 All right. Hey folks, welcome to day three of the CoreOS face-to-face. This session is about growing through our CoreOS community. Couple of ground rules off the top. It is a face-to-face, so if you are feeling, if you feel comfortable, please keep your video on so we can see your beautiful faces. Please use the raise hand functionality to queue up when you want to respond. And since there's a lot of new faces here from Red Hat and other parts of the world, a short introduction, if you haven't talked before, would be useful. With that, I'm going to pass it off to Dusty and Jason Brooks. Cool. I'll start with a short introduction, and then I'll pass it off to Jason, and then we can kind of dig in. So I'm Dusty Mabe. I like to consider myself very involved in the Fedora CoreOS community, and also in the Project Gatama community before we kind of brought everybody together for CoreOS stuff. I'm very interested in building community. I'm very interested in us, you know, having more involvement than just Red Hat. I think that's part of what makes an open source project healthy. So that's more or less it. So this is a topic that I'm passionate about. I'll hand it off to Jason Brooks. Hey, I'm Jason Brooks. I work in Red Hat's open source program office, and I was involved in Project Atomic before. So I developed love for RPMOS tree and run silver, blue on my laptop and everything. But yeah, we work with different projects that Red Hat's invested in and to help them be successful. And so that's my interest here is to help the Fedora CoreOS be successful. Gotcha. Thanks, Jason. So we have two options here. I've got this HackMD and we've got a few, I've got just a few notes that I've written down in it. One thing we can do is I can kind of run through each point and give an overview, and then we can kind of come back and talk about them or I can go through each one and open it up for input on each one. And then also under each section, we can have people say, hey, oh, by the way, maybe this one could also be added to this section. So does anybody have a preference on how, which of those two options we go with here? Maybe one at a time? Okay, one at a time goes. So what I will do, I'll try to periodically monitor to see if there are any raised hands, but I'll just run through them and we'll go from there. So the first thing that I put in this HackMD was the term execution. And this is more or less kind of doing what we've already been doing, but just making sure that we keep a nod to quality. So for example, anytime that we have an issue that pops up where people have to manually go do something to their system, it's an opportunity for them to reevaluate and say, oh, maybe I should try something else. So one of the things that we can do is keep the community that we already have, the users that we already have by keeping them happy. So I think, obviously, this is about growing the Fedora Core OS community. But if we keep our existing users happy, then they'll talk to other people and bring more people into the fold. I feel like word of mouth is definitely one of those things that is undervalued sometimes because, you know, putting things out on Twitter is pretty cheap. And also there's high noise, you know, levels there. So not always as value as having somebody say, yeah, I've been using this for two years and it's been rock solid. So just executing there, keeping our nod for quality, all of the efforts for CI that we've been doing, you know, just have improved this so much. So, you know, that that's the first point. I think it's kind of for common sense, but I don't think it's worth or I think it's very much worth stating. The second point I have there is availability of more cloud providers. So obviously, if we're available anywhere a user wants to use us, that will help us, you know, attract more people. So I think that one's fairly common sense. I don't see any raised hands right now. So I'll just continue to run through this. The next one I have is freely available information and resources. One thing that we're not doing right now that we've said we want to do, just haven't quite gotten around to it is kind of having release notes for each of our releases that goes out. I think that will be very valuable once we get to a point where we're doing that just because, you know, how nice is it to go to a page with a nice overview and say, oh, this is exactly when SystemD got bumped and have these new features in it or something like that, right? Or, you know, if you happen to be a user and you are using it in a way that nobody else is somehow, you know, maybe you're changing your U limit or something like that. I don't know. You can kind of go in and see, oh, in this particular release, this change happened and it might have been, you know, what the side effect that I'm seeing might be part of that change. So having release notes, you know, a little more thought out and written for each release, I think will be really helpful. And then also more comprehensive documentation. I think that goes without saying a little bit is, you know, if a user starts with Fedora Core OS and there's a particular thing that they're trying to do and we have some documentation for it, it will just help keep them in our fold rather than letting them go somewhere else that has better documentation. So I think those two sections are kind of like obvious things that we can do to just help make us more well-rounded in general. Matt, let's see. Okay, I'm not monitoring the chat. Just let me know if anything pops up in there that I need to, we need to talk about. Okay, the next section that I have is called outreach. So this is something where we're, I don't think we're quite, you know, doing as much as we can right now. So community event