the super tuesday um i mean it is going to be super like i said in the newspaper review section that this entire process has been incentivized right and all the key stakeholders have been put together to ensure that the entire process is whether it's it's going to ensure that other people are suppressed or you know other people fully participate and so that is why when they talk about other leaders in the current dispensation the constitution the 2010 constitution it says the will of the majority prevails what do you mean when you say that it will ensure that other people are suppressed and other people are not because obviously what do you mean by suppression because obviously when you hear the talk it's directed towards the bbi passing but the constitution gives you the latitude to let the people think about it whether they want to pass the the bbi or they don't want it anymore but you see when the public when the public when what is outside there to the public is that bbi must pass then essentially you are suppressing the ideas of the people who think that the bbi in itself is not sufficient to give us you know an ideal democracy speaking of of ideas sondamul raila said that i want to tell those opposed to the initiative not to change their mind let them prepare for the referendum it's coming in it's unstoppable and this is this is now what i have to say before you bring in um my friend uh when you talk about let those who are opposing the bbi to wait for the referendum i agree referendum is a yes no you know um electoral process but are you giving a robust civil participation so that people understand what bbi is or are you just you know putting people to the masses of referendum just because you want your yes to pass the development there is no public participation but i'm saying it's not robust i am saying it's not enough ram you sit here other studio you probably not attached to what is happening on the ground i'll tell you the normal mamamboga cannot interpret the bbi the normal one jika on the ground cannot understand bbi it's the bbi is probably dominating at the executive so we are saying look get to mamamboga let them understand what bbi is so that when you get to the referendum space they are able to make informed choices and they don't tell us that the bbi must pass give us the latitude that we are given in the constitution your response to what he said before i respond to that i think i want to he mentioned something about power and went ahead to say empower so that is a self contradiction in empower there is power bbi is supposed to empower people yes that is that is best on the content that is written there but who has guarantees in terms of empowerment they they are different categories of beneficiaries of bbi there is the political and there's the civilian so when you look at the political benefits they have timelines but for the for the public benefits they are the mass of parliament and the and the executive that's why most of them are legislative and policy that are best driven purely by goodwill the political goodwill so back to on the on the issue of public participation you mentioned that there is public participation i was lucky or less why is i lucky or unlucky here well it depends on the context even with my non-reservations against bbi i i attend some of these forums just to get a perspective you go to this forum so that maybe the public participation forum yes public participation the so-called public participation forum at least with the hope that you will get something that i love the time the so-called public participation forums because then it tells you that nothing happens there no he has not said thank you for captioning that no he has not said nothing i have you said nothing has happened no but he said the so-called public participation that is not a name that you give to a robust process so sorry sorry for so what happened there i want to underline that one yeah so-called okay i attended with the hope that i could see i i read the document i read the report not once not twice i go to these forums with the hope that i'll see or hear something that i have not seen in the in the in the document yeah so i got there i was given there's something the simplified one which in my opinion is almost a direct has some elements of oppositeness here this information there that is not even in the in the constitution amendment as well as in the report so i'm there seated there we are given the media pack when you read the media pack there are a lot of they focus more on battling the misconceptions and re-battles as opposed to selling the ideas in bibia my point is when you doing sensitization and i go back to what he said instead of telling people to wait at the ballot give them the information create an open forum where people can have conversations so that when you're selling something focus on the positives sell your points don't focus on handling misconceptions people are supposed to they vote based on a cost benefit analysis that's what we should focus on so what i saw at jivanti gardens was people coming together they organize organizers having a small pressure and then as the conversation was supposed to start the so-called sensitizees the people who had come to attend that forum demanded for sitting allowance because that is what has been happened this is the people who are supposed to be sensitized on bbi what told they are supposed to be paid because that's what has been happened they said how different are we so so did it take place it never took place when the organizer came and he tried to explain how he's just volunteering himself even the publication the guys walked out are you going to tell me that that's now a national conversation on such a serious issue like a constitutional amendment is that is that a fault of the person who came to sensitize the kenyan so is it of all of the kenyans who wanted a city allowance for them to be sensitized it's a fault of the proponents of bbi because you see there is a process it's like it's like when i come and i call you for for lunch and i have asked you come my brother let's have lunch and uh when you come you will you ask is there going to be kuku and then i said no kukua ita kua but this raja lafana zamana there i'm not coming if if kenyans who are supposed to be sensitized in a meeting at come to the meeting and then they say is there going to be sitting allowance so the because because the sitting allowance is is not there they don't attend that yes public participation how is the fault of the proponents of the bbi the fault of is with the proponents of bbi because of the way it was packaged and then you have an idea that has some quarters of the society opposing it but instead it's a whole meal it's a whole yeah it's a whole meal instead you want chicken specifically when if the chicken is up there you forgot the whole meal and that's why i'm telling you if you have no intentions you see it goes i let me use this example uh you take me out you've taken me out a few times and you've been eating chicken the first time the second you take someone out on a date first time second time third time the fourth