 So welcome everyone here today and we're delighted to have an amazing set of panelists for our discussion and our exploration of open source program offices in EU government. Though I think we'll be hearing a few stories that go a little bit beyond the EU in this panel session which is fantastic to hear. And so I'm delighted to welcome you all here today, I would like to start by asking each one of our panel members to introduce themselves at Jacob perhaps you might like to start. Hi there, I'm Jacob Green. I'm calling in from Baltimore today. I'm the founder of Moss Labs, and I'd like to take this opportunity to most definitely thank the Linux Foundation for giving us all the opportunity to present the work and the collaborations that have happened so far. Thank you, Jacob. Sayid, you're also coming from across the Atlantic perhaps you'd like to introduce yourself. Hello. I'm say it's truly the city team for research data management at the libraries at Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore. I've been working with Jacob for quite a while now, and I lead the open source programs office here at Johns Hopkins. Thank you, Sayid. Philippe, might you introduce yourself please. Sure. My name is Philippe Barray. I'm a technical project manager working at the seat of Paris. Thank you, Philippe. Aster, could you introduce yourself please. Hello, everyone. My name is Aster Nomelline Carleberg, policy director with the Think Time Open Forum Europe in Brussels. And Neja, perhaps you could introduce yourself please for the audience. Hello, I'm Neja Lanois. I'm CIO of the City of Paris. Thank you. And my name is Claire Dillon. I work with Jacob in Moss Labs, and I'm delighted to welcome you all here today. And I know we know that the trends in open source have been incredibly positive in the last little while. But we have not heard as much about what the impact has been in municipalities and cities. I know that the City of Paris has had a large amount of experience with open source and has had great success with its project Lutess. Neja, perhaps you can give us some background information about your experiences with open source and Lutess. Thank you. The story began in the city of Paris in 2002 when the newly elected council of Paris decided to promote an open source strategy. And so they voted to share and to make free all of future open source software developed by the city hall. And they believed that public money should benefit other municipalities and administrations and therefore citizens would only pay once for the public code. And since this time, the City of Paris has continuously improved its OS software and at the same time has been making the source code freely available. And after having developed a very high number of open source information systems since this time, we felt in June 2019, we felt it was time for us to promote even more than before our open source strategy and applications. So in June 2019, we hosted an event with some of the key open source experts in the world, as well as municipalities, administrations to work together and to discuss what it would take for free and open source software to be widely distributed and used. We hoped that this summit would give an additional impetus to the OS community. Now we are in year two after the summit and we are contributing to various workshops in collaboration with universities and are partnering with other cities to scale tools and to share city services platform. As you know, one of the outputs of the summit was to develop OSPOS and maybe Saïd we talk more about it but since then GHU and Liro have already set up OSPOS and City of Paris is working very hard today on the subject. We are very optimistic that this will be ready shortly in spite of course of the difficulties due to the COVID pandemic today. Thank you for sharing that and Asia and it's wonderful to hear about your plans for the Paris open source program office. And I know that the discussions that you had in the summit in Paris has led to many collaborations from that community that were brought together there so thank you for that. Philippe, you have been involved in the practical side of implementing LUTES. Perhaps you can share some of your journey through that implementation. Through many solutions LUTES serves the city, have a bigger impact on citizens. I will not name all of our 250 digital services that are available of course for the Parisians but for instance participatory budgeting is a digital service that was launched in 2014 and that allows citizens to submit ideas to improve the urban living environment. 5% of the investment budget of the city which still represents 100 million euros per year is made available to carry out the elected projects. So this is half a billion euros that this platform can help distribute during a mayor's mandate. This is how in 2018 seven elected projects were citywide, 173 district wide and 51 for more working class neighborhoods. Most of the projects concern the cleanliness of the city, efforts dealing with climate change by finding ways to produce energy and reduce consumption. Then comes public health, all kinds of transportation, sports, you name it. Another impactful example would be Don Maru which is a mobile application to report incidents into public space by uploading a photograph and a geolocalized address. Depending on the nature of the incidents, whether it is graffiti or littering, the incident is automatically forwarded to the technical services within the city, providers and private partners to handle it. So users are given updates in real time. One last example would be our appointment booking plugin which allows people being received for a growing