coordination. One thing that we do is we submit talks and stuff to conferences where we know other Red Hatters are going to be typically and, you know, that we typically go to. So DevConf, Red Hat Summit, what are the other ones, Flock, things like that. But we're not as good at submitting talks to other conferences where there aren't as many Red Hatters. And I think this can be kind of, you know, we're staying in our echo chamber a little bit, right, and not kind of reaching out to new people as much. So, you know, fringe conferences, you know, meetups in local, you know, areas where you are, those are opportunities for us to kind of reach out to people who might not know about us. And, you know, that represents an opportunity to me. Let's see. Yeah. And then also, you know, let's not forget about our regular conferences as well. We don't want to just go to those other places. We want to be everywhere pretty much. But we don't have infinite resources either. So we do need to be strategic. But like I said, I do think trying to reach out and be in places where we haven't been before is an opportunity for us. The next bullet point I have is kind of working with more upstream projects that want to build on top of Fedora CoroS. So like Fedora CoroS provides a really nice base, right? And if other projects build on top of us, then we build our community. So it actually is quite nice from, you know, if you kind of almost look at it like from an appliance perspective, right? Fedora CoroS is the base. Then another project picks it up and builds on top of that. They provide the application. And then it's delivered as an appliance to, you know, users in the community. This is kind of what OKD is doing. OKD is picking up Fedora CoroS and building on top of it, adding a little sugar, and then it's OpenShift essentially. So the one other project that I know of that has picked us up and is using us is Typhoon, which is an upstream Kubernetes project slash distribution. So like have others tried to do this and had trouble? Are there ways in which we can actually promote Fedora CoroS being used in this context? So that is kind of one of those things where, you know, if Fedora CoroS is chosen as the base and the app is a killer app, then, you know, we benefit if they choose us, right? It's almost like partnering in, you know, in the business side of things. So that's one thing. Oh, Clamont, yes. Let me see what Clamont has to say. It's more like a thought than what you were talking. So I think I generally agree with going to more conferences where it's not really related to our comfort zone, maybe. But I often find difficult to, like what type of messaging we should give. And I think a nice point is probably what you just said after Fedora as a base. And maybe we go, I don't know, to WordPress conferences or, you know, like very specific application. And we can talk about, like, yeah, you know, we're doing this great OS that is rock solid. And maybe that's could be valuable into your community or your project or something like that. So maybe something to explore there. Yeah, exactly. If we wanted to target specific app platforms or something like that, you know, I think that would have a lot of value. I think there was a recent article on Fedora magazine about, you know, how you run, how you run, like a particular software stack, like if you want to run your matrix.org server, you know, matrix server on Fedora Core OS, here's how to do it, right. And just taking that, making it a conference talk and presenting it at, you know, a conference that's targeted more towards decentralized communication platforms, right, would be an example of something that we could do. And like what you said, actually reaching out specifically and talking to that target audience, rather than just kind of saying, here's what Fedora Core OS is at a conference where people, you know, speaking more to the audience, rather than just blasting it out there and not having a targeted approach. Both of them can work, right. One probably is a little more effective than the other. Okay, Jason. Yeah, you know, on the messaging point about knowing what messaging, you know, to give when you're giving a talk, we could produce like a sample deck that we keep up to date that, you know, if any community member wants to speak about it at a group of any size, that could kind of give them a starting off point. That's something that the project could maintain to make that easier. Yep, exactly. I think Clamont and Timothy, I don't know if you guys already did your talk with OpenShift TV or not. But yeah, when they started putting that together, I had a slide deck that I had prepared for some talks. And guess what? I started my slide deck based on one that Ben Breard had, you know, given a while back. And you basically just start with something and then mold it into what you need it to be for that particular talk. But yeah, if having somewhere where these resources are kind of collected together, the source as well as like maybe a final version, like a PDF version of it, basically allows people to kind of go through and pick and choose pieces of these previous works. I completely agree with you. You know, from an internal Red Hat perspective, the real easy way to share is just put it in a Google Drive. From a community perspective, we might just want to like, you know, make a repo or something and put them all in there. So I think that's a good idea, Jason, to kind of pull these presentation resources together. Okay, I don't see any hands raised. So I will continue. Okay, the next topic heading that I have is staying in the conversation, staying relevant. So, you know, obviously doing more articles about Fedora CoreOS in Fedora Magazine, opensource.com. They always love you to