 Podcasters round table, round one, zero, five. What else does podcasting need? This is one of those time sensitive topics. So I feel like we probably have covered this before, but that's okay because this is not a prediction show. It's not what do you think's gonna happen in 2018? But as we look forward to 2018, a new year doesn't matter. What year it is, what else do you think podcasting needs? Maybe nothing else. Maybe you're perfectly happy with where podcasting is. But do we need more to grow? Is there something you want? Something you need, something you'd like to see? That's kind of what we're kicking around here today. So let's meet the small round table. For now, co-host Dave Jackson, welcome back. Ray, thanks for having me here. Dave Jackson from theschoolofpodcasting.com. It should be fun to kick this idea around for a little bit tonight, looking forward to it. And first time round table or long time listener and viewer, he says he catches this live a lot. He's always in the chat. Josh, welcome. Hi, Ray, Dave, how you going? I'm from bandwidthdeprived.com today and or jcaldigital.org is my main website and my main podcast. I've actually just transitioned into a new one. It's called Shanara World and it's about the Terry Brooks novels and the TV show. So I'm pouring a lot of the experience, much of which I've learned off this show into that new one. So hopefully it doesn't completely suck. Very cool. Yeah, well, you know, we are just, this is a campfire with friends here, having a conversation. So it can be about anything and all feedback is valuable. I'm gonna kick this off actually with, I asked a question on Twitter. I said, what else does podcasting need? And Josh actually, you answered and we'll save, well, you can do your own now. We got Rob Greenley's about to join. Look at this, Eric. Okay, this small round table, turning into a big one and we'll get, well, let's let them get on and I'll go with the first response that I got is Charlie, AKA podcast village on Twitter. He said, a greater understanding by folks that they already have a podcast app on their phone. And I replied that, okay, yes, but most people have, actually the majority of people have Android phones. And so they don't necessarily have a podcast app on their phone or do they, Google Play music would be. So let's dive into that a little bit. Do we need more? Okay, I'll say we need more from Google in the next year. And Rob Greenley, welcome to the show. No audio, we'll wait. So we'll wait. Dave, I chatted with you off, not live. And I was asking you, is the Google Play music app, to me it's all in the name that tells you everything we need to know. Google Play music sucks at podcasts. Is that, does that come with every Android phone? Now, maybe you're not the right person to answer because you said you- I don't have an Android device. Josh, do you have an Android device by any chance? I've never owned one, but my housemate sells a lot of them at his work. And there is no native app from what I understand. So it's actually called something podcast. Right, and that's the difference. I think that Google Play music while it supports podcasts, it's not a standalone podcast app that is made only for podcasts and the implementation of podcasts in Google Play really sucks. Rob, are you there? Yeah, I'm here, can you hear me now? Yeah, we got you. So Rob, can you tell me, you know, Rob is a real outlier, he uses Windows phones, I don't know if he has an Android device, he probably does because he's a speaker. No, I do have an Android device and I have an iPhone. Okay, does Google Play music come on an Android device pre-installed? No, it does not. You have to install it from what I understand. Yeah. So is that the real thing? Well, actually I should back up the, the Google Play music is an app. I believe it's part of the suite of apps that Google has on Android. So yeah, so it's in there, but podcasts are kind of buried. It's not an easy thing to discover because it's inside the music experience, right? So. Right, and this used to be, that's the way it was for podcasts on Apple for a long time, it was in the iTunes app, right? But then Apple stepped up and broke it out. Good or bad, I don't know. Has that, do you guys think that has been good that they separated into its own app? Yeah, I think it has been good. And you would think that a player like Google would see what the biggest player in the space would be doing and try and emulate that, right? And I think that they have a team now that's working on a second gen solution. So I don't know what that's going to look like, but I'm sure it's going to be, it's going to match a lot closer to what the market is expecting. So a second gen of Google Play music or another, or I guess that? That's yet to be determined if there's any, going to be any direct connection with Google Play with us or not. I don't know for sure the team won't get that specific with me about it. They've just been very observant in the medium today. They've been to podcast movement, a whole like six or seven of them went to podcast movement. And then I've had some meetings with them too, just sharing things about the market. And so they're definitely talking to podcasters. They're keeping their ear to the ground. They definitely want to come up with a better solution. They feel that the experience in Google Play right now isn't up to their standards. So they're willing to look at something new. So that's a hopeful sign. Who knows when that will happen? What it will look like, there's really nobody knows that except for the team and upper management of Google at this point. Sure, so what do we think about? Okay, so Charlie says he wants a greater understanding of what it looks like by folks that already have it, that they already have a podcast app on their phones, but does this make a difference just having an app even if it's something that comes with your phone? That's a podcast app. Do we think this makes a difference? Yeah, it can, but it's one of those things that makes it easier, but it doesn't make it happen. I mean, when the podcast app became native on Apple, the people didn't have to download it. You know, we're like, oh, cool, it's there. People will click on it and I don't think any of the steps are gonna give us that hockey stick growth that we want, but it is one less barrier. So that's always something to cheer about. And my hope would be, you know, it's a pipe drink, but it'd be great if Google came out with it and then actually advertised it. Like on all these new, I see all these phones now, you know, look, it's waterproof. It does this, it does that. And if they said, and it's got a podcast app, that'd be awesome just to get the word podcast in front of more people than, you know, what we're getting to now. Is there anything in particular that Google can do or maybe a proprietary technology or kind of team that could actually, if they went as far as to produce a generation two, could bring new features to the actual space? There's probably a question, I guess, for Rob, more than anything, because he seems to have some inside track there. Is there anything special that they could bring if they do bring this new app to market? Well, I think that there's things that they could do that could be unique just because of the resources and the abilities that Google could bring to the table. Though I would say that Google is not necessarily a content company, I would say that they're more of a advertising platform. So any, they don't seem to have any problem with YouTube and blowing up video, right? So, and all for the purpose of ad revenue because the more people watch their video, the more ads they get in front, it's probably more about the ad model on podcast than it is actually the medium of podcast being primarily audio, right? Because they're not serving up audio ads. So maybe they need to get into audio advertising at the same time. Well, you know, I think that that's the lens that Google is gonna look at this medium is how can they tap into their core DNA? And that's as an advertising platform. I think that what we've seen over the last couple of years is the advertising and podcasts have kind of accelerated and grown fairly rapidly and they may see a big opportunity here to come in and do something around that. And so this experience that we're talking about in a new app would probably be a little bit geared more a little bit towards kind of a better advertising experience is what I would think. So what they would come up with is methodologies or user experiences that would, you know, really kind of make the advertising experience much better on there. So my guess would be that they would come up with some sort of a common kind of user experience that would be, you know, totally acceptable by user testing, but then they're gonna add this layer of advertising ability. And I also believe that there's other players that are coming into this medium that have a little bit of a expectation that they're gonna have a role in the advertising side of this, you know. So there's, this is gonna be a big movement, I think that's gonna happen over the next couple of years is there may be some of these big platforms are gonna wanna have podcasts on them, but they wanna monetize them to be on those platforms that could be separate from primary hosting, advertising, insertion, those kind of things also. Do we know, has Google Play Music even opened up podcasts past North America? We have some people in the chat room. Scott says, I cannot add a podcast to Google Play app from Australia. Yeah. I mean. I think it's US only right now, yeah. Yeah. I kind of watched it, it's from Australia, so yeah. Yeah. I mean, just a completely drop the ball experience when it came to Google adding, it was like, yay, Google's finally gonna give podcasts to try again and it just seems terrible. Josh, is Spotify something that's available in Australia? It is, it's been here for a long time, actually. I'm not sure if it can. Yeah, I think it came to Australia very quickly after Sweden or wherever it launched. So that's probably, yeah, that's the experience that I've been actually suggesting people in the Android go to recently. But there's the truncated show notes and it is a little bit more digging than if it was an actual app. So. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of these companies, and I faced this when I was working on Zoom at Microsoft where roll out to other countries is a pretty big step. So Google is probably in a similar kind of mental position where the lawyers get involved in it and there's concern about making that content available and then being able to staff up the support of each country adds costs. So there is a little bit of hesitation on these bigger platforms of rolling out to other countries. Now I think Spotify is a little bit of an exception to that. I think their orientation has been a little bit more aggressive in expanding the Spotify platform to other countries. So they are somewhat the exception. Apple has done a terrific job of, I don't know how many countries they're in now, like 155 or some crazy number with podcasts. Which is also why it's Google. So I can't give them much, I can't say, but like, yeah, they've had some difficulties. No way, you're Google and Apple's done it. So dominate, let's do this, I'm tired of waiting. Well, and if they're in the, well, the other part of here too is you think about the advertising business. The advertising business is not strong in podcasts outside of the US. So that would be one other thing that you should keep in the back of your mind as you think about expansion into other countries. But Google needs to drive that. They have that power, right? So it's like an investment. A podcaster doesn't start off making money. They put two years, five years of hard work in and then money comes. Google should put investment into the space and build on top of what we have. Well, it's not, I mean, that's part of the picture. I agree with you, but I think that there's another part to it too and it's where the advertisers are. I know a lot of the campaigns that we get involved with at Blocktalk Radio and Spreaker and things like that typically are US only. So a lot of the ad spending is just not there outside of the US yet. Is that just, they're tentative to jump into the space where over here we've had podcasting maybe a little longer than other places so they're just not sure of it? Well, it's a different media market outside of the US too. If you think about a lot of the radio networks over there, they're typically kind of public radio type. There's not a lot of commercial radio around the world. I mean, other than in the US. So it's a little bit of a different orientation towards advertising too. So why Apple? Why does Apple do it then? Because they're not- Because Apple's just trying to sell a lot of devices. But I mean, you're not buying a device to listen to a podcast on, right? You can listen to a podcast any one of these days. It's the number one thing I think about when I upgrade. I don't know if that means anything, Ray. It's the number one thing you think of podcasts. Yeah, when I stick with my iPhone transition it's because there's absolute castar on there that I trust will give me my podcast. And that's obviously completely anecdotal, but. Right, but I mean, Apple's always done it. In the beginning it feels more like a device thing, but now these days there's a podcast app on every platform and it's not necessarily difficult, I would say. I don't know. I mean, it just seems like you got one side flipping the bill or the other side just doesn't wanna play until maybe it's already fully formed, which seems too late for me. Yeah, I just hope that whatever they're doing there they're really gonna do it this time. Like when they approached me at podcast movement, I know they approached a lot of people there and the guy walked up with a Google shirt and said, hi, I'm from Google. And I was like, in my brain, I'm like, sure you are. And then he handed me a business card and I'm like, oh my gosh. So I'm excited to hear from what Rob's saying. There's a whole team working on it. So I'll be, I just hope when they come, they actually like, it's not another, like we're gonna stick our toe in the water. I hope they actually just dive into the pool. Right, and what I want is what Dave, what you already alluded to, which was is the promotion of it. They have big reach, right? Google can drag along advertisers, they could drag along audience. They could do a lot of things with a space. So Paul Colligan made a great point at podcast movement because he said, how many people are aware of what a, you know, an Amazon Echo is? And he goes, and like they're up to like, I don't know, 60, 70% of people now understand what an Amazon Echo is because of all the commercials. There's tons of them. Well, they did in like two years, what podcasting did in 12. You know, we're still have people go, no, I don't know what a podcast is. And I was like, well, it's because you can make money from an Echo, it makes it easier to buy Amazon products and all sorts of other things. But, you know, I even asked the guys at Apple, I go, why, why are you guys into podcasting? Like what's in it for Apple? And the rep I was talking to said, it goes back to the whole think different kind of thing. He said, Steve was always into creative people and thinking outside the box. And he kind of thought that podcasters are, you know, we're not mainstream media and we do kind of do fringe podcasts. And I was kind of like, well, that's a fun answer. There was part of me wants to go, yeah, but there's gonna put out, it's a lot of money to have developers and all the other, you know, especially now with the stats, I can only imagine the headaches they're getting into with that. I still kind of scratch my head. At this point, their lead is so large, it feels like, why would you kind of give it up? Even if they don't know what they want to do with it, they dominate the market. So it'd be kind of weird to just sort of let that ship sail. But yeah, I don't know, you know, we want to think it's this altruistic effort to support creators and everything. And I think maybe in the beginning, it was partly that, but, you know, why now? And I think it's partly because of the lead, but you know, they're gonna, they lose that lead every day that they don't sort of iterate on the product. But anyways, that was the first response from Twitter. So we could probably move on. Hilda, Liberada Gore, she's been on a former roundtabler. She said, more community. She said, podcasters need to keep creating opportunities to meet their audience and give them chances to connect with each other. And immediately I thought about in real life, which I, you know, is amazing. Always to take that next step and meet someone in real life. But of course, online as well. You know, a great chance an online community gives your listeners a great chance to interact with each other and to do stuff outside of the podcast. So she'd like to see more community. I know that there are just tons of, I feel like there's a lot of community. I mean, it just matters where you sort of decide to, let's sandbox decide to play in, right? We've got Facebook has large communities for podcasting. Google Plus still has one or two. I'm sure there's a whole bunch, but that are, you know, more active. And then each show probably has some type of community, whether it's a Facebook fan page or something. I don't know, what do you guys think about that? Dave, do you want to talk about a pod con at all when it comes to community? Yeah, that was a pod con was a, it was the first time I'd ever been to any con. So it was the first time I'd ever been exposed to people doing the, it's not dressing in, it's a cosplay. Cosplay, yeah. And, but these are people that were so inspired. It was like the Beatles. I was in this room of about a thousand people. They got the, you know, it looks like a Bon Jovi concert. You got the big, you know, things behind you, big screens. And these guys were talking to like the, the five guys that started it. And they're asking them what their weirdest job was growing up. And the last guy at the very end said, youth pastor, that was the weirdest job he'd ever had. In this place, how old would laughter? I had no clue what they were talking about. I was so, it was so much of an inside joke. And I was so outside of the inside joke, but there was a huge community there. And that's when that was to me, it was almost like the Wizard of Oz, kind of going from black and white to color to where it was like, there's a whole other planet going on over here. I had no clue. So that was for, that was essentially like a VidCon. It's like a podcast conference for podcast fans, which there's a few of those, LA podcast and stuff like that, where you kind of come and meet your favorite podcasters. You see live shows, stuff like that. We have podcast movement. I say we like almost us in this group, podcasters about podcasting, the people who would follow this show or the types that go to that, but it's a small segment of the audience who is not engaged in sort of advancing podcasting or learning more. Do we need more conferences? Is that what you're saying? Do we need like podcon? That's a new thing. Do we need more of that? Well, there was national podcast power. That was a little one here in Ohio. David Hooper did one in Nashville called Big Podcast. I think was the name of that one. You know, there's been quite a few this year. In fact, last year, well this year, it's still this year at this point, quite a few popped up and I think we're gonna see. We need more exposure? I don't know, I don't know. Cause on one hand, if we get a bunch of little ones, is that the same as one big one? Cause I mean, there comes a point when they're so big that you can't, like there have been times I've wanted to see somebody podcast movement. We were both there and we never saw each other. Well, what's the real point of, what does a podcast conference do for podcasting? It just brings focus. It brings some attention. It brings an event that can be publicized. I think it's all powerful stuff. And I mean, one thing that was different about, and Dave didn't necessarily dive into this part of it, but what was different about PodCon was that this community inspired people that would never have thought about creating a podcast to step up and start seriously thinking about it. I'm talking about young people. I'm talking about people in their mid to late teens and early 20s, which typically, you don't see those folks involved in podcasting. I'm sorry, even from a listener level, you haven't seen it and that's what was really eye-opening about this particular event was that that community exists already and we just didn't know about it. For, do you think though that for creatives, people who are creating and posting online, do you feel like podcasting is now kind of a standard move? I feel like I'm seeing anyone who has, they've built an audience somewhere else, they're adding a podcast. YouTubers, they're all getting podcasts, big YouTubers. I think Casey Neistat is gonna have a podcast and you got H3 and I mean, the next step for these people who have created a fan base is a podcast. Do you feel like that that is something you're seeing as well? I do, to me, I think it's like having a fax machine back in the late 80s. I think it's just gonna be part of- That didn't go too well. No, that's my only worry about it is that that means that somewhere in about 10 years somebody else is gonna come along with some sort of new thing. But I just, I'm with you, every time I turn around there's somebody else and it's fun because I see people that I contacted five years ago and said your organization really needs a podcast. And they're like, and then I go back and oh yeah, they started one last year. So I think everybody's, Rob, what do you think? People are, you think everybody's jumping on board at this point? Yeah, I think it's become mainstream now. I think you're either a listener or you're thinking about creating a podcast. I mean, I hear more and more people talking like that. It's like, I mean, a lot of them will never do it, but they feel inspired. And that's the big thing that's really, I think, changed over the last, probably in the last year, year and a half. Why do you think everyone's a migrating to a podcast? Why do you think that that's sort of the next channel you have to have for people who can have a podcast? I mean, and Dave saw this too at PodCon. I think it's a little bit of a clue, I think of what could be going on from a macro perspective is that a lot of people don't feel necessarily safe or good about social media much anymore. And social media was one of the things that really, I think got in the way of podcasting's early development because YouTube and social media blew up, right? When podcasting had its little perception dip. I mean, podcasting still progressed and grew. It just grew at a slower rate. But it was definitely a perception dip when social media was starting to take off and YouTube was taking off and it was siphoning off content creators over to these platforms that were making people money and making people famous and all this stuff. And it just feels like that stuff isn't as cool as it used to be anymore. There's a lot of pissed