 And to all of you, welcome to our session on women's political leadership is essential for democracy as part of the global democracy coalition forum. It's my name is Sophia Fernandez some senior technical advisor political inclusion at the Westminster Foundation for democracy. And it's my absolute pleasure to be co hosting this event with demo Finland. Both of our organizations have a very strong strategic commitment to advancing women's political participation and representation around the world. So this is a very, very apt event for us and we have a very exciting panel today. This forum is a 24 hour virtual event that is being hosted in advance of the summit for democracy which will be held later this week. And actually tomorrow, the United States and the government of Sweden is hosting an event as part of the summit, looking at advancing the status of women is advancing the status of our democracy so we couldn't be holding this conversation more of an at time. Our expectation is that we will be able to feed into the summit from the discussion today. My colleagues will be posting some links in the chat about the, the rest of the event, the global coalition democracy coalition forum, and also about the summit for democracy event. So this is a matter of, of logistics, this event is being recorded. The chat function is available should you like to comment and join our conversation. We also have a hashtag for Twitter. And while we'll be having a conversation with our panelists. You're also welcome to submit your questions along the way in the Q&A function there as well. On our panel I'm very, very excited to briefly introduce each of our panel members. Joining us from the UK is the right honourable Maria Miller, the member for Basing Stoke. Maria was the former Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, and also the former Minister for Women and Equalities. Maria also held the chair of the Women and Equalities House of Commons committee and pioneered that role, and now holds a range of positions as chairs of committees, and of APPG, all party parliamentary groups. She's also a member of the board of WFD. Joining us from Finland is Ambassador Kachi Minika. It's a pleasure to have you Ambassador. Ambassador Minika holds the position of ambassador for gender equality at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Finland since 2018. She's had a long career in Finnish foreign policy, as well as in mediation. Last but not least, our MP from South Africa for the Democratic Alliance. Sivire is currently the Shadow Minister for Health, so as you can imagine, it's probably been a very busy time, but it's such a pleasure to have you here in our panel today. So it will do. I mean, for us, I think in for all our panelists, we would say that it's fairly obvious that there's a case for women political leaders and that we are all essential for thriving democracies. We know that women exercise political leadership, whether they are formally recognized for it or not in formal and informal spaces. And that it's not only a human right, but it's important for the success of societies for women to be represented at the decision making table. But here we are making the case again and we see globally over the last few years, the regression, the black sliding, the increase of violence, and certainly the COVID-19 pandemic amongst others that has caused women to both leave the political space, but also really hesitate to enter it in the first place all around the world. So today we're yet again making the case and we're using data and evidence that we hope is unequivocal as well as the lived experiences of each of the panelists here. And so firstly, I'd like to invite Maria Miller to set the scene and then we'll move on into our conversation. So Maria, I hand over to you. Thank you, Sophia. And thank you for the opportunity to open this really important discussion. And I'm sitting here today, taking part from our own Parliament building here in Westminster. A Parliament building that's been here for hundreds of years and a Parliament building that works hard to make sure that there is legitimacy for our democratic institutions in the UK. And it's really important that we acknowledge right at the start of this discussion that it is essential for our democratic institutions to be seen as legitimate and to be seen as representative as part of that. And indeed the struggles and strife of many hundreds of years has gone into making sure that whether it's female women being able to vote or women being able to sit within our Parliaments, these are things that have been long fought over, as we discussed, but those battles and conversations are not yet over, certainly not in my own Parliament, where we still see just one in three, one in three of our parliamentarians being female and ethnic minority representation being significantly below that which you would expect given the population of the United Kingdom as a whole. And I have a very large question mark over whether Parliaments, including my own are really taking seriously the issue of legitimacy when they're looking at how they present themselves and how they work with political parties to help recruit and encourage representative individuals to come forward. And when it comes to the role of women within that, you know, why would anybody want our political leadership at whatever level of government in the United Kingdom or in any country around the world to be anything other than the best it could be. And at the moment, too often, political parties are not effectively reaching out to the whole population when they're starting to recruit candidates for their legislative organizations, or to be part of political discourse more broadly. At the moment, exactly what happens is it's almost as if we're trying to fight these battles to succeed to have better democracies with one hand tied to hide our back, because we are not effectively reaching out to female residents to stand for political leadership. That's important for our democratic institutions, but it's also important for the quality of the policies that come forward, the quality of the debate about issues of the day, because there is now very little that can be argued to say that women don't have a unique position to bring. It's really important to acknowledge that the way women experience their lives, how they experience discrimination, how they have caring responsibilities, and indeed, women's style of business all are, you know, bring something new and different to the political life, political discourse and political institutions. It's essential that we continue to take this problem seriously, that we show that we put the burden not only on political parties but on to parliamentary institutions as well, to make changes that are absolutely essential to show women that they are welcome into not only standing for election but to be elected and to take on significant roles within those democratic institutions. We need to show women that they can succeed in standing for election. We need to reach out to more women to come forward to see this as part of what they can do to