 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Letter History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, your host and co-producer of these chats with Mr. Joe Angatti. Today I'm back on Zoom because we're still in the middle of COVID. It is Sunday, the 4th of October 2020. And I am here with Scarlett Sin, who's in beautiful warm Los Angeles. I'm in the north end of San Fernando Valley. Let's start right at the very beginning. You were originally from Budapest, Hungary. Tell us a little bit about your early life there. Well, I can only tell you about my very early life and then large gap and continued life. Yes, I was born there back in the time and era and regime that I thought would be lost to history. But hey, what's old is new again, apparently. So good old communism and authoritarianism and all that jazz and I just dated myself. But had to leave when I was two to follow my parents that left when I was eight months old. And if you're doing the math, they left a little over a year before I did. After many trips to local politicians, congressmen, it was with the assistance of a young age, Alfonstomato, that the path really started and attention was given and political pressure was placed on Hungary to release me. So my 15 minutes of fame, I guess, the New York Times arriving at JFK reunited with my parents. What was being asked of your father? In this restaurant that he had, you know, you would have journalists meeting with artists, meeting with politicians, meeting with, you know, all different elements. You would have the folks coming out of the factory at early morning hours from the night shift. And it was just a melange of all different elements of society. And so those in power wanted to know who's meeting with who, what are they talking about, what are they plotting, if they're plotting anything other than whether they're going to have dessert after their main course or not. And so in that situation, it is the duty of every citizen to cooperate. And my father decided that's not a country he wants to live in. My mother wholeheartedly agreed. When they left, how did they leave the country? They were actually able to leave because apparently my grandfather, or sorry, my great grandfather, worked in the Ministry of Justice and it was through his contacts that it was kind of back channel that they were planning to file charges against my father. So he kind of beat the clock on that one. And if he hadn't left then that following week, like literally that Monday the charges would be filed, he would have been arrested and all of that. But since that hadn't gone through yet, they were able to leave through the airport, just like anyone else. And by the time they realized they were gone, it was too late. Oh my gosh. And still, I mean, that's looking at the news and looking at what's happening today. I mean, that's so much of a far cry. And it kind of makes me feel like what did they or what do I even have to complain about as compared to folks who are trying to enter this country with darker skin. And from a different border, who are now facing considerably more harm and hardship. Yeah. But you mentioned when we were preparing for this, that you stayed in the US for a number of years, but then you ultimately went back to Hungary. Yeah. I'll face with the reality of no family in the States, I'm an only child. And family still there and the husband who left and was not under good circumstances and child entering that period of their life when children become difficult beyond measure. She decided that it would be best to be with family and we ended up moving back and it was something that for years I, you know, I held against her and I couldn't forget her for and looking back on it now it was probably the best decision that she could have made and I'm grateful for it. You lived, you were homeless for a time. Yeah. Yeah. So I ended up, I ended up leaving home when I was 16. My mother met a man who is no longer in our lives. Thank God. But at the age of 16 and reached the age and size and ability that no one was going to lay their hands on me. And my stepfather did it one too many times. And right before I left I, well, the time before that I warned him that you try that again and see what happens and he tried it again and I packed while he lay on the floor folding his child wondering what the hell just happened. Wow. Wow. But you also said a moment ago that going back to Hungary when you did, you now realize it was a good thing. Why was that the case? Going to Hungary after the wall came down and seeing what that world was like and seeing what it is forming into and connecting with my roots and my family and traditions and it's irreplaceable. Plus, the Hungarian education system is phenomenal. So I was really able to gain the ability of not just going to school but going to school in a manner where everything was contextual. When we were learning about, you know, the Renaissance and art, we were also doing the same in music class. We were also going through literature from that period. We were learning about history, what was happening in mathematics. So all of it was within context. So it wasn't just like blank dates and facts and people and dry and uninteresting. So it actually stuck. But you just mentioned that you've had the privilege of being able to extensively travel. And you told me that you did a life-finding journey some years ago. You visited amazing places. Tell us about that. This was a journey that wasn't really necessarily of my choice. I mean, I don't know. It's hard to describe. I'm not going to preface it too much. But, you know, there was a period in my life where I just, I felt