off YouTubers out there that feel like they're getting ripped off by Google now and there's a lot of people that have gotten involved in social media and there's a lot of haters, a lot of trolls out there that are making people feel unsafe. Podcasting is one of those mediums that has been like bubbling here for many years. And I think it's time because podcasting is safe generally for younger people and people to get involved in. You typically don't see a lot of trolls involved around podcasting. It's a very unique and personal medium which is very much fits into the younger generation's orientation about authenticity and being real. And all the same, I just think that the changes in the demographics and what people want with their online experiences is morphing towards podcasting and podcasting is filling that void. Why do you think it's safe? You're saying is it because of trolls? Do we need trolls? And is it a problem that we can't easily give feedback? The reason we don't have trolls is because you can't super simply give feedback to a podcast. That's part of it. If I did a podcast and I didn't have my picture on my website, I could have thousands of people listening to my show, I could walk into an event and nobody would know it was me. I mean, that's what it was like in the early days of podcasting. Somebody would walk in and you're like, hey, who are you? And he's like, I'm CC Chapman. And we're like, oh, we all knew him. We just didn't know what he looked like. And so I think that's part of it is that I was listening to Howard Stern a couple weeks ago and he said the reason he got into radio, he says is that he wants to talk to people but he doesn't like people. And if you're kind of an introvert and some of these people at PodCon are kind of a little socially awkward, they wanna, they have a message to say, they wanna help people, they wanna, they're very passionate, but to talk to somebody maybe one-on-one, they might be a little nervous. So now I can just fire up a microphone. I can affect tons of people without actually having to be face-to-face with people. And for some people, that's a huge bonus, the fact that I can affect change without leaving my bedroom. So Chase Nunes and Twitter, he said less, so this is related, he said less podcast pressure, e.g. you don't need to go to a conference to get better. You don't need a $400 microphone or be part of a podcast network to be successful. That, he's saying we don't need more conferences, right? And I think a lot of people feel excluded that they can't travel and meet their favorite podcasters or network with the community and feel like that is what's going to grow their show or further their journey in the podcasting space. So what do you think is for the no-budget podcaster? Well, that's why we're seeing these local events pop up all over the country, right? I miss, what do we, we had my favorites, not podcans, but what's the original? Oh, podcamp. Podcamps, man. Podcamps, yeah. Let's just go away. I guess it's just because it was left up to individuals and it's just like, we have a lot of work. It needs like a national organization for podcamps. Those were so valuable, those helped my career for sure. I wouldn't be doing podcasting as a job if I didn't have, there wasn't one podcamp ever in DC. Well, that's what I love about Josh does another show, podcaster survival guide. And it's all about the fact that you really don't need a high-OPR 40. You don't need a DBX 286. Sorry. Now you don't need those. All I am is. Just take mine out of the shot here. So professed gear, not those. So I've got everything under the sun. But that's, yeah. So, okay. Explain to me. Here we are with our SNS-70s and our, we've got about a $1,000 of microphone sitting right here on the video. So Josh says he has it all. Yeah, Josh, he has the most expensive yet wants to tell you why he doesn't. So, I mean, explain that a little bit, Josh. Cause, you know, Chase says, you don't need a $200 microphone and I would agree, but I'm pretty sure I've heard his voice. And he's one of those people that I think is blessed with what I call a nice voice. For me, my microphone has to do a lot of heavy lifting because I've got, I speak very quickly. So it needs to pick up the transients. And also I just don't have a very flattering voice. So I spent a fair bit of cash. But everyone thinks that everyone thinks about their own voice. And what do you say to the podcaster who says, yeah, me too, Josh, and I don't have the cash. Like my voice sucks. Well, I felt like that for a long time too when I did it in the cash. I sacrificed a lot. I just wanted to go back and make one point about what Ray said earlier. Why are people moving to podcasting? I'll just give one example. In Australia at the moment, there's a very famous radio guys named Tony Martin. And he was part of a show called Martin and Malloy, which is probably the biggest FM radio show that's ever been in Australia. And he wrote a TV pilot. And it actually got rejected. So he turned that into a live scripted read at a comedy festival. And now basically it's been post produced with a voiceover. And there's a mix of the live audience read and also this voiceover stuff. And it's now the most talked about podcast probably at the last three or four years in our country. So I think it's also the credibility of the space is somewhere where creative people can take an idea that's already maybe isn't ready for TV or not right for TV or for the movies and create it within the audio space and actually not worry about it being seen as a second rate platform. And I don't know if I'm completely off base there. No, you're right on track. That's one of the things I miss about the early days of podcasts. There was a guy named, I'm sorry, there was a host named Madge Weinstein was a extremely crude Jewish lesbian. And she would come on and it's like, oh, I can't say this. She had the whole, you know, why? And she's loud and I can't get stupid. And she's dropping all sorts of words that would get you banned immediately. If I look back back now, I don't know that that show could exist today without people picketing outside. And the fun thing was Madge was a dude. That was a whole thing was a character. And half the fun of Madge Weinstein was the fact that at the time, this is like, again, early 2005, we were all just like, man, would this never be on the radio? This just, there's no way this couldn't be anywhere. And I kind of missed that that we're also kind of like, well, it's gotta be, you know, we all have like this script, this recipe of what is a quote good podcast to the point where I wonder sometimes as somebody who's super creative, well, they're like, well, it's not an interview show and I don't have a PR 40 and I, you know, I don't have a good call to action. It's like, yeah, but do it anyway. That's what I've been excited about for a long time. I've said, I'm waiting for the generation who didn't grow up with, really grow up with the radio, didn't watch a lot of TV, and coming up with shows that are just like, where, you know, this is different, right? Getting into podcasting because they can create anything they want. And YouTube's sort of that way. I mean, the evolution or the creation of vlogging as a format, storytelling, I enjoy vlogging when it's done very well, which is, you know, film yourself and tell your story of your day or your trip, whatever it is, that has become, that is very unique that I haven't seen before. And we don't have, I don't know if we have an audio equivalent of that because there's like a daily thing. And I've always been waiting for the sort of the audio vlogger anchor sort of felt like a chance to do something like that. And I just don't know if it works as well in audio, but yeah, I am looking forward. I want more originality, creative stuff that we haven't seen in other mediums before, for sure. Yeah, when this medium started, it was all about sticking it to the man. I mean, people were not into running commercials in their podcasts. That was uncool. Yeah. I mean, you know, podcast endorsements was uncool. You know, we had folks like Audible come in and try and make podcasting with DRM, a cool thing. You know, they were basically thrown overboard, you know? So it was, I mean, it was a very different time than it is now. Now it's kind of cool to have a sponsor and make six figures with your podcast. But back then it was not cool. And I think it's cool too. I think it's cool too, if you can start something original that's completely yours and then find a way to have someone support that, whether I'd rather see the listeners support that, honestly, and then that's what you do because the passion pours through the microphone. And you know, if you can do that as your thing, I think that's amazing. So yeah, I'm glad that we kind of got past that, but we have lost, I don't know if we've lost a little originality or we're just not seeing it bubble to the top as much. What, I feel bad now when people kind of feel like they're not successful because they don't have a sponsor. And I'm like, that is that- They're not successful because Apple won't put them on the front page. And I can't be discovered, Dave. Yeah, that drives me crazy. Cause I'm like, you know, you go back to kind of like, why are you podcasting? Why I wanted to get the word out? Well, you're getting the word out. Be happy about it. Well, I don't have, I'm not getting paid by Stamps.com or Caps.com. Josh, do you think we need more discovery in 2018? Where do you fall on that one? I'm sure you've heard the debate. Yeah, I probably don't have the expertise to comment because I've never discovered a podcast by going to look for one. It's always been- There you go. There you go. That's the clue right there. That is the right answer. But what I always try to keep in mind is that maybe our experience as power listeners and the people that were maybe came to podcasting as being somewhat tech familiar, maybe our experience isn't as analogous with the regular person as what we might think it is. So maybe for the average folks out there that don't have that tech awareness and don't know to go digging around to find things in apps, maybe discovery is an issue. But I think it's more so about what Rob said before that I think that's drummed up by networks and people that have contacts in the media complaining that their shows aren't as popular as what they thought they'd be. So it's more a podcast to discover issue than discovering podcast issue. Yeah, exactly. It's more of a content creator side issue than it is a listener side. It's not hard to find a podcast. And most people find it like you were saying. It's they find it through organic methods. But is it hard to find your audience as a producer? Is it hard to find your audience? Yes, I actually asked David. It's that question on my show. I asked him, how do we find the people that are apparently out there waiting for us? Where do we find those people? And he gave me a great answer, which I can't recall at the top of my head. I was going to ask you, what did they say? Yeah, I think it was to do with actually using the tools that are out there, like Google and Google Alerts and Reddit and all those places and going and trying to actually spending a lot of your time reading through the comments, getting a vibe for the communities and finding a place. It always takes a while. Who's more responsible for finding the audience? It should be more on platforms and search engines and pod catchers or the content creator. Go ahead, Rob. I just don't think that there's a way that you can automate that. I mean, I oftentimes think about... I think this is where Google could do something to be honest