contribute back to their communities and their countries. And we need to support and retain women who do stand for election. Here in the UK Parliament, the average tenure of a female MP is significantly shorter than her male counterpart. So we take a long time to recruit women, we find it difficult to recruit women, and then we allow them to leave far more readily than their male counterparts. That's one thing that we need to work on certainly in the UK. There can be few countries in the world that couldn't improve their situation for women in their elected bodies in leadership positions and throughout the political discourse that happens in media as well. And the UK is absolutely no exception to that. So I was absolutely delighted that WFD is taking on this issue so readily through this session today. And it really is fantastic, Sophia, to be able to be part of this and to hear the views of others. And I apologise, I'm not allowed, I'm not able to stay through the whole of the session but I'm actually chairing a bill committee. So, and as one of the few women who are on the speakers panel, I need to make sure that I complete that task as well. Thank you. Thank you so much, Maria. And while we've got you will start a little bit of the discussion and then know that you've got to leave very soon. So we've heard, we've heard from Maria about the importance of women to be to be in this in the political space and at the decision making table and some of the ways that we can get there. So if I can start with you Ambassador Vineker, what are some, what are three practical tips or three practical things that you would say about how to get that we need to be addressed to facilitate women's political participation. Thank you so much and good afternoon everybody and it's really a pleasure for me to to participate in in this very important discussion concerning women's political participation. I'd like to take up three practical practical things. And first of them, I think is, I mean, globally globally seen is really the education of women and girls. I think women's and girls education is a precondition for the political participation, because it's through education that women and girls become aware of their rights, including their political rights. Education also provides skills that help women participate in politics and public life. And I think that political participation today requires ability to understand very complex issues so so education, education obviously is one of the keys. Then secondly, and I think this is very, very finished approach, but successful as such is the otherwise conducive environment, which includes sharing, sharing the care, because women of course are quite often, so to say, time, time poor. They have so many other responsibilities in most societies. They have to do most of the homework and bear the burden of unpaid care. So sharing the care is very important and in Finland, we are very proud of our, for instance, our childcare arrangements that have helped Finland to increase women's political participation. And I think that the more there are women in parliament, then easier it becomes to legislate even more progressive arrangements for sharing the care, for instance. And then the third aspect I would like to mention is to prevent online gender based violence that women in politics increasingly face. I think it's just become a recently really serious obstacle to women's political participation. As it was said, it may be difficult to recruit women for elections and one of the reasons is the fear of being harassed hate speech. It's really a serious problem that Finland has tried to address in many ways and also on international forum like Freedom Online Coalition and Generation Equality campaign led by the United Nations where Finland has been advocating for this particular topic. Thank you. Thank you, Ambassador. We'll come back and pick up on some of those points. I know, Maria, before you go baby I'll turn to you and then I'll turn over to Sylvia. So Maria, I can turn to you for your top three areas that you would like to address. I know you've been doing a lot of work in the UK on addressing online violence against women as well. Absolutely, Sophia and the Minister I think has picked up three really important issues. I'm going to try and add to that if I can because I think there's so much work that's been done in this area that we can all learn from. I think we need to within political parties and within parliament show women that they can succeed now because of people like the minister who we've just heard of. Most countries have wonderful role models who we can use to encourage other women to see this as a legitimate part of their career planning. We need to be able to do that but we need to create environments within our parliaments so that women can succeed at any age. So in the UK Parliament, we've been looking at how we can support women who might have children. It's really odd to say that we've never accommodated women in that way before, but we now have a proxy leave for parents, and we're looking at other things that we can do to support women who have children while they're elected. I think also it's psychological and the minister hinted at this, which we have to demonstrate that women can change things because I think if they come into Parliament and find that politics is not a lever to pull if you want to change society for the better, then they will go and do other things they will go and run a charity they will go and do something where they can pull that lever and see that change the minister talked about being time poor. I think it's even more philosophical and that it's sort of, you know, wanting to see change because their time is so short. And then the final thing I would say is, our political model certainly in the UK is all about candidates putting themselves forward for election. Women don't work like that they want to be asked. And so I'm a huge supporter of the ask her to stand campaign here in the UK run by 5050 Parliament, because we have to ask women to stand for election. And every International Women's Day now I run an event in my constituency and here in Parliament, which is all about asking women to stand to put it on their radar to challenge them to do it, but also to encourage them to do it, because I think that women do want to be asked. They wait to be asked, they don't put themselves forward in the same way that our political model is is is baked around a very male centered political world. Thanks Maria, I know you'll have a lot to say about this so turning to you what are your top three practical things that you would like to address be addressed to advance women's political participation. Thank you Sophia I mean I think that there are a number of things and a number of them have already been mentioned I do want to elaborate on the point that Maria made, particularly around asking women to stand. And the point that I'm about to make is very much linked to that, that ultimately, in particularly in liberal organizations, at least, you know that don't believe in quarters, what you will have is a scenario where, you