lost. Just something that I had sort of planned for, hoped for, worked towards for the majority of my life at that point. It didn't really work out the way that I wanted it to. So I returned of Hungary and just sort of existed for the better part of six months. And, you know, you wake up in the morning. You don't really wake up. There's no real purpose. You do things. But there's really no hope to do things greater than the regular and mundane. Not really connecting friends, not really looking for what the future might hold. But still existing. And I don't know what took me, but one morning I woke up, went down, made my coffee. I was living with a friend at that time. I went back upstairs and packed a bag, some clothes, some basic stuff, and left. And so started the better part of the next year. Never boarding a plane, but going through Southern Europe, crossing over Northern Africa, heading back east, going through the Middle East, South Asia, and ending up in Southeast Asia and staying wherever I was long enough to just, you know, until the motive came to keep moving. It's because I have so many countries where people are like, oh yeah, have you been to, you know, XYZ touristy city or seen the monument that you're apparently obligated to see in said city. And I really didn't. I intentionally avoided anything touristy, which, yeah, there were some things I regret, but yeah, it was just about just going until I didn't feel the drive to go anymore. You mentioned that you didn't board an aircraft, so you went by sea? Whatever means possible, sometimes hitchhiking, sometimes bus, some of it boats, some of it foot, some of it horseback, some of it camelback. Yeah, just whatever got me to where I needed to go. What were the most amazing places you saw? Places that no longer exist in the form that I saw them. Places that have been ravaged now by war and devastation. Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya. I mean, I don't know if there's any particular place and the reasons why it would make it particularly interesting or memorable are probably not so for anyone just watching this and hearing about it, but they were for me. But knowing that I've been to places and I've met with people that don't exist and for all the long reasons. That talk about perspective. You also told me when we were preparing for this, in your life you like to do a lot of things sort of on a lark. I think that might be overstating it, but I'll put it to you this way. There are certain things that I feel my heart draws me towards. And that's one thing that I promised myself is whatever I ventured into, whether it be a career path, whether it be a relationship, whatever it may be. I promise myself that I will only do it as long as my heart is fully vested in it. I don't want to fill this with cliches but like the life's too short thing, but the life is too short. Why keep doing something if your heart's not in it? And I also recognize the astounding privilege in that statement and trust. It has definitely led to me not probably being as far along in certain areas of my life than I could have been. But I also don't feel like if tomorrow was my last day, my last words would be, I only wish I. Okay. Moving over a little bit again, tell us about your gender affirmation. Oh boy, something right into that one. Well, plot twist for those who, you know, have better things to do than follow me. So this didn't always exist in this form. Actually, at one point I probably looked more like you, Doug. And let's get into that for a second because there's a twist to that statement. But yeah, so I think now looking back and I don't want to like hindsight 2020 this that much, but I realize that for the majority of my life. I had it sort of like a white noise, like something just didn't fit right. No pun intended. And, and now that I'm on this side of it, and you know, it's still a journey just to me transition is lifelong. I finally know that before what I knew was happiness. What I know is happiness now I as a 10 I may have experienced at best a five for the majority. This feels right. This who I am now feels correct. And, you know, I'm not going to blame anyone else, but yeah, it sucks that. Sorry. It sucks that for for so darn long, I had to deal with the fact that I found it more important to please the ideals of others and the ideals of society on. Well, if this is what we gave you the card for then this is the door you go into. No, you can't change that like that's predetermined for you. And so, pardon my French. Fuck that. I feel like the ideals of ourselves are the only determining factor in who we are and what labels we wish to effects and throw away and even if the majority of society decides otherwise. Okay, so building on that a little bit. When, when we were more personal. I, I, I'd like to know more about your, your true feelings on some of that, maybe some of the challenges you've faced and difficulties you've had to navigate. I keep thinking that someday someone's going to look at this video and see you as an example of what they can do as well. What they can achieve. And so I'd like to know more about the more the roots of it, I guess. Are you setting me up for the role model? Oh, heavens. Well, I certainly hope, I certainly hope not. I certainly hope that there will be a vast plethora of folks that exist in all walks of life who have gone through their own transitions with without so much of what folks of my generation have and definitely those of prior generations who shoulders I stand on. Like I remember walking into the leather archives back in, I think, 2017. When I was there during my title year to support my sash husband