with you. I think audiences get built based on almost like a screening process. People come in and check out your show and they either stick with you or not based on what they hear. And that's the only filter that is used in discovery. I mean, people have to build relationships with you as a host. I'm not sure that there's a way to really shortcut that relation connection. They have to find a connection. They can't sample you if they don't know that you're out there, right? And this is where I wish... I don't think there's a good discovery problem, but Google could certainly help here by a very hand talkative today. I know what's going on, but maybe the camera's so far away. I just want to reach it and change the focus. But Google, here's what I've always wanted to happen. Why Google has brought me in to talk about this, I don't know. But when YouTube was starting, search results would surface YouTube videos in the top, right? So if someone's asking a question, a fairly drill down question, if in a podcast or show notes are good enough, why can't it say, you know, it's there? I mean, Google could surface the fact that there is deep dive content that you may want. It doesn't have to be like the top result, although we know most people don't go past three, three through the top three or something. But Google could give some more exposure to the fact that someone is covering the topic you're searching for in depth every week on their podcast. Are you trying to bait Robin to talking about audio search? No, I don't know. I said, it's on the creator to make good show notes. The very thing that Google wants to do is index your site. And we know Todd is crazy about having content on your site and having it being indexed. And Todd actually, Todd would say that he gets a lot of audience that way. You know, I guess if your site's optimized, people will go there and if you've done a good job at letting people know there's a podcast here when they get there. But I still think, and I think Mike Dell, I was talking to him in Slack before, and he was saying that on Android phone, in search results, if you have your RSS feed in your header, I think a player will show up on an Android at least. So it would actually give you an opportunity to play the podcast in search. So that's something that maybe it's headed that way. Maybe it's just because of the device. For me, when it comes to, is it the platform or is it the creator's responsibility? I go back to my days of being a musician. The app was a bar. It was just a bar and a stage. And they provided a venue for me to play. And the same way that an app provides a venue for my stuff. But it was up to my band to make an experience and connect with my audience so that they came back the next time. And more importantly, they brought their friends. How did you get people through the door? Well, we started off with a little group. I remember we used to play this one place with a restaurant. Yeah, we started off and they would move two tables. And then seven guys would fit in a spot where there were two tables. But I would go in and this was back before cameras, before phones, and I had a digital camera. And I would go out on break and I would take pictures and I would say, hey, I don't need your real name. I just need a name. What do you guys celebrate in the night? We're like, I don't know. It's Friday and it might cool. And I would write down their name. But the biggest thing, and I would take those notes, go home, and I would post it on a front page website. But the cool thing was I knew their name and their face. So the next time they showed up at the gig, because wow, we already looked differently because we had our own website and wow, look at me, I'm on the internet. Again, this is before Facebook. But when they would come back, I would then know their name because I had their name in their face, which then connected with the audience, which then we're like, wow, this band is like, no other band. And they would then go get their friends because their friends wanted to be on the internet. So it's just a matter of connecting with your audience in a way that makes them go, holy cow. And then these guys are wearing shiny satin shirts. You know, that was another fun thing. So I think it comes down to content and connecting with the audience. This sort of ties into Ryan Reidenauer's comment on this question. He says, podcasters with patience. It takes time and lots of hard work to be a household name and podcasting. So Dave, are you telling us it takes a lot of time and hard work to build an audience? I know it's not a popular answer, but if you think about it, isn't podcasting really like an entertainment field? Yes. And so how many people, I mean, there are Dr. Ken, who's a famous comedian. He's been in the, I can't forget the name of the stupid movies in Las Vegas where everybody gets drunk. Anyway, Dr. Ken was a show on CBS. It went for two seasons and then it died. You know, and I from understanding that guy's a really funny comedian, but you know, it's the entertainment business. You have to have the right time. You have to have the right channel, the right times, but there's a whole lot of luck goes into that. And I think sometimes, again, if I go back to this formula, if I just do this, this, that, that and that, I will have podcast success. And I don't think that's true. I think there are things you would definitely have to have, but I also think there's a certain amount of luck involved in being at the right time, the right place at the right, you know, and just, I mean, I'm speaking at social media marketing world in a couple of months, mainly because I was actually in the right place at the right time. I just happened to be standing there, a guy from the does things about membership sites. I listened to a show, he walks up. Well, he knew Michael Stelsner. So Michael Stelsner stopped to talk to this guy, which then let me to talk to Michael Stelsner, you know, and that's just luck. And then Michael Stelsner got to know me, asked me to go speak at social media marketing world. So it's luck, but you have been putting yourself in position to meet people like that for the last 14 years. So yeah, call it luck or call it. You make your own luck. Showing up again and again. And you do make your own luck. I mean, don't get me wrong. Do I believe that you do have to be lucky? I mean, I've done some crazy stuff in this space that is just right time, right place, right person. But show up. How did you get your tour? What's that? You were on tour, man. Yeah, I mean, so I am currently the recording engineer for a little, a tiny show called Pod Save America and love it or leave it. And an insane experience. And you know, it feels like one of those super cliche things to say that about creating your own luck and to take stuff for free. And I helped someone else create a podcast and through that, and I produced, actually produced their show for a little while because I saw them plugged into some interesting people and I wanted to work in a different space I hadn't worked in before. And years later, after that had happened and been done, I guess so-and-so talked to somebody and a recommendation came through and the phone rang or an email got sent. And one thing led to another and all of a sudden I met the Chicago Theater recording podcast in front of 4,000 people, screaming people. So, you know, creating your own luck, but again, you know, it's one of those things keep putting yourself out there, keep putting your position, help a lot of people and do a lot with their shows. And, you know, really cool stuff. I think any podcaster who's done it long enough has stories. Dave, you have because of my podcast. You know, people call in and they give you because of their podcast, this happened. And I think a lot of people who start podcasts, I tell people all the time, you don't know what will happen and I guarantee you something will happen that'll surprise you. Whether that's having a friend who's in Australia who knows you and you could travel to a different country and stay at their house. I mean, like crazy stuff happens that you can't anticipate. But, you know, again, it's a long, hard process that you have to stick with. Yeah, sorry. I don't take touring podcasters on my spare bedroom. Sorry, Ray. Sorry, got a chance. It's a Ray. Ray, share with us how the Pod Save America podcast grew so fast because that show kind of came out of nowhere. I call it lightning in a bottle. You know, these are former Obama staffers, speech writers, they all worked in the way out. So huge credibility and they're plugged in. You know, once people like that start a podcast, I think they are given a little bit of exposure. But, you know, 2017 here in U.S. politics has been absolutely insane. So you're looking for a lot of people who are timing. Timing, certainly talent, extreme experience, and people, you know, when you have someone who's coming from a space who's been there, you know, whether you're just the best at something, right, whatever it is you are, people will look to you for the answers. And so, you know, this came along and the liberal, I would say liberal side doesn't have talk radio the way the conservative side. So there was kind of a gap in the space as well. So they filled the need and at the right time. And, you know, and then on top of that, you know, I don't know, again, it's lightning in a bottle. It's kind of producing what people want. I don't know if they figured out what people need. I don't think so. They just, they wanted to have a podcast. And it was a show before that show on a different network, keeping it 1600, 1600. So it was a show a long time before that. And then they broke off on their own and they, I think, said, hey, there's a little bit more here. So it wasn't overnight success. They did spin out their own property and other media. So, you know, it may be starting a show, filling a need or a desire that you're not seeing and then tweaking that once the audience starts to come and they start to tell you or you start to notice why they are there. So maybe you have to shift a little bit to give them more of what they want. So yeah, it really is, they're the less than 1%. It's a really, you don't want to hold yourself to the top of the iTunes charts. Cause people do that, they see these shows and they say, why didn't I start a podcast and have it do that thing? And you got to realize, you know, that some people bring an audience with them as opposed to an indie podcaster might have no audience starting from scratch. And it's not that they brought an audience, but they did bring that credibility and that experience to the media. Was keeping it 1600 on the Ringer podcast network? Yeah, it was. Cause that's Bill Simmons' network and he's got, well, I know at one point he was probably the most followed person on ASPN. Yes. And so, right. And that is, you know, they were part of, you know, they were in a community where they could be found, you know, and that can help, right? If you are somebody who doesn't have, you know, we talked about how do you find your listeners? Well, you should go to where they already are, perhaps, you know, and get that exposure. Don't reinvent the wheel and try to just stay in your own little corner and build it by yourself. You can, but it doesn't hurt to go out and plug in. If I was going to start a show about horses, you can bet, you know, where I'm going to go. I'm going to go to Glenn, horse radio network and I say, hey, can I get a shout out? I mean, one of the shows I work on at work, this week in virology, we call it the twiv bump because if he mentions you, you get a lot more exposure. And so if you have a related science