submit articles there. And I think that's a good place for us to kind of, you know, broaden our horizon a little bit. But, you know, just in general, if you want to do it on your own blog, you know, blog platform anywhere, right? Just adding more information and kind of putting it out there will help, you know, pull in more people that'll see it. Every once in a while, stuff that I write gets aggregated into like a technology short take from some people. And then a lot of people read those newsletters, right? So it, all of this helps. I guess we can have a conversation in a minute about what's more strategic, right? Which pieces are there? I just kind of made a list of things that aren't necessarily ordered in priority. The next thing I had under there is podcasts. I've gone on the Linux unplug podcast a few times to talk about Fedora CoroS and Project Atomic a while back, having more representation there or any other podcasts. I feel like podcasts are pretty popular these days and that people are starting them all the time. So there's probably, they're always looking for people to talk. So if you're willing to talk, I'm sure we can get you on a podcast. And then obviously doing more stuff on social. So we do have a Twitter profile. I've pretty much just been running that. But obviously, we can do a lot better there. And actually do some sort of engagement. So when people like ask questions on Twitter, we can try to make sure we point them in the right direction. It's not necessarily support, right? I'm not going to try to figure out why something's broken for you. But what we can say is, oh, hey, can you ask this question over here where you might get more, you know, more people are looking for, you know, to help you answer these types of questions. So those, those are opportunities for us. And then just as grabbing at strings a little bit, I have a topic called indirect progress. So this is like, oh, yep, sorry, we'll have a stand. Mike raise a hand at some point if you want to. Oh, who did? Take a break. Mike, if you want to speak up. Go ahead. Yeah, what's about the podcast stuff. But we're so far along now. It's okay. We could come back to it maybe at some other point. No worries. Yeah, I'll just finish this and then we'll come right back to it, Mike. Okay. Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't see your hand raised. I'm bad. I'm over here looking at the, the HackMD that's open. Yeah, you don't have to explain. I totally understand. Okay, cool. So yeah, this one's quick. Basically, I put it under indirect progress, but more or less, you know, periodically we have people come to us and they're like, hey, I want to run, you know, this obscure application on top of Fedora Core OS, but there's no container for it, right? And, you know, there's only so much we can do there, but just in general, trying to identify patterns of applications that are hard to containerize and help bring them into the containerized fold. It's pretty much what Red Hat's been trying to do for the last, you know, six years or so is to help get containerized the world. But I wanted to put that in here just because the more things that can run easily in a containerized environment, the more it helps our platform. Like if an application isn't containerized, then we don't necessarily want people running that on Fedora Core OS. It kind of goes against our model a little bit of, you know, we kind of have the OS and then you run your applications in containers. So that's kind of an indirect way to promote Fedora Core OS is to, you know, make sure things can run in containers. Okay, I'm going to go with the raised hands and then we'll get back to the podcast. So Colin. Yeah, just on the container type. I feel like one thing we need to, like, improve in the third community is it's very RPM centric, you know, like when you want to join Fedora, that's packaging and RPM. And actually the only way to build a container now is through a rather crazy process of building an RPM and building a module and then building a container out of that. And I just don't want to do that. But it's very hard, you know, like it's very hard, but like I hope I hope we can go more in that direction in the future. Yeah, that one's definitely interesting. Yes, that one's interesting. And like you said, it is hard as well. I think that's worth it's own like hour long meeting probably. Does anybody else want to jump in on that before we go to the next raised hand? Looks like Timothy actually wants to jump in on that. And he's also next raised hand. So yeah, let's do that. So yeah, when I wrote the Fedora magazine article with Clément about Matrix on F cross, we ran into this issue, because we tried to use Fedora provided images and that did not work well. They're not up to date. They didn't have the software we needed. And so yeah. So I'm planning on trying to move that forward from the federal side, but having trusted images that we can use outside of the dog hub and I would say not so greatly maintained and packaged images in the dog hub, even from official projects, that would be really important for Fedora. So that's definitely a topic. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I agree with you on that. Like part of the problem is also like, you know, existing maintainers of RPMs in Fedora already have a lot of work. And like when you ask them to also maintain a container, it kind of compounds on that, especially if they weren't planning to use that, right? So like more or less, we have two possible problems. One is the need for the applications is being provided somewhere else. So people are already getting these containers from somewhere else, maybe they're building them themselves, or maybe they're pulling them from somewhere else that they should or should not, right? Maybe they're pulling them all from Docker Hub and they might maybe shouldn't, or maybe they're building them themselves or finding some other trusted place. But or the other alternative is that, you know, like you said, we have to build them out of RPMs. If the RPMs already exist, no big deal, right? Especially if you want to use the container. But if they don't, then you have to do an RP, you know, maintain the RPM and the container. So it like compounds the maintainer story. And I don't I feel like we haven't had success so far because we haven't found the right combination of this person wants to maintain the RPM and the container, or this person wants to maintain the RPM and this other person wants to maintain the container. It starts to get to a point where it's a little more unsustainable to to rely on a community for that, unfortunately. So, yeah, it's a problem. And, you know, maybe maybe we identify another repository of trusted containers that we can point to as the Fedora community, right? So we there is UBI, right? But I don't know if there are any particular containers that are built on top of UBI, that are the applications, right, that we could point to. Timothy shaking his head. I'm interested. And Christian also has his hand up. So yeah, I actually wanted to jump in right here as well. I think having having containers, or yeah, in Fedora in general, I think containers aren't really big enough, at least we don't produce them ourselves enough. And it's I think that's also a process problem because maintaining a container, an official Fedora container, actually is the same process as maintaining an RPM. You have to be an RPM Packager. It's not like you can just decide as a community member who isn't a Packager, you know, I want to package up a container and publish that as an official Fedora container. Because there is no separate process, you have to go through that RPM Packager process first. So maybe that's maybe that can be, you know, simplified the process. And also, I wanted to note here that there's a few OKD people here. And we kind of run into a similar problem there where we want to publish community operators. There isn't really obviously we have the Fedora core, the base image, but then yeah, there's virtually no resources other than that, that you can really use. And also there's no clear path of how to publish those containers. I think it might be easier to not use the Fedora registry, but just publish them to Quay or something. But even for things like that, we'd have to set up an organization and some kind of process to as a team or even as a community to publish to those registries. I think that would help even better would be if the Fedora container registry would really become a success. I don't think it is at this point. Jason. Yeah, my thoughts went to OpenShift and OKD as well. And there's kind of a little bit of a mixture of models where, you know, certain core things are coming from RPMs, like your postgres or the different cartridges or not cartridges anymore, but the things that the sort of packages you build on and then the ideas you grab the source from upstream for the particular application, that's kind of a way where you have some important things that are maintained by the distribution. But then if the actual upstream source can just come from upstream, you sort of lighten some of the load on having everything packaged up, which is different than the way that things are normally done in Fedora. But, you know, if you're not running containers, then you have no way, you don't have a good way to manage your applications without the RPMs or another kind of package. But when you do have containers, it's great. They're more manageable if they're based on RPMs. But if they have to be based on RPMs, then that creates, you know, like you say, additional friction. So there's other things that kind of within our broader ecosystem, ways that parts of this challenge are being solved and it might help us to sort of adopt some similar themes and, you know, make it easier because there's a lot of people working on OpenShift and we can kind of draft off some of that effort as well. I definitely agree with that. I mean, so I think our takeaway from the, oh, it looks like Clement has a has a hand up to real quick though. Jason, I think one thing that we can take away from this is that, you know, we kind of have identified a problem of not having the applications available in our sphere to kind of solve the problems that our users are having, right? If they want to run containers on Fedora Core OS, they either need to build them themselves or go somewhere else to get them, which, you know, the go somewhere else to get them is okay. But in general, we do try to promote people to use trusted content and typically the only thing that we can say is trusted is content that comes from ourselves, right? Now, we might be able to set up like a side project that is like, oh, containers that are based on Fedora, but might pull source code from upstream or something. But I think what we've identified is the need for a concentrated, you know, session or two just on that topic to see where we can go from there on it to basically say our efforts for containerization in Fedora aren't working out. What are our options for kind of improving that? Clement? Yeah, I kind of wanted to switch a bit the subject because I see how it can be a pain point, but I don't think it's the major thing that will allow us to go over the community. Oh, absolutely. Yep. It kind of is, like I said, I put it at the bottom as like indirect progress, right? But I think I touched on a nerve because everybody who's gone through this and is trying to like actually pull from the content within Fedora has