time they expecting that they may still eat whatever you offer but with the reservations the problem the problem there is and the reason why i put the blame on the proponents of bbi is because of the way this thing has been choreographed the way it's been choreographed you agree with that there's a lot of there's a lot of mystery around it and then instead of coming out like i said when you're selling a product focus on the value of the product to the people the solution it offers do not focus on whatever contradictions are being provided by your competitors from this is what i think the reason why why 254 called us here i believe is because why 254 believed that we could filter information digest and add value we didn't come to repeat what others are saying on the street and so you ask yourself the question how did we get ourselves here how did we get ourselves to a point where we have to discuss bbi first of all why are we even having bbi at the point of independence i mean i mean freedom fighting and when we gained our independence the people who were given the government by that time did not understand what the freedom fighting was all about so they were watch dogs that were given the government by that time and then you quickly run to 2005 and then you realize that after the promulgation of that constitution before 2010 the people who took cover after the 205 constitution did not also understand what it was and so is 2010 post there tell us what you think you'll continue that analogy up in a car that's a strong one yeah the hashtag is why in the morning give what you thought about this as you continue this conversation on the bbi let's take a short break we'll be back in a bit no go too far it is why in the morning as always a pleasure having you we are discussing the building bridges initiative and the politics that are there it is now in the county assemblies we have 11 counties assembly county assemblies that have approved of it we need 13 more one county assembly has rejected it will we get to super Tuesday that is a question today now we post a question on our facebook page go to y254 on facebook and drop us your comment on facebook and the question is if you are a member of county assembly in account if you are a member of county assembly how would you vote in regards to bbi if you were a member of county assembly how would you vote in regards to bbi make sure that you drop in your comments as we continue with this conversation i don't know if do we run the the comments now i might but i okay let's let's take a look at what people have said on this if you are an mca would you okay these are some of the feedback there i'm seeing uh okay uh i i kukuni balesana but let me just use my phone eman james is saying welcome to kenya where our leaders only think of themselves very poor leadership greedy ones how can the mcs say no when they are eagerly waiting for the two million car grant and they will greatly regret their decision afterwards that is what eman james ansama the car grant i remember you guys will be somewhere you keep up yeah we'll talk about that yeah thomas uh hamisi aka lover boy anasama good morning vincent wambua locked in eman james anasama i'm certainly i'm certainly sure this mcs vote yes for something they don't understand just because of car grants they car grant he calls them bribes they're all assenting the document or t senge uh anasama i won't vote because the bbi has nothing to do with the environment all i see is uh about pub one ancient politics all want all all want from bbi is a rule a rule that only government environment environment okay see i'm so many na po look at the industrial waste which has cost a lot of damage in the global globally oceans lakes and rivers have now been made industrial waste storage sites imagine how many kwatik lives are dead even uh come 2030 if we will not act you will find that my many animals and plant species will no longer be there and by the way we should plant trees so that we bbi anasama bbi is bbi if it will create rule for the environment politics politics politics okay so anasama we shall focus on bbi you focus on the environment all right that is that is ot thank you very much that is quite an interesting view there ken murimi anasama morning good morning to uh no bbi until our economy comes gets better and our kenyan settle the mines due to the curse from locus and corona to care kerita u g county uh watching the show with my mum unis minor thank you very much uh uncle denis salimia uh you know your mum uh squared iano anasama iano anasama no i have not seen it i'm just seeing it being mentioned on tv yes my point exactly round a different a different and you can see people are responding to it henry mwangi anasama i would vote no because there is no money for striking doctors the issue of doctors also is uh is there chaning a man anasama so if money is given to doctors will you support the bbi now it became a tete tete henry anasama it seems we are moving in the right direction but correct currently the uh where they get money is from the bbi denis wa mukwijit anasama good morning watching from capiguria bramwell uh bouquet kedi anasama cbd following happy birthday to me all right bramwell and birthday to you thank you very much for keeping it y 254 happy birthday happy birthday happy birthday how old are you now thomas hamisi aka lmaboy anasama good morning pita kandriro kijana wa um digital yes anasama he will vote for the bbi wow so many things we cannot sample all your feedback but not about to keep commenting yeah before we went on on that break uh you are saying something yes yes yes uh so ram i was just trying to connect to how we got ourselves here why are we having bbi and i was saying that after we attained our freedom our independence the people who took the leadership mantle did not understand what freedom meant and what independence meant by that time and then we first tracked to 205 and 2010 actually the 2010 constitution when we as the people supported the 2010 constitution we looked at it as being a document that will help us you know develop a society that we all wanted an architecture of a new nation and then yet since 2010 to 2021 this document has faced the worst of time in terms of implementation then the question is are we facing a constitutional crisis or a leadership crisis are we having shortages of implementers or policies one of the things that we are very good are doing in this country is creating policies that work but one of the thing that we also very poor at is implementing those policies are we having the right figures to implement those policies so but so what we are looking at ram is not basically a constitutional crisis i am still i am still a champion of the 2010 constitution we have not implemented that constitution robustly we cannot therefore just gloss over and say that we have identified the gap when the gaps that are there are probably said to be on the executive how does that even get back to anomal monanchi you've just read on the commentary section of this show and you realize that they don't understand anything about the bbi someone said that i understand to go