 by way of introduction. If you didn't happen to look at it in the bulletin, Hina Khan Mukhtar lives in the East Bay. She's the mother of three boys. She's an author, blogger, teacher, and much to my delight. She has become active in interfaith dialogue. We'll talk about how that came to be. This conversation arose out of what I would describe as inflamed rhetoric, especially at the end of last year, growing out of several incidents of violence. And my belief that the reaction, especially in the media, came from fear and ignorance. And the best antidote to fear and ignorance is familiarity and education. And putting a human face to things. So Hina has agreed to come speak with me and with us. I don't claim to speak for all Christians. I am not going to ask Hina to speak for all Muslims. What you will see this morning is a conversation between two individuals. And yet, as two individuals, we have more or less volunteered to represent our different faiths to each other, and including you in that conversation. So maybe we're not as much representatives as we are role models this morning. So my first question for you, Hina, is the one that's sort of the broadest. And we'll give you a chance to run with it. Which is, what do you wish that non-Muslims knew about Islam? So that question always comes to mind, depending on who I'm speaking with. Because in different communities, you find out that there's different misconceptions, misconceptions. I guess these days, especially with the media and all the messages that are being put out there, I think one thing that is really important for the general public to understand is that Islam in America is nothing new. It's not something that's suddenly coming across the borders. We've been here from the beginning. They say that there was Muslims on the ships. There's historical evidence that there was Muslims on the ships with Christopher Columbus coming from Spain and also with the African slave trade. Many Muslims were brought over at that time as well. Another misconception that I would love for people to get clarified is about how Muslims love Jesus, that Jesus Christ is a very, very revered prophet and Islamic tradition. And we love him. I've always felt a special affinity with him out of all of the prophets that we've learned about. He's mentioned more in the Quran than the prophet Muhammad himself. And so whenever I hear any hymns or songs or praise of Jesus, I have absolutely no Muslim I know has any problem saying amen right along with that. So I think those are probably two of the major misconceptions I would want to address. Just to remind me and maybe to help some of the people here describe besides the prophet Muhammad who is the central prophet, what other prophets are included in your list of? Pretty much all the biblical prophets that you read about in the Bible and the Torah. Moses is the prophet who's mentioned most in the Quran. Whenever we do mention any of the prophets, we say peace be upon him after mentioning their name out of reverence. There are some Islamic scholars who believe that Mary may have been a prophet as well. That's an opinion. And there's an entire chapter in the Quran called the chapter of Mary. So she's a very revered figure. But David, Solomon, John the Baptist, Adam was the first prophet. So yeah, you name it those other prophets we believe in. So the Quran is Muslim scripture. How is the Old Testament and New Testament, how are they treated? How are they seen? So the Christians and the Jews by Muslims are called the people of the book. That's how God refers to them in the Quran. So that as considered to be communities that believed in one God and had prophets sent to them. The difference that we believe in the prophets is that the prophets, the biblical prophets, were sent to specific communities to teach the people in a specific time. And we see the prophet Muhammad as the last prophet in a long line of prophets. And that he was sent for all of mankind, all of humanity. Like when people say that, oh, Islam needs a reformation. Muslims actually see, Islam sees itself as a reformation. Actually of like previous faith traditions. And so yeah, the prophets are absolutely adored and you hear a lot in the media about Muslims going crazy when anything is said disrespectful about the prophet Muhammad. But what people don't know is that there is also a lot of hurt and a real visceral reaction to any of the prophets being made fun of. I know a few years ago there was an art exhibit in New York City where they were talking about making a chocolate, a statue of Jesus, a nude statue of Jesus out of chocolate. And then after the art exhibit, they were gonna eat the statue. And it had all the private parts as well. And I know that there were Muslims who really were feeling like that was disrespectful to a prophet that they adored. And they wrote letters saying that he shouldn't be depicted nude and you know. Yeah, in particular, is there something that you wish Americans knew about Islamic practice? Islamic practice, you know with the relationship with God, it's a very private relationship with God but it's seen very publicly. So like when I go out and I've got the headscarf on, you know, it's a public manifestation of my faith. If I'm at the park and the time for prayer comes in and I find a private spot in which I wanna go, say my afternoon prayer, anyone passing by will see it. And so for a lot of people, they see the outward form of the Islamic way of practicing the religion but they're not aware of what's actually going on on the inside. And there's many different dimensions to the Islamic tradition and the Islamic way of living. And Muslims really honestly from all the people I know, the Christians, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, there's no difference. Everybody wants the same thing. They worry about their families. They want peace on earth. They wanna be good to their neighbors. But a lot of the traditions of Muslims are different from what we see out there going on a daily basis. But hearing like the singing in the church that reminded me also of the singing that we have in our mosques. We don't have music, but we have like a drum that goes with the singing. But just the fact that hearts are moved and souls are moved by music is a universal thing. That's pretty important in this congregation. Yeah. So that leads me to my next question, that your involvement in interfaith work, it's clearly a passion for you. How did that come about? You know, a lot of Muslims are very insular and they're in their communities and they're not necessarily out there. And what we realized, especially after 