 So, welcome to yet another episode of China is not our enemy. Thank you so much for your amazing engagement. We're having successes and you know one of the best news we have as we've been able to push the let's go to war with China folks out of getting high level appointments. But we can we hear in the Biden administration that there's, we haven't, you know, totally cleared the way but Senator carries in there really using his voice to say we're not going to get to take care of the climate if we can't be cooperative with China so we're we're happy there's at least one voice in there. And we're thrilled that you joined us today. I'm very excited for this conversation. You know, as we continue to dismantle the anti China rhetoric, led by those in power in the US. We're constantly excited to find more partners in peace, we know that to make have an effect, and to get to peace and unravel this cold war that's being drive driven towards China we have to have a big tent. So, on this episode of China is not our enemy. I'll be joined with Rob Kajora, who's the founder of peace for Okinawa Coalition. Okinawa has long relationships with the US and China. And so I think he's, he's from there and we'll be able to tell us more about what that looks like. You know, as we've seen from the US war in Iraq, always these wars involve more than the country. And Iraq has proved to destabilize the entire Middle East and this growing Cold War on China is also going to affect the entire region. So, I'm using you to Robert Kajora. He is a native Lou Tao, and President of Peace for Okinawa Coalition. He's a regular speaker at the United Nations and other places advocating for Indigenous rights and self determination, and has appeared in numerous media publications. BBC World People's Daily China, South China Morning Post. Robert's petition to stop illegal construction of the new military base in Hinako, Okinawa has over 212,000 signatures on it. So he's also an amazing organizer. His PhD dissertation at Manchester Metropolitan University is on historical Lou Tao and China relations. So we're very excited to have you in conversation with us today, Robert. And I want to start by asking you, you know, tell us more about you. And not only who you are in your relationship to your country, but also why you started a peace collective. Hi, Jody. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. Yes, I am Robert Kajora. I am native Luchuan, also known as Okinawan. I'm I am mixed race. I'm also native Hawaiian. And I do split time between both Okinawa and Hawaii. I am founder and president of the Peace for Okinawa Coalition. We are a Luchuan group founded and led by millennial Luchuan. We have offices in both Okinawa and Hawaii. For those who are not aware, Hawaii does have a large Luchuan or Okinawan population, at least 50,000. We have also been working very closely for years now with native Hawaiians and other Pacific Islanders and various nations and people groups from around the world who are in a similar position as Luchu in terms of advocating for demilitarization and peace and trying to restore our de facto independence. So yes, I am I am native Luchuan, and we started this group in order to advocate for our independence and demilitarization, but also to spread and promote Luchuan culture, history, language and issues, especially to a worldwide audience, because you don't see that a lot from actual Luchuans. A lot of times when people write articles or books or whatnot about Okinawan, it's written or produced by Americans or Japanese, not by Okinawans. So we really want to get Okinawan voices heard to an international audience. Wow, that's fascinating. I mean, painful. But here you are, people, and your stories not being told by yourself. Yeah, I don't think enough of us realize that and your work for self-determination. So as you look out at this growing war, Cold War on China, maybe take us into what is the relationship of Okinawans with China over probably but centuries, I would think. Yeah, so Luchu is geographically located very close to China. We share an ocean border. A lot of Americans have this misconception that Luchu or Okinawa is is geographically very close to Japan. That's not really true. Okinawa is actually very close to China and the Philippines. The largest city, Naha, is actually closer to Manila, Pyongyang, Seoul, and many major Chinese cities such as Shanghai than it is to Tokyo. So historically Luchu has always had a very close and friendly relationship with China, with Korea and Southeast Asia as well, but especially with China. And this dates back thousands of years to informal relations, even before written records. However, in 1372, Luchu and China did start a formal relationship bilateral relationship. This was this is commonly known in English as a tributary relationship. And this term is very problematic because when Westerners hear that term tributary relationship, they immediately think that China oppressed Luchu. That China forced Luchuans to pay tribute and that China invaded and bullied Luchu. The encyclopedia Britannica, if you look up their writings about Okinawa or Luchu, it says that China invaded and subjugated Luchu around the 14th century, which is not true at all. The historical sources are very clear on this. There