show in that niche, you know, you want to partner up with those people and get that exposure. So maybe what podcasting needs more of is what YouTube really values, which are collaborations, right? So I think podcasters are pretty good at collaborations. I mean, we're doing one here sort of, you know, Rob's got the Spreaker Live show, a new media show, Josh's got a show, Dave's got a show, and we have an audience crossover all the time. And not that this show has big numbers at all, but it reaches the people that we want to reach. Let's see, Sean Han said he wants a platform like YouTube. So we always hear the YouTube for podcasting, right? The platform like YouTube to host audio files for free, good business model. So people are willing to do it and try it out. So is there something here though? Because we know that free doesn't work, Dave, but is there something to this where people, you know, I love try before I buy, right? And so Rob, does Spreaker have a sort of try it out? Yeah, we do, yeah. So we do have a free plan. It's very limited though. I mean, you can't even get an RSS feed with it, but it allows you to get in there and see the interface, see how it works, kind of test it around. There's just enough space in there for you to kick the tires, essentially is what it is. And plus also Spreaker's a listening platform too. So people sign up for free accounts all the time over there. Yeah, I mean, there are plenty of places out there that do the free. There's Wushka, there's All Sound, I think has a small, kind of like what Rob said, a free plan. You know, Lipson has a $5 a month plan. And if $5 is too much of a barrier, then don't start podcasting. You know, I forgot what blueberries is, you know. Yeah, it's the same with us too. I mean, it's five bucks a month to get an RSS feed and to be able to publish into all the platforms. So it's not a lot of money and that's for sure. And all the big players, Lipson and Blueberry, all support that. Was it Rob that said has advertising ever made a show better, maybe apart from Bill Bear, I think that's not true. So would an ad supported YouTube model, you'd basically be taking ads for the privilege of being able to host for free, I would assume. And you wouldn't have a lot of choice over those. Is that what we're imagining here would be the model or? I would imagine if they're gonna survive. I mean, we've seen a lot of free platforms just offer free hosting and then just die because they aren't ad model, they're just a, I don't know what model they are. I guess it's a drug dealer model where, you know, give you a taste and then hopefully you'll buy premium, but... Yeah, it's a dying model is what it is. Yeah, it doesn't work. I just heard an interview on Paul Culligan's podcast report. He interviewed the main woman behind Cast Box. Is that the name of the app? Yeah, yeah, that sounds right. And he was kind of saying like, why did you do this? Again, it's kind of like starting a podcast media company. I'm like, well, there's about seven of us already. What's different about yours? And she kind of said, it sounded like she was going for kind of a spreeker kind of, not spreeker, Stitcher. Too many S's in this Stitcher where it's like, you have the free stuff and then you have a premium. They're gonna have premium content that would make you wanna use that thing. And that's also midroll. Well, midroll is Stitcher, right? Yeah, mid Stitcher is owned by Script, which has midroll, right? So they have kind of that thing where they have bonus content on the Stitcher app. And I don't know, I don't, me personally, I don't have any content over there that I go, oh, I have to pay the, whatever it is. So I'm not sure what kind, if that's a great model or not. But I just wanna hear that. I'm like, okay, more power to you to try it, but so it's a spooky model. Yeah. The lack of revenue is really, I think over the 14 years has really held back the medium from a technology perspective. And I've mentioned this quite a bit over the last couple of years, but the investment in technology development has been stifled by the fact that it's difficult to come up with revenue models in this medium that can pay for developers and to pay investment into building technology breakthroughs. So would you say you're talking about revenue for podcast services? Obviously not for the podcast. I mean, like a great example of this is Stitcher. Stitcher started out, you know, they're just a distribution platform, right? They had a very difficult time generating revenue and they had like 20, over 20 plus million dollars in venture capital invested in them to build out the infrastructure. They struggled to come up with a revenue model. So, and ultimately they sold for pennies on the dollar to scripts and in mid-roll. And from what I understand, you know, they're applying a revenue model and that's that premium model that, you know, and but that's probably just barely paying the bills, I would think. So it's tough, you know, and that's one of the struggles that I had working on Zoom at Microsoft. And I'm sure it's somewhat the struggle for Google and a lot of these other platforms, you know, Spotify, whatever, to justify the continued investment. And we all know, I mean, that the Apple team's always been fairly small. I think it's probably expanded a little bit recently, but it's always been a tiny team. A small team, yeah, it has. Because it's not making that money. I mean, Spreaker, how does Spreaker tackle that? I mean, you have to pay to use Spreaker for most part. And that seems, you know. Well, we're a relatively small team that's scattered all over the world and we've over many years, we've been able to acquire hosting clients that pay the bills. So it's really as simple as that. It's slogging through the mud, you know. Dave can attest to this as well. I mean, what Lipson does is, you know, it's just a steady grind of, you know, getting customers, you know. It's not unlike any other business, really. And it's funny because as I look at my inbox, I see I just got an email from Advertise Cast. And here's a company that's kind of not completely pivoted, but they keep coming out with, here's what we're gonna do differently. Cause it used to be anybody could be there. And then it was like, oh, okay, we need you to have a certain minimum number of downloads. Cause it was originally, it was gonna be, we're gonna find the small guy ads. And all these places are like, we're gonna help you find advertisers. There's only one thing missing out of that equation. And that is advertisers. You know, all these people set these things up. It's a place where you can find advertisers. And they've got tons of podcasters. They don't have any advertisers. So it's kind of like, you know, to me that's the whole thing of that that, you know, and I'm happy to see more and more people coming into the space, but I think we need more, almost mom and pop shops to get in there and start, you know, really getting, getting into some of these niche shows and things like that. I actually did one for a while. I actually sponsored a podcast for businesses. And I was looking for kind of entrepreneurs, people that might be a good podcaster. So, you know, it's one of those things that I just, every time I hear, oh, it's another place where you can find sponsors. I'm like, did you find some sponsors to actually, you know, find us? It's like, that's what's missing. Well, and I also think here over the next year, over the next two years, we're going to see more and more podcasts starting to advertise on podcasts. Yeah. I think that's been bubbling around for many years now, actually, that approach. But I think we're going to see it happen a lot more as the top tier podcasters start to, you know, reach significant revenue. It's happened on PodSafe. I mean, there was like a history podcast. We had a couple of ad reads. So we did, you'd love these ad reads. I threw a handheld microphones that are not supposed to be hand-held in the back of like the Beacon Theater in New York. And we're sitting in what amounts to a bathroom space. And, you know, but they're getting advertiser, advertiser hand over fist because of their audience. And so they're different every show. But I heard it, I was sitting there recording it and it struck me. I was like, wait, this is a podcast advertising on a podcast. Now it was a history show. I think it was a history show or a trivia show or something. And so it was not what you would consider a competition but still it's a type of show that anyone who listens to that podcast might be interested in this one, right? Because it's a little more general to something a lot of people would enjoy. Well, that makes sense. The way that most people find out about podcasts is they hear about them on another podcast. So why not just pay to be, you know. And so we've always done that in terms of, I mean, why not do it organically by having actual content, bringing the person onto your, you know, but there's a, you can't necessarily always, you don't want to say, hey, I want to be on your podcast, put me on your podcast. Maybe you could say, if you want to be, if you want to be in front of the audience as opposed to saying, you need to interview me, you could say, I'd like to sponsor your podcast. So, you know, it may be a less intrusive way to say I want to get in front of your audience. Give me, I'll give you money. You know, I don't, I don't know that Dave, I don't know Dave would sponsor the school of podcasting on the podcaster studio, what I let him. That's how he's gonna siphon away your audience, right? Right. But it's not, but the, you know, that's the thing. We have over the years, you know, we have no problem promoting each other. So, Dave, give me some money, buddy. It's payday time. Okay, you know what? New rule, you're gonna have to pay to be on the round table. It's just that simple. The Australian dollar's not worth much, right? Sorry. You just have to give me more of them, that's all. But really, that's not ethical, right? It's not ethical. I don't know, ethical podcasting. To pay to pay to be on a guest on a podcast, isn't it? No, I missed the thing I signed, the ethics document I signed when I started a podcast. I can do what I want. Rob, it's a finger to the man. We're pirate radio. Do what I want. Yeah, many, many years ago, when I was more involved on the radio side, I had a couple of opportunities to do that same type of a show on the in-flight audio experiences like on United Airlines and some of these flights where they have this whole program where you can come in and be a host and you get paid by guests to come on your show that then are aired in in-flight. So I got in touch with them and talked to them about doing it. I was actually a guest on a couple of the shows that were in there and fortunately I got it for free, but that was the other pitch that they pitched me was, you can get paid like $1,000 in interview to do in-flight conversations with like book authors and corporate CEOs and stuff like that. And I just, I couldn't do it because it just felt, it felt wrong. So... You had to take a shower when he was done. Yeah, exactly. I just couldn't do it, you know? And I know today there are podcasts out there that are doing exactly that. And I'm not sure, you know, what's the ethical line there? I'm not sure. Does podcasting need standardized ethics? We're working towards standardized stats. And we ran into this, you guys covered, I think on New Media Show where, you know, we're podcasts being pulled, right? Again, 2017 here in the US crazy year and we've got some extremist people, groups making podcasts with platforms who have decided they're not gonna give you our platform to