for his run at IML and it was my first time in the archives and I remember walking up and there was one panel. That had, I believe, maybe like nine, nine different folks of trans experience that, you know, were intertwined with our shared history of kink and leather and all of that. It was a small part of me that was happy because at least there was something and then I look around the room and see all of this vast rich history of what people presume to be cisgender folks. We don't know for most of them because they're no longer with us, but probably correctly, and it made me sad that we're only just now starting to collect this history. So, you know, my own history, I mean, when I look back, I may have been like six, seven years old and I remember my parents worked all the time. And my first exposure to anything related to even trans was coming across the videotape, non-marked videotape, because my father would always record things and, again, dating myself, VHS, look it up if you don't know, you young ins. And it was transgender porn. And I remember just, like, not being able to look away because I didn't, like, my brain could not process this configuration of, but, but what's here is that, but, well, Netflix has an amazing documentary called Disclosure and you can look back and see, like, while, you know, gay men and lesbians and even bi folk, folks of sexual minority communities started, especially 80s, 90s, started to get folks that were role models, whereas one of my favorite trans women, Laverne Cox, would say possibility models, started emerging. We didn't, we didn't get that. What we got was, we were the tragic prostitute, we were the murder victim, we were the psycho killer, we were the laugh line, the trap, the punch line at the end of the joke where, oh dude, you slept with me. And so internalizing that and looking back on that, realizing that if this is who I was, my opportunities in life, my paths in life where either I'm a fetish object, or, or I'm this like tragic character that doesn't get to determine their own fate and will probably cross paths with violence, if not worse, at least once, if not twice, if not, and I think that's sort of the reason why it just got shoved down and hidden and I convinced myself that no, no, no, no, no. You just like to cross dress on occasion. That's, that's all this is. It took better part of another two decades, almost three, before I finally had that conversation with myself and stopped gaslighting myself. And I couldn't come up with a good enough reason why this is anything less correct than, yeah. And it's one of the toughest decisions a trans person can make is to live an authentic life, to come out, to be out in reality, because, you know, even today, especially today now that we're reversing even the progress we made in the last decade, you're pretty much losing everything, like the possibility of losing everything is very much right there in front of you, losing family, losing friends, losing a job, losing your living situation, losing whatever possibility for income you might have, losing healthcare, like losing your life. And I say that as a white trans woman. Like, I can't even imagine when when it comes to to my black sisters and my other sisters of color, who just like every year a trans neighbor members coming up again this November. It's another list of names that we read and names of people that we don't even know until tragedy befalls them. I feel I was fortunate. I had a partner who stayed with me throughout what I'd been with for a long time and what was seeming to be a cisgender heterosexual couple. I clawed through the system that denied me healthcare until I got the system changed, or I'm not going to take full credit, but was a was a cog in that wheel. There's a cog in the machine. When we were preparing for this interview, you did mention that trans people face best differences in the legal and social circumstances, as opposed to other people. Talk with us a little bit about that. I mean, what can I say that, you know, unless folks have had their heads under a rock. When when when the so called, you know, community the acronym community decided after prop eight fell and after Supreme Court ruled in favor of same sex marriage that you know the fight was over that you know we still got little pockets here and trans folks still couldn't get a job in 32 states without facing discrimination. They still couldn't have protections for for their their living circumstances. We denied thing we're throwing of housing for for being trans and not to mention the violence. Yes, and that still persists. Yeah. And, and, you know, I came out of the gate, not with this idea that I'm going to be this like fire brand activist advocate, what have you but when faced with the situation of like constant the looks, the comments, the, the, the, the miseducation, the authority figures, the, the gatekeeping, the denial that the, you know, being in a community or entering into a community that is just experiencing so much hopelessness and despair and this is something that since a child since childhood, it just, I have a visceral reaction to it. And so, as I mentioned before, I had the privilege of having a partner I had the privilege of having a roof over my head I had the privilege of many a thing, many a tool and to me, privilege is only worth something as if you use it for the benefit of others who don't have it. And so, so yeah, I stepped up I stepped out I did many a thing I made many a mistake I made many learning opportunity from said mistakes, but I wasn't immune to that violence myself. You know how I learned what it's like to be a woman and this is terrible. I