 Hello, Carterson. Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much. I'm glad to be here. So I've really enjoyed your book and I want to set it up because I felt the first few sentences were probably some of the most powerful writing for what is about to come and invokes such emotions. And I read a lot, but I, this, I'm just going to go ahead and read it. So, warning, going to sleep on Sunday will cause Monday. Please note that staying awake all night does not prevent Monday. Tried that, didn't work. You're correct. And there is no cure. Now, very powerful, and that says multiple ideas and concepts that are going to be present in this book. Number one, that dreaded feeling that we have all come to feel at one time or another, which rolls into the idea of mental models that you've put in this book. And then also everyone, there's so many books that come out telling you to get out of your job to run, get it. That relationship isn't working. Get out. That job isn't working for you. Get out. Your family members are giving you a hard time and it. However, this takes a different approach. You've gotten your degree. You've worked really hard to get this job. It's time for you to take responsibility and make this job work for you. And I love this. And the reason I love it is because I had grown up in a household where Sunday to Monday was an incredibly depressing time. Now, much like AJ's father, my dad worked in a factory. And so it was off on the weekends. Monday started drudgery and the grind again. So it started with his mood and how we felt it over the day of Sunday, how it dampened, how it gotten worse, how things seemed to have darkened. And that mental model of watching my dad be grudgingly have to go to work, trying to escape it, trying to forget about Monday. Well, of course, that was only passed on to me. And I spent a large portion of my teenage years and my 20s, I am 46 now, and my 20s trying to escape that feeling. The idea of having to get up on Monday morning to go to work. To me, because of how I grew up, seemed like a prison sentence. It seemed like something that you would want to escape. If you can avoid that, then you have succeeded. So of course, in my 20s, I had spent my time and I, as you can see the amps and stuff behind me, I spent my time working in rock and roll clubs and music in North Carolina and Chapel Hill. And during that time, I felt that I had did it because every night, every day that I worked at the club was a weekend evening. And I made it so that I didn't have responsibility in the model that I was putting so much energy in escaping. So why don't we lay this out for everyone else? Yeah, so the first thing I will say is wherever you go, there you are. Which is why escaping fundamentally doesn't work because you show up. So what I think is so interesting in your story, Johnny, is that you built it so there was quote, no responsibility. But I would challenge you on that a little bit because you had to show up. You had to support the band or whatever you were doing. But the connection there was you had reframed this concept of work as fun. I'm hanging out. I'm with my friends. This is at a bar. And so you had created a mental framework that work worked really well for you. And I also think that given the context of what's going on today, the reality for most of us is we can't escape. There aren't a lot of escape that helps for us. So it's about getting really clear on what you can do to make your work work for you so that you can find that fun, that love, then that happiness you want. It certainly worked. But to a certain degree and for a certain amount of time before age and just time and the other things that I wanted to do in my life started to become important. And I had to figure out a way of going about them with still trying to play this this game in my mind. And it didn't end until I faced that game and which come later in your book, which was reframing how I was looking at Mondays. Why does fear keep so many of us miserable in our jobs and keep us from taking the control that we need of our lives and that dreaded responsibility that Johnny was talking about? So fear keeps you stuck in the known. So our brains don't like the unknown. So we'll stick with the music theme. Think about when you hear your favorite song on the radio and the lyrics. You can sing along, everybody's happy. But when there's a new song, your brain's like, I don't know what's next. I can't figure out the pattern. Well, that's one of the problems with fear is that your brain can't figure out what's going to really happen. And we like to stay stuck in the status quo because it's easy. It's safe is what we know. And it's also creating a situation for you that doesn't work. And what was your journey to begin reframing this in your own life? Because as the book starts, you were in that exact same position dreading that Monday morning. I did. I talk about in the book that I worked for a boss. I think I used a not very nice word, but he was a micromanager and he made Steve Carell in the office look great. And it was also the worst job, cold sales calls trying to fill 10 by 10 booth space for a conference. So I had this jerk and a terrible job and I had to pay my bar bill and rent. So I couldn't quit. I didn't think I had any marketable skills. So I had to reframe and look at how can you shape this job? So one, that you can develop some new skills. And two, what I had to step back and look at is what was the purpose of my work? So if I couldn't figure out the meaning and value for myself, the company had been in existence. We actually made money. We were doing something in the world that people saw as valuable. What was it? And what I realized is that most of my clients were female first time business owners and that this 10 by 10 booth space gave them a very cost effective way to start their business and reach a targeted audience. That was something I could get up in the morning for helping those women. I think that's such an important lesson because many of us, when we're in that dreaded position, we just think about ourselves and it becomes overwhelming and we don't often think about, well, what is the purpose of the company that I work for? And who am I actually serving in this role that I'm in? And the other part that the book really points out is our relationship with our boss frames that for us as well. You know, feeling micromanaged, feeling checked in on constantly all of those movements. Well, it does kind of keep you frozen in that state of fear that I'm going to do something wrong or I'm not going to benefit the team. And of course that impacts our productivity in the negative. And many bosses don't realize this, of course, in their micromanaging of people. And one of the things that I remember feeling distinctly when I was working in the cancer lab was just feeling underappreciated at work. And my boss was very