tv exactly so probably they even hear in this discussion this is the first time they're hearing about bbi so it's not about bbi it's about what the normal monanchi is feeling on the ground what the mamboga is lacking what the doctors are lacking the public debt that we have we are saying address that first don't use our money to rein your agenda to flag your agenda through and then we still stick with the same problem i want us to touch on other issues i don't if if you have a you know a reply to what he has said or to what the viewers have said if not then i want us to touch on something else you have a reply i think what i would like to throw in is the fact that he mentioned something we have uh we do not have a constitutional crisis but a leadership crisis and that's the same thing i always mention in 2010 we had a problem that needed a constitutional amendment and review we did that we did that the main objective was transfer power from the leadership from the executive to the people and we did that at the moment the problems we have we need now to add the word the letter e m to power power is with the people now we need to empower them and that's why we need leaders who can empower people do you believe that we don't have a constitutional problem but a leadership problem at the moment for the citizens we don't have a constitutional problem we have a leadership problem part of which we've created because just to mention something because you're moving to the next one when we talk of i always tell people when we talk of the winner take all bbi is creating more positions personally i believe the winner the solution in bbi to the winner take all is a solution for the politicians not for the kenyans so that when i lose an election and he wins there's a there's a way he will accommodate me that does not trickle down to the people because we it does and let me tell you the reason why it does is because of the handshake look at what happened that led us to harabi that led us to the to the steps of harabi house that day when we had the handshake we were at as i am i'm talking about fact say that as a country we were at a point where we were going to do to be divided chaos was looming and the handshake got peace do you still believe that a leader who is vile for any position does not have the ability to influence the members the followers or the kenyan citizens who are supporting this leader if this leader fails to achieve or to get that position don't you see that the bbi can do you see that it will solve such a problem that trickles down to the and that's why i'm telling you i go back to the point winners bbi solves the winner take all for the politicians so that and we i go back to the point he said a leadership crisis if we had leadership at the executive lab we if we had leadership at the the legislative level where we can make laws for posterity if we had leadership at i bc that people can believe in and trust we wouldn't need a handshake because we go into a election knowing that we are the processes being presided over by leaders who are going to give us verifiable results and that's why the moment people do not have faith in those systems why don't people have faith because of a leadership problem that's what has corrupted the minds of the people to the extent that you only need to induce them and they will be on the streets but if people had confidence in the systems they wouldn't go to the streets all right i want i want us to talk about something else okay but still touching on that issue aspect of leadership last week we had uh the nasa leaders we are talking about hondable moses west angula of fort kellan we are talking about hondable musela mudavadi vnc we are talking about hondable kalozomus yoka of uh waipa they said they asked hondable ryle odinga to return the favor on grounds that they have supported him in previous presidential elections then you have an entire structure that still tells you that we are creating a space where youths can dynamically rise from top to the bottom when you have the same people consistently over the years still forming alliances to get power and these guys are jokers when you have kalonzo right now and mudavadi and and and you know um wetangula coming together and saying that it's not our time ryle should also support us they want him they want ryle odinga to also endorse them just as they on endorse him it's not about is that a right move it's not a right move why do why are they reducing our political power to endorsement is it important you you you basically telling me that i can't rise without endorsements right yes it is a game of endorsement i agree but generally don't put that as the only thing that can happen so does mudavadi or kalonzo um or or you know or wetangula don't they believe in themselves setting the standard to stand alone and get the presidency and by they if you ask yourself so what are the trio bringing on the table in terms of you know their political aspiration they know that they don't have a muscle you know to get the presidency and that is why they want um you know the support of ryle odinga because if you look at wetangula what will he bring well oh well all if you look at even kalonzo what will he bring wetangula brings abakusu i mean i mean bukusu you know their voting pattern when they register 100 percent 30 percent votes kambas votes don't pass one million so whether they form alliances as the year they're still not going to get the presidency and this is and this is the the challenge that i have um let me give you time to to to respond to it should we look at votes in terms of regional blocks at the end of the day but but just to to to to clarify this yes they need they wanted they asked him to endorse uh uh yes to endorse them yes but it does but but they said actually they said that they don't require his nod to bolster their 2022 presidential it's a submission and just before you bring me let me give one of my last submission and then raila in response said that the honorable um from a prime minister says that i want endorse people i want endorse cowardice people who left me at the mercy of you know uh the integration that was supposed to happen the people's president let me quote that he said those who want to be endorsed now disappeared at the hour of need at uhuru pak i looked around only to find none of them let support bbi because 2022 is yet to come and then kalonzo says that he's a senior council that his position does not allow him to involve himself in a dramatic and constitutional process and by that time he said and we can recall he said that there was a Nigerian number that was not going through right so what kind of inconsistency do you have in the people that we look at as leaders personally i will ask you a question can you compare kukuki kenyeji naku kuya grade in agriculture in primary we used to talk about at the moment there are only two freerange there are only two freerange political chicken sasa kuna kukumbili za kenyeji the freerange and that is raila odinga and william broot have you ever seen moses wetangula outside bungoma unless he's attending a funeral somewhere have you ever