went out to dinner with a friend, very dear friend in a part of the city that you would not consider unsafe by any measure. And I remember walking back to my car and there I was. I summer dress heels, feeling great about myself, not realizing that I'm a woman now and I don't, I don't get to do that in this world without looking over my shoulder without being aware of my surroundings. And it cost me that night. One of the things that I worked on the film, the Danish girl that came out a few years ago with Eddie Redmayne I was afforded the opportunity of working with him in preparation for that role. And one of the things that he speaks about, and that you can glean some real true understanding from these words. This is about the first trans woman back in the 1920s early 30s who underwent the first ever gender confirmation surgery. Okay. And And in her own story, the, the violence, the lack of understanding and compassion, the denial the gatekeepers and all of that. And we're 100 years later. And it's still here. It's still present. And not just in cisgendered heterosexual communities but in the so-called community of sexual and gender minorities. Even though we're lumped in an acronym together many of times the violence, the beratement the lack of understanding the formfulness can come from those who were all supposed to be under a rainbow flag together. So it's tough. It's really tough when what I know as community so to speak, those who have gone through some sort of experience of being trans, whether it's surgical or not, whether it's societal or not, whatever form they understand their gender as other than cisgender. There's not a whole lot of us and until, you know, fairly lately, we're not a community with a wealth of resources or acceptance or so. We got to fight for our lives like our lives, depending on it because we're often not that is the case. You mentioned a moment ago. Yes, you've made mistakes in this whole journey. Well, for example, what mistakes do you think you made? What are a few? And I want to turn back to a comment you made about, and I know this is not, I'm not trying to read into it or figure there was intentionality or anything that I'm trying to imply, but one thing that I become sensitive to is when people do talk about my presentation, my looks. For the most part, I can navigate this world as sort of cis-presenting or at least have enough ambiguity that most would not read me as. There's anything but, you know, she's tall, she's a little bit broad-shouldered, might be a little bit whatever, whatever it may be. And please don't tell me if you want to point out something because that's really shitty. Not you personally, but just general third person. Don't do that to trans folks. But this idea that we, especially trans women, have to be able to blend to somehow, that is the measure of success. So that is the measure of our acceptability in society. And one of the mistakes for me was I never, when I began my transition, like I said, I never had any idea that this was in the car next to me, that I would be able to have blending privilege, that I would be able to be in the world as just a woman, not a woman with an asterisk, not always have to be trans, not always have to be dealing with the looking over the shoulder, you know. In fact, that's how I, that's how I started my career as a prodom. That's how I entered the leather community. Me coming out to this general larger community didn't occur until a year later, literally on the stage at my competing for national Miss Leather. But the shitty thing that I did in those years, and I think I will never forgive myself for this is, there was a period when I, when I wanted to just be a woman, when I would consciously avoid sisters of mine who didn't have that privilege, because their proximity outed me. And, and I think that's something that I'm not alone in, I've had conversations with others who have gone through something similar, and it's unforgivable, like, yeah. So that's, that's definitely something where I've made mistakes. You mentioned a few moments ago, working with the health care system. And I think this is a very important piece that I want to make sure we thoroughly cover. You worked to eliminate gender reaffirmation restrictions from medical insurance coverage. Right. Tell us about that. Oh, talk about privilege and naivety. So, when I first came out, I, you know, I watched my fair share of documentaries, thankfully internet already existed at that point and so I did my due diligence and research and what was out there and what was available and what people were doing and so forth. And I also realized upon going into Kaiser number services, who I was with and sitting down and going very hushed home. Here I am. This is my name. This is my member number. And so probably going to need some got to visit a therapist to get my letters and all that because you need two letters to be able to access services. And then, you know, hormones and then they're probably surgery. What do you mean to you require two letters with. So to be able to start treatment at that point of any measure, even even like getting linkage to an endocrinologist for hormone replacement therapy needed to visit a qualified mental health professional and for surgery, it had to be to look from two of my mental health professionals because of course, you know, we being a mental health professional now and part of the reason I went after these degrees so I could stick it to man. They are better agents of our identities than we are. I would say that was not a small helping sarcasm. Fortunately, we're moving much closer to an informed consent model and not the