know, unless women stand for political leadership or they stand to be a list or they stand to be elected as MPs, they won't be elected. And then it's very easy for political parties for parliament for really political organizations to turn and say well, we're not going to force women to stand. And therefore this is why representation is so poor. And so I think that there needs to be two things and I think it's, it's too prompt, the one is definitely an encouragement for women to stand for political leadership and for them to see politics as a means to change circumstances in their countries. Secondly, I also think that the women who are in politics should also be working very hard to change the culture within political organizations, because I think that the culture can also be incredibly toxic. And the culture can also be incredibly repelling to people who are either talented, or who doesn't have to be women, but people who have other options will say well, I'd much rather be an accountant and and work towards that in my country or I'd much rather run a charity than be stuck in a toxic political environment and so I think the women who are within the political ranks need to make it a point that we do change political cultures within our organizations, and we need to snuff out the culture that is repelling women to stand and to stay, because there's also something that also where women can stand, but may not necessarily stay, and, and often people will say well, you know, if you don't have the longevity, then perhaps you don't belong in politics. So it is then our duty to make sure that as people who've already put our hands up, how do we make sure that there's sustenance, and people stay on and then the last thing I will say for me, which is incredibly important is that often and I think particularly in the role of African politics you used to have in political parties, strong women's organizations or women's desks, and often I've found particularly as a young politician that these are often used to sideline women as a way to say run for political leadership, but be the leader of the women's organization, be the leader of the women's desk, or lead the women's network, and ultimately what that does is that it alienates women to the sidelines to say that you deal with women issues on the sidelines there. You discuss gender based violence, you discuss sexual harassment, come up with solutions to help you exist in politics, and almost you do your knitting on the side, while we do the main political work in the main political parties. And my view is that that needs to change. We don't want to run for political positions and youth wings and women's desks. Women need to contest main political power in mainstream politics, because it's only then that you get to change things, and it's only then that you get to make what is seen as niche women's issues as the main political issues. It's only then that we start to change the culture in politics, and it stops becoming about this boys club, but it becomes a far more inclusive so lots of issues that have been raised here by my colleagues, but added to that. I think we've got to look at it also with these additional points, thanks. Maria, would you like to come in on that about the culture inside politics and political parties and any of those points. I thought that was very inspiring contribution and I noted down the points that were raised around this tension of women wanting to make sure that the issues that they can see very distinctly that need to be addressed, not then being used as a way of sidelining them into something which isn't of the mainstream. And I, as I say that I mean political parties have got to take make the running in this but I think parliamentary institutions do as well. So if I take somewhere like my own parliament where we struggle to get equal numbers of women leading select committees which are asked very very well respected scrutiny functions in its scrutiny function in the House of Commons. And the number of women who are chairing those select committees, which are cross party is significantly less than the number of men chairing those positions. And we were talking about how we might address that. And of course one could one could immediately say well you have to have a you know 5050 split of them but I think that then doesn't actually address the underlying issue here which is how we recruit people for these positions how we elect them to those positions, and to really look at why women are not putting themselves forward in the first place and in fact, in, in, in our parliament you can look at even the asking of questions in the house is more dominated than men proportionately than women. So I think we institutions should have an obligation to look at themselves to challenge themselves about how they are supporting, particularly women but overall more diversity. We are certainly in our parliament, but we do that somewhat, we look at the, the gender of people giving evidence to our select committees. We have some cursory oversight of the way women are treated within debates, but I think it needs to go one stage to fall into the trap that that the previous speaker was talking about, which is inadvertently sidelining women, even when they do reach an elected institution after have to go through those battles they then find themselves in some way sidelined and not able to participate in the way that they would, if they were, as the example was used an accountant or a lawyer, or in any other profession. Thanks, Maria. And this ambassador really, would you like to add a comment about political institutions and maybe even political parties and what can they do to be truly inclusive to really change the dynamic. Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. Well, that's, that's a very important question indeed. Of course, it's as it was said, the organizational culture of the parties is very important. Indeed, and how to ensure that women really have equal opportunities, both to join a party and also to become electoral candidates, and how to ensure that they will have the same resources, capacity building as their male colleagues, for instance, training in the party and so on. So this is the first point maybe. But then the second one is that this is all rooted in the powerful social norms and gender stereotypes of our societies. So these social norms and stereotypes should be addressed and changed. And this is of course very challenging. Something that has to begin in, I think, in early childhood education, but political parties really should become truly inclusive and gender equal. And then, then, then, of course, what we are stressing a lot in Finland is the, at the moment is the intersectional approach. So that women are not a homogeneous group, but they are different. They have different ethnic backgrounds, maybe in Finland, not to the same extent as in the UK, because in Finland migration is a younger phenomenon. But for instance women with disabilities, this is something that we are stressing a lot in the foreign ministry at the moment. This is actually one of the priorities of our