number of subjects without queuing and register for events and which was recently also it helped make it possible for surgery masks deliveries. That's fantastic and I think it's such a wonderful example of how open source can have a direct impact on citizens. And can you perhaps comment, Philippe, about the benefits of why choosing the open source way helped you in your implementation of the test. Using open source, I'll just run through open doors, but it ensures trust. The very main thing for municipality like Paris is to ensure trust with its citizens. When you set up a participatory budgeting and a point booking system or a tax simulator, you need to make sure that citizens trust you as a city so that they use the service and follow you in the digital way. Open code means anyone can deeply look at how things are done, that there are no bias and that equity is guaranteed. Having control on your digital services help us reuse our developments. We're not forced to pay again and again for the same things. And this means that we need to always keep in mind how to build in order to be reused. And this is a very cultural thing here at the city of Paris. So whenever we need to launch a new service, we only focus on what's new and reuse what can be. So this is how the participatory budgeting could be made in only a few months. And this is also how on October 1st, the city of Budapest launched its own PB project by hiring a whole team of one developer for the integration and hacks. So in a few months only, they were able to launch it. So this is also possible when working on standards and how fast the upscaling can be. That's fantastic. And I know I have heard many of the arguments around how open source can accelerate development, and that's been well established. But that point about trust is so important. It's one that I'm passionate about. We have had our own experience in Ireland recently of launching the Ireland covert tracker app. And that was built as and released initially as an open source project, which was done specifically to build trust with the privacy experts and advocates in Ireland. And as a result, we had a huge take up among the Irish population, which I don't think would have happened without the fact that it had been made available and transparent to those experts to look at. And when we think about all the challenges for digital transformation today for cities and that building trust with citizens becomes so important. And but you also talked about that collaboration opportunity across across national boundaries and it's fantastic to hear about your success in in having Lutess have impact in places like Budapest. But I know it's gone even further than that geographically speaking. And so based on the collaboration that you guys started it that summit in Paris and Jacob perhaps you can describe how Lutess has had an impact in Baltimore. I'm happy to discuss Baltimore. Baltimore is about to go through a digital transformation. There are a lot of the digital services. The city is looking at at putting into place. And some of us were asking the question, where is the opportunity for openness and transparency where is the open source solutions available for cities like Baltimore to choose from. And what that journey led us to the folks here at in the in the city of Paris, major and Phil, we're, we're, we're, we got connected to them and we had a tremendous conversation about their project Lutess. And it seemed very fitting that the both the technology around Lutess bringing that ball back to Baltimore as a solution, as well as the spirit and the passion of to see it see a government so committed to bringing open source to its citizens to try to get that culture brought back and made available to to both the cities, citizens of Baltimore, the constituents of Baltimore, and the cities in general. And that led us to a tremendous partnership to really say, let's look outside of Baltimore itself, let's say not not can we do everything on our own. We are part of a larger ecosystem, and that larger ecosystem is the open source ecosystem that many in this, this community, many of the people in the room will be viewing this at the Linux Foundation, that ecosystem that we've that you participate in at conferences at Eclipse conferences, and at many of the open source community events. That is that spirit of openness and transparency that concept of community that I think translates very well to the what we're trying to do. And a lot of the stakeholders are been trying to do in Baltimore for a for a long time. It was that kind of connection that the brought us to the participation with the help of Denise Cooper to launch the summit. And with with the nation and the city of Paris in June of 2019 to really explore the idea of where is the where is there an opportunity for the open source community, the open source ecosystem, all of the major players within the open source ecosystem to come together and try to have a collective impact for cities in general. It was, it was an amazing event, and we've seen a lot of great work come out of that out of that summer, that summit. One of the specific outcomes of that and realizations is that what we're talking about when we're talking about open source is not just the collaboration between individuals around code. It's the collaboration between institutions, the collaboration between institutions of governments and cities, universities, and the private sector itself as a microcosm of the summit where we all got together. What we saw is we needed to find a way for that kind of conversation for an institutional construct to exist to allow the that that spirit of collaboration to really have impact