results driven. And if we were missing the mark, we heard about it. When we made the mark, when we got the results, very rarely did we hear about it. It was on to the next piece of work. It was on to the next part of the experiments to get the paper published. And it was very hard for me early on in my career to really get my feet under me and feel confident in my work because all I got was the negative feedback. And of course, if that's all you're getting, then it's easy for you to look around and say, man, I'm not doing a good job. I'm underperforming. And you point out that there are ways for us to create opportunities for that positive feedback to not just make it the one way negative feedback street that many of us are experiencing. What are some of those strategies that we can use to create that positive feedback loop? So the first one is to ask for the feedback that you want. So if there is a skill you want to develop or if there is a new opportunity and you know that you do have a gap, you've got to ask and be very specific around what it is you want. Give them an example of the type of feedback that you're looking for and make sure that you explain how to deliver it. I call it the CSEE feedback formula. And the key here with the ask is that helps you not trigger that social threat response of, uh-oh, they're about to tell me how awful I am. Because you've taken control, you've made the ask and you've not left it open-ended. Tell me about how I'm doing today. I mean, that's setting yourself on fire. I don't even want to go down that road. I mean, it's just terrifying. So if you can be really specific. The other thing too is do you know how you want to be appreciated? I mean, do you know what your needs are around recognition? Do you know what you need? Do you just need a thank you? Do you need an affirmation written on the wall? What is it that you actually need? Because you can't get that need met if you aren't clear. You know, I'm not so sure how your PhD researcher would take coming to him saying, hey, you know, when Adam Boyd would be great, I'll every now and then. But I do think you can frame it in terms of performance. And when I receive recognition, again, that specific recognition around something I did well, it allows me to replicate that and do it again and continue to elevate my performance. And it could definitely be scary at first asking for that feedback and especially framing it in that way. But it's also really empowering to your boss or your manager because it allows them to see that, hey, there's a lot of effort here. This is someone who wants to grow and improve. Those are all signals as a boss myself that I want to see in the people that work for me. Because that leads me to believe that they're invested in not only themselves and their growth, but in everything we're trying to do as a team. So if you're in the audience and you're thinking, man, that'd be a really tough conversation with my boss, I challenge you to push through that discomfort and do it because it's going to set a new method of communication and it's going to give your boss some clarity around that feedback that you need to perform well. And many of us don't tell our bosses that. We don't start the job saying, you know, I really need words of affirmation and group meetings or it'd be great on, you know, a once a week basis. If we had a check-in and you told me what I did really well, that'd be fantastic. We never set those ground rules. And then of course our bosses default to their method of communication and their method of feedback. And sadly, that's set culturally within the company too. I think something that also needs to be said there is if you're going to be brave enough to ask your boss for the feedback. Also, there's two parts that you're going to ask and then you're going to get it. And you need to be brave enough to just allow him to unload and tell him and tell you what the feedback is and the criticisms and listen to it because I will tell you from experience if you ask for the feedback and then you go to disqualify everything that your boss says or you make excuses for it, that'll probably be the last time that he gives you any feedback. In fact, you might be looking for a job after that. Yes, you do want to be open and receptive. That's right. You've got to be willing to receive, which is why being really intentional and specific about this very narrow, very specific thing that you want to know that will make it a little bit easier to digest. And I think a big piece of this is the follow-up as well. So you get the feedback, you now have to take action on that feedback. You can't be soliciting feedback and defaulting into old patterns and habits. You want to then go back, circle back and say, hey, I really took that feedback. This is what I did. Have you noticed an improvement? Keeping that clear line of communication, that's what top performers do. The people who are getting promoted, who are moving up the career ladder faster than you, they're communicating and setting that communication channel to get that feedback outside of waiting just for the yearly performance review or the quarterly review that all of us standardly go through. But instead, creating that communication with your boss is going to allow you to leapfrog others who might be doing better than you in their role, but their boss isn't seeing it because they don't have that communication going. That's the inside track. And if you see it, you need to be able to take it. It's that real-time specific. Don't let the time lag in the moment. It's how you're coached in sports. I ran in college and my coach was honest. I mean, it was constant feedback during our runs because that's how we got better because immediately we could shift and apply. So the other piece of this is to create the opportunity where you can do whatever it is you're trying to improve on, let's say maybe communicate more effectively in a presentation in front of your boss, ask for that feedback immediately after and then do it again and ask for the feedback again so you can have that real-time feedback. I think this lends itself to something else you were writing about where to be building up your self-confidence and a culture of self-compassion because it isn't easy to take that criticism. And if you're going to be open to it, if you're going to constantly put yourself in a position where you need to learn new things, open yourself up to some new experiences in order to make work a place that you're excited about coming into, you're going to find yourself fumbling around a lot. It's going to be difficult, but by cultivating some appreciation, some compassion and self-love, it's sort of building your confidence bank so you can take some of those hits because if you're in a challenging role, the hits are going to be coming. That means you're trying, that means you're moving past your current