development policy, how to support women with disabilities. I mean, women have to be treated as diverse individuals, and it's really a threat to democracy if certain people or groups feel excluded from politics. Thank you. I'm speaking about changing social norms, one of the ways that we've been finding it in our research, that we do see social norm changes when members of parliament like yourselves, Maria, like yourself to the way work with feminist organizations with women's rights organizations and with those in our community who can collectively work to shift some of these spaces. Maria, can you talk about some of those examples in your work? Absolutely, Sophia. I mean, the area particularly I focus on is women in the workplace, and I've been working with a wide cross section of organizations to address a number of issues, which together can make it very difficult for women in the UK to achieve the same in their working life as their male counterparts, whether that's around gender pay gaps, and obviously organizations like the Forza Society do tremendous work on that, whether it's around sexual harassment in the workplace and how that can impact things for women who experience sexual harassment and even then are pushed out of the workplace if they lodge complaints. And the third area is the use of non-disclosure agreements to then cover up discrimination that women experience, whether that's something like sexual harassment or perhaps maternity discrimination. And I've been working for a number of years now with maternity alliance, pregnant and screwed, which is another interest group in that area. And on non-disclosure agreements working with Zelda Perkins, who was one of the people who suffered with regards to the Harvey Weinstein debacle over in Hollywood, and suffered with the use of a non-disclosure agreement in a very punitive way, which she speaks very movingly about. And I think it's by working with outside organizations, working with women who've experienced these sorts of issues, which too many people in parliament haven't got firsthand of, you can really build a very strong narrative. And hopefully demonstrate going back to that point about making sure our democratic institutions are seen as legitimate, that to demonstrate to the electorate that actually democratic institutions do have people within them that understand the lives of half of the population. Thanks Maria, see the way in your work, and I know that you've entered parliament as a young woman in your 20s and now taking on a role as deputy whip, congratulations on that position, it's a senior position in your party. How do you connect and bring in those voices from those movements outside the formal political space? Thank you. And I think, I mean, I think firstly, like Maria said, it's also about, you know, attracting or at the very least working with organizations that could assist members of parliament in dealing or at least influencing these areas of influence. But I also think it's also a talent attraction tool, right, because I'm very passionate about saying find politicians who've either done or led other lives who want to come and use politics as a space to advance social change. And so if there are organizations that are led by incredibly talented people who are keen to run for public office, then that is one of the tools in which you can work with people and say I want to work with these organizations. It can also be a talent pool and a way of attracting talent to politics, because it is a worrisome phenomenon in my view that politics just simply becomes, or at least the chambers of parliament become just in a resting place for people who've either done it all and seen it all, as opposed to people who are energized and animated about effects and change. So it is a great way to attract talent and people who have expertise in these various fields. But also I think it's also an important way to Ghana supports for global movements in the sense that women are able to tap if you are women leaders in parliament are able to tap into those networks and get the kind of support that they need for instance platforms like this, you form a network across the world where you are able to learn from one another, you are able to implement some of the various things that are happening in other parts of the world, but also you're able to provide some real tangible support for people through platforms like this who are members of parliament or at least who are seeking to break into politics from the continent, where it's much more difficult for people there, you know that it is for instance for people like myself or people in various other countries. So these are great networks because we're not going to be able to crack that ceiling, and we're not going to be able to really achieve some of these things, unless we've got like minded people who are willing to say, we want to lend support and we want to put our you know on the wheel, and we're willing to do so across the world because the project is bigger than us. It's bigger than your country. It is actually just a global project that needs to, that needs to take over and then lastly, I think it's also important to work with these kind of organizations and tap into research, because ultimately the issue around women in political leadership, mustn't be about women that want to have a space to talk about their own issues, or a space that where we can talk about soft issues. So to be able to back the issue of gender equality and gender representation with real research was real hard facts and real research that shows that the more diverse your leadership is the better it is and the better you are at representing the people of your country. This is not about holding hands and being soft with one another and you know, sort of providing safe spaces for us to cry at the office. This is about real tangible issues that you can, you know, and real tangible research that we can put on the table to say, in political organizations, when parliaments and democratic institutions are diverse, they are better at their job. It is just as clear as that. And ultimately what it will also do is it will also allow us to contribute to legislation that can help us get to where we need to be so that the generation is incredibly important and I think that we've got to lean into it a lot more, and we've got to lean into some of the work that organizations are doing around the world, so that we're not to work in silos. Exactly through where I couldn't agree more. And Ambassador vinegar, you've had a long career in the Foreign Service, which is another space where women need to be, you know, need to be absolutely present and can you talk about how you've engaged with women's groups and women's rights organizations and their work. Thank you. Well, I would say that women's, women's organizations and feminist movements, they are, they are really key, key player in, in Finland as well and, and, and also for the foreign ministry, they are really important resource, I would say. And I argue that in a small society such as Finland, because our resources are so scarce, so we really need everybody