is no evidence whatsoever of China ever having invaded or harmed Luchu in any way. So this relationship was actually consensual and mutually beneficial. It was a relationship between equals, although China was considered slightly more equal than Luchu simply because of its enormous size and wealth. Luchu is quite small in China, is one of the largest nations on the planet. But China always treated Luchu very well. So the way it would work is Luchu would pay tribute to China. And in return, China would give many gifts to Luchu. And China always gave more to Luchu than what they received in order to demonstrate their vast wealth and power and generosity. So this was China's obligation as the greater power. And so Luchuans were extremely happy with this arrangement. So they sought to pay tribute to China as often as possible. So financially this was a losing arrangement for China because China had to give more than what they received. But the benefit for China lay in prestige. So the prestige they received by having Luchuans pay tribute to them helped to stabilize China's internal affairs as well as foreign affairs. So it was a mutually beneficial arrangement. And there was, there's no historical evidence of China forcing or oppressing Luchuans in any way. So that's fascinating, like how the history is written, who did it benefit to write the history as, you know, incorrectly. And what are the relationships with like Japan or the United States or other powers? Yeah, so prior to the 17th century, Luchu had a positive and friendly relationship with Japan as well. However, in 1609 the Satsuma clan of Japan, which was Japan's largest and most warlike clan, decided to invade Luchu. Luchuans fought valiantly, but they ultimately lost. And so Satsuma forced Luchu to pay tribute to them. And so this was the start of Japanese oppression towards Luchuans. However, Luchu continued to maintain its independence until 1879. At that time, after the major restoration, Japan began to industrialize and militarize in a Western sense, and they wanted to collect colonies similar to the Western powers. So they again invaded and forcefully annexed Luchu against the will of Luchuans. Of course, Japan did similar things to much of the rest of Asia and the Pacific. During the Battle of Okinawa in 1945, Japan purposely built an inordinate amount of military presence on Okinawa Island, which is the central and largest and most populated island in Luchu. They did this with the expressed intent to sacrifice Okinawans in order to save Japan, the Japanese. And so during the three month battle of Okinawa, roughly one fourth to one third of the Okinawan population was killed. It is said that every Okinawan lost family members. I lost many family members. It really devastated the almost the entire island. And to this day, it's a very difficult issue for Okinawans to think about and talk about. Well, can we can we just stop there for a second because you've described like the laying of a trap that obviously the trap laid then the US gets into it and really causes all this to happen by not understanding it to trap laid and doesn't think about the people who live on the island. As an independent people, at least that's what I'm hearing you say. Yes, however, during the 19th century, Luchu and the US actually signed a treaty. So the US was well aware of the history. They were they the US recognized Luchu as a sovereign and independent country with that treaty. In fact, as a gift, Luchu gave a stone limestone to the US, which was included in the Washington monument. This was a symbol of their friendship between Luchu and the US. The treaty was signed in 1854. So the idea that the US was just not aware of Luchu as an independent country that's it's it's false. So they were well aware in 1945. Obviously, the US defeated Japan, they occupied Okinawa and all of the Luchu islands. At that time around that time. The other colonies began to decolonize and began to restore their independence, except for Luchu, because the US military decided to keep Luchu for itself to use for bases. For decades, Luchuans were under direct US military rule with no form of democracy or self governments at all. And of course Luchuans strongly protested this, especially because of all the problems that the US military causes in Luchu. So in 1972, the US gave Luchu to Japan without a vote from Luchuans, which is illegal under international law, and it's a major human rights violation. And so since 1972, Luchu has been under joint US and Japanese occupation. You're muted, you're muted. That makes me very sad. So, what was the relationship that continued with China through all this so there's the relationship with China then Japan takes in. Is there any other relationship that continued with China in the time when it was occupied by Japan and then the US and now joint occupation. However, you know, obviously Luchu being under Japanese and US occupation with no form of self government, the formal bilateral relations between Luchu and China obviously, you know, have stopped for now anyway. But informal relations, yes, of course, have continued. China has always recognized the history of Luchu being an independent country until Japan forcefully annexed it. The People's Republic of China, including the