spread that crap. So, you know, do we, we don't have an ethics. There's no code. There's no, you know, is that up to the individual platform? What do we need to do? I mean, Rob, with that one, I think you dealt with that a bit. What do we need, does podcasting need something that says, you know, you talked about, there's no trolls or there's no, or that it's a safe place, but it's self-regulated safe, right? It's not, there's nothing. It may not always be safe, right? Or it may not be as safe as it is today. I think most of this is governed today by kind of what's called terms of service kind of documents that are associated with a platform. Speaker has one, Lipson has one, all of the major hosting platforms and distribution platforms have terms of service. So we tend to be governed by those documents. They're legal documents that kind of bind the platform to an agreed level of kind of compliance with laws and rules that exist in our society and our culture. And so we tend to enforce those rather, I don't know what the right word to describe it is, but there's a lot of filtering that goes on with the interpretations of those terms of services as it applies to podcasters and their behavior. I mean, in fact, I just came across another one that's that I'm gonna have to deal with that just came up, just came to my attention. It was mentioned in a news article about a speaker hosting a certain show that I'm not gonna mention, but is involved in the whole hate speech thing. I went through that probably about three months ago back when the whole Charlottesville issue came up. There was a lot of pressure that was being put on platforms that were hosting podcasts that were talking about neo-Nazism and white supremacists and all this kind of stuff. And we had to take some action on a couple of shows that were on our platform. And so, that's where the rubber hits the road, right? We have to get in there and interpret what's being said in these shows and how that is kind of controlled by the term service that we have on our platform. Because if we don't take action, we can be a problem. If we take action, we can be viewed as a problem because there's such a thing called freedom of speech, right? And there's another concept called censorship. There's another concept of what's right and wrong, what's legally right and wrong. So, as platforms and as content creators, we have to walk those lines and understand that there are risks with putting out a show like that that the platforms that you're hosting on may take you down. You know, I've had to do it. One of the beauties of podcasting is that anyone can sort of... You know, if that's the case, you've been taking that... You're not cut off. I mean, you can put it on your own damn server. I mean, you do... If you're hosting with a third party, it's a third party. It's someone else's platform. There is a terms of service and there's freedom of speech, but you can't yell fire in a crowded theater, right? So, like, you know, yes, it's a tough conversation. But as a podcaster, you have options. And it doesn't mean that not being on a certain platform is going to cut you off from the audience. I mean, this goes back to how do you find your audience? Like, I don't know, go to your crazy meeting like either there, you know, whatever. Like, so you're not... The medium is still open enough to put out content. And I don't think that, you know, if you were putting out content that a platform doesn't agree with, I don't think it's not the end. It's not like being taken off a TV or radio and can't get back on and get in front of your audience. There are ways to do that, so it's still an open medium. I mean, we don't have law. I mean, well, gosh, I guess you could run into some laws, but yeah, that's a sticky, that's a sticky topic. And I think that terms of service and place, and it's nice, you know, you hear that all these companies have them. I think that's probably how you're gonna have to deal with it on a one-off basis. I don't know. And ethics are always those things. It's kind of relevant to, I guess, each person. I mean, I had a guy on my show that I interviewed because I thought it was a kind of a weird tactic that he makes his guests. They have to go rate and review his show. They have to give, you have to give him a five-star review to even be considered to be on his show. And then I was talking with a new podcast, media host, last week. And on the front page, it says the number one podcast, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, number one, like, haven't you been out like two months? And he goes, yeah, but when people are on our page, we have to convince them. And I'm like, because I like to use these things called facts. And I was like, I don't know that he's like, okay. So, you know, that's where it's like, well, I wouldn't do that, but, you know, I'm not the ethics police. So. And at that point, it comes up, you know, it's the end, the end user. You have to be a critical consumer, right? You have to look at those facts that you see and decide for yourself. At some point, we're grown adults, so. Yeah. So, should I add a new category to our terms of service called fake news? Or no fake news allowed? I mean, this is really a serious topic. I know Facebook is trying to address this issue right now around content filtering. Yeah, and I think, you know, a lot of that has to do with Facebook, it's a lot about money and paid for, right? Stuff that you're paying for to put in front of people, as opposed to just posting it on your Facebook wall, because a lot of people in my family Facebook feed would get banned for all kinds of stuff. Now, all our Facebook feeds would go down. It would actually be nice. I may go back to Facebook. Yeah, let's work on that. But no, yeah, good luck filtering for that kind of stuff. It's tough, because once you start choosing, it becomes very difficult to say what is and what isn't. It's a very slippery slope. Yeah. But honestly, with that comes this stark reality that we're coming into a time where, what is the truth anymore, you know? Right, well, pretty soon I'm going to be able to put your face on a porn star and put you on YouTube, and you're not going to know the difference. I mean, there. Oh, I think we're already there, right? I mean. Yeah, we've seen stuff like that. But I mean, all this stuff has to fall back on the individual. Like we need to be smarter as consumers. Don't get me wrong. People should be vigilant in sort of creating a platform that's safe, but you have to be a smarter consumer. Well, I didn't ask. We kind of covered what Twitter thought. And so I didn't really ask what everyone else thought podcasting needed. David, you kind of said something. And I'm actually already forgetting what you said. But if you have anything else, we can throw that in as we go out here. What do you think podcasting needs? What do you want in the next year? Or do you think we need something to reach that next? You know, podcasting has grown incremental stages. We've had these sort of markers along the road where Apple put podcasts and iTunes. Boom, grow a little bit, right? We've got a mobile app. We've got smartphones. Boom, grow a little bit. And there's always these incremental steps. Is there another incremental step you think we need? Is there something you need? Yeah, I'm with you. I think it'd be nice to see Google as a player. I mean, because there are things that you come up and say it'd be great if there was another sort of big website that promoted independent podcasters. But every time you come up with that idea, if somebody comes up with a new, I forget there were a couple that came out this year, they all have the same shows at the top. It's this American life. It's, you know, any kind of ranking system or something that's built to promote shows. And then as we've all said, none of us would use that site. We all, so it's one of the things like that'd be great to have except nobody's really, you know, nobody's using Apple. That's the biggest one right now. So that's a, it's an interesting idea, but I don't think in reality it would work. So I'm not sure, I guess we all just need patience. The number one thing that I want or think the space that uses more listeners. Yeah. Right. But how do we achieve that? That's the ten thousand dollar question there, sir. I'm actually thinking of going to either. Well, what do you want? What do you, what do you, I mean, we don't. Do we need millions of listeners? Yeah, always. We can always get more. But what do you mean? When you say we need listeners, what kind of numbers are you talking about yesterday? Well, really, this stems from my my concern, my longstanding concern that the rate of content creation is exceeding the the rate of listener growth. But is content creation that actually sticks around? Right. The shows are created every day and three episodes later they're done. Right. But so the shows that's the content that is reliable, it sticks around for years. Is that really outpacing listenership? Do we even know that? It's a good question. It feels it feels like in our bubble on this side of the the hangout, like it it there shows. There's just infinite number of shows being created every day and you see a lot at Spreaker because you have one platform that to aggregate those. But I don't know. Do we know the numbers of listeners versus shows and all that kind of stuff? Well, I think we we have. Fairly basic knowledge of this. I think also there is, like you were saying, there is a cycle of shows that come in and out, PodFade, that that kind of keeps that market equilibrium, I think, somewhat in place. Well, and I think we're we're at like 20 something percent of at least the U.S. population, I think, listens to podcasts on a monthly basis. That's the number we want to see go up and it always has. Right. Mm hmm. Slowly. Yeah. Nothing's ever going to change that. Do we really think anything's ever going to change our pace of growth? It doesn't appear to. It's always. Yeah. Two or four percent. Do you think there's a threshold where it's just like, boom, like we hit 40 percent and now it's spreading like crazy because we have 40 percent of population talking about it. Do you think there's a ceiling? Like there's only a certain amount of people are going to listen to public radio, a talk radio. Well, I think that what we're going to see over the time span here over a longer time span is that fewer people spending time with radio and more people spending time with the on-demand side, the digital side, which is podcasting. Sure. So this evolution is happening and radio is a little panicked right now because they can see handwriting on the wall. That this is the evolution of their their medium that's it's not going to be like it has been for the last 30 or 40 years. But what we see what we see new people who start consuming audio who wouldn't necessarily who aren't consuming audio now. Right. So there's plenty audio on the radio to consume, consume. There's talk radio, right? And there's just a certain amount of people who are not going to listen to talk. But do you think we're going to see a growth in the adoption of essentially spoken word content? Listeners. Yeah, because yeah, I think I think we are going to see that. And I think the good thing about young people is they tend to get older and older people tend to connect more with spoken word audio. That's that's the pattern. So so I guess we're coming into another generation. It's the millennial generation that's pushing through that's going to be the biggest population group, right? That's in the certain age group that is is starting to prove out to be very strong spoken word audio listeners. And that might