so we need the expertise women's organizations can can provide when preparing legislation or preparing our positions to to international conferences. I think it's really a characteristic characteristic of Finnish society that we are used to kind of a multi stakeholder approach. And really, I mean, we are on very good terms with with each other. And, and we have a really powerful women's movements in Finland. And one example I would like to give is that the National Council of Women of Finland just celebrated the 110th anniversary this September. And yesterday, 6th of December, we had our national day, and it was our 104th Independence Day. So the women's movement is older than our independence. And I think it shows something about about Finland and, and is one of the explanations to the fact that Finland was the first country to grant full political rights to to women, even before our independence actually. So, so very close cooperation with women's organizations and feminist movements and I'm really grateful for that. And that's a fantastic achievement. We like to hear those kind of statistics in this space. I'll turn now to some of the questions that have been coming in on the Q&A, and I certainly encourage others to please contribute to the discussion as well. Ambassador Vinika, you spoke about education as one of the real ways to start to address the challenge of bringing women into the political space. One of the questions we have is about, I mean, I guess, when do you start? Do you start in secondary schools, trying to think about that, that age of girls. And this is something that we've been speaking about at Westminster Foundation for democracy, democracy as well. You know, how do the girls that we educate turn into the political leaders of tomorrow. I wonder if you could comment on that investor. I think it's necessary to start as early as possible. And here I would once again like to refer to early childhood education. It's possible to start already there. I think it's necessary to start already there if you want to really address the harmful stereotypes. Of course, already primary school, there is some education there, secondary school, history, social studies. But what is also hugely important, and I think has played a tremendous role in Finland, is the power of role models. Because, well, we had, well, our Prime Minister, Sanna Marin, who led very female dominated government, actually has said that her inspiration for politics was the fact that when she was young, we had female president, our former president, Tharia Hallonen. So young girls got the idea that the president is a woman. Like for my generation, there was one president who used to serve several terms. And he was the president for Finland in those days. But for younger generations, Mrs. Tharia Hallonen has been a huge role model. And I think now we are also in a wonderful situation talking about statistics that of the 19 cabinet ministers, 12 women at the moment. So I'm quite proud of that. And I'm sure that this will serve as some kind of education as such as well. Thank you, Ambassador. And certainly that point about role models or certainly the work of those before us to bring some of the, as you said before, Sivive, the sidelined issues that tends to be gender equality issues tend to be to the sidelined issues and the work that's been done by yourself and others to bring it into the mainstream and looking at those who have come before. Would you like to speak about about that? Absolutely. Look, I mean, I think, you know, the having representation for women in politics is was quite important. And I think that of course, you know, that is why we're talking about why it's important to attract to make the vocation attractive to women, so that they too want to be able to step into political leadership and change things. Because I suppose it then it becomes a cycle that the more women they are in politics and the more women who rise to prominent positions in political parties, then the more women would be able to want to be part of those organizations. And I think when it comes to particularly younger, younger girls and younger women in school, I think what's really important there, as Ambassador said, particularly around education, is that when we, when society raises young, confident women who don't really harbor the feelings of inadequacy into their adult life, then you are able to cultivate them to be leaders in whatever industry. And that's important because, and I'm glad that the world is moving towards that direction of being able to cultivate a culture of confidence amongst young girls because that's the only way that we're going to be able to have young women who will put up their I want to lead industries. I can lead political parties I can lead parliament sense so that it is the ambassadors absolutely right that it's absolutely crucial to start at a young age, but it's also equally important to not just simply sideline, or at the very take young girls aside to to to indoctrinate these kind of this kind of thinking, it's equally important to teach young men about the importance of an equal world, because the reason why we are battling with a boys club mentalities in political parties in Parliament is because men have not made the shift. And unless they make the shift, the toxic culture in politics is not going to change the space is not going to be conducive. The issues we were talking about gender based violence sexual harassment, they will remain fringe issues, until we change the culture that women that men are also existing in. And so those two things are important to happen concurrently teaching young girls about the space in the world, but also teaching young men about the space that they need to occupy equally with women in this and in industries, wherever they may end up. So that we can be able to say, when we run political parties together, that it's not because I'm a woman that I'm elected, it's because I am objectively excellent. And unless that can be accepted. And, you know, we're still going to have a hard time. Ours is not. We shouldn't be occupied with the business of proving to people that we are just as good. And that's why that that kind of work needs to happen very early in children's lives, so that they may be able to understand that and that we're not dealing with difficult characters and misogyny earlier later on in life, when these kind of cultures have been indoctrinated and are much harder to rid us off. I very much agree with you see VV and we've got a couple of questions in the chat and the Q&A about about shifting that needle and perhaps one of the ways that there's a suggestion that there's, there's, you know, there's lots of opportunities for example and ask it to vote and there's a lot of training in leadership academies, but how can we widen these opportunities to encourage women who are from perhaps lower socioeconomic backgrounds or not, you know, not elite backgrounds from diverse backgrounds to become active and and eventually run for I think that's a massive issue and I think it was mentioned earlier about the intersectional intersectionality