and to see tangible results. The Linux Foundation and the to do group have been great in popularizing this concept called the open source program office. The open source program office has been this construct that allows industry to best interface a corporate organization to the broader open source ecosystem. So we theorized, can we then not expand that construct to governments and universities in a more systematic and structured way to allow these collaborations that we saw happening at the summit in June 19 in Paris to occur on a much more regular basis. And we've had a lot of great success from that we've created a working group and you'll hear some of the stories very soon of some of the other auspice that have been brought together through this. So the collaborations that were already starting to occur from this and to see how using an Ospo has made it possible for the collaboration around the test for both the test to get worldwide exposure and collaboration, as well as for groups that have auspice to contribute back and it's a real concrete example of where the open source ecosystem I believe can come together through a structured way of collaborating around projects and that can have such great impact to the cities of the world. I'll turn it back to you Claire but before we do, I wanted to mention the scale of the challenge we're facing. There are 32,000 municipalities in the US alone. 32,000 opportunities for the benefits that the work that Paris has done to be brought over to benefit them, as well as an opportunity for all of the work of those 32,000 municipalities to transfer back over to Europe and elsewhere globally. That's the kind of collaborative ecosystem we're really trying to foster here. I think that's fantastic because what we've you know when we hear about the benefits of open source and what it can bring to citizens in terms of trusted citizen services. Then really the question is how do we scale that and what I'm hearing is that the construct of the open source program office in the context of cities and universities can really help build those pathways to allow those collaborations to happen much more smoothly and more often. And when you talk about that scale of the municipalities from a US perspective, we know that they're, you know, again taking that then and multiplying it by the number in from a European perspective and indeed worldwide. You can see so much opportunity emerge from that. And sometimes it's just about helping it along the way. And I know that your work in Baltimore and has actually been linked from from a city perspective or a local perspective to a university perspective in the form of Johns Hopkins who are who are, you know, based in Baltimore, and say it perhaps you can then comment about how you're part of this journey and how Johns Hopkins has been involved in the open source program office movement. And I'd be happy to do that clear. Thank you for all the reasons that we've just discussed. We, we felt it was really compelling and important to launch an open source program office out of Johns Hopkins. We believe it's the first Osmo in a research university in the US. And for all the points about trust community scalability, all of those are really critical and essential in terms of why we decided to do this. It is fundamentally a new way of collaborating. So universities in the US, certainly, but I think throughout the world have relationships with new municipalities in which they're embedded. In some cases, the US has these terms called college towns, these are literally municipalities that, you know, live and breathe because of the university being close by. The president at Johns Hopkins, for example, has stated that one of the core priorities for our institution is to work closely with Baltimore City. The expression he used was as Baltimore goes, so goes Johns Hopkins. Really conveying that sense of, if the city doesn't thrive, then the university will struggle as well and vice versa. But what I will say is a lot of those kinds of collaborations tend to be along a discrete one-way model, which is where the university says we have all these resources, expertise, capacity, and we're bringing it to you, the city of Baltimore, in this one-time event, in these series of town halls, in these kinds of, you know, sort of specific interactions. What's been so interesting and appealing about working with tests and a local community center here, the St. Francis Neighborhood Center, is we have a continuous relationship with them. We are working in an open way using this platform with the community center directly and frequently. They are on our Slack channel. So when we are talking about technical issues or language issues, which, you know, from our perspective, sorry, we don't speak French, I apologize for that. But all those kinds of things that you really are typically behind the scenes, right? You don't think about those sharing those kind of information with the people that we use the platform. But we think it's important to do so. The OSPO allows us to have an interface from the university to the community centers, to the municipalities, to partners in other countries. If I had to try and do this kind of work through the legal arrangements that typically a university would work on, it would not happen nearly as quickly and as seamlessly as it has. So the OSPO has basically allowed us to tap into the capacity and expertise within Johns Hopkins, reach out directly to our partners in Paris that have developed the platform, and engage repeatedly continuously, you know, in a very dynamic and respectful way with the community center that we use it. And we believe by doing so, we are basically