seen musalia mudavadi outside the ego kakamega fathist how do you become what do you mean if you have ever seen them outside bungoma or behavior what do you mean clarify that you see to become the president they are 47 counties they are 1000 1400 and something words to become the president you must have the the power and the energy and the motivation and the drive in you to go to every corner of this country you cannot spend the past 15 years roaming around one county and expect someone to endorse you that cannot happen and that's why when you see raila odinga standing up and saying he cannot endorse anyone raila odinga is among the few let me say at among the existing political class that are aspiring for the president there are that have the caliber of the president of a presidential candidate he's the guy who's walked around this country more than anyone else the only other person who comes next to him is william root the rest of the other guys can only play second fiddle to to the two and to go back to point something that he said i know he's renewed it then comprise comparison no you see those the broilas they have a small confinement where they can even if you open the door they'll never leave that they'll never leave that room where they have been conditioned to live so that's what i'm talking about kalonzo has been confined has confined himself to kamban wetangola has confined himself to bungama mudabadi has confined himself to malulu every day you see on on on facebook meeting elders in malulu meeting every day that's what you see so when you have such people they are not like the the kiyanji chicken that is just waiting for dawn for it to step on so honda buluto is not confined and honda buraila is also not confined they are not confined and that's why most of them spend more time outside their strongholds before he jumps in there is something i wanted to point out you see we've gotten to a point where these guys uh let's say they are collisions amongst them and that's why i say it's the opportunity for the young people to step up whenever you see leadership gaps are being created we have a failed legislature what are we doing as young people to fill up those gaps or are we just sitting back and waiting we are vying for political ships so and that's why as young people we need to step up now with all this confusion with all these scandals it's far much easier to sell yourself as an alternative now you don't know you have yourself campaign after me yes some of these people that some of these people that you talking about tram the kalonzo group they began they joined the government when they were youths but apparently right now they are they are preoccupying that space to a point that if you are youth you wouldn't even think about the national leadership this is a kukun of jokas do you know that when kalonzo sees to be the vice president he didn't know how much it costed to drive come on from to drive look how much it costed to drive from Nairobi to mombasa you know you're talking about a national i know he thought it was 20 000 because the man has been cruising on public expense and takes things for granted you're talking about a national leader i know who has been uh uh who has held offices in government in for for years it doesn't matter why would you refer to them as a job it doesn't matter i mean it doesn't matter so have we seen development in that aspect what kind of a leader have you been very inconsistent from youth from your conversation from your talking acquiring the votes is getting it's not about the voting and you just said right in this show that it's about you know you know you know the voting patterns but you said the regional votes you said right in this show that it's about the people he is saying that for you to even get an overwhelming vote you don't need to constrain yourself to a given environment you move to be you need to be a moving object so are we looking at a moving object and by the way it's not even about voting it's about national development have these people steered development for over the years that they have been in the government so we are looking at a more critical issue than just forming alliances of old people in the government and i think that brings me to my question these people have been in power for all those years the first question we need to ask how did they get into those positions most of them and let me try to answer myself most of them entered those government positions through tokenistic means most of them are handpicked individuals into those positions most of these people these are people if you are to ask today what did you do to warrant that position what would you tell kenyans is what you've done to warrant the position you're looking for people without a history you are based on the history of the nation some of these people that you are talking about that you mentioned they are handpicked some of them have gone through have been detained have fought and struggled to get the country this particular constitution that you are trying to change nelson mandela nelson mandela yes strived for his country throughout the apathy regime and they attained independence as south africa went for presidency for five years and then retired what makes these jokers not think about retiring of the politics because nelson mandela believed in an environment where other leaders could rise and you know and take their place and speak to the occasion so when you are probably giving examples i want you to compare and contrast don't just be one sided just because we had somebody detained in kenya we also had somebody detained in south africa we're in the same continent but they've given leadership space to other young rising stars to showcase their skills we have youths in parliament on the we have the keja young parliamentarians we have people who in fact we have people like honorable johnson sakaja who is the chair on the contrary for me i think i would like to take deviation from what he said about these old men okay the old men i was specific we have a majority of people who are running around today who's who benefited from the tokenism in the government who've ascended to positions without any special warrant for the so my deviation personally i believe it does not matter whether someone is a hundred years or his 20 years as long as he can lead i'll always give an opportunity to that person to lead so and that's the problem we have today the main reason why the young leaders elected leaders like the one you mentioned sakaja cannot inspire people is because they did not become leaders on their own terms they did not ascend to those positions in their own way and i go back to what i say tokenism and that's why we have people who are as brilliant as sakaja who are confined i wouldn't i wouldn't want to assume that sakaja didn't you know get himself leadership we are on a national television i wouldn't want to touch on that but basically what i would want to be specific about when he talks about you know i don't mind and these are his words whether you will 90 or 100 i will still support you if you can lead is that the other aspect of leaders