steady state and that means you're growing. And I would suggest, and there's really great research showing that that flow state where it's hard enough but not too easy is the optimal place for us to be where we find that happiness and fulfillment. So yes, you're going to stumble. Yes, you are. And in that you're stretching and growing and that's where I think you're going to continue to find that intellectual curiosity as well as that inner fulfillment engagement with your work. There was something we discussed a few interviews ago that goes really well here and it was a John Gottman had mentioned that for every bad interaction, you need five good ones. So to have this compassion, this self-love and this appreciation for everything that's going on, you're going to need the combat, the daily rough and tumble that life brings you just to continue moving forward with a smile on your face. And I talk about in the book that it's also hard because your brain has a negativity bias is programmed to look for, man, I really screwed that up or kind of didn't go well. And so we have to build that muscle and as you're talking about that self appreciation. So two roses and a thorn, you share two roses and a thorn at the end of your day works awesome. I love to have our coaching clients keep some type of visible, tangible symbol of past successes. So when you need to fill that well, you can go and see those. It could be emails. It could be notes, whatever it is, could be, you know, a signed contract for a great amount of money, but you've got that visible, tangible symbol. And then we all know that gratitude and reflection is a really powerful way to fill that well as well. Absolutely. And we talk a lot about just journaling and documenting the process as well, because we often don't see how far we've come. We only see the problems ahead. We don't look back to, you know, well, how was it the first month of my role and how was it the second year of my role? It's changed so much. And of course, the way business moves, the speed at which it moves, we're constantly forward facing, but it's important, especially if you feel that maybe this isn't been a great year for you. Take stock of, well, how did last year go in the year before that? And are you still growing those skills? Because unfortunately, and we've discussed this myth many a times on the show, we have this visual in our life that our career is just linear and up. And that's what we're taught in school. And yet we've had so many people on the show say that's not been my experience at all. I wish it was linear and up, but it's not the case. And this year, especially many of us are feeling that long plateau and that endless how long is this going to last? I'm not working from home. I don't even have all the social components to work and the enjoyment that I would get from interacting with my coworkers and it has become pretty monotonous for many of us. And that's why we are so encouraged to hear you write about journaling just as well because it's not just for growing your social skills in your career. You should be documenting how far you've come. Absolutely. Well, what do I want to celebrate? Where's an opportunity for growth? And what is the lesson I want to carry forward? I mean, you can do that in two minutes and jot it down really quickly. I would also suggest that the most effective leaders are radically self-aware. And this self-awareness does not come by always pushing forward. It's appalls, turn, look at, reflect, connect, desperate ideas, see trends, and then you turn around and start leading again. It's very difficult to, I think, really create breakthrough performance if you aren't willing to pause and analyze. I was going to say while you're stuck grinding it out, you're seeing things on Instagram and Facebook and everyone else getting these amazing breaks and these amazing things that are happening. Why don't I get these breaks? Where is my lucky day? Why am I the one that's always sitting here grinding these things out and beating myself up? It's so important that the touch from all those things and this is why journaling is so important because you're able to then look at your journey, look at your highlights, look where your progress is rather than comparing and contrasting to everyone else around you. I think when many of us hear self-awareness, we think, okay, yes, I need to know what all my weaknesses are. But it's also the other side of the coin is your strengths. And you write this, that your strengths are your professional gold. But many of us in our career, having got that feedback around our strengths, we're unclear of what our strengths are. So how can we excavate our strengths to find that gold to forge ahead? We can drop right back into journaling. So answering some core questions. Think about your best day at work. What was it? What were you doing? Who were you with? When people compliment you, what do they compliment you on? That's a really easy access point. But my favorite way to do it is the task and calendar list analysis. I love this stuff where you get to go and you look at your to-dos and you look at your calendar and you literally just do a gut check. This made me really happy, smiley face or check mark if you don't dig the smiley face. And then this stonk didn't like it, thumbs down minus. And then you create a list and you start to look at these love-to-do activities and ask yourself, does it matter who I do it with? Does it matter when I do it? Does it matter how I do it? And start to pull out from these core strengths, these core things that you cannot do. You really want to grow and develop. You are going to be so much more effective in your career if you play from your strengths than if you're always trying to shore up your opportunities for growth or your blind spots. This is where we can triple X your performance in half the time. But you've got to know what it is. And the other piece of this strength, I talk about it as a currency because this is what you bring to your company. This is what you are bringing. It's give and take here. And so you're giving this, so what do you want in return? Absolutely. You can ask if you don't know. And that's so important to get clarity around that. And many of us to your exact point and I fall into the same trap and focus so much on your weaknesses all of this time and effort and energy on trying to shore up your weaknesses when a tenth of that effort and energy on your strengths and doubling down is what is going to be that key to the big jumps in your career. Not the puttering along in the plateaus that we're feeling. Not to mention working on your weaknesses. That is the recipe for unhappiness. Sunday night scaries and just work sucks. So that's not what we're here to do. We want to be engaged and happy and the strengths are going to be the place where you are going to find greater fulfillment. I completely