setting up a model and sort of an example that the rest of the city's community centers can look at. And in many ways, it's a different form of interacting with the city as well. It's very different if the university and the mayor's office have a conversation versus community centers where people are directly using their services. And many of the services that Nezha and Trili describe are universal, right? And Don Marou is 311 in the United States context. But participatory budgeting doesn't exist in Baltimore. But I can assure you as a citizen of Baltimore, that is something we want, particularly now. So while the results will be different, the needs are very similar. And the approach of using this open source ecosystem that Jacob described has just been wonderful. I think that's fantastic. And I remember hearing some of the feedback from citizens of Baltimore. And there was one comment that really stuck with me when they were talking about how the benefits of open source. There was a comment about the idea that sometimes when you're an individual, that sometimes you feel that like, you know, institutions sometimes do tech for you. It's kind of like everything's built for you and you're just expected to accept it. But they made the comment that they felt that your collaboration, something technology was being built with them. And that that made a difference in terms of their wanting to take that on and the value that they saw in it. And because their participation in that way in your collaboration was so valued that it really meant that they felt ownership of that as well. And I think that's something that when we think about citizen services, we would all like to see more of. So thank you, Said, and congratulations. And Astor, perhaps we can come to you now because I know that everything we've talked about here, these trends have been emerging over some time. But I believe that there are there are changes afoot or at least there are new guidelines and things like that coming from the European Union and the European Commission in respect of open source. So perhaps you can comment on the reports you've been involved in. Yeah, sure. Thank you very much, Claire. You know, as a think tank, working a lot on open source and open source policy. I have to say that there's just in the last year or so, things have been moving quite quickly and quite dramatically in terms of the conversation. And I guess I'll start off a little bit just with a kind of grand and broad perspectives of the EU and the European Commission to bring it back down to the level of the city, the municipality and the citizen because they're all linked here. And I would say that there's been an awakening in the EU, and among many of the EU governments. And of course, in the European Commission, you know, they recognize that, you know, open source is widespread, not just in the private sector, which, you know, that truth we know. But, you know, if you look at any public administration today that has any kind of digital ambitions, open source is part of the conversation. It's that is the reality. At the same time, the Commission and the EU is concerned of Europe's place in the world digitally. Where are we in terms of competitiveness and impact. And this isn't a world of in unstable geopolitics, and there are trade tensions there are identified dependencies in the digital infrastructure. And I would say that these three things have changed the conversation in Brussels, and in many of the member state capitals, realizing that open source. It's not just a conversation on cost saving. It's not just a conversation about like agile, good software development and connection to communities while all this is very important. Open source is also a strategic nature today, the conversation and the way open source is looked at it's, it's part of the conversations of the big digital challenges that Europe faces. And having said that, you know, we see indications of that in many of the strategic documents I'll touch on some of these, but it's really more than just talk there are actually efforts and things being done. And, and the first one and we're quite excited about this I think it's on the 20th of October, European Commission is releasing the fourth iteration of its open source strategy. And this, and now this is a little bit of EU talk, but this has been upgraded from an internal strategy of the of the director general for informatics in charge of the IT infrastructure to a commission communication. So this is a document in a strategy that touches every single part of the commission. And a lot of the effort in this strategy is going to be to make sure that this is a transformational document that looks to see how the work within the commission can be changed in the sense like so horizontally in the organization to really change the way of working with digital in the European Commission. So this is a very brave and big step in many ways for the commission really showing that they are are pivoting in terms of how they engage with open source. And then, together with that, there's also something that we are very, very involved in open forum Europe. The commission in January this year commissioned an impact study of open source on, you know, the economy, but also digital independence and competitiveness, and this is expected to be released in, I think, January, and just to put this a little into context, it's a big report. I think it's probably going to touch on four or 500 pages of deep analysis of different case studies countries, economic impact models, you name it, it really takes the broad picture of open source in Europe. And this hasn't been done since, I think, 2006. And anyone who's been