trouble with it, right? So yeah, definitely, I agree with you there. But yeah, let's bring it back to grow in the Fedora community directly. And I think probably I'm kind of coming back a bit to the messaging or who we want to talk to. And one thing that I found interesting with like the article we did with Timothy on the Matrix server is that I think there could be a, I think Christian brought that like kind of, there could be a place where we have like some, maybe a recipe like ignition recipe, where, you know, you want to deploy your Matrix server, you want to deploy your workplace thing, and we could possibly maintain some of those recipes. But we have the comments about like that the ignition recipe actually looks like very complicated. And why would you do that when you can use and sieve all and other stuff? I think there is a, we have to kind of like have a good idea of who we want to talk because we will have like people that very used to like the traditional way of maintaining an OS and like the more traditional tools. And we have also people that have made the full switch to Kubernetes or OpenShift. And I don't know, I wonder if we should maybe really focus our messaging to the people in between those two worlds. I'm not sure if there are many, I don't know. Colin, did you want to respond to Clamont's point or new? Yeah, definitely. No, I do want to go out. I agree. I think the, we are in like a space between, like as you said, between Kubernetes, like it's like, if you want to deploy containers on scale, that's the dominant platform. But I think there's, there's definitely a lot of use cases outside of that. And, you know, we want to, we want to make sure for our clients can get in those like, you know, like just one example I thought of was like, for some people, like you may have like your vault machine that like, you know, has a lot of secrets on it. And you just don't want to have it on like a shared cluster. It's like, you know, this is my, this is my lock box machine. And that's like kind of where for our classes that could fit. So, you know, I mean, there's, there's spaces like that. But I mean, I think this whole thing really gets into the overlap with IoT and stuff like that too. But I need to go all into that. Micah? Yeah, I don't have anything for this particular topic, but I want to give Mike a chance to talk podcast because we we've drifted from that. And he's eager, I think. Thank you. So if I could talk about community for a second. So I'm doing community right now for the, for the stuff project right now, as well as RDO and Rook, and somewhat of Gluster right now, because there are still engineers working on that project. So with podcasts, I wanted to offer up because I do have relations specifically also with Linux unplugged as well. And I have plans to carry out communication there with CentOS. So if you ever need people that could, you know, work in that area, let me know, because I have deep connections in there. Along with that, one of the things I wanted to talk about was, you know, producing a media content specifically with like videos and whatnot. And I wanted to share, you know, as particularly as a, you know, I think it's appropriate with this media. You can see, for example, with the stuff community, this isn't perfect, by the way, this is a work in progress. But essentially, we produce out 40 videos a month, just on what the stuff community is doing. I'm working on infrastructure for this as a template for open source projects to benefit off of within Red Hat, and for the rest of the OZBA team to carry out. So I wanted to throw that out there that, you know, stuff like this is available, we just need to know exactly what community stuff you need in order for us to help. But we have so much infrastructure, a lot of these topics, I have to tell you, like we got this down for you all. So as long as the conversation is focused around community, we can definitely help you there. That's really good to know. By the way, did you say 40 videos? That's correct, yeah. Wow, just for seven. And we did about 17 events in 2019 with a pretty small team. So like we have infrastructure to do all this stuff for you. It's just, we need to know what the problems are exactly, and then we need to be able to, you know, guide you all in what those problems are. I will admit, just to be honest in this meeting, and you will learn this about me in the future as well, that like these package questions, I really think are meant for the people who are maintaining those RPMs probably. I'm not sure if they're in this meeting to begin with, but this is a community meeting, and there are some people here that are taking the time to work with you all. So please be respectful in the future. That's all. Yeah, Mike, thanks for, thanks for kind of giving us a tour there. I think we'll, I think we'll definitely try to, you know, reach out and kind of maybe come up with a strategy to see, you know, what all you're doing. I mean, more video content it would be very nice to have, and we actually do periodically do internal demos just for our teams, but a lot of that content can be reused publicly. Yeah, there's very, very little that can be. Yeah, everything for like the showing off the use cases of people that are actually using Fedora, telling the stories there and so on. It's a real art. I have to tell you, I admire it within my team. They could really tell good stories. Like you could tell them a technical feature, they could spin it off for you. I'm only advocating for them in terms of what they could provide here. So anything you could think of, governance, code of conduct, so on. So we'd love to help. Marie? Sure, to further the points that Mike is making. Oh, by the way, I'm Marie Orden and Fedora's Community