agree and I think it's such a valuable exercise no matter where you are in your career if you're just starting out or if you're advanced in your career and you're looking to take it to that next level. And having, again, once you've raised that self-awareness you can bring that into the questions with your boss around your performance and say, you know, I've really identified these strengths in myself, are you seeing the same thing? And what can I do to bring more of my strengths to be able to help support us? Right? If you walked in my door of my office saying that in a performance review I'd be thrilled. I'd bend over backwards to help find how we can take those strengths that you've identified and maximize them further. And many of us don't realize, you know, we're the center of our own movie and our boss is in his own movie or her own movie and they can't see all the little nuances and all the things that are going on in our life and it's very hard in managing a team to manage all of that. It gets exponentially harder. So the better prepared you are in those moments where you do get frank response and feedback from your boss or your peers even, the better it's going to be for you to double down on those strengths and grow into that role. The other opportunity you have in that conversation with your boss is to link your strengths to the achievement of the team's goals, the strategic goals, how you support revenue, innovation. And I tell our coaching clients, draw it clearly. Don't make your anybody guess. Just spell it out for me exactly how your strengths enabled us to achieve this goal. And by saying what you did does not mean you're not a team player or that you don't recognize that it takes a village. We all know it takes a team, but you need to be clear enough around your impact and how you drove the results as well as the contribution of the team because to your point, AJ, if I'm managing a team of three, five or 10 people, it's not possible for me to know everything you're doing and also to make all those connections. It isn't feasible. Do it for me. Make it easy for me to see what a rockstar you are. Yeah. And those moments are key throughout the year. Again, it's so many of our coaching clients default to that performance review time and that's when they raise their self-awareness and that's when all the issues get presented. It's like, no, this has most likely been an ongoing issue. And if you could have nipped it in the bud originally with that conversation or you could have clarified, hey, this is how my strength actually played into this result. It would have saved you the dreaded review. It would have saved you the frustration of not getting promoted another year and feeling like you're falling behind. And so one tactical way to do this to keep that performance conversation ongoing is when you have your one-on-one with your manager. So you meet with them twice a month, intentionally carve out time at one of those and maybe it's just 10 or 15 minutes, maybe 10 minutes and you come in strengths, you come in with feedback you're seeking, you come in with where you want to develop in the next two weeks, month. If you take ownership and bring that conversation to them, that will allow you to get more real-time feedback and you're not going to miss an opportunity. And it shows that hunger and I want to grow and I want to be with the company and I'm looking to move. Absolutely. And another point that you make in the book that sort of all of this is drawn from is our relationships with our coworkers and our boss and many of us take that relationship for granted. It's there because we're next to the people that we work with or on Zoom all the time now and yeah, I have a relationship but we don't do a great job of managing that relationship and allowing it to fully blossom. In fact, some of us bring negative assumptions into these relationships and we're grilling our peers and holding them to standards that they can't meet and in the process, we're sacrificing those relationships that we need to get ahead. How can we get off the ladder of interference as you call it and cultivate a healthier working environment? Oh, you brought up the ladder. This is a good one because we've all been up the ladder. So there's an event, AJ and I have a conversation and then it doesn't go the way I want it to. So then I step on the wrong. I'm like, mm, yep. Here's the story. He wasn't prepared. He wasn't ready to give me the feedback I want. Then I go up the next wrong. I'm like, he's just not a good manager. He is not tuned in. Then I step on the next wrong of the manager of the ladder and I look like I'm going to think about the five last times I worked with him. Yep. He just sucks as a manager. Look at all these instances and before you know it, I'm at the top of this thing called the ladder and I've created this story based on one interaction about my manager AJ that isn't true and the problem is now I'm going to act off of the story in my head. So the next time I see you act like an asshole because I have this story in my head. Now the problem with the ladder is two fold one. We get to the top of it really quickly and the reason it's called a ladder and this is a concept by Chris Argers is the guy that came up with this. The ladder or top of the ladder is unstable so it creates an unstable relationship. The other problem with it is you can get to the top of the ladder in like 30 seconds. It's so fast. Really fast and when you're already a little stressed and on edge and a little over zooming it becomes a 15 second climb. Now once you're there how do you get off? So the first thing to do is you've got to go back to the event and focus on the facts. Facts are an actual occurrence, something observable, something you can see. What actually happened in the situation? Now sometimes you can be pretty heated and it can be pretty hard to do that so it can be helpful if there was a colleague or a peer someone who's more neutral either in that interaction solid or you can tell them what happened to help you see the facts of the situation to look at it. Then you've got to check the story. The story I'm telling myself is he just doesn't care. He's a terrible manager and can we look for instances where that wasn't true. So now we've got to bump our story up against other facts and then we've got to go back to that person because we've probably acted out and been a jerk go back to the original situation. Here's the story that I told myself. What was your experience? How can we find a mutually beneficial solution? There's so many key points that I want to talk about there because I know so many of us and I've been on that ladder faster than 15 seconds. The first one is us bringing our own story to the plate at the very beginning. We all of a sudden start mind reading and assuming these things about our co-workers or peers or our boss or manager that we