9-11 is that that has to stop. We have to get out there. We have to be willing to talk about who we are. And I know many of us are nervous about being seen as proselytizing and trying to go out and convert people. So people stay private and they stay in their own circles. But I think what did it for me was this Pew survey came out and this national Pew survey which showed that a majority of Americans had an unfavorable view of Muslims. But what was interesting was that the majority of that majority did not know a Muslim. And the minority that had a favorable view of a Muslim, the majority of that minority actually knew a Muslim. So what the statistics are showing is that that old fashioned rule of just getting to know one another, that that's what makes a difference. That once you get out there and you get to know each other and can put a name to the face and can put a face to the religion, it makes a difference. Now there's a lot of diversity within the Christian tradition. Different approaches to worship, different approaches to theology. That's true for Islam as well. For example, not all Muslims are Arabs and the way Islam is practiced might depend to some degree on culture and ethnicity. Is that correct? So how do you approach this diversity within your own tradition? The understanding is that all the different traditions are supposed to be respected and it's totally fine to believe that the way you're practicing your faith is the best way to practice it. But with the understanding that it's totally possible that another person's way of practicing their faith may be just as good if not better. So there has to be humility with it. The difference is that you will see our cultural Islam spans the globe. The Islam you'll see in Africa will be very different from the Islam you'll see in India and the Islam in Indonesia. The Islam in the Middle East and in the Arab countries is different. Unfortunately, in the media you'll see one depiction like from one part of the world usually where there's the most political strife. But you go to Malaysia and you see the Islam there and I find it beautiful everywhere obviously but how I approach it is just finding respect and having respect for all the different traditions and knowing that everybody's just trying to please God. That's a wonderful approach and as you may have guessed within our tradition that doesn't always happen either. Of course we all think the way we're doing it is at least the best way for us. But there's a tremendous amount of disrespect even among the Christian traditions and it's saddening, it really is. And the media shows pretty much one kind of fundamentalist approach. So can you tell us what ways your culture impacts your family in practice? So it's really interesting because we're in this new phenomenon where people are trying to figure out what it means to be an American Muslim. Recently one of the scholars from our mosque, his sermon got posted and his sermon was in English and he's an internationally renowned scholar. He's got followers from all over the globe and you never want to read the comments section but in the comments a Muslim had written what kind of sermon is this? It's not an Arabic and a sermon isn't valid unless it's an Arabic which showed that people really do think that where they're from, the way they're doing it is the correct way. And so as an American Muslim, especially raising my kids here, it's trying to figure out how to take the best of what this culture has to offer and see the Islam in it. So for example, like in our family and my community, people don't celebrate Halloween and it's seen as having pagan roots and celebrating demonic elements. That's how many Muslims view it. However, Thanksgiving is completely embraced because Thanksgiving is seen as a celebration of gratitude and a celebration of thanking God for what you've been given. Even Christmas, even Christmas is something that people honor even if they don't celebrate it because it is a recognition of the miraculous birth of Christ, Muslims recognize the immaculate conception and that Mary was a virgin. And so, you know, using that filter. So I know one of my teachers said that Islam, whatever culture it goes to is like a sieve and so you take out the parts that don't correlate with the Islamic belief but to keep the stuff that even if it's not from Islam, you know, validates what we believe. That's a great metaphor. I like that. And I think in our tradition, we struggle with that as well. I think we're less likely to, I'll speak for myself, less likely to think in terms of which parts will injure my Christianity as opposed to which parts will injure my children just generally. And I think I've mentioned to you or to the congregation that Pina has a particular focus on raising Muslim children. She's got some terrific articles on raising kids with manners and raising kids in the culture, religion and culture that I think that if I say them correctly, Dean and Dunya, the words that mean faith and culture. And so from your perspective on culture, can Allah, can God speak through culture? Oh, absolutely. I mean, human beings are cultural beings. And so, and one of my favorite lines from the Quran, because we believe the Quran to be the direct revelation of God, like the word of God. And is that, oh mankind, I've created you in nations and tribes so that you may know one another. Which if you take that further, you realize it's not so that you destroy each other or so that you make everybody be one culture, even one religion. I mean, God in His mercy has created us in different religions and different tribes and different cultures, but it's so that we may come to know one another. And so I personally do believe that God can speak to us through culture. What is central to you about Islam? Central to me about Islam is, the analogy that I was once given that really spoke to me was of this world being kind of like, you know, when you see a father holding a baby and he throws the baby up in the air and then catches the baby again. And when you see the baby up in the air, he's in the state of panic, frightened. He's laughing before, then he's in a state of panic and then he comes back to his mother's or father's hands and is content and calm once again and laughing. That's the analogy that was given to me is that that is what state we're in right now, having been thrown out into the world and we're in this state, mankind is just in the state of anxiety and panic and not knowing what's coming next but to know that we came from good hands and we're going back to good hands and to really just center on that. The thing that we're