of the issues facing women and preventing women from thriving from entering politics and from thriving in that in that in that in that space. I mean, whether it is women of color, whether it is women rural women, particularly in countries like ours, where there's a massive divide between women who reside in cities like myself and women who are locked out of economic opportunities and in rural areas, and do you flatten that playing field so that you can attract the various diversity, or at least the various inputs that they make. And I think again it goes back to what I mentioned around changing organizational cultures, because unless we are able to say how are we women to run for less, how are we, how does your candidate selection look like, what are some of the issues also what are some of the key things you look like when you're looking at candidate selection, do you are you looking at leadership track record, are you looking at whether somebody is is fluent in English or not. And some of those things can be exclusionary. And that's why we've got to infiltrate at the highest level of decision making echelons and political parties in particular, so that we can change the standard at which people are judged by. So we can say if a woman, or anyone has proven track record that may not look like what you know that in itself is an indication that they can be make a solid contribution, either in parliament, or in local government councils. And so these are some of the tangible things I was talking about that we can start to shift candidate selection. We can start to look at what Maria said earlier on, but how do we encourage and inspire women to get into political leadership. It's not about providing a little lounge and parliament for women to cry. It's about changing tangible things. And it's about making sure that we change legislation and we remove the hindrances. And then I'll follow up with a question about international networks and knowing that Finland's got an incredible track record and supporting this work around the world, but I'll let you come in on that question as well. I just wanted to say that I couldn't agree more with this. I mean, I think it was myself who mentioned the intersectional approach, but really women's different kind of women's groups have to be included. There are women in all the diversity and I mentioned already women with disabilities, but then of course also, for instance, women from the LGBTIQ plus community, that's also very important. So the parties should be very inclusive and I mean it's not, sometimes you have to kind of head hand for representatives from these different groups, but you really have to do it to lead by example. Thank you. Thank you, Ambassador. We've got a question in the chat about about the role of international networks and how we can better support these networks but also the role of men. I mean, both of you have spoken about how men, you know, can be allies, but there also needs to be a cultural shift in the space that legitimizes men's experiences and how to shift that think about women as being part of the human experience. And looking at your points to be made that this is a universal issue, rather than just a women's issue. So maybe I can start with you, Ambassador Vinicurin, on international networks to support women in politics and how we could bolster that but also how we can work with men in those networks. Well, international networks are of course hugely important and I think that many political parties have their own international networks and they have women's organizations within them, but as you said, working with men and boys is really, really crucial gender equality cannot be only women's issue and I think that, I mean, we all know the term all male panel, but actually it's as detrimental as all male panelist is to have only all female panel. So I would really encourage everybody to invite also men to even to this kind of discussions if possible, but it's not easy. I mean, it's also my experience that different events on gender equality, it's so often preaching to the converted, so to say. But of course there are some excellent male colleagues in my ministry, for instance, and otherwise in the Finnish society and the culture is changing, but this is one of the biggest challenges I think of gender equality work in general, how to really involve women and boys and and therefore I think for instance this he for she initiative that that's the UN last some years ago was was very important. Thank you. Thank you. You would like to come in. Yeah, I mean, you know, we had, as Ambassador said, I mean, in political parties or parliaments or countries have their own sort of international networks that they rely on, but I think they crucially important for various reasons. And one I think because of the support that international networks can provide for people. I mean I've spoken at platforms where I said I mentioned earlier, where people in women in my own continent, who are coming from countries that are far more, you know, non receptive to the issue, or at least to the idea of non-contesting political power, but they are able to have the conversations and meet up with other women who come from similar countries or come from countries that have already made the strides, and that in my view were able to essentially really empower them to be able to say let me take some lessons back to my own country or in my own circumstances. They also good for fundraising purposes really because ultimately running, particularly for those people who have to run individual political campaigns can be incredibly costly. Another reason why this can be a massive hindrance. A lot of my colleagues on the continent have to often fundraise for themselves and have to, you know, raise the money to be able to run either an internal election or an election within the country's elections. And so those things are also quite important because it gives you a network that you can tap into like-minded people who believe in the project that is bigger than all of us and who can really assist you with that kind of work. It's also just a very practical example of why these kind of networks are incredibly important. And then lastly, I think that also, you know, we've got to be able to also contribute to the discussions at the international networks and platforms like these ones. And I think that the more people and the more diverse some of these discussions are, the more we're able to move the discussion forward, about to say, well, you know, maybe 15 years ago we were talking about how, or 10 years ago we were talking about how to create support for politicians who decide to have an election. But maybe in five years' time we'll talk about how it's incredibly important for institutions to be completely open and encouraging to people of diverse backgrounds, trans women, women who have been otherwise, you know, alienated. There's a symbiotic relationships with the international networks where they can be greatly beneficial to people who are wanting to advance democracies in their own countries. But at the same time, we contribute to the