have no factual relevance or evidence of whatsoever. It's important in these moments that we remind ourselves how quickly we can fall into this trap and just raising awareness around that that this is a common occurrence. You're not alone. We've all suffered it especially when we've in a heat of the moment or we feel that we've been wronged in any way. Then the second piece of this that I think is so key and it's something that I do in my life in the business with Johnny I'm doing it and with Amy in my relationship around. Let me just go through this story and see if you can see what I'm seeing or feeling and please tell me hey that sounds like an opinion to me or that sounds like you're reading too much into it. I need you to be that extra set of eyes and ears in this situation because my emotions are getting the best of me. It's short-circuiting all of the logical information that our brain is processing and it's coloring the way of course we're going to react in the moment and then also the worst part about this is we can carry that grudge for months, years and it leads to our own prison of misery where your peers, your boss doesn't even know or have those feelings at all and you're just carrying that weight for no reason. So having that peer, having that spouse, that partner someone in your life that will be honest with you and say you know what that doesn't sound like the boss that I've encountered or that sounds like you're reading too much into that story or did they actually say that or are you surmising that that's how they were feeling and what was going on for them. Just having that level of inquiry when you're sharing those heat-of-the-moment stories has allowed me certainly to bring more clarity and then the part that I really loved the last bit that you said there is then circling back and being like you know I may have screwed up in my reading of this but that's how I was feeling in the moment. Does that check out for you because I certainly don't want to carry this forward. I don't want this level of conflict, frustration or whatever to be a part of my work environment and we are responsible for the relationships in our job. We have control. We often time pretend like we don't know my boss is this way so I just have to deal with it. You don't. You have more control than you want to believe. And you own a piece of the action. So if the relationship isn't working well the first place you have to look is yourself. What's the story as you said that I'm telling myself. Where am I holding this grudge. Where am I allowing this grudge or the story to inform my behavior that isn't based in facts in the actual situation that we're in. Because until you own your piece of the action that relationship is not going to change. We all know that we can't make people change. That we can change. And what I've seen so often in our clients and I would imagine you have as well is when they finally have the conversation with their manager or their partner or that team member and can be vulnerable and open enough really wanting to understand that perspective or what was going on. That's where the transformative breakthrough will happen. That's where they can really see differently and it will actually strengthen that relationship. So it can take a very fractured contentious relationship to a place of mutual respect and understanding. That's exactly it. That shows that you appreciate that person enough to value the relationship and not let this ladder of interference lead you to think all of a sudden oh my god this person is out to get me. It becomes a magnifying glass and a spotlight for other behaviors and I've been just as guilty of this. Then all of a sudden I'm in the break room and my coworkers are laughing they could be laughing about a joke on TV but I'm like oh they're laughing about me because I'm still holding that story from what happened in the meeting two weeks ago and that's an awful place to be in your work environment. I think those are wonderful cognitive tools to use to work your way through the stories that you're telling yourself. I think also coming to grips and being honest with yourself of where your strengths and weaknesses are and know when you are on your weaknesses and because that's where you're going to be the most emotive you're frustrated you're worn out you're you know you're coming up short and you're frustrated and it's that moment when you're in those moments to recognize I'm outside of my comfort zone my emotions are flying therefore the stories that I'm going to be telling myself about what is going on around me are going to probably a little bit more exaggerated than they normally are because I worked up emotionally. I think also making sure that you ground yourself but understanding that for the most people want the best for each other and they want you to succeed and you wouldn't have been hired and put in this group in this role if the person who hired you did not think you were going to be a good fit either you will grow into that role or you're perfect for that role but they're not going to want to put you in a role where you're going to fail that makes them look bad that makes the company do worse and now the trauma that would come from something like that would affect your whole staff and now your whole staff is dealing with the abuse and the trauma of the blowout that just happened. Absolutely and I think we could also Jenny talk about this in terms of scarf I think this could be helpful to talk about that framework around just the emotion and being worn down so there is a framework it's called scarf so all of us are social animals we want to be in relationship and interestingly social pain is treated in our brain the same way as physical pain so when you are feeling like you're not good enough or you're not on the team it is a painful situation and there are five domains in scarf it's status certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness and at work and in life any all some or all five of these can be triggered and when they get triggered it's exactly what you're talking about Johnny you are just overwhelmed in emotion you're want to either punch someone in the face because you're like or you just want to take your toys and be like I'm out I'm not playing in the sandbox anymore with you I'm out of here and so when you think about these five statuses about power and pecking order do I know where I fit in the group certainty is about knowing the outcome can I predict what's going to happen next I'll feel comfortable autonomy can I shape my work in a way that I have control and choice relatedness I'm in the group and then fairness it feels fair just knowing that these are common we all experience them when one of these is triggered having that emotional out there is completely normal don't want to stay in it want to take a breath and step out and if possible think about what you