involved in the open source base would probably agree that things have changed quite drastically from 2006 till today. So we're quite, quite excited about this one. And, you know, just to give some hints on the 5th of November, we're going to present some of the preliminary findings, but there are significant effects that we've identified already on, you know, the anything from productivity benefits on companies that contribute upstream to labor productivity, and just the, you know, open source contributions as a driver for startup formation. So all these efforts by the cities and the universities have a direct link also to the economy. And in that sense also, this is really awakened the European Commission's interest in the question. Then there are so many different things, but just big efforts also happening in Germany and a lot of focus on this in their conversations around how they're going to digit transform digitally transform the country. There's also all place into the COVID situation and the recovery funds, you know, the new presentation or the way the European Commission ceases, we're entering the European digital decade. And 20% and this is something like 150 billion euros of the recovery fund that has been going to be invested in alleviate 20% of this is going to go into digital transformation. There are deep questions about what do we invest in. How do we invest for something that moves your forward that does it, you know, maintains independence maintains sovereignty and open source is part of every single one of these conversations and this is starting to really dawn on key policymakers in Europe. So, and then you just bring this then to the conversation of the hospital government, because as this infrastructure of delivering some of the key things that any kind of open source related policy, coming out of Brussels, this is extremely important. There needs to be an infrastructure, there needs to be a network there needs to be organizational construct that can absorb these priorities exchange give feedback on. Make sure that there's not just a report coming out of the Commission, but it's actually something that captures all of Europe reaches the citizens. And here, what Jacob said is so key in my view. It's having a quote unquote standardized organizational construct that can speak the same language have similar mandates that it can talk to each other in a way that Paris and Baltimore does that they understand each other. That is key to to any kind of policy roll out when it comes to strengthening and driving your digital transformation, you know, on a regional level on a country level because the truth isn't this is also a of anyone who's a player in Brussels, no city, no company, no country and not even I would say that Europe itself can do this alone. There needs to be these networks of collaboration there needs to be sharing. And I think that you know coming down to to all of these key priorities of the Commission and its systems and how they work for encouraging sharing and reuse of software code across Europe to cross border digital services and government, all this, you know, open source and open standards, it will be key to all of these conversations in order to, and as well as auspice in these organizational constructs to create this kind of cross border interoperability, because the question comes down to scale the questions ahead and the challenges are massive. And if the conversations are not about how to also bring this to scale. And they're almost not worth having the right there in the middle I see the Ospo playing a massive part for how the public public sector can engage in this. And also then interface, as Jacob said with research research universities with companies, and, you know, all of this comes into for a city in a region. We're very focused on the day to day challenges of its citizen to also be able to through this network, start thinking and talking about that effort that is done towards the citizen citizens or the in the city or in the region. The human costs only using one. That's great. But in doing this work in this network, we can also start talking about building things that massive European and to be honest global scale, and that is how all this I think fits together, and we can actually, you know, this is the practical effort of actually walking the walk of finding ways of using open source to solve your digital challenges. Thank you, Esther, and I think it's so important. I mean you talk about the idea that no one, no one, anything can do it alone. But but even when then you take the speed at which we now need to respond which I think, again, things like covert has really brought that into sharp relief that, you know, regardless of even if you think you can do it alone, you'll get fast enough to be able to respond to today's global challenges so so that the idea that that that interface can help speed that innovation. I think it becomes incredibly important so thank you very much. And Asia you you've heard now we've heard from Astor about the the plans for Europe and the policy changes and that are going to be coming out in the next while. Could you maybe comment on Paris's policy moving forward with respect to open source. So from a policy perspective and as we have just said, you probably know that there are several key factors which are very important for all the open source community but for city of Paris. So the first one and Philip spoke about it is trust open source established trust and transparency between citizens and public services. Then there is the principle of when we use public money we should therefore as far as possible provide public code. And must pay just once for public