 Welcome to NewsClick, for the past few months we have seen attacks on the Dalits increasing and there is also a change in discourse with the politics of the country moving towards the rights. And to discuss with us is Professor Amit Thorat who is a faculty at JNU, he is an economist by training who specializes on the issues of discrimination, untouchability and other urban issues. So welcome to NewsClick, Dr. Amit. Thank you, thank you for having me. You had conducted a study recently which was published in the mainstream media about the practices of untouchability prevalent in the society, though the practice of untouchability is banned by the Indian constitution, but like you mentioned in your paper that practice is still there in the minds of the people and nothing has been done about it. So could you throw some background on your study and how what findings you had about the study? So the survey is an all India survey, it covers about 47,554 households, it's Pan India, it's representative at national level and it's a big survey with a lot of information. We asked two questions to all our sample households, the first question was does any member in your family practice untouchability, yes or no? And if they said yes then fine. If they say no then we ask an additional question, would it be okay if someone from a lower caste was to enter your kitchen or use your utensils, would that be fine with you, yes or no? So combining the responses to both of these questions, we found that about 30% of rural households and 20% of urban households in India accepted openly by saying that either someone in their household practices untouchability. You mentioned previously that it was basically a poverty study that you were also looking and how do you were mentioning about how you studied the class angle and then for making it clear in the Indian context you studied the caste groups of the class, can you throw some light on that? So this is the survey which happened twice, once in 2004-05 and then again in 11-12. The uniqueness of this data set, it's called the India Human Development Survey, is that the households which we surveyed in the first round, we again revisit the same household. So you can effectively track the households over a period of 7 years. So we can find out whether households over a period of 7 years became poor, that is whether they fell into poverty or rose out of poverty. So we found that over the period of 7 years, poverty has fallen drastically in India. It has never fallen by that much magnitude ever. So nearly 71% of urban poor and 64% of rural poor, these households were poor in the first round, 2004-05, had escaped poverty by 11-12. So when you look at national samples of the data, we only see that poverty is falling. What this data allows you to do is, it also tells you, it just doesn't tell you who is escaping poverty, but it can also tell you who has fallen into poverty. So could you throw some light on the social categories of who escaped poverty and who had fallen into poverty? So we find that while people are escaping poverty, they are also falling into poverty. However, the shares of households who are falling into poverty is disproportionately higher among the tribals, which is 24% amongst the schedule cast, 19%, OBC 14% and Muslim 16%. So these are households who became poor over this period of time, whereas only 10% of forward cast households became poor. Just poor, unlike the West, they are not a single unitary category. Here Dr. Ambedkar said, the caste is nothing but the division of laborers. So do you want to share some things of how these laborers are divided when it comes to discrimination, untouchability, these practices that are there? So what you mentioned in your study, that though they might be poor, but also the belief in caste and their values is so high that they intend to practice untouchability. So as I was saying earlier, we found that about 27% of the households in India accepted to practicing untouchability. Then we were curious who are these people. So when we broke them down and saw their social belongings, we found that the largest share or within each community, say amongst the Brahmins, all our sample of Brahmins, nearly half of them, 52% said yes, they practice untouchability. But surprisingly, we found that among the OBC, 33% and among the ST, 22% also said they want to practice untouchability. Now this was a little surprising because we were wondering why this is so and we can only hypothesize. And we think that this is because as the economy is growing, there is more competition for jobs and with these jat agitations, etc., we find that the ability of a lot of OBC and maybe tribals to catch on to the bandwagon of, say, economic growth in terms of the kinds of jobs that are available, anyway it's a jobless growth, you all know that. So the competition for these small number of private sector job is intensified and that has led to conflict between the OBCs and the SCs. For the most forward cast as well, right? And them also because yes. So we do find that it's just not the Brahmins or the forward cast who are practicing untouchability but this is also seen to be happening among the OBCs and the tribals. So then do you think this is because of the notion of purity pollution that is ingrained in our shastras because your paper talks about the theoretical aspects, do you want to say something? I think yes. I mean, so there are other studies which also show that the idea, where does this come from? Why do people practice untouchability or discriminate against certain kinds of people? That is because of their belief and it's not based in any scientific factuality. So it's a belief which comes from myth and mythology and there is a notion that interacting with, associating with, touching with people with polluting spiritually and physically and it comes from this belief in the notion of purity and pollution. For instance, I'll give you an example, another study which I did with Dean Spears who was from Princeton and now at University of Texas. We found that, so just to give a background, 60% of all people who defecate in the world live in India and 70% of all rural households defecate in India. But whereas in Bangladesh which is poorer than us, Kenya which is poorer than us, only 10 or 15 odd percent people defecate. We are more educated, more richer than them and we are still defecating in the open. Why is that? Talking on that sense of open defecation and the