could do to mitigate these so I'll give you a personal example autonomy is my big one I mean I want to feel like I'm in control love being an entrepreneur self directed so as soon as I get the client that starts to get really prescriptive really demanding I can just feel it it's like my boxing gloves come up I'm like that's not how we do it around here and so I have to check myself I'm like okay you're feeling this is an autonomy threat you're feeling it take a breath okay let's take a moment and then step back in or how can I mitigate it going forward and to have a couple of things in our contract that are more non-negotiable that give that space and flexibility that I know I need and my team needs I think the one time all of us feel that exact experience is when we have been passed over for a promotion and this is a very common situation in many of our careers we're going to face this adversity and it definitely stinks in the moment and unfortunately in many of those situations we're not given the feedback as to why someone else gets the promotion they bring in someone outside or someone else who we thought was less qualified or all the story we bring to the table and we never get that feedback we never close that loop what is your advice if you've been in that situation or you're experiencing it right now to combat all of those negative emotions that we know lead you up that ladder of inference and all of a sudden we're in a very toxic situation mm-hmm so the first thing you got to ride the wave of the emotion so if you try to tap it down it's going to come out I mean you're going to flip someone off in traffic you all know it if so part of it is letting the emotion move through so physical movement dance party humor all of these can kind of help the emotion settle down because in that highly charged state right after they're like so Joe is going to be taking this new position you're not in any kind of state of mind to ask for specific feedback or do anything really rational so just pause and back off then the second step is we always talk about what do you know about the person that received that promotion and what do you know about their experience we know about their skills what do you know about their track record and can you step back and this often works well with a partner or teammate or spouse and compare their resume CV to yours and can you see places where you're aligned and do you see some gaps do they have a certification have they worked in this market segment but you haven't so it can we get some grounded data just from what we know about this person and then the second step is to feel the fear and go ask your manager because I would suggest being passed over when it is a true surprise then your piece of the action as you weren't doing what you've said all along AJ getting that consistent feedback and check in if it is a huge surprise that your piece of the action we should have known there was a gap so you could have solved for it and not have been passed over and then sometimes they're not your manager won't give you specific feedback and if that's the case can you go to someone else in the company a mentor sponsor that might be able to give you some more feedback on what your opportunity is to ensure this doesn't happen again I know for myself when I get wound up when I feel those emotions come on I've labeled it emotional theater which by labeling it that way I'm able to detach and observe myself and the emotions how I'm feeling and I could laugh at it I could be like oh my what are you doing now because it is now labeled it is something to see it's a production and it's going to go on whether or not I'm engaged but by detaching myself I could go through the emotions I could even check in with myself going are you done yet I'll need another night to sleep on it and it allows me to feel observe and act accordingly without getting caught up in it yes and that's brilliant and I'm so glad you're not talking about suppressing our emotions because it does not it just comes out in a really interesting or ugly way that none of us really want to talk about on a podcast so we won't go there and I think it's so important just to give yourself what you're talking about Johnny that grace and space be an observer laugh at it have fun with it but let it be big and bold you know like do what it is whatever it needs to do in a container obviously that doesn't harm you or anyone else but you can just ride the wave because it will pass it will pass it will pass and if you have documented a few times or honest with yourself about a few times that you acted through that emotion and you see the insanity and how you how you made everything worse number one you realize that acting in this moment is not going to help that's we understand that number two just things will pass and then when things calm down you'll be able to work through it in a much more logical manner and just by having that documented you know that I know I'm fired up I know this needs to be handled but what's the big deal if I handle it now or I wait two three days and waiting those two or three days is going to make everything that much better even if it might need an answer in that moment it's just going to be better if we just let things go let things die down detach allow the show to go on have some fun watching it and have a giggle over yourself and then deal with what you need to do the world's not going to end in two days no switching gears a little bit here there are many in our audience and I'm thinking of a recent client who joined us in our X Factor group who sought feedback sought feedback from his peers and got the 360 review that we've discussed and one of the bits of feedback that he got is that he's actually terrible at giving feedback and when he gives feedback it's actually demotivating and one of the all stars on the team one of their recent hires was struggling and trying to do everything and in trying to do everything they didn't do the one main piece that they really needed to do for the group to succeed so he gave that bit of feedback and it was poorly received and demotivated this new guy so much that he actually thought about quitting because he had so much respect for our client and to get that feedback made him feel like he was doing such a horrible job he didn't deserve to be there so talking about the ladder of inference working the other way many of us now are moving into management roles and soft skills is obviously what we talk about on the show and it's a big part of your success in your career and part of that is giving others feedback and not demotivating those that you are working beneath you what are your tips and strategies for imparting that effective feedback and keeping motivation high on our teams so I'm going to start AJ with a not to do and it's the feedback sandwich this is what you're doing so well and then I'm going to