Action and Impact Coordinator. I don't think I've been to these meetings yet, but as Mike was saying to the staff community, we actually have a lot of this stuff in place for the Fedora community already. We're not super strong in the video editing aspect, so if Mike's community can help us with that, great. Meanwhile, we do have outlets. I put a bunch of information here because I want to make sure that y'all know what you have access to right now. You have access to all of these things right now. You can ask for swag. You can make an event on Hoppin. You can use surveys to figure out what people are doing with 4OS, et cetera. You can get designs made. So all the different needs that we've talked about here, there is an avenue within Fedora. Now, the mind share side of Fedora is not quite as staffed, right? Because the needs there are sometimes not as necessary as the things that are happening on the Festco side of Fedora. So if you open a ticket in one of these places and nothing's happening, just send it to me and we can figure out how to make it move forward. So that will happen on occasion, but it doesn't mean that there isn't someone. Often it takes a personal request to somebody, hey, can you work on this? Rather than just kind of throwing it out into the wild. So just want to make sure you know what is available and if anyone has questions on how to use these resources, I'm available to talk about them more. Yeah. Specifically on swag, obviously sending swag to our more dedicated community members is a good way to generate some buzz to a small example. This wasn't swag, but just something as small as creating a Fedora badge for an event. So for example, a test day and just handing out badges for people who participate, it's, I don't know. I've been on the other end of that where I'm like, oh cool, I got a badge. I mean, it's not, I like it. I think it's a fun way to participate and get rewarded. So for example, oh sorry, I was going to follow up with the swag thing. I realized I talked at a turn, but if you wanted to do like a swag boom, you would kind of open a ticket on the design track. Say, hey, we want to design something for XYZ product or maybe the other way around. Ask mindshifers. Ask mindshifers and see if it's cool. And then go to the design team, have them make you the art, bring it back, and then we just get a print. And then I would work on like the swag or the shipping and all of that because it's like some private information, whatnot. We work on gathering that, but something like that is definitely doable. And it honestly wouldn't cost that much, probably. Yeah. As far as budget goes, I know, I think Josh Burkus reached out to some of our team recently in a community meeting about having some budget for some swag. Marie, who's the right person to talk to if we, Josh was kind of working on like a design, you know, for like a shirt and a mug or something like that. Who's the right person to reach out to about like saying, hey, what, how does this design look? Is that Mo Duffy? Yeah. Fedora Corales, yeah, would be Mo Duffy. Okay, cool. Sumatra? Hey, so I just wanted to point out on one thing. We have done a couple of test weeks, something back. It would be great to have, I mean, I'm called up for supporting you guys on the execution front as much as I can. And as Marie has listed out some links here, you know, classroom is something that we have gotten a lot of contributors contributing from to the project. So I will be opening to, you know, having a couple of classrooms to help people set up or run a couple of tutorials that's already on the docks. So that would help get a lot of traction to the community. So just wanted to put that out there. Nice. Thanks, Montreux. Yeah, I think that would be very valuable. We've definitely run a couple workshops at our conferences. And I think we've done them virtual now that COVID's been out. So like just taking that, reusing that content in a classroom setting would be really useful. Timothy, I think you may have ran one recently. When is, oh, I guess no, I guess Dev Comp isn't until a few weeks from now, but they're doing something very similar to that. So you could probably just work with them and redo it in a classroom setting later on to some Montreux. Okay. Is there anything that we haven't covered any other ideas for ways to kind of bring people into the fold that we haven't covered in the document or just in conversation already today? Maybe to add to that, do we have any community members here that have specific pain points or see something we could do better? Like anything actionable that would fix a real problem for our community folks here? I guess I'll yield to Clément. Yeah, I want to complain. I think so, you know, we discussed a few things like we have like a possible possibility to get help. And I think we definitely have like few actions that we can take. But I would be curious to know how can we evaluate our progress and what does success looks like for us? And how do we know that we're doing a good job on that front? I think it would be nice to, you know, if we put some effort, if we start to do some content, anything like that, try to have something that tells us that we are on the good way. Or if we kind of like doing all this, but it doesn't really have an impact. Yeah. So obviously anything, any metrics that we can have, right? Like numbers are typically one good way to measure things. And, you know, because there's quantitative and qualitative measurement, right? I can tell you that I feel like the community is growing, but I don't have any proof of that. So I know Timothy did some work on the the DNF count me type stuff for Fedora Horowitz specifically. So that will help us kind of understand if our community is growing in