beliefs, it's strongly that it is a cultural value. But then people also thought with the modernity coming and the new constitution being in place of freedom fighters thought that India would move towards direction of progress and change. But in your paper you had said that the social change is very, very slow and you talked about the purity and pollution are hard to be wiped out from the people's mind in spite of their education. Do you want to? Yeah, I mean it's strange how, so I think in many ways these ideas of who we are, what should be our belief system, what should be our values are something which we pick up in our homes and in our communities which are passed on from father to son, mother to daughter, grandfather, grandmother to grandchildren and this is intrinsically embroiled with your identity. And how do you break those belief systems? How do you capture the young to have a different idea about equality, about humanity, about fraternity and the only way I see it is intervention which is through public education or even private education. So, in schools if we talk about untouchability, we talk about caste and we teach children that this is a bad habit, this is illegal and this is also not socially desirable. At a young age it may have an impression. I am not saying it will go all the way to eradicate it because your social pressures of conformity. Children want to please their parents, they want to identify with the kinship group and identification means following the rituals, practices, etc. So, it's very difficult, it's almost like divorcing or tearing yourself away from your community and forming your own identity which could be a secular identity and non-religious identity and it's not easy unless there is a overall social milieu in your school, in your colleges where your people who are your gurus and teachers tell you this is right to do and it's okay to do that. I just want you to know, is there a regional variation to this in your study? Did you find across the states where it is more prevalent or say for example, where in some states the social movement might have been taking place for a long time? So, you see there is a change in the perception or what do you think? Does your data show a regional variation on the practice of untouchability? Yeah, actually you're right, it does. So, we find when we look at our state samples of the incidents of the practice of untouchability, we find that the practice is to my mind not surprisingly more prevalent in the north of India. So, my depredation above it is very high. In fact, Himachal is highest and it's very, it's lower. I wouldn't say it's very low, but it's roughly say about 20% and lower as you go below Maharashtra. And when you look at Maharashtra and Kerala in particular, it's very low. And we were puzzle wise that happening and there could be two reasons. One is that both these places in Maharashtra, you had the Ambedkar movement, Ambedkar was from Maharashtra and he was the reason for the emancipation of the Dalits and he had his own, the entire ideology. So, it is possible that in Maharashtra the practice is low or even if it exists, our respondents were politically aware to give an answer which is to say, no, no, no, we don't practice it. And Kerala also shows the same. But Kerala has been a history of the Dalits leading a movement and supported by the progressive population. So, do you think that might, because it's also one of the highly educated society. Left tradition in Kerala is also very liberal. So, I think at a political, personal political level, the understanding that to shun untouchability and caste identities is there. Now, does that mean that there is no practice of untouchability? I would not go as far as to say that because we know of instances where it happens. Dr. Amit, what do you think is the way out for the society? Is there a message of how people should get rid of this untouchability or say, the caste discrimination or it's a long fight? So, it's not an easy question to answer because there are a lot of the data which we have suggests certain things. But I would not say that it's all bleak because even if we go by the respondents, the responses we got from our interviewers, interview is I'm sorry, is that about 30% people say that they practice untouchability. If we agree to that and even if it's an underestimate, there's a majority who claims they don't practice. So, at the face value, it's a good thing. But at the same time, we hear these incidences of caste violence, atrocities, etc. So, are they just outliers or fringe elements who are doing all this? Well, no, I think it goes deep into our belief in who we are. And if you have people, communities, ideologies which fan these ideas, either politically that people are different, it could be a Hindu-Muslim identity, it could be within Hindus, a caste identity and want to make profit on it either politically or economically, then I think these ideas are just under the surface so that anyone who scratches it, you know, your bigotry comes out and it is spilled over in the society. And the way out is very, I mean, it's very difficult because as a Hindu, if we are 80% of us or 85% of us are Hindu, by default, we have a caste identity. Now, to say that I would not practice any kind of caste marriage or a kind of social interaction which is mediated through caste is impossible unless I shun my Hindu identity. So, it is an end to ask people to do that because the constitution bans and touchability or makes it an atrocity, it is difficult for people to do that unless they, unless we create a society from scratch where the generations who are indoctrinated or have picked it up are, we cannot do anything about them. But then younger generations to come can be exposed to these ideas, egalitarian ideas of equality, liberty and fraternity where caste is not the lens through which you see humanity or your fellow beings. But it's not going to be easy, it needs to be taken up as a social value by all and it has to be systematically talked about in schools, in colleges, wherever you have these issues of discrimination, exclusion, honour killing, etc. And not just the people who are suffering have to talk about it. In fact, the people who are perpetrators or people who come from the communities where, from which this idea of purity pollution comes need to be part of the debate and discourse. Thank you Dr. Amit for taking your time and talking to NewsClick. Thank you. Thank you for having me.