bury the thing you need to work in right here I'm going to say it really quick and then this is what you're doing really really well and the problem with the feedback sandwich is you're burying my opportunity and so I'm unclear on what it is I need to focus on but the story we tell ourselves is it's motivating because I gave two positives for one opportunity doesn't work so we want to keep the motivation up so the first thing is to be specific and very action oriented so the feedback focuses once again on the facts what's observable what we can quantify and it's one little piece you do not throw the entire kitchen sink it's just one little piece with a very specific action step of what to do differently and then it's framed the container of the feedback to maintain that motivation is about growth development and performance AJ I know you want to be our next VP of sales and one of the things our VP of sales does really well is understanding clients pain points in the last conversation with a client who served you did not ask a specific question about their market segment specific questions give us really important data in your next conversation ask a specific question this is one thing our VP of sales does really well that's a totally different conversation absolutely and now it is completely on the mark for me to go and execute on yes you can do it with the sandwich your belly is full you have no idea what you actually need to do next it doesn't work that way but many of us are trying to save feeling save face not give the feedback for fear that it won't be absorbed properly and we're actually doing a disservice to that person because we're muddling the message they can't act on it they can't improve and then we're continuing to hold them to a high standard with no clarity right you haven't set them up for success and feedback can be an emotionally neutral event if it's specific based on the facts you give an example of the behavior that is going to support them in achieving their career goals it doesn't have to trigger a fight or flight response it doesn't have to send us into this emotional vortex it's and also if you as a manager coming in scared nervous well that's going to come through you know so you might need if you're new to management maybe your first time leading a team your opportunity might be practice with a peer hey this is my first time I'd like to practice here's what I want to say can you give me some feedback on this because rehearsal will also help dial down that emotion you know when you do it a couple of times when you do it with a person it's going to feel I know what I'm doing I've practiced this yeah and I think involving that other person is so key it's the same experience I do when I'm practicing and speaking on stage doing it in an empty room is so different than even having one person sitting in front of you so if you're going to be practicing feedback or conversations or interviews or anything for career advancement involve another human in it don't just do it in your bathroom do it in your room without that response because it's a totally different experience when someone is in the room reacting in a way that you hadn't encountered you hadn't prepped for one other asterisk I want to make that because I 100% agree and set the person that you're partnering with who is your audience or who is role playing for an interview set them up with what the feedback is that you want so it could be you have it on a sheet please listen for these four things or please note my eye contact because you don't want to set your feedback provider up to just open the can of worms right well you know you were twitching your hair I don't care about my hair that was not what I was we want to make sure once again that's really specific to come back to this this is great so in our classrooms we used to do video work and we would film our clients interacting with others so we could give them some constructive feedback because when you're nervous there are certain tells and fundamentals that will break down that you can easily point to and we have a lot of fun with it and everyone is quite surprised that some of the things that they see in themselves when they get nervous but it never fails at the end of the day there's always one or two people go hey that was great can I have my video and we always tell them no and the reason being is that we know what they're going to do with that video they're going to end up they're already doing it whether to give them the video or not but they're playing what they've seen or the video on a loop and then they just start nitpicking all of these things that is not adding to the message that they want to get across and they're focusing on the wrong things and then before you know it because they've ripped themselves the shreds they are absolutely frozen they can't perform yep absolutely a little sweater thread it is which is why when we think about performance in any context it's just focusing on one thing you want to get better on I love that it's always difficult to perform these things in front of people and you know roping in one of your friends to watch you you're going to rationalize it of well they don't count and they're not looking for things and but if you're able to give them something to focus on as you mentioned that is the best way that you're going to prepare and as you said preparing in front of the mirror and then having to walk into that room where there's a table full of folks looking at you it's not good you haven't practiced for that room of those people you practice for yourself in that mirror and you did what you needed to get through that but you haven't prepped for that room and so having a friend having two friends and then giving them something here's what I need you to focus on because this is what I'm working on that's wonderful the other thing you can do is how do we dial up your discomfort how do we push we talked about in running how do you push the pain threshold out there but how do you create a sense there where you can feel that discomfort of eight set of eyes looking at you across the table in an interview situation just so you can practice a little bit of that feeling and sit with it enough to realize that you're going to keep it together this is two is going to be okay but if you can find situations that you can put yourself in that just give you a little bit of that this feels scary this feels hard I'm going to sit with it for just a little bit yeah that is what we call our comfort zone challenges in our courses and it's exactly that it's fun low stakes way for you to feel discomfort it doesn't impact your career it doesn't impact your current relationships but you have to get comfortable with that feeling of discomfort because it is going to be a pattern it is that wall between you and the things you want in life whether it's getting up on stage whether