 where do I begin? And again, thanks to Learning Times and to the Institute of Museum and Library Services for making these webinars possible. We've got over 200 people almost hitting 230 coming into the room. Thanks for saying hello. And we've had about 300 folks on each of the courses we've done so far, which is just terrific. We have today our pest management session with Danya. And if you think that is making you squeamish, then we've got mold coming up tomorrow. And then next week we'll do staff and volunteer management for collections care again with Danya. I just want to let you know that you should be getting an email from us every day after we finish the presentation with the recording from that day's presentation. We also put up the PowerPoint on the website, and I'll say that a little bit more about that in a minute. If you're not getting our emails, there could be two reasons. One, you as an individual have not registered for these courses, and the registration is closed, so we don't want to get too confusing, but I think the best thing to do is just contact us at info at heritagepreservation.org and we can give you some further instructions on how we can find out who you are. If you haven't registered through the website, then we don't know who you are, but we are learning about you through the Hello Box and other things, so be in touch. Or the other reason is you could have registered just fine, and your spam filter is catching our emails. We do use info at heritagepreservation.org as the email address, attach those emails, but we use a sort of a mass mailer, so you might want to set info at as a safe sender in your computer email system. That's just a few tips if you're not getting a recording. Eventually, at the end of this month, we will put all the recordings up on the webpage, and again, it's the Connecting to Collections webpage, and then if you click on courses, and then Collections Care Basics. This is our treasure trove, so if you have any questions, if we rattle off any links, I go through the whole chat and I make sure to hyperlink it and put it on this page. This is where you can find our homework assignments, and as I said, at the end of January, we'll eventually post all the recordings from all of these sessions onto this page. I hope that your sound is doing well. Close captioning is working out some technical difficulties, so hang tight. If you are hearing an echo, you might be logged in twice, and if our audio is a little choppy, you might want to close some other programs running in the background on your computer. I will note that I'm talking to you on a landline phone. Donya uses a headset and comes in through the Internet. Her voice quality may not be as sharp as mine, but hopefully it's understandable, and I know closed captioning sometimes helps people with that as well, so hopefully they'll be on track in a sec. I just want to again remind you about the online community. I know a lot of you have joined because our members are climbing every day. In fact, we are 30 members away from hitting the 2,500 mark, which is great, and it's such a diverse group of collections professionals. We have conservators on there who look for at the discussion and who are willing to answer questions. So if you haven't yet had a chance to join or look around the site, I think it's really helpful. We've done a lot of webinars over the last year, actually a little more than a year, and they're filed under topics. So if anything comes up in our conversations here and you want more information or some really reputable links, hopefully these pages are sort of a one-stop shop to find some of that information. Okay, I think that's it. I'm going to, I'm glad closed captioning is up with us here. I want to turn it over to Donya today. Oh, actually, you know what? I'm sorry, Donya. If you don't mind, I'm going to just run a couple polls because we have been enjoying getting to know the group here. And I just want to get a sense of the size of your institution, and we're going to do that through your staffing. Hopefully, you can see that on the screen. I'm just thinking here, and this is just a rough number, how many full-time or part-time paid staff at your institution? If you've got volunteers, hang on. I've got a follow-up question that'll get to the volunteers. But just kind of get a sense of size institution. Now, if you work in a major university or something, we're really just talking about your unit, your department, your library, your museum. And we have a lot of mix. You know, the purpose of these webinars is to really reach those places that have small staff that have to wear a lot of hats and need some additional information on collections care. So that's great. It seems like we're really hitting some of those smaller institutions. I'm going to give people a chance to respond here. I don't want to take up too much time with my intro because we had so many great questions yesterday. I know this topic today on pest management. Unfortunately, we know more about pest management or have more pest management issues than we know what to do with. So I want to leave plenty of time for Danya. I'm going to drag this over. I don't think I can show you both at once, but we'll try. This just gets you to catch some of the volunteers. If you have any volunteer staff, give us just roughly. I know it changes. You can have more volunteers at certain times of the year than others or, you know, other factors. But just again, to give us a sense of how many people are relying on volunteers. This will be helpful, I think for Danya, too, because next week she'll be talking about working with staff and volunteers regarding collections care. And I think it'd be interesting to sort of know how many of you are relying on volunteer help at your institution. And we're almost at 300. Again, guys, we're at 276. Nice diversity. We've got Hawaii and Alaska on and everyone in between. Maryland, Iowa, I've seen Florida, Utah. So welcome again, everyone. Okay, I think I'm going to close these polls. But thanks again for participating in them. And I'm going to turn it over to our expert, Danya, who is I think you can agree a very good presenter in webinars. That's not an easy skill. She does a lot of teaching and preservation consulting. And we're so happy to have her. So, Danya, I'll pull up your PowerPoint. I'll turn it over to you. All right, thank you, Kristen. And great poll questions this morning. That's