gatekeeper model that was. But in my situation reaching across or sitting there with this member services person. She very kindly and condescendingly looked at me smiled and said oh honey, we don't offer any of that. I plan where right there specific paragraph, dedicating a whole paragraph to it, talking about how any type of trans care was excluded. Okay, and I couldn't understand what why this was further research yeah back in years past many years past certain things were covered other things weren't. But all of that got eliminated. And in fact, the designation under the DSM for the manual use to identify and bill for mental health conditions. We were listed as a disorder gender identity disorder fortunately DSM five change that still issues, we can get into that if you want but. But I couldn't understand why something that was recognized by increasing numbers of medical professional organizations would be deemed something that insurance companies could arbitrarily exclude. So, again, injustice, and I started doing what I could I figured out who that person's supervisor Oh God, I called the Karen, but I basically kept going up the food chain and getting nose and nose and nose and I realized very quickly that I'm probably not going to get any type of results or connection within that organization so what laws are justifying this or even allowing this and so what needs to change. And solely but surely building the connections and network and showing those that are already been in the trenches that no I'm not a fly by night person but I'm dedicated and committed and whatever it takes and so it took it took a bit. But looking back I can't believe that we actually thought that we were going to win this. But, you know, we did have some some pretty, pretty timely help with the Affordable Care Act passing which yet again might be pulled out from under us by by what's happening currently. The, the elimination of exclusions for pre existing conditions the anti discriminatory language, all of that assisted greatly. But it wasn't the final straw. So, yeah, I mean it's a longer story I don't want to get too far into it but we, we got the rules changed here in California, and since then, most states now cover it in some form or another Kaiser covers it entire network even. I don't know if Georgia, for example has changed the law but Kaiser covers it for their members there even when the law wasn't that. So, so it's a continuing battle, but it's it's healthcare. And there's no further proof of its effectiveness than looking at the the mental health issues that those trans folks deal with who want to medically transition through whatever means that means to them and are denied that care. The depression the anxiety the levels off the charts and being able to have the access to that and being able to live a life authentic in a body that feels authentic. Those issues no longer exist or exist in a far smaller level. So, yeah. You mentioned a change with the DSM five. Yeah, listen a little bit on that. Well the fact that we're still in the DSM is problematic unto itself, but it got changed the DSM five from gender identity disorder to gender dysphoria. And there's reason why it shouldn't be there. There's reasons why it shouldn't be shouldn't be because it's, you know, it's like it's pathologizing. It's still pathologizing to us. But the reason that it needs to be there is because somebody needs to bill for it. But when it was gender identity disorder. There were families that were broken up and custody battles lost to trans parents because the other parent could come into the court and say, Well, my partner, former husband, wife, what have you has a documented mental disorder. And so would be an unfit parent for our children and would lose custody cases as such. So it was a double-edged sword on one side. It sort of allowed us kind of a back door to some level of medical coverage. On the other side, it pathologized us and placed us in categories where we don't belong. What advice. Can you offer someone navigating gender affirmation. Follow your own path. There's no one true way to transition and don't let anyone else tell you what is right for you. Like I said, for some folks transition is changing a pronoun. For some folks it's a wardrobe reboot. For some folks it's getting an ID that matches who you feel you are. For some folks it's hormone therapy or surgery. And what surgery that entails. Even the notion that when people talk about the surgery, it's always around genitals. And I know that for them, gender confirmation is the part of their body that everyone sees on a daily basis when they walk out. It's whatever feels right to the individual. And it's not for anyone else to decide who is or isn't trans enough or woman enough or man enough or non-binary enough or even, you know, this, pardon me, but idiocy around being understood as a plural and get with it. You mentioned a little bit ago that you're an associate clinical social worker. Tell us about that. What drew you to that? And what does it entail? And I want to make a correction. I meant to say that you're not being a singular kind of plural. Yeah, so part of the path, literally my first day out in public as like fully embracing my identity was going back to school. So, you know, if you're really into edge play, come out as a trans woman who is definitely not having any sort of blending privilege and entering a school of about, I don't know, 5000. I would say fairly conservative minded folks in a part of this town that, yeah, I, in the process of transitioning, I met my therapist for the first time. He stole my therapist after all these years. A very lovely gay man