terms of the number of nodes, right? That doesn't necessarily tell us everything because, you know, one user could spin up 10 million nodes and completely, you know, we could have two users, right? Me and that one other person, and we've got 10 million in one nodes. But it does, it is a rough, you know, estimate of how strong, you know, our community is. One other thing that we could do that we're not doing, and I don't necessarily know if it's easy to pull in is kind of measure our traffic on our mailing list or our discussion boards, our GitHub tracker. So those are, sounds like Mike might have some way to do that already. I used to do all the stats for the OpenStack Foundation as well. So anything with stats, user survey, all that stuff, it can help with that. Cool, perfect. Yep. So that was another way that I thought of that we might be able to get some actual numbers back, right? I don't know of anything else. I mean, obviously, you just mentioned a survey that would be kind of, you know, just simply measuring participation in the survey is another number to get. So the survey gives us qualitative information and the number of people who respond is a quantitative thing that we could do. So we're pretty, we pretty much can start from scratch and start measuring and just see where the trend goes would be my suggestion. Right. I was going to suggest starting with a community survey. I think that's a really good place to start. Starting point, you can start measuring things off of. You can repeat the survey in three or six months and that kind of thing. And we can work on making those questions useful and getting some really good information out of them before we put that out there. And I think that will inform what you're going to do. But, Deanna, I would just suggest like, I think we all know how little resources in time we have because there's a lot going on. So I think something that should be focused on is really making the most out of what everyone is doing already. What are y'all doing the best? Do more of that. And definitely hit those, the pain points too. Make sure you're filling the gaps. But we have, you know, limited time and resources. So definitely want to simplify the process and the program that you are trying to write up here. Mike. Yeah, so while we're talking about surveys, I just like I'm just trying to get this out right now. It is a lot of work around the messaging and whatnot. I have to tell you as being previously an engineer on the kernel itself, it's a lot of work to deliver this messaging. So if I may share like an example of what we could do with surveys, let's see here we go. I understand this is a preview link. So please don't share this out to people yet. I'm still actually working on in terms of getting this out and the messaging correctly. But you could kind of get an idea of what we do with the user survey with stuff. And this is for 2020. Right now we're calm. Give me one second. I'll paste it in the chat. Jonathan. I just wanted to highlight something people said in the chat, which was we could have like projects for through G stock or outreach. And that like improves the profile of F cost across like a bunch of communities because a lot of people look at that look at those projects. And that's a good idea. That is true. I do people do scan through the projects in there because they are typically exciting. So like, Oh, yeah, I love that. And, you know, pipe wire or something like that. So yeah, I agree. And there's also actual projects that we have that would be great for, you know, an intern or outreach he participant to work on. So yeah, more mentorship opportunities for us there and opportunities to reach that community too. So we're at about at the end of the allotted time for this meeting. If there's any last minute topics you could discuss in the next 60 seconds. That was the time. Otherwise, I think it gives time for folks to take a break because we have a next other session in 10 minutes about for our choruses official edition, which will also help grow our community real quick before we go. So like obviously we've talked about a lot here. Is there anything that I know we've taken some things and said that would be really good to do? For example, actually having a focus session talking about the problems around the door as container strategy. We also have talked about a million other things. Is there anything that we want to specifically take an action item? For example, we follow up with Mike and try to help out with strategy and maybe bring in a few other people. Just because I'm not a professional community person. And it sounds like you guys have a lot of resources there that we haven't necessarily tapped into, right? So it would be nice if we try to write down at least a few things for us to make sure that we do as a result of this, even if it's like, oh, talk more about this specific part of it. Yeah, I can help coordinate that, Dusty. Mike and Marie are both on my team. So we have other people in the OSPO who work on some of these specific areas. So I'll work with you to make sure we get some next actions along those lines. Perfect. That sounds great. I'll toss it back to Mike then. Cool. All right. I'm just going to close the meeting then. I hit the stop record button. Thank you all for coming and participating. It was very valuable, I think, to everyone involved. The hard part is to figure out the next steps, I think. But I think we have a better idea of the resources available for those next steps. So again, thank you all for coming. We'll have another session in 10 minutes using the same URL about making Fedor Core OS an official Fedora edition. So take a break and come back refreshed in 10 minutes if you care to join us. Thank you. Bye-bye. Thank you all.