really going to help me out with next week's webinar on staff and volunteer management. But today, we're going to talk about pest management. And those of you out there who are actually managing staff and volunteers might think that we are talking about staff and volunteer management, because sometimes they can really be pests. Especially if you've managed student staff, those of you in academic libraries probably have had the same experiences that I've had every once in a while, you do really get a pass. But today, we're really going to be talking about not the two legged variety. Well, some of them can be two legged, but predominantly the four legged, the six legged, etc. And I'm going to fair warning. If you tend to be a little bit squeamish about bugs, there are going to be a lot of pictures of bugs. So you might want to take your glasses off, sit far away from the computer, and just listen. But there are going to be a lot of pictures. So what we're going to talk about today really is we're going to go over the primary types of pests that we can expect to find in our institutions. We're going to talk about integrated pest management, a bit about monitoring for pests, and then finally what we do when we find those little buggers. So that's really kind of what we're going to cover today. And hopefully none of you, you can see from the image in this slide, hopefully none of you has homemade ice cream sandwiches for sale in the middle of your library or your museum. Because then you probably do have a history of pest problems. So when you're thinking about pest management, ask yourselves some of these questions, do we have a history? Are there things to basically give you an idea of what you could be looking at in terms of problems? Do you have policies for food and drink? Are they just for staff? Are they for everybody? Do you let them slide for special events? And who's responsible for implementing them? Who's responsible for policing them and making sure that they are being followed? If you do allow food and drink, do you allow it in specific areas? You know, and that's another question to ask yourself. And then if you do, in just specific areas, do you monitor in those areas? How is your food waste disposed of? Is your garbage emptied every day? Or not? Do people take care if they're eating at their desks to, you know, make sure that there isn't a lot of crumbs? And then do you have a regular exterminator? You know, do they come and set out sticky traps? Do they come and put out mouse traps? Do they come and do regular spraying for termites? You know, do you have somebody like that? And if you don't know, find out. It's really important to have a good idea on what is actually being performed, especially if pesticides are involved. You really want to have a good handle on that. And we'll talk about that and why throughout the session today. So there are several types of common pests that we will have to deal with. Some of these will be northern pests. Some of these will be southern pests. Some of these will be tropical pests. And for those of you joining us from outside of the US, I'm sorry. I'm not up on my international pests. But even if these aren't exactly what you have, you probably have ones that are very similar. So we're going to talk about all these different types of critters today. So let's get started. Silverfish and or firebrats are probably one of the most common pests that we will find in our collection. They're small and long and kind of torpedo shaped, if you think about it. Depending on which ones they are, they can be silvery in color for strangely enough silverfish or a pale brown color for the firebrats. They are generally found in warm, damp, dark areas. Warm being a relative term here because they're usually found in basements. But, you know, it's oftentimes warmer than other places, but predominantly damp and dark. Both of these guys feed on books and paper and the bindings and textiles and wallpaper paste. Any sort of starches and material like that. If any of you have the starched linen drawings, if you remember that image from the very first class we did, that was silverfish damage. They really love those pastes. And their preferred housing is corrugated cardboard. And so silverfish will be virtually invisible to you because what they're doing is they are living in all of those open columns in your corrugated cardboard. And so when we get to the point of talking about integrated pest management, one of the big things we will be talking about is isolation when you get in new questions. So, you know, you'll want to be thinking about these little guys living in the boxes. So they can be very problematic. They reproduce very quickly. And they eat book lice or sausage are another pest that we find predominantly in libraries and archives. Less so in museums, but you probably do have them there too. They're not actually eating your collections. What they're eating is the microscopic mole that is starting to grow on the surfaces of your starchy or protein-based materials. So your glues, your book bindings, new plaster, you know, you can find them on just about anything because they want that mold. They're very, very tiny and translucent and they move very quickly. So you'll notice them in the summer, strangely enough, because the high relative humidity encourages that mold growth, which we'll find out tomorrow. But what you'll notice is when, especially when you open a book, you'll see these little guys scurry away from the insides of the bindings. What they're really telling you is that your relative humidity is starting to get to the point where mold really would be a problem. And so they're a bellwether for you in terms of your storage environment. You will only see them when the relative humidity is high. They need it for their food, they need it to breed, they need it to survive. Okay, this is why we generally don't see them in the winter unless you live somewhere a little bit more tropical. I like to think that the book lice all go south for the winter too. We send them down there. Cockroaches, and I apologize because every time I see these pictures, the cockroaches give me the willies, but that was from living in Texas and having the big monster cockroaches that could carry you away. Cockroaches will eat your book cloth, they will eat paper, they will eat leather. What they really, really want though are essentially the animal hide glues or the starch pastes that are