international conversation by saying, this is currently where we are. This is currently some of the challenges that are happening on the ground. I know for a fact in South Africa, we're nowhere near talking about issues like, for instance, like I said, issues that trans women would face in trying to come into political office. And so those are the kind of things that we are only going to be able to move forward if we're able to lean on each other in that way. Thanks. One of the, there's quite a few questions in the chat on on on the Q&A about harassment, violence and harassment of women in the political space. I think this does tie in a little bit of with changing the culture that we've both been speaking about, you know, changing the culture of the organizations, the political organizations that you work with, and changing the culture of what's accepted as leadership. And, and probably does link a little bit about allyship and how men can be allies in this space. Would you like to comment on that TV way about facing harassment, but and how to address it. Absolutely. And, and, you know, it's, you would be, and I think this is a global phenomenon that, you know, women are still very much sexually harassed in, in, in workplaces, not just in politics but in various other industries as well. And, and, you know, if you look at one looks at the international, the global conversations that have been happening, whether it is the me to movement, or conversations around consent, consider conversations around mutual respect in the workplace. And you realize by just the visceral reaction that some of our own colleagues would have to those reactions, or those conversations that it is because they refuse to have an internal conversations with themselves. They know that they too have been perpetrators of violence against women, and whether or not it was overt or whether or not it was through a comment. And so it's still something that is very, that is quite overt in politics. Whether it's just it's sexism where, you know, women are allocated portfolios of, you know, women, children and people with disabilities, or they only allocated portfolios of social development, not to say that those portfolios are not important, but it's it speaks to the boxing women in a very particular way. Why are not women made secretaries of defense of ministers of police, and that kind of, and that kind of sort of culture. So that's the one thing the one thing it can, it can be about boxing women. And boxing can be just experiencing sexual harassment from your own colleagues. We still in 2021 will have people who will make overt sexual advances to women in the workplace as actual colleagues. And that kind of that kind of culture can't be changed by if we have these conversations on our own. And that's why I agree with ambassador earlier. The conversations can't be limited to just ask women don't rape themselves, women are not harassing themselves, they are being harassed, they're being raped, they are being killed. And therefore, the conversation needs to go farther than just saying the women's league will have a seminar about the safety of women in the workplace. We need to have a parliamentary debate about how men, women are all going to contribute. We're going to change the preconceived ideas about where women fit in, and we're going to change this thing together. And so that's why for me, the mainstreaming of women's issues is an absolute importance, because then we're not going to shift the needle, until we make sure that those things are in parliament, they debated in Congresses, people are running, I want to see one day a colleague of mine, running an internal campaign about saying I want a male colleague saying I want to read, you know, our party processes, or our internal legal processes of the kind of sexism that we see. I want to see that kind of stuff. And I don't want that to be limited to just female colleagues and so really mainstreaming that kind of conversation is incredibly important. And that's the only way we're going to stop this whole thing of sexual harassment, sexism in the workplace is when men realize that it's just as important that they become champions of a truly equal work environment, and not just women having the discussion about themselves. Thank you to agree. Ambassador. Oh, sorry, I think you're still neat. Oh, Ambassador, you might still, oh yeah, now you're okay. Yes, yes, yes. Yes. Yes, of course, me to movements for instance has been extremely important. And I think that in Finland in most workplaces and especially within within the government and for instance in in the Ministry for Foreign Affairs there is really zero tolerance for sexual exploitation and harassment so the mechanisms in place are quite effective. So lots of lots of people have been removed from their posts after after having been caught off sexual exploitation, even in the foreign ministry actually, but then then I would like to follow up on the point that Siviva mentioned concerning the segregation of political positions because this has been a challenge also also in Finland and I think that our parliament made a study, study on that during during the previous previous parliamentary term, how men and women are divided in different committees of the parliament and of course there you could really see the segregation that the so called hard politics is still very much the realm of men like like to defend foreign affairs to some extent, and so on but I think there has been some positive, positive developments after that study was made and and now during this parliamentary term, it's it's already more, more balanced and and we are very aware of this question of course segregation of educational labour market in general is a problem in Finland, but but we have had the first female Minister of Defence in the world for instance and and and we have we have women in in in so called hard hard hard politics and as Minister of Police was just mentioned by by Siviva, our Minister of the Interior who is in charge of police in Finland, she is or was a young youngish youngish woman but she just left for maternity leave which I also would like to flag that in in Finland it's it's possible for ministers to to have maternity maternity leave and and then return back to back to the government actually there will be a reshuffle in her party she will not return to the same same post but but this is actually her own own own will but but this is this is possible in Finland. Thank you. And I think still a challenge here in the UK that we're talking about maternity leave folks in the midst of parliament and if the executive. I think thinking about the summit for democracy and the discussion that will happen tomorrow in the coming days. There's such a wide range of areas that that need addressing and I think some really practical steps that you've put forward on how on how women and the need for women to be represented and how how we can reach out to those that are that are marginalized but also importantly how to bring women's issues into the mainstream. I mean it's not just women's issues were found and some of the links in