is when they are able to create opportunities for other people so i think there is something i had not finished before i was interrupted what i wanted to say is that and i think you missed the point because you interrupted me what i wanted to say is that the reason why i mentioned for example sakaja he's not here to because you mentioned him is i mentioned it because he is a young he's a young parliamentarian and my point was most of these young parliamentarians have good intentions and good ideas but they are confined in our political structures the parties cannot allow them to do some of those things the political leaders cannot allow them to do some of those things and that's why i said they did not become leaders under their own terms because as a as as a leader you should be in a position to at least do something that you believe in irrespective of your your affiliation um i i believe you're aware that we we have this um this this this mok parliament i don't know if you've seen it a mok parliament for the youth mok is there and see youth league spokesperson natanil mongari akadima is there and he is the speaker of this parliament where we have youths who can have parliamentary sessions discuss issues of national value and come into conclusions on these issues and it's taking place led by the kenya yang parliamentarians what do you mean when you say that they are not inspiring you let me ask you a question let me ask you a question i was one of the greatest renters online i used to complain about the government how the government is not doing well but then one day i called myself into a meeting and asked myself how much does that granting how much value does it bring i want to come back to your question you can have those assemblies have conversations and everything but as long as it cannot be converted into an actionable policy that can be implemented it's nothing inspiration goes beyond just talking inspiration goes beyond it's about stepping out of your comfort zone out of your cocoon to go to the ground and demonstrate and implement things and that is the problem we have today inspiration is about distruing the barriers okay and getting out there let's let's talk about barriers then yeah on friday yes let me touch on something you'll also realize that the young people we have in the parliament cannot basically be useful to the implementation of new ideas because they used party vehicles to get into the parliament i wouldn't even say that there parties in kenya we don't have parties we have i'll call them fictional constructs that are not based on policies that are not based on ideologies and then they find themselves in those fisco army i mean fictional constructs and then you want them to deliver in parliament they can deliver these parties do not have ideologies they don't have philosophies you've opened panoras box there no party in kenya is actually one that you recognize yes did you notice in 2017 did you notice in 2017 we had a huge number of young people and actually people at large going for independent candidature speaking of parties last week it was on friday jubilee party secretary general rafael tuju asked nominare mca's from wasengishu county to approve of this bill uh uh or face punishment so you see it means that they're constrained to perform that you cannot think independently ram this is the perception this is the perception we have the a stand of a political party i i i know you are running uh for for for your parliamentary seat under political party yes uh which party is that at the moment i'm a member of idep i okay idep it's called the id idep idep okay so under idep or any party whatsoever yeah there is the stand of the party yes we should be the stand of the members of the party yeah so if the stand of jubilee party is to support bbi and a member of that party does not support the bbi isn't this the right statement that can come out of a secretary general of that particular party and i think that's what that's why i need to point out this and that's where we when we talk of bbi where did it start from it was never the position of the parties it was the position of two individuals who are the leaders of two political parties who are the leaders of two political parties who think they are bigger than the political parties so any decision they make is binding on the membership i agree with you that in any civilized practicing democracy members must be whipped around party ideologies but if the parties do not have ideologies what binds the members jubilee party as ideologies which ideologies what does it stand for it's what can you see this is the one thing that you believe right it's written on paper um it's basically a document that even remember jubilee is right now at the ruling political party i mean coalition probably they have ideologies and their philosophies as you say probably why are we not seeing that because a party is yes it is but it is a rhetorical question you don't need to answer it why are we seeing that because as a party you need to be aligned to democracy and democracy moves all of us towards the ideal so implement the ideal whether at party level or at the national level and especially when you are in a ruling party democracy democracy is supposed to democracy to kenyans is about many political parties but in real sense democracy is about having functional structures and parties so that decisions are structured someone doesn't just wake up and make a decision on a party i agree party loyalty is not negotiable but that loyalty should be should be centered around ideas and with functional structures so when you have a party that does not have structures then it's very difficult for that loyalty to be whipped and especially parties operating under democracy you are hitting you you you you eating something here when when you say that party members should fall in line with the party position when you buy for political seat under certain party you will buy for political seat another party based on the ideologies that party has jubilee has a manifesto when they were talking when they were campaigning there was a manifesto there were ideologies of jubilee and these are the ideologies that still stand till date it is also on paper when a member of county assembly is whipped into doing what the party wants how does that afflict his democratic rights yet he is confined under the same same house of jubilee it is like saying if you're if you're married you're married to your wife saying that you are not allowed to go out with other women then is against your democratic rights as a human being yet you have a constitution of marriage to your wife make me understand let me come in i think it's never happened in the history of democracy world over i don't have monopoly of such knowledge but i've never seen anywhere with where are leading a ruling political party with a near absolute majority in parliament goes into an alliance with the opposition a political party it only happens when the the the ruling party does not have and that's what happened that's where those are the coalitions we seen in europe in france you don't you don't see like the peace of