be what's interesting to me about the YouTuber starting podcasts, because I think they're converting a certain type of person who who is consuming video content. And then they're they're starting podcasts and because they're so popular, people are following them over there and being like, oh, you know, I like this. I like this audio only format as well. But again, it's only going to go over a certain amount. Well, and as those younger people that had lots of time to spend looking at YouTube videos when they were younger, when they weren't working, the other thing about young people is they get older and they get jobs. And then they're they're in the car commuting to work or they're spending more time working or they're doing other things or having families. So they're they're time they have less time to watch videos. And what they can do with podcasting because podcasting is a lot more opportunities to consume content in the car and the train on the bus. While they're at the gym, while they're mowing the lawn, there's just a lot of other places that this content can be consumed. I think the reason that will birth new audio listeners, people who wouldn't consume audio before, is hopefully because of the niche of podcasting, the deep dives and serving content that you weren't going to get from from somewhere else. And clearly that content has to be there to get them to experience podcasts while they're doing all those other things. So we need to have that. We need more diversity and still more gender, gender equilibrium. We need that stuff to happen because we need to bring. So that's just it, isn't it? We have a certain audience, but we need more minorities. We need more of everything, which means we need content that speaks to every person. Everyone, right? Yeah. And Robin mentioned how it was so good. I left my mind, but basically how radio was afraid. And this week, I went out the other night without my phone. I actually had to listen to radio in the car and I was thought it was interesting because I heard a commercial on radio promoting radio. How we, AMF from radio reaches more people than TV and yada, yada, yada. And then I get home and I turn on the TV and there's spectrum going, hey, millennials are leaving and watching videos and things like that. And it was some company that we can help you reach your target audience if you're used to advertising on TV. So it was kind of a weird, like everybody's trying to grab that, those advertising dollars, because they're leaving, they're not leaving. They're just going to different places. So everybody's trying to promote how we're still the best ones here. And I'm like, for now, but hang on. Is radio actually in trouble though? I mean, like, are they going to transfer? Is radio going to make the jump over the podcast or digital? Or do we really think it's going to... Not at all. The honest to God answer to that is that a percentage of them will. Sure, and that's anything, right? I mean, that's anything you expect. But not all, not all. Well, Josh still has good radio. Yeah, it's... I mean, obviously it's probably seen some decline, but the radio here, particularly the commercial stations and more so the ABC, which is probably our version of the CBC or the BBC, have been very active in promoting podcasts. The downloads are fast. The artwork's great. They have consistency of release. And more so the commercial stations. They talk about openly during their programs their podcasts on a regular basis. So they're not trying to hide it in the corner and protect the mothership quite so much. So it might be on a decline, but they're kind of moving their own audience into the podcast if they don't want to stay with broadcast. So, yeah. Yeah, I've seen that more too, I think, with the big radio networks. I mean, even IHeartRadio is a good example. They have a podcast guy now that's dedicated to creating original content and converting station level shows over to podcasts. I mean, that's his full-time job. So it's definitely moving in that direction. Radio is embracing podcasts more and more, though for many in the radio industry it's pretty reluctant to move. I think it's a generational shift that we're seeing happen there. Can podcasts fill what people get from radio? So does radio still do something for people that podcasting can't do? I mean, you have the local element, right? I can flip it on the car and I get stuff that's extremely hyper-local to me. In Australia, it's probably more so about the premier comedians in our country all have a place on radio on a regular basis. And the amount of money that they earn is they wouldn't be able to replace that easily if they just switched straight over to podcasting. If you just took that pool of talent and put them somewhere else because many of the big radio people here are multimillionaires and are on these huge contracts. So I think that you're getting an extreme cluster of talent in Australia that all exists on radio at once. So it's probably not really analogous to any other country really in that respect because we're such a small market but we have so many premier comedians on the radio at once. So I mean, it's probably more a question for you guys. Is that consistent across the U.S. as well or are comedians already moving away from radio? Safe to say comedians have already moved away from radio. Yeah, I wouldn't know where to get a comedian on a radio. I mean, you've got the shock jock who tries to be a comedian and it's absolutely horrible, right? So but there are no comedians. There's not, I mean, you know, that's what we've seen. That was one of the waves. We've had several waves of genres in podcasting and the comedian wave was the last few years, right? Like six years ago. Yeah, it was that long. It goes fast. Yeah. The podcast moves slow but time goes fast. Yeah. If I hear a comedian now, it's somebody who's hating life because it's 6.30 in the morning and they're going to appear at Chuckles and they're on with the Morning Zoo people who are... Oh, yeah. That's cool. And you could just tell them they're like, get me off this thing. I mean, my favorite was Mark Marin was in town and the Morning Zoo did a thing where they had their host and their crew drink milk until they threw up. They threw up into a container and then they rigged a leaf blower to where you could pour the milk into the leaf blower and it would blow it back into their face. And so they're doing this stunt. Now think about how visual that is and it's radio. I know what I was just going to say. And they dump the stuff in it and instead of it blowing into the person's face, it blows out the top of the leaf blower and goes all over the ceiling. So they're coating their ceiling of their studio with barf. Can we do that next round table, by the way? Because I guarantee your numbers go up. Mark Marin is like, I'm not going in that studio because there's like a little... They have mics in like the engineer's studio so they can participate in the show. And Mark's like, no, I'll stay over here on the side of the glass. We did that and they got Mark Marin. Now I know what we're doing wrong. That's right. Everything's changing next day. The barf cannon is coming out next week. Yeah, exactly. Josh, what is podcasting need for you or in general? What do you think? Well, for me personally, I just need to... I've had this idea of trying to work with my local media and when I travel away to these pop culture conventions because my shows are kind of nerdy and trying to be the contact on the ground for those people. So trying to call in and get a spot on the morning radio shows around where I live and trying to get articles back into the paper about trying to be the reporter from our version of Comic Con and a festival called Supernova. And that's just going to take a little bit intestinal fortitude on my behalf to actually reach out and make those contacts. So it's interesting though that you're trying to fun... You're trying to sort of use it as a vehicle to get back into what we would call traditional media. I'm also trying to leverage the audience that they still have there that maybe particularly like with say radio that there's got to be a group of people there that they're exposed to it but they don't really want to be listening to it. People in public places or on the bus or at work in the morning, that sort of stuff where maybe they're hopefully going to hear someone that's a little bit more like them calling in. I have a question for you since you're in another country. Do you... Is there a lot of uptake of the popular shows in the US in... Well, where you're at in Australia? Or is it Australia's top charts are almost all different than what would the US top charts would be? You might not even know but all of the top shows you hear about us go on about all the time. There's also big over there. All of the big comedy shows and just audience culture shows are all massive here but we've also got the ABC which is a world class. I'm not sure if you guys have ever heard one of their shows but... I'm just saying are there big American podcasts the ones that typically hit the top 10 of iTunes? Are those big in... I'll show you. Outside of the ABC, they're the biggest still but the biggest shows here are shows like The Dollop which have an American connection and an Australian connection because those guys from The Dollop are best friends with one of our most famous comedians and he gave them a launch into Australia. I mean they just sold out to us here and all this crazy stuff. The only reason I know about that show is because someone on Love and Mention did and they're touring right behind us. There was The Dollop was coming in to the theater to have sold out 3,000 persons. So American shows that are Australia friendly things like Huck or History because we're talking about wars that Australia was also part of. They're all massive. So the reason I'm asking is I'm thinking does podcasting need more crossover? Right? Do we need to be able to reach beyond our literal borders? Is there something there? Do we see... Do shows transcend country? Do we have shows that are we talking about? I don't know. What do you guys think? I mean Rob, do you see shows that are successful globally? Yeah, so the typical formula that you see with this is many shows. I mean if you look at... Let me back up and just look at Apple. Apple includes all the English speaking podcasts into all of the English speaking countries around the world and then they add in the local podcasts, the country specific podcasts like all of the shows that are from the ABC radio network down in Australia are included in the Australian catalog. But all of the English stuff from the US is also included in their catalog too. So that's a pattern that you see across the world with podcasts. So it's a common language orientation more... Do we get that here in the US? Am I going to get top ABC shows in Australia? Am I going to get that in the US? But do they pop up to the charts? Probably not. No. So what you see on the flip side of this is that oftentimes the top shows in Australia or in the UK or Canada or whatever, there's a sprinkling of local shows that are in that top list. But a lot of the shows that are popular are like what has been said here are from the US. But there's a sprinkling of local programs that are popular there. If you look at it from a content creation and listening side just generally in these countries, the vast majority of the listening is happening to US content. And so the local content that's coming out of those countries, if it's in a local language, if it's in like... So if we're talking about Germany, oftentimes a lot of Germans will speak English. So they'll