developments. We also believe that sharing and collaborating between cities and administrations and companies private companies bring more progress we use saving money and so on. And working together enables richer smarter flexible software developments adapted to the common needs of the local authorities and the common concerns of the citizens. There is no point in reinventing the wheel technically or from the business point of view. So we all have the same concerns and needs in the for example the local authorities and we can share very easily our software if we have the will to do it. So in conclusion cities have their own means to regain control over their digital services, including cost privacy control. They must work together in the right direction for digital sovereignty and independence. And that's why what we are going to launch again for the current mandate which is just beginning. And as you know we have a new team now after the elections and our future digital road maps is going to continue all the work we have already done. Because Philip has spoken about Lutess but we have also other open source systems developed and which are very, very useful during the crisis. Like for example the botany plant management system called Botalista and which was developed with the city of Geneva and which is now adopted by other international cities. We have also developed a digital work platform for teaching with other local authorities and it's now used by thousands of schools. Primary, middle and high schools and this was extremely useful during the COVID lockdown in France enabling schools to continue their classes remotely keeping students in contact with their schools. And we must not forget the infrastructure point of view because we are also involved in open source. For example our default navigator is Firefox and we enable our employees to use open source office tools such as LibreOffice even if it's not mandatory for them because it's difficult as you know. For our technical foundation we give always priority to open source tools like Linux, Tomcat, Postgres, Ansible, Kibana for our elastic search for our data platform which is also developed on open source. So we spoke about the digital services for the citizens but the infrastructure domain is also very, very, very important. So of course our most investment in Paris was Lutas platform but we have to be more general and develop and also think about all the other aspects. Thank you. Thank you, Nezha. And it sounds really exciting and I'm sure we're all looking forward to hearing more about the other open source projects that you have in Paris considering the great success in terms of the collaboration around Lutas. So thank you for that. Saeed, you also heard Aster's commentary about what's happening in the U and of course Nezha mentioned elections, we know that elections are coming up in the U.S. as well. But when we think about from a policy perspective at a global level or from a U.S. perspective, how do you see open source and Johns Hopkins role in terms of thinking about how open source can actually help from an economic perspective? I think it's a really important point raised in terms of open source as a driver for broader economic development workforce development and so on. And I think that the United States unfortunately from my perspective doesn't have some of the national kinds of frameworks or certainly global frameworks that you've heard about from Nezha and from Aster. But the reality is that we do have organizations such as the National Academies of Sciences and Engineering Medicine. We have the funders, the federal funders that get together with your interagency working groups and so on. And there's active discussion in these forums about the importance of software. So there's been a lot of movement in the open science and open scholarship arena around articles and data. But much more recently, there's a significant deal of attention and energy around software. So we are looking at the work we're doing at Hopkins and that's starting to happen in other universities as well as possibly ceding those conversations, keeping a very firm eye toward what's happening in Europe, and basically making the argument. A lot of the arguments that we've heard today, of course, apply very much in the US. And I think that's true independent of what the results of the election might be, right? We still have to think about COVID response. We still have to think about creating jobs. We still have to think about collaboration solutions at scale. So we're hoping in the US, we do a lot of things bottom up basically the universities form an informal network in many ways influence the work of the funders influence the work of the policy groups. And we're hoping that some of the things we're doing at Hopkins and starting to do that universities can provide a lot of that, you know, feedback and a lot of that expert advice that can craft some sort of policy response as well. Thank you. And I also want to say thank you from Ireland's perspective. I know, and as Asia mentioned, Liro, the Irish Software Research Center is has recently launched their own open source program of us. And I know they are looking forward to working with Johns Hopkins on various different collaborations and programs. So it's marvelous to see all these connections happening back and forth across the Atlantic. Philippe, perhaps I can come to you now and just say, you know, when you think about the future and you think about how from an implementation perspective you're moving these policy things forward. And what what do you see in the future for your role in open source. Well, as I said, we have to remember that we