Communist Party of China has always recognized Luchuans right to self determination. They've always said that Luchuans deserve the right to self determination, which Japan and the United States have never done. So actually, China has has actually treated Luchu much better even in the 20th and 21st centuries. So what is what is your concern right now about Okinawa and the growing Cold War and China. Yeah, so obviously this is a huge concern for us. We have no desire whatsoever to get mixed up in this Cold War or whatever you want to call it. We've never agreed to be part of Japan or the United States. We've never agreed to host US or Japanese military forces and Luchu, the majority of Luchuans want the US and Japanese military forces out. Okay, we have nothing to do with what Japan or America's aggressions or foreign affairs with with any country, and especially not with China because of the history of peace and friendship between Luchu and China. So what what steps can be taken to, you know, a raise this in a higher deciple, you know that I mean you've got a lot of people signed on to your petition so you're obviously a really good organizer and there's a lot of passion. How, how can we help because having Okinawa have self determination and moving the military out of their benefits of people but it also is one last, you know, place where the side wars can happen which are the worst as as you've described where a quarter of a country can be killed and it's just not even on the in the history books. Yeah, so what code pink has already been a strong supporter of us. We're very thankful for code pink support. For example, in January 2019, we had a press conference and a rally in front of the White House in Washington DC code pink was a big supporter for us in that. So we look forward to continue working with code pink in our in our mutual endeavors. So we are working at the United Nations and with the international community at large to help restore Luchu's de facto independence. Of course, it's it's not easy. It's it is complicated. So we appreciate code pink and and other Americans who have shown us support for us on our website piece for Okinawa.org. There are various ways people can can get involved. So I encourage people to check that out. And so, you know, in in the relationship between Okinawans in China, do you feel like there's still most Okinawans feel that there's a harmonious relationship with China and they would be concerned about this Cold War. Absolutely, absolutely. And this was actually proven the United States government itself is aware of this. We know this via WikiLeaks, the US government had some internal documents in which they, they admit that the majority of Okinawans do not see China as a threat and have a positive or at least a neutral view of China. So even, for example, not how city maintains a very close sister city relationship with Fuzhou city in China, which historically Fuzhou was the most important city in China in terms of China, Chinese Luchu relations. The relationship continues even to this day. Fuzhou has helped build or sponsor various projects in Luchu they've built a beautiful Chinese garden in downtown Naha they've built other the famous dragon stone pillars in Naha. So, the majority of Luchuans simply do not see China as a threat, have a positive or neutral view of China and certainly have no desire to start any type of conflict towards China. And so, I also, if you could just bring us a little into Okinawa like what have been the costs of to the island and the people you've described how many lost their lives but health costs are like to be that inundated with so much militarism, what, what has the island experienced that we have been hurt so greatly by US and Japanese militarism in Luchu. They overstated the damage they've done in terms of economic suppression in terms of environmental health crime. There are just so many problems that come with this ongoing military presence. For instance, the military takes up 15% of Okinawa's land and around 30% of Okinawa's arable land, yet it contributes just 5% to the Okinawan economy, creating a huge deficit. So, this is economic suppression. Again, it's a major human rights violation, dependent the US are suppressing the Okinawan economy to try to prevent us from, from regaining our, you know, our self determination and our independence. So, well, thank you so much for sharing all this depressing information. But, you know, it's, I have to say, everything you've said is heartbreaking, and I'm so sorry. But, you know, for us it's to, you know, to look at this example of the A the cost of war, the cost of militarism, and the cost of having, and the beauty of having a relationship that honors all. So, I appreciate you telling us that story and bringing us aware. I want to follow you how what's your Twitter handle I we were able to put in the chat, your, your, your, oh, here we go. Rob k a j i w a r a. So, we should all follow you and raise up your stories and engage with you. And we look forward to continuing our engagement, continuing to raise up the costs of war that have been born in Okinawa as as the canary in this coal mine. And that so many lessons to learn from you. Thank you for all your work. No, thank you. Thank you for having me. All right.