taught over and over in our tradition is that this isn't home. This is, we're here for a little while on the Prophet Muhammad told us to treat this world like you're on a journey and like you're crossing a bridge and you don't build your home on the bridge. The bridge is just to get from one point to the next. And so focusing on being good to one another and worshiping God and trying to live the life that the prophets have taught us about how we're supposed to live our lives so that we can then find peace in our true home which comes in the next life. I love the tossing the baby metaphor that I think fits very well for us as well. I have a question about the violence done in the name of religion but I want to qualify by saying that I'm completely aware that violence is done in the name of pretty much every religion. But how do you tell your sons or three sons when the media is plastering this all over about violence done in the name of particular Islam? Yeah, it's a struggle. It's every phase of life of parenting you discover something new and this is something that I didn't think I would be grappling with. My heart is really going out to African-American mothers who've raised their children in the society and to the Palestinian mothers who are having to raise their sons in occupied territories because I'm only now starting to experience what it's like to raise three young men who have testosterone and they have dignity and they don't want anyone to mess with them and they're just day in, day out hearing things in high school. And I talked to my son after the Paris attacks I wrote an article about it where I said to him you might want to think about what you're going to say to kids when you go back to school on Monday and I remember he just all of a sudden looked irritated and he said oh I'm a pro at this now. He said my freshman year I think it was the Benghazi, the bombing in Libya I had to deal with that. Then the next year it was Charlie Hebdo then the year after that, the year before that was Boston sophomore year was Boston Marathon Bombing last year was Charlie Hebdo now I have to deal with this. He said I'm a pro and I felt really bad for him. It was heartbreaking and I said I'm sorry I'm sorry that this is your reality and then he said isn't it sad that I've become a pro at this? And I said absolutely but he said you know I feel like I'm not fighting for my rights as a Muslim he said I feel like I'm fighting for my rights as an American because every day the message that's being given to Muslim kids in schools is that you guys need to go home and you guys are all terrorists and your parents need to be investigated and your mosques need to be investigated and he said the rumors that are spreading in school about what Muslims believe it's like putting out fires everywhere you go so recently what happened with my son is some guy said something to him and he said something which I won't repeat but he said something that shut the guy up but isn't in line with what we've been teaching as far as how you're supposed to respond to somebody who's oppressing you and what I told him was you know I'm worried that you think that these stories that we've taught you about the prophets and how they dealt with trials and tribulations in their lives that you think those are all fairy tales those we haven't taught you about how Jesus turned the other cheek and how the prophet Muhammad went and asked after the woman who used to throw trash on him every time he walked down this one alleyway and one day she didn't throw trash and then she went he went and checked on her found out she was sick and prayed for her to get better you know we haven't told you these stories as fairy tales that there's a point and it's to teach you how how to deal when you're being oppressed and when you're being oppressed that's that's when you find out who you truly are what you're really made of so it was a long conversation and it's a conversation we've had over and over but um you know I what I told them is the the biggest thing that happens with being tried is most people don't even know they're being tried and so they don't even stop to think about okay well what how does God want me to respond in this moment so it's just one other aspect of parenting that's coming up now that's a that's a terrific child raising phrase how does God want me to respond respond in this moment yeah it's gonna keep that in mind I have a bunch more questions I'm gonna run out of time but I want to ask the one I think that's most important for us right now which is what can we do what what can Muslims and Christians do to respond to this tide of intolerance what can we do together you know uh what what you've done today is an example of of what people can do and um and I'll be honest all the interfaith work that I'm involved in every everything has been started by the Christians and the Jews it's by Christians and Jews saying come to our congregations come speak to our community what can we do how can we help because it's true the Muslims are feeling very frightened are scared are trying to figure out how to raise their kids how to give their kids dignity how how to give their kids confidence in who they are and so reaching out to the Muslim community has been immense goodwill immense goodwill we had Christian churches in the Tri City area Tri Valley area come out and they formed a ring of solidarity around our mosque on one day and this was before Paris happened before San Bernardino and we had rabbis and pastors and reverends speak and at that time what I said when I was asked to speak was you know the next incident we don't want it to happen God forbid may God protect all of us but it's right around the corner and when it happens to be able to tell our kids remember those people who came and formed the ring of solidarity around our mosque focus focus on them don't focus on like what Donald Trump is saying you know don't focus on what Fox News is saying you know and sure enough I mean you know that was just earlier on in the year and then by the end of the year we had a number of tragedies happen and yeah it's just like it's important for Christians and Jews to know that not all Muslims are what you see in the media it's important for the Muslim community to see that as well that the person yelling the loudest at the microphone isn't the one necessarily representing everyone's voices well I would like to commit to stay in touch and maybe we could do something longer maybe an after-worship thing some other time we had something else planned for today but some other time we would be thrilled to have you come back UNC Sean thank you