the country now i'm coming back i'm coming back to your point personally i believe the peace the peace that we talk about is just a creation of the mind kenyans are very peaceful unless they are incited by someone under their own accord kenyans will live peaceful with each other i come back to the married to the the woman you talked about the man who who needs who feels that his rights are infringed by going out with other women we have a husband who is married happily he has his family he has even where he come from there are those people who even take other people's dead wives when someone dies you can take someone else you can inherit the issue of inheritance so you see jubilee has a party with their party leader president kenyata have a very strong party with a near absolute majority that can pass any low then he has inherited another wife like in the form of kanu you see those the pd uda was here pdp something like that before and the first wife has allowed you to do that and then you step up and go the take the labor's wife without consulting you your first wife that's the issue that is happening so those are the disgruntlements that are in jubilee a case of someone who has a functional a system that is supposed to be very functional and that's why i tell you when you talk of development and all that stuff with an absolute majority in parliament nothing stopped the jubilee government from implementing whatever project they're implementing in kisumu i don't think the people in kisumu would have demonstrated to stop the jubilee government from doing what it's doing after the handshake i think i think we are having a very serious discussion and right now we probably have thousands of audiences that are watching what we are saying i wouldn't want to fix myself into his thoughts when it comes to what it means the government coming together with the opposition we must all of us agree that we had a situation we had a very critical situation in 2017 and the government agreeing to come together with the opposition party and shake hands you know was a very big step towards the peace of this country and so can we now achieve devolution because then we can see the president going around the country and inspecting projects peace is fundamental to any country's development this one i must see so and so whether i don't care whether we are going to have 10 parties shaking hands or whether the government is going to shake hands with you know the opposition but that doesn't then limit the opposition to implement its mandate as provided by the constitution we still need the opposition to be strong and legislate and talk about matters that the i mean put the government let me ask you two questions let me ask you two questions the first one what is the purpose of democracy if we can't have a functional and dependable electoral system what is the purpose of democracy going to an election if we are going to an election only for all these people to coalesce and come together so that they talk the same tune the second question all right how can how can the opposition oversight the government in which it has its own appointments appointed people operating you believe for an election to be an election people have to disagree an election is about disagree agreeing to disagree and that's why we agree to disagree you will why am i saying that because when you go to the ballot there are two people we agree to disagree that you have a right to vote for whomever and both of us must and that's why i usually say politics any competition is a zero sum game to the competitors you cannot go i cannot win a football match and expect us to share points no what we need is a system that guarantees a fair result for both of us let me ask you there is this joke that was going around back then when they were saying um arrived it's not arrived without tiagas do you believe that rum i don't believe rum rum let me consistently speak that if ken is a young leader leader that you're going to expect to take on you know the member the becoming member of parliament with the same ideologies then this country is not progressive it is retrogressive let me interact why do you wait let me let me let me let me i cannot allow why i gave you time i gave you time let me ask you why do you say i gave you time i gave you time for your submissions so i'm asking you i'm asking you yes why do you say that the country is not progressive because yet he has he is a youth who has come up reason up to speak his mind i agree and i know so many you see let me let me request for something can i please request for something because there's a point i had not finished he interrupts me that's why he never gets my points he never gets and that's he's jumping in because i've not finished what i was saying when i said a competition is a zero sum game we are competing both of us must agree that i will win or you will win but whoever wins among us must accept whoever whoever wins must be ready to serve even the losers and that's what happened what happened that they don't accept so the point is we need to have systems that guarantee fairness in the result and then the problem that we have in kenya and that's why i talk of zero sum games among the competitors the citizens are not competing so the citizens should never suffer and that's why if you had listened you would have gotten this point it's us who we are competing the citizens have the right to agree whomever to vote for and it should not change our relationship just because we have different opinions the problem we have in kenya is that once we agree and we fight it's like we take the fight to the people who should not participate because they don't even know the motivation behind our our contesting for those positions so the problem that we have in kenya is that people who win or lose and then they it's like they take that anger to the people such that i was competing with you so i'll not serve your people you see and that's where my generalization comes in and that's where you see in this country there is that problem is development development goes to the people who are government friendly those are the issues who've been having so when i talk of zero sum when i talk of winner take all it's not about the people it's about the competitors we as the competitors must agree that one will win another one will lose but whatever the result the people must not feel the wrath or the difference in our win or lose and so at that point it's about principle these are principles the issue of you winning and then you start complaining that's what i'm trying to this is the tokenism that is being promoted in bbi people must accept so but before they accept we only need a system that guarantees the people their safety the progress the empowerment and development irregardless of who they vote for or who they don't now i don't know why ken is getting worked up we're just looking at really this discussion objectively and this is what i'm saying no you are i i don't i i don't have a problem with ken becoming whatever he wants to become but i have a problem with the ideologist that he's going to sell in that leadership position