it's a job interview or the last piece that I want to touch on many in our career seeking mentorship and many of the students that we talked to are afraid to ask people to mentor them they think it's a massive responsibility they don't know how to go about it and unfortunately they're missing out on key opportunities for career advancement because not only are these mentors there ready to help support you but a lot of the valuable feedback that you're not getting from your bosses or you can't get from your peers you're going to be able to receive from a mentor so when it comes to your clients who are seeking mentorship what are some of the tips or strategies that our listeners can use to find and really land that mentorship that's going to help them get ahead so first identify the right person which I know you coach your clients on so is it a thought leader is it someone who has the position is it someone who's overcome the challenge you're working to overcome so we need to find the person who has a demonstrated track record of success and performance so we find the right person secondly tell yourself they're really excited to talk about themselves we all love talking about ourselves so do not have the story that they do not want to share their insight and wisdom because they probably do want to share and the third thing is you've got to do the work so people mentors the folks that we've talked to who want to be mentors it's the time, time capacity and so they want to contribute they want to support folks but they need the mentee to do the work that means coming prepared with a set of questions that means you seeking them out that means you adjusting your schedule and making it work maybe it's a 15 minute quick connect and transit with this person on the phone but you've got to own that relationship it is not your mentors responsibility to own it and the other thing that we hear from our mentors is the lack of specificity so if it's too open or too ambiguous and I'm not exactly sure how I can be in service that does not feel good for a mentor and that goes back to that clarity around why you chose this person and what you're looking to learn, gain, grow or develop in and with this relationship and there is one other point here there's a difference between a mentor and a sponsor right you want to break that down for our audience as well okay so a sponsor is someone internally in your organization who advocates on behalf of your career they're the one who says when the doors are closed and you're not there hey have you thought about Johnny for the stretch assignment I worked with him or I know he's capable in these three areas so they are your internal PR they are advocating for you throughout the organization they can only advocate if they know you and your work so you have to make sure you're clear on that mentor is about development growth, advice career counseling a mentor doesn't have to be in your organization and oftentimes is not the same as your sponsor right very important point and I think the two areas of weakness that I've experienced in this mentor-mentee relationship is the lack of specificity up front and it always starts with can I pick your brain and we laugh about that but many fresh out of college they come in not having that specificity and they just expect okay well just 15 minutes of so and so time it can't be that big of a deal but if it's that nebulous if it's that broad that 15 minutes can feel like two hours and the mentor potential mentor is going to pass on it and the second thing is start small take the 15 minutes that you get don't ask for three hours in an in-person meeting take the 15 minutes and then the follow up I found is just absolutely key because no one wants to give advice and not hear if the advice worked or not get any response back was it beneficial am I helping this person I don't know so any action items that you take from that initial meaning or the feedback that you receive from the mentor circle back in a timely manner and say I did this and XYZ happened even if it's small that is going to show the mentor or the person who potentially could mentor you that you are someone who's going to proactively utilize the time spent together in a way that's meaningful for both parties yes I love talking about myself but I love hearing how my lessons have helped transform someone else's career even more if I'm just talking about myself well I could hit record on the podcast and do that so that circle back of the information and the results I find often lacking and people who approach me hey can you mentor me and you're right people are very open to it but only for a short amount of time if I keep giving advice and I don't see any of it going anywhere and there hasn't been any changes or even worse you say I'm going to get that this week and weeks go by no response what's going to make me less encouraged to continue the relationship and it's really important to manage those expectations up front well and I think sometimes as mentees we forget that the mentors brand is also at stake here too back to your point AJ I want to help you I want you to grow and I want to see that and if it's not happening that could have a negative impact on my brand potentially if particularly we're internal in organization and you've been very public AJ is my mentor and I'm still floundering on the thing that I went to help me what doesn't look good for either of us now we love ending every episode with a challenge for our audience I know we hit them with a lot of great tips and advice is there one thing that you would challenge our audience to do in the next week that you think could really help advance their career or turn their job that they dread and do a job that gives them purpose and fulfills them I would challenge your audience to get really clear on how your work is important and valuable to your customer either internal or external so if you and this work did not exist what would happen that is such a valuable exercise and we aren't just cogs in a machine we are at a very important part of what's going on and the clear we are on that the easier it is for all of that purpose and fulfillment from work to spring forward our last question today we ask of all of our guests what is your X factor what do you think makes you unique combining a skill set and a mindset that has unlocked success for you in your life I am intensely curious about what makes people tick and in understanding that I learn more about myself and can help them and we definitely found that in your latest book thank you so much for joining us we really appreciate it thank you so much I really appreciate it where can our audience find out more about the work that you do I'm at carcentate.com and on LinkedIn carcentate and check out the book on any of your favorite retailers own it love it make it work thank you so much Carson thank you Carson thanks