strongly believe at the city of Paris that most of our needs are shared by any other city. And since this project was open source, we've made efforts to grow the community to reach bigger impact on citizens. By opening our code to other cities, we secretly hope that they will contribute back so we can improve our digital tools, thanks to them, and also unlock even more value also for others to benefit from. So one of the outputs of the last year's open source city forum is that we are now working with the Johns Hopkins University. And which is a great thing. And as Nezha and say previously said, we're tight guys talking to each other and making this evolve and very quickly because we speak the same language. So they're contributing bringing expertise on the internationalization of the solution, since we've had never faced it before. So we hope this will also help in a broader adoption by cities across the borders. In the near future, we try to gather collective intelligence work with ethics and for the good of all. We're in a context, as I've said many times with low and decreasing budget, where more needs to be made with less. So more administrations or governments can come along, bring their expertise and instead of having 10 different solutions do the same things and found it as many times. We can be maybe more than 10 groups working on the best solution for all of us make services more complete quicker to reuse and also implement. So this is what to expect from open source and once again benefits from what's already has been paid for by public service for public services. So we at the city of Paris do not intend to do open source just by throwing some code on GitHub and call it open source. So let's make the difference between noun open source and the verb open source. That's why we're actively trying to grow our users and developers community. So it is sustainable and scalable now. Having examples of new cities great, but we would need at least a few more to really benefit from the community. And I look forward to seeing more people get engaged and I know that your approach and the impact that you're having on citizens should certainly inspire them to also become engaged. So thank you very much, Jacob will come to you now and you know you you were inspired by this initial collaboration to to think about the idea of encouraging this, you know the setup of more open source program offices. Can you talk to me about about how that movement's going and if people are interested in getting involved how they might do that. Sure. Let's start with I wanted to start with the name of Lutess. Lutess is the, from my understanding from the last couple years working with me John Phil Lutess is named for the, the town and the area on which Paris eventually grew out of it was the precursor name of the city of Paris before the city of Paris was the city of Paris. And I think that's very fitting when we talk about where this effort is going from that town of Lutess. And I think that we've grown this amazing city that we is known the world over called Paris, a city that is known for collaborations on many fronts, including climate change. And I look to say, can we not have a similar evolution for the collaborations that are occurring from the faces of this group right here. These these nascent collaborations that we've set up these nascent ideas about Ospo. I really look forward to the challenge that the, the summit in 2019 in Paris set before us. Where does open source go what does open source look like in five years. What is that interface, how do we have impact within five years, how do we have access to open source benefiting cities at scale within five years. Hopefully it doesn't take as long as it took to for the town of Lutess to become the city of Paris, as it will for us to achieve that goal. Well on our way from from various some very practical think of things to get this going. We've Moss labs have convened a working group. We intend this working group to be a global working group to allow that that collaboration to build those. So we invite cities, universities and research centers to come participate in this working group as as a as the concrete way for us to get our work done, and for us to grow this this community collaboration of institution to really have some of the, the, the impact that Aster and Saeed and a job and others have said that that have painted the picture of where we can possibly go with some of the greatest challenges that we face as as a global society. Thank you and if anyone wants to get involved in this working group. Who should they email or how should they contact you. Well, the working group meets every two weeks and the the initial on route to that working group is to send us an email at Moss labs, you can the easiest way to do that is info at Moss labs.io. Excellent. Well, and I think that that's been a marvelous tour of the journey that you all have taken for the last year and a bit. And I just want to say congratulations to everyone because it's been the impact that that that collaboration has actually resulted in has been huge by all accounts on in everywhere herds touch so thank you all for for that. And thank you for participating in this panel to share your story. And I hope that everyone listening and can gain inspiration from this about the power that something like an open source program office at a municipal level or in universities the impact that that can have. And I do hope you'll join us on the next part of this journey. So thank you all. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you after and thank you, Jacob. And I hope that we will all see each other in person again soon. Thank you all. Bye.