because of course all of us like, you know, queers and gender non conforming and all of that have to be shoved to the one gay therapist because of course, you know, that makes sense. In this instance, I lucked out and I thought he was pretty darn awesome. And I realized, huh, the social work thing so there's the micro the mezzo the macro I could be a clinical therapist that does the work that he does and assist other folks who can't afford or can't get to that kind of care. But I can also have these letters after my name that of course in our society, you have to have letters after your name to open certain doors. But I can get through certain doors and change systems. Because ultimately, if you're not careful, even with the best of intentions, when you're only doing the micro may very well just be reinforcing the status quo. And that's not something that I wanted to be a part of. So the majority of my career work, even while going back getting my bachelors, getting my math centered around real work was policy was legislation was lobbying was doing whatever the hell I needed to do with somebody said no to my friends and my siblings in the community to make it so that they get a yes. And recently I've decided that let's get a little bit more lettering behind the name because whatever. But but also be able to actually engage in that clinical element. So, last year I got my certificate for just to start getting my hours towards becoming a licensed clinical social worker. So tell us about your entry to the kink community. All right, I was, I was wondering when we're going to take it up in it. Interestingly enough, I kind of the way I describe it is like, I didn't discover kink, it was more I discovered kind of like the words and acronyms because just like in the military kink community loves its acronyms for for these feelings of like who I've always been. And so it's, boy, I mean, actually entering what any semblance of like community was probably between 1440 13 somewhere around that so not that long ago. And I jumped in with two feet because not only did I start like going to a dungeon and doing that kind of thing. But I had gone to a class at one of our local dungeons here in Los Angeles that also serves during the day as a pro house for professional doms and switches and subs. And during the break of that class the lady at the front desk asked me if I had ever considered working there. Talk about on a lark said, well, no, but I might be interested. Oh, let me get a let me get you an interview with Mistress. Let's see if she's here. Next thing you know, a week later I was, I was hired and I worked there for almost five years. Tell us a little bit about your work as a pro dom. Being a pro dom, you know, people who look at what pro doms do or what have you. Many people have these ideas in their head and some people think that we're just in it for the money. I'm not going to lie, some people I'm sure they are but just like with everything else, I don't, I don't do anything for just the money, because that's how you start hating it and that's how you start having regrets and especially something like King and BDSM, if your heart's not in it, if all you're doing is for money, is your phoning it in, if your ego is what's driving you. Oh boy, it's just a matter of time until you cause some harm and that's something I've never wanted to do. I've met a whole wide swath of people over the years, both colleagues, clients, had the opportunity to travel through it, had the opportunity to do self-refact. It was sort of my coming into my womanhood and realizing my sexuality but also it was, it was confidence building. I entered that world with very, very few knowing about my past and needing trans. You know, I was, I was doing this work presumed to be says and accepted as such and even if maybe it's my naivete, I don't know but people usually aren't very good about not pointing it out if they realize it or somebody told them which is preppy, don't do that. But it was what I needed it to be at the time I needed it to be. In the mornings I would go to, I would go to school getting my degree in psychology and then going into the dungeon and learning firsthand. It was almost like practicum of human psychology and what drives people and what motivates them and what are their fears and what are their shames and what are their anxieties. Yeah, I feel like I got hands-on learning that no one else did, at least not in my class. It definitely made for a very interesting giggles coming from my corner anytime my psychology professor would talk about CBT. Any words of wisdom, any advice for people exploring that line of work? If you're just entering it now, seriously question whether you want to do it. The rules and laws have changed federally. Phostocesta has all but made it impossible to be a sex worker and do it safely and have a solid income. Make sure you have an exit plan. Make sure that that is not the idea that you're going to be doing thinking that you're going to retire off of it. Pay your taxes if you do because I don't care how big of a domino you think you are. IRS will make you his bitch. But the most important thing is be yourself. Don't try to create something that you're not. If you're going to go in there and try to pull off the, well, I'm going to be the big, billy, badass dom and you're just a sweet little thing. Otherwise, you know, you're a cute little blonde thing and you try to do the whole like Betty page thing. Guess what? There's about 20 other girls who probably can do it a lot better because that's who they are. I never put on an act. I was never anything different than who I am in life. For better or for