listen to English-speaking podcasts because it's a second language to them. But the content that's created in Germany is typically in German and it's typically only created and listened to within Germany or from people that maybe are accessing that German catalog that speak German. You see any podcast that transfer their show over to other languages? Everyone's always talking about transcripts. Do we need... Yeah, I think you're talking about a show that is maybe available in German, Spanish, and English. Those are rare. It's being done. Do we need it? I do know that some shows out of China will do a version in Chinese and a version in English. So there is a certain amount of that that goes on. But if you think about it, most of the people that create content in these other countries, that local language, the German or the Chinese, is their native tongue. So they're going to be more likely to create a podcast that's in that native tongue. And that's what I'm thinking. I'm curious. Podcasts, it's so host-driven. But you've got what is it the show that's big here? We have so many shows. You know, even watch House of Cards, people say, oh, did you see the British version? But we rip off a lot of British shows, right? And that's not a different language, but we rip off different country shows where people have never seen it before and we take the same storylines. But I'm wondering, could you find... Could you take a popular show in the US and team up with a person in another country who speaks in our language who is also charismatic? And could they carry that mantle or that brand in and grow? I mean, at that point, well, I know. I mean, if you've found a great show, but you want to bring it to another country, team up with someone else in that country who's like you or has a personality. And I'm trying to think, you know, that's an interview show with a comedian or something. Team up with a really great comedian in that country. And instead of sort of creating something from scratch, kind of go with what works. I'm just trying to think of... You know, we always talk about... I always talk about how podcasting is amazing because it's a global medium. But is it really global? I mean, do we transfer over from country to country? Or is it everyone sort of off in their own little corner doing their own thing? I think it does tend to be a little bit one directional at this point. It's the English content is the one that's being consumed the most on the global basis. And it's just because... I mean, it's just other countries are just slower. I mean, there's probably... What's the next biggest country in podcasting? I mean, like consumption wise, the amount of people consuming podcast in another country. It'd be Brazil, but not in China. Just based on the number of population. Well, it depends on the show. I've seen it where it can be Canada and Australia. It can be number two. I've seen that the UK pop up as the number two listening destination or listening source. But you're right. I mean, if you look at the kind of overall market itself, the global market itself, those huge population centers, India, China are growing in Brazil. There's a huge burst of podcast creation and consumption going on down in South America right now. Yeah, we talk about how we want cheaper hosting or better price gear, but podcasting is probably the cheapest form of media to get involved in, right? So you would think in any country, there's a lot of opportunity to get into podcasting and spread a message, whatever that is. I don't know. Do we just need more? We need podcast ambassadors to get in there. That's it. And it's also the cheapest to consume. That's what I mean. It's cheap as a whole in general. Yeah, it's cheap to make. And I know bandwidth can be expensive. Some people have very limited bandwidth. But there's Wi-Fi. There are ways to get stuff that is cheaper than cable or buying a newspaper or social is fairly cheap. That's a communication method. Yeah, and I think in other countries around the world, people look at this medium differently than we look at it. And a really great example that I was in Barcelona, Spain, about two and a half years ago. Speaker had a retreat there. And Speaker put together a meetup in a restaurant in Barcelona. And a bunch of local podcasters came to that meetup. A lot of them spoke Spanish. And I didn't speak Spanish. But I know that what was talked about, because it was translated to me, is that there's shows that are being produced in Spain that are eight to 10-hour episodes. Give some context here. What's being produced is like a talk personality, not unlike what we have here in the U.S. with a shock jock, that type of personality. We'll do an eight-hour nonstop episode. And that episode will be listened to anywhere from 10 to 30,000 times. So you're talking about 10 to 30,000 downloads of an eight to nine-hour episode. And you know where this is mostly being consumed is in manufacturing facilities where workers are doing very repetitive jobs. And people are listening to this as entertainment while they're doing assembly of parts, or they're doing sewing, or they're doing... You can just imagine these huge kind of sweatshops of people producing all sorts of things that are just sitting around all day and they're plugged into listening to an eight-hour podcast. So that's what they were talking about at this meetup as a big trend that they were seeing with podcasting in Spain. So anyway, it kind of gives a little bit of a different perspective on how this medium is being used. Yeah, lots to learn, especially from other markets. And it might be... I talked about stealing content. Americans steal a lot of shows from other countries and create hits. Maybe you can do it with your podcast. Go find a podcast that's super popular in another language and see what they're doing, and see if you can put a spin on it. I'm not saying to steal it, but you know, people are always looking for, how do I make something successful? Maybe don't reinvent the wheel, go out there, and see what's working, and see if there's a way you can bring it to an audience in your language, and see if it lands with you. Not just to do it, you won't survive. And don't be concerned about how long it is. Yeah. As you've heard, do what makes right, what's right for your audience, and what's right for you as a podcaster. Don't limit yourself to some random number of... It's got to be 20 minutes every episode. I think that's a mistake. We are way over budget on this one, and that's because there is no time budget. I absolutely despise time. Hey, we got to get out of here. Really? Because who's going to turn off the switch, buddy? That's true. I mean, other than, you know, I'll just make this file 32 kilobits a second, and I can fit it in my hosting. Forget the audio quality. I used to do that for a long time. That's what my show was delivered. Make it smaller and smaller to fit it in your hosting space, your $5 plan, whatever it takes. All right, well, we will head out of here, because in a live show it is a little different. I do like to let people go, but I want to thank everybody. Eric Bangs. Timothy, what's up? Timothy showed up. Scott, Chris. A lot of people hanging out for a long time in the chat. It's a lot of good stuff there. So the chat's always below the live video at podcastersroundtable.com slash live, but where you want to go, if you're still listening to this, you are the type that would go to podcastersroundtable.com slash guest, sign up, and we can bring you on onto a round. And we'll get Josh back when he has moving images here, but, you know, most people will listen to the audio only. You know, someone asked me today something about, is it worth doing, I think, the YouTube or something like that. And I said, I only do it this way, because it makes it easy to connect with everybody. And the, oh, he was asking about, because this comes out way before the audio comes out. And, you know, is there any benefit or does it hurt the show to come out early? And this is for the super fan. Like anyone who's watching this, I'm, you know, you can have it early if you're here participating and watching live. That's a bonus, but most people will never see or hear this portion. So it doesn't really affect the audio podcast at all. People come here as a sort of a bonus when they can. So, yeah, I mean, do what you can, produce an episode. If this is, if you have to use a platform that makes it easy to connect with your guest. And, you know, even if I was to rip the audio out of this YouTube, which I don't, it wouldn't be as good as you would typically hear us say to use or I would say to use, but I'm fine with it. As long as like we can hear what you're saying. So don't let those barriers stop you from getting into podcasting. But yeah, we will see you next time. Let us know where we can find your show, Dave. And thanks for, thanks for filling the co-host seat once again. And, and we'll, Daniel is not here today, but hopefully we'll, we'll have him back soon when he's back from his hiatus. Yeah, I'm Dave Jackson. You can find me at schoolofpodcasting.com. Dot com. Always professional. Thanks, Dave. Josh, thanks for your first round table. Appreciate you all the way from on straight. What time is it there? What day is it there? It's not even, it's Saturday at 10 past one in the afternoon. Literally talking to the future. I love it. So for once I can actually speak on a podcast. Normally it's really, really early. The body got really late at night. When my last couple of weeks shot. Yeah, last couple of weeks we've been on a Friday. So, you know, trying to mix it up. But yeah, thanks again. Where can we find what show you would you like us to find? I guess. I guess the new show. It's called Shinara world Shinara world.com. And that shows essentially about the Terry Brooks books and the Shinara Chronicles television show. Cool. And I will, I will link that up if you can't spell it because I couldn't spell it. We will link it up on podcast round table dot com slash one zero five. Excellent. And thank you. It's a real honor to be on here with you guys, obviously. I'm the idiot in the corner here a little bit, but yeah, it's been really a pleasure. So no way, man. This show is all about everyone's, everyone's experiences as valuable as the others. That's is it. That's what we're doing. And give that voice to every podcaster. That's why I love this show. I have much more fun doing this than my own solo show for sure. It's probably the reason why the solo show never comes out. All right, Rob Greenley. Rob, thanks. I can be heard in my podcast. I do the new media show with Todd Cochran from blueberry at newmediashow.com. And I do a weekly show for Spreaker called Spreaker live show at Spreaker live show.com. And if you want to reach me via email, it's just rob at Spreaker.com. If you have any kind of question or comment about podcasting, feel free to reach out. Yeah, for sure. And I recommend the new media show. It's one of my favorites that I usually listen to, even if I am screaming at my iPhone a lot of times saying, no, no, because you know, I like that you guys give your opinions and I have my own. So yeah, a show that makes you respond is probably a good show. It's probably why I come back. But if you enjoy this show about the podcasting space new media show, it's called new media show, but they deal pretty much with podcasting. It's its primary form. And we dip our foot into other things like YouTube, and they do that as well. So definitely check out all those shows. Thanks again for joining us. We'll see you on one, zero, six, wave goodbye. Try not to punch the mic on the way out. I'm not going to let that out. Bye.