the chat to reports that both demo Finland and WFD have worked on the last couple of years to drive the evidence that shows that when when women political leaders have the space to, to be in positions like yours ambassador and like yours in way and sitting like Maria is that we find that real issues of gender equality are addressed and the benefits and who that benefits are not just women and girls it's certainly boys and men it's the whole of society and we have healthier lives, we have more equal spaces, we have opportunities, and certainly more peaceful societies. And the last question before we end. And sorry I'll also mention the discussion about cultural change because I think this is really important that political parties and political institutions themselves need to be spaces where women want to be present. And how does needs to be a lot of self reflection there about how to create those spaces, so that women join us from other sectors, and certainly that other sectors are where persons like yourselves and leadership positions can connect up and work with certainly the civil society rights movements. So the last question and I hope this is a positive question. And it's about this issue again of cultural change within political parties and race by all of you and the points of working with men. And one of our questions says that the moment it feels that we're a little bit dependent on the goodwill of male leadership for this. Is there any different approaches that we could be more effective or how can we claim that space to be great. Okay. Look, I take the criticism and I think it's absolutely apt. I think that the, there's often almost as though we are asking men to hold space for us I mean it's great that we can have allies in our male colleagues but ultimately this is not a negotiation. And the fact that we want equal representation of women in politics and in leadership is not a negotiation with our male counterparts. It's not permission seeking. It's something that is an imperative and it's something that's important. And this is something that has been backed up by research. As I said earlier it's something that's been backed up by research that organizations are intrinsically better at their jobs when they are diverse. And so this is not a matter of asking the goodwill of men to allow us in show us a little you know show us a bit of kindness and give us a small space at the table. We've got to demand that if we care about our countries we've got to demand that organizations be diverse. If we say that we care about industries and what and how they're able to perform. If we care about how parliaments are able to do their jobs, then we've also got to be able to demand that more and more people who come from various backgrounds be included in the decision making table. Otherwise then we are simply being passengers and almost passive participants in our own countries in our own democracies. And I think a lot more women and a lot more people don't want to be passive sort of passengers in sort of a democracy of their own country. And as I said earlier I mean I take the criticism and it's true. We've got to be a lot more forceful but we also got to as I said, there is evidence that backs all of this up. This is not a matter of saying 5050 looks nice. It's simply about evidence based that when organizations are diverse, they are intrinsically better at what they do. And so therefore we've got to look at legislation, we've got to look at policies, we've got to look at what I said earlier about how organizations are doing the how they're attracting talent into their own ranks, how that talent is then is then vetted and how that organizational culture is either repelling or attracting people to it. All of these things are practical examples of how women who are already in politics can be instrumental in making sure that more and more women are included in political leadership. Ambassador, thank you very much Stevie we couldn't agree more and I think those are such such a good call to action for us to take away. But before we finish ambassador, you know Finland has such an excellent track record as you said in a long history of women's voices being present. So likewise does it feel like in Finland there's a case to be made that we've that women have claimed the space already that women are seen as equal participants and drivers of change and therefore legitimate in the political space. Yes, I would say so that in Finland we don't feel that we are any longer dependent on the goodwill of men but of course, I mean we are not a gender, fully gender equal society yet there are lots of challenges, violence against women, gender pay gaps, digital gender divide, I mean you just name it. But I think that we have realized as a small and originally poor society like 100 years ago, we have realized that we have to harness the resources of the whole society. I mean Finland couldn't afford to use the resources of only half of the society. And I would say that our gender equality is kind of combination of structural factors, all these conducive factors like social security, childcare and so on, but then also some really strong politicians, strong personalities like I mentioned, our former president Tadija Halonen one example that I always personally like to mention is that when she was Minister for Foreign Affairs because before becoming president she was Minister for Foreign Affairs, she was quite well known for her willingness to let's say not to accept the proposals for appointments that came to human resources department, she sent them back and told that give me a female candidate and I think that the fact that we have now 47% of our ambassadors, our heads of mission abroad are women, I think this is partly results from this way of behaving, this very determined way of behaving, so you need to have some strong personalities but then also the structures. Thank you Ambassador. Thank you Simi and certainly thank you Marie and thank you all for joining us today we are running out of time. But I certainly take some of the words that you've just said, Ambassador that we as a society cannot afford to leave women out. We still a lot more to be done to bring us into the conversation but also to bring us legitimately into the decision making space. We've heard about a lot of the ways that women are fundamentally changing the face of international relations and politics. And hopefully that we agree that this is an international challenge and an international endeavor. And also, as you said it takes a lot of determination and I thank you Ambassador and thank you Simi and thank you Maria for your determination, the claiming your space. And we really look forward to seeing some of these discussions picked up tomorrow in the summit for democracy event which colleagues have posted in the chat. And hopefully into the next year of action on advancing the status of women as it does advance the status of our democracies and that women certainly as political leaders are essential for democracies to thrive. So thank you all very very much and hope to continue the conversation online and elsewhere.