worse, I may have amped up certain characteristics. But what you saw in the playroom during the scene is who I am. And it works for me. Not saying that's necessarily the trick. It works for me. But the ones that I've seen the most successful are the ones who really tapped into the core of their own being. And through that, we're able to really give their hearts with their authenticity. Because the last thing you want to do is be going into sessions and engaging with clients who know exactly what they want and realize you're filming it in. It's not going to make for good experiences for anyone. Tell us about competing in IMSL in 2018. Looking back, all I can say is looking back, I'm happy I didn't win. You're happy you did not win? Yes. Okay. And it was one of the toughest things that I've ever been through for all the wrong reasons. Everything that I've done, for me it was, you know, win, lose or draw, it doesn't matter. And in my perspective, obviously has changed as a result. But one thing I know, especially now as a producer, if I have a contestant who goes through one of the titles that I produce, I want to make sure that they have everything they need to be successful. That's not measured by who wins and who doesn't. But who goes through that experience and challenges themselves and grows and learns something about themselves as a result. And comes out of it. Maybe not the title holder, but as somebody who is a better person for us. And I honestly cannot say that a good number of our class could say that. And that to me is a tragedy. But you mentioned that you produce contests, Ms. L.A. Leather and you launch both L.A. Boot Black and MX L.A. Leather. What are these contests? Shea Flanagan who had brought back Ms. L.A. Leather just two years prior after a 17-year sort of dormancy. You know, I'm not at liberty to go into details and I want to respect Shea's privacy. But for various reasons, she couldn't continue producing. And I sent her a message and said, this is two weeks before heading up to San Jose to compete for himself. This title means a lot to me and it means a lot to Moon, who's my sash mother. I know it means a lot to Shea. Let me try and continue this. Let me do what I can. And she agreed and we came to terms that were mutually agreeable. And then I realized, what the hell did you do? Just became a producer. Oh, by the way, you have six weeks to actually produce this thing because the date was already set, location already decided and all of that. So with the help of Cypher, who is, as earlier mentioned, my sub and friend and the one who kind of keeps all the gears going and just couldn't exist without, I wanted to rely on her help. Well, guess what? At the same time, she was holding a feeder title for Mazzelli Leathers. So not only could I not have her help because she was obligated to compete for this title and it would have been a major conflict of interest. Also, at least that part of my life away from everything to do with the title. So that was fun. But subsequently to that, we had the first year. Someone else won and then that someone else had to be stripped. Literally a producer's worst nightmare, not the stripping part, the reasons for it and the ensuing just, I can't even get into it. I don't really want to relive it, but nightmare that just rippled through the whole LA community as a result was brutal. And I think certain relationships still haven't recovered as a result. At that same event that night when this person won, I announced that, well, next year, LA Leather Pride, we're going to be together. We're going to do Mr. and Ms. and by the way, LA Blue Black as well, all on the same stage. And I will never forget walking off that stage. I mean, I wasn't the one who single-handedly came up with this, but Gus Norris, who was the chair of the LA Leather Coalition and I kind of plotted a little bit and realized that after so many efforts and ways of trying to incorporate and so many women being a part of the men's scene and helping, there's no amount of baby steps that it's going to take unless we do something drastic, unless we do something really rebellious. This is not going to happen, the joining, the recognition of these titles together. So, yeah, I just went ahead and went up on stage and did it. And then everyone was sitting in the audience and no big claps and everything and walked to the back of the room afterwards and Alan Stroke comes out of the bathroom and I'm like, hey, so, board member of LALC, what do you think? He's like, well, fuck, you announced it, now we got to do it. Little did I know that that was going to be one of the roughest years already with that and then the whole situation with the title holder and like it was gnarly. And we finally got it through, we got it made, and it was spectacular. That was the first year, and unfortunately the only year that Mr. and Ms. and LA Boo Black, who I can't take full credit for, Stephen Carlisle and Shelley and a few others, kind of brought it back and really put the oomph behind it, along with Red Boo Black from San Diego. And so, yeah, that was the only year. Tell us about the Visibility Project. With Miss Los Angeles Leather and all of that, I had the opportunity to go to various events throughout the country and in fact throughout the world. And if you've been to one of these Leather events or King Gravenia, some events, especially things that are centered around some sort of contest. There's always, or at least most instances, there are flags present. Sometimes there's an honor guard, sometimes there's ceremony behind it. And the flags that I would almost exclusively see would be the rainbow, the gay pride flag, the