with regards to democracy they are what we call principles of democracy democracy allows people to rise to the occasion and compete and it's called we think about a win win situation and when you talk about two people competing democracy is not about two people democracy is all about people who have presented themselves on stage what if we have two people on the ballot no i'm just asking i don't need your questions so let me answer first what being into perspective the realities of politics that's for ken for ken to tell us on a national television that the winner wins and then the loser he does accept and that it doesn't care whether it is conflict i think that is contradictory when he actually says that he's a champion of 2010 constitution because 2010 constitution has its demand when it comes to how do you accept when you know the winner and it has those regulations and when you talk about the people yes people as you know the political context in this country that people are affiliated to party godfathers can't that change i didn't say that it can't change i believe it can change can you just stop asking me questions and let me respond uh i'll come back to you i'll come back to you can clarify yeah yeah so i'm basically tending to clarify the tendency of youths developing dogmatic approaches towards you know very critical government and even leadership issues ken i want you to straight away rethink the 2010 constitution and rethink democracy and not the principles of democracy that while loss is acceptable peace must prevail and whereas peace doesn't prevail then we must find other interventions on how peace can prevail so if that means that we go into a handshake with an opposition for the peace to prevail so if you talk about the people do people do the people want peace yes they do want peace and that's why they live in peace to a point where to a point where we can look for that peace we are allowed to stretch to that point now let me come now uh time to now let me give the first thing i think i want to express my disappointment in here is a session that just my batch of kenyans being attached to their political affiliations political gods they can't change that's very wrong that's very the meaning to the kenyan people just because they are doing this now does not mean they can't change the second thing i want to insist political contests among us the politicians should not affect the relationships of the people and that's why we as the politicians and that is the basic principle of democracy the majority have their way the minority have their say by saying that it simply means when we go into a competition a political competition does not have a draw among us the competitors but what we should do as leaders which i am at the moment and when i speak this i speak with authority as a leader we should never allow our political contests to affect the people you as a person must be ready as i'm ready as a person even as i'm doing this i'm telling people leadership does not require it's not a must for me to have a position for me to be a leader i can still influence as long as i stay my question ken is when you say that you believe that for an election to be an election there has to be disagreements uh exactly how then do you do you um in the same breath say that uh where there is democracy yes uh disagreements with that democracy can be established before he just takes on that and that is the entire thing that i don't understand about ken because he has a lot of contorted information that cannot connect up when you truly say that there must be a disagreement after an election and then you are champion of democracy we really can't connect the kind of a leader that you are trying to make but now to you to you meshak i still wonder i'll ask a question with you when you say within the same breath yes that the leaders that you expect to take the mantle from you call them jokas how do you expect the uh those who take the mantle from you to also see you because you do not um give honor to those who have come before you but then how do you expect those who will come after you to give honor to you but then as a host i'll send you back and ask you what is the meaning of a joker and then when you find the meaning you literally align it to the people that i'm talking about so that when i call somebody a joker i'm not just calling it from a point of you know uh thinking that they are it's because of what we've seen them do in the past and that they have existed in this government probably since time immemorial and we can see development there's a national leaders you see whether they are national leaders or whether they are international leaders you see the human being we must tell them the reality so i can answer my hold an office in the um no problem whether they whether they hold an office in heaven we must just let them know what they need to know i'm so passionate about leadership that you can't be attached me from the realities of leadership you see we don't live we don't lead in vacuums we must be realists and i go back to my point democracy is about the majority having their way and the minority having their say for that to function we need to focus on creating systems that guarantee the rights and safeties of both parties why did i say there must be disagreements in political contestations by virtue of two of us stepping on that stage to contest for a position and having people supporting candidate a and others supporting candidate b that is the level of disagreement that i'm talking about you you are taking you are boiling you are boiling my statements to a point where you think disagreements are war no disagreements are ideological and that's why as a person i'm pushing for ideological politicking you see we one of the biggest problems that we have as a country and maybe as a continent is that we we borrowed a culture we imported a culture a culture was imposed on us and i always tell people we you can create the physical infrastructure to implement something that's very easy you can go to china and borrow money and build schools all that stuff but you cannot buy what i call the intellectual infrastructure to facilitate the implementation of the culture that we have borrowed so what we have is a culture where people believe things must be done this way and there's no alternative and that's why we're coming forward to create an alternative so when we say it's a contestation it's not a contestation of guns and all it's a contestation of ideas it's about for example me i personally say i appreciate what the others have done within their comfortable capacities because no man can operate beyond his capacity but it's a moment for us to move into the next phase where we can focus on ideas ram and that's why i need to insist before he comes in please don't misquote me when i talk of when i talk of disagreements it's about you in your own family your wife deciding he will support ram and your first born son saying he will support me those are what i'm talking about and those things should never spill beyond the election day once we go to the ballot vote whomever you want vote for kennedy