Leather flag, US flag and perhaps the state flag. Maybe a small spattering of others of kink identities, you know, maybe a bear flag, maybe a puppy flag, not really, but you know what I mean. And so it didn't dawn on me until I read a post by one of our local Leathermen beacon. And I believe they use gender neutral pronouns, so I rewrite history and presenting the story that way. And they wrote about how when you are of a marginalized minority identity, and you enter a space, one of our Leather spaces, one of our King Gravenia spaces, where more often than not the majority is going to be white, is going to be cisgender, might be gay but could be straight. And you hear someone on the stage talking about our community and our values and our traditions. If you're not careful, giving that kind of a speech could have a fairly nefarious undertone to those who don't look like you and don't fall into those majority identities that you do. This is where visibility matters. This is where, you know, diversity and visibility and representation, especially inclusion are not stood out as bullet point items or just left service to. And it got me thinking of how it would feel if for once I could see a trans flag. And for those who identify with other identities that have visual representations, what it would feel like to have their flag present. And so I started a conversation with producers that I would go to their events and ask, Well, how come you know, we don't have this flag or that flag or. And I think it was at IMSL actually that literally we were standing there during our title years waiting to go up in the parade of colors, and they realized that the trans flag wasn't present. And ran all the way back to the other side of the hotel to grab a trans flag to bring it back to have that up on stage present. And so it was moments like that that really, really made me make the push, because the response I would get more often than not was either we're a small community or small event or what have you so would be cost prohibitive to have that many flags just for one event. The other answer. A little bit more problematic, which is, well, I mean, you know, how many flags is too many. Well, that's an easy comment to make when your flag is always present. Mine isn't. Yeah. And so, well, find a need fill in need. I went online and I started buying flags and putting the word out there that starting this sort of little from our hearts grassroots thing called the visibility project and what that means is we have these flags that I keep pitching about and complaining about and I know I'm very annoying and Well, here's a solution because I like to actually offer solutions and not just words. Well, how much does it cost doesn't cost you anything. But I expect them to be displayed at your event. Oh, and I'll even provide thanks to Cypher because she's amazing. So, you know, we have a couple of cards that attach the flags that list out what that identity means, whether it's, you know, an agenda identity, whether it's a pansexual identity, whether it's, you know, puppy play or pony whatever it may be, whether it's a sexual identity or gender identity or kink identity. And so what ended up resulting from this is we now have multiple sets. I think now we're up to 3335 flags that came with every flag. Yeah, I get excited that until COVID we're traversing the country. In fact, some even internationally going all over the place and it was just amazing to see especially events that I was able to attend and help put these flags up in the big ballroom or whatever and then they'd be this beautiful just mosaic of color and and and see people walk into the room who looked at this flag and did a double take and go Oh my God, my flag is present. Or the flip side people walking around the room going, Oh, I didn't even know about this identity. And that's one of the core elements of what spoke to me about why Leather is where my home was found where why it wasn't just the regular media center king communities or even the pro community that that that aspect of the cause greater than myself of the philanthropic history, especially in times of great need individual need or community need where we really come together. What's the biggest misconception about you. I think I'm still figuring that out. I think, while this this pandemic that we're dealing with that is just, I can't even find the words just devastated the world. It has also at the same time challenged me personally in many ways I had never thought of, and I've grown as a result. Oh, have you grown from it. I realized a lot of mistakes that I made realized a lot of misconceptions about myself. I realized that I was probably not as good of a person as I thought I was. I realized that the most important core value that I have, which is integrity. I wasn't as good at walking that walk, as I thought I was. That's a strong statement. The most overlooked element of integrity when I asked someone when I've had. I've been sitting behind a judges table asking grilling a contestant at a leather contest or just a personal conversation. Everyone gets right the part of like you do what you say you say what you do. To me what's even more important is it's not that you don't screw up. Everyone's going to screw up living your life thinking that you're perfect and one side step. You might not want to try it like that's the mistake. The most important thing to me is what do you do after do you wait till someone brings to your attention. How you harm them, how you hurt them, or do you recognize it and step up and do it. Do that process of accountability. Scarlett sin. Thank you very much. I'm overjoyed to include you.