vote for ram once we live there we go sit at home wait for the result knowing that if kennedy loses he will go shake ram's hand and ram will ask kennedy you had a very good idea can we work together you are aware that and that's not it is it is because of that because earlier on you disputed the handshake now you also interrupted me and that's why i'm saying that's not you see the handshake we have today is a forced circumstantial agreement it's forced it's circumstantial you see first due to the fact that we were at the brink and there was no alternative ram at that point i feel so circumstantial because we there there are things we've we assume a lot of things as kenyans there's a way we intentionally worked there so when i was taking about us it's about we even knowing even before the election that we have it's also your right i have a right to win but i also have a right to lose it's about simple things so that we don't we are not forced into a handshake and that's why we are here with the bbi yeah ram in my departing submissions on this very topic i want to be very critical interest to why we are here and why are we even having this conversation about you know handshake um we had a lot in 2017 baby pendo lost her life we had people who were butchered and tortured due to an election outcome and so when somebody rampages the fact that there was a handshake between the opposition and the government it it's it's it's so it's so it's not pleasing my heart it's not pleasing because for me like i said earlier and i just want to be very consistent in my words that it doesn't matter whether 10 political parties shake hands as long as we acquire peace that is the biggest point and when he talks about disagreement i don't i'm not talking about guns and shooting and and and people rioting around i i to an extend by a gun wait to an extend wait to an extend i agree when you say the sediment in terms of ideology yes but i just want you to understand that so can you withdraw the your earlier stages i'm not withdrawing so the reason why the reason why i have to be on your neck is when you say that the handshake was choreographed was circumstantial when we had a baby's life lost when we had people who were butchered when we actually had an election that was bungled so are you saying that an election was bungled for us to have handshake so lastly in my submissions this is what i have to say that when we have a rising political figures who want to get into the political ground like ken the the conscious must be right they must have a very good ideology and they must understand what democracy is otherwise even in the implementation of bbi if we don't understand the nuggets of democracy then we shouldn't even be here discussing this thing first of all so i think my closing comment on that will be my friend my friend don't don't give me the burden please don't give me the burden i am sending you to love this lady let me let me let me tell you something please don't give me the burden of having to interpret kumon English i said circumstantial circumstantial because there were circumstances that led to the handshake i agree handshake was not an issue of o it wasn't peaceful it was a kohas sort of thing that's why you see and then that is another statement that is very wrong kohas let me see what do you mean by being you know kohasha in itself what is the meaning of kohasha now let me how do you say something how do you say that something that is creating a peaceful atmosphere was kohas can you allow me to explain i want us to to wrap this conversation let me i want us to wrap this conversation and you see uh please i just don't understand the patient when he says that it was kohas okay be patient when i'm explaining and that's why it's very difficult for you to understand okay i'm because you never give me time i'm patient why was it kohas try loadinga himself the right honorebo said they sat in a room with uhuru kenyat for i don't know 30 minutes not talking no no no i'll let you finish another thing i want to tell you it's it's if you are not aware then it's known that they were emissaries where people there were people being sent to railo dinga and then this inform they were those behind the scenes conversations and when i talk of kohasha kohasha is not about being held at gunpoint kohasha is about railo dinga head opposition as the right honorebo prime minister former and the people's president there were issues of cessation they head opposition odm head opposition that they were never ready to see so when i talk of kohasha kohasha is not about being hammered with a hammer and that's where you get me wrong you are very extreme in your interpretation of my my statements kohasha is about you have a position they are peaceful way you see the way you are seduced seduction is also kohasha you are peacefully kohas into into vacating your original position there is there is adopting something there is no way you can put a negative word to be positive no wherever it exists whenever wherever you use it so kohasha is a political exactly and because i want him as a leader to understand the language have you ever seen how lawyers interpret every word you see kohasha as a negative thing no in his context of argument it is how do you put that in the same statement with the handshake i i i want us to drop this conversation how do you do that why do you do that it has been a pleasure uh but what you're saying um final word you feel are we going to see super tuesday getting that 24 number it afanika i mean they are going to get the 24 numbers but for me it's not a super tuesday they are going to get it i have no doubt about that thank you madam that is meshakotiyano ceo of awake youth initiative and kennedy odwayo as a political astrologist governance and youth development expert gentlemen it has been a pleasure and these are conversations that need to you know that youth as youths we need to have can i extend some bad manners no no no no bad manners no which bad manners no i just wanted to say i would have something some advice i would like now that i'm on national television and there are a lot of youths watching i would like to advise young people that the time for for us to get into these leadership spaces and political spaces is now we may have we may have our heated arguments but at the end of the we are on the same page the most important thing is for us to also be on the table once you are on the table as a stakeholder and all you need as a young person is your brain you have the vision and everything you have the advantage of time nobody will ever come to you in your in your bedroom to take you to a leadership table we have to step out ensure ourselves and support each other because very true they say leadership is not given it's taken another statement another statement that's not democratic that's because to the end of this conversation right here online the one that's been a pleasure having you uh today my name is Ram Maguko may god bless you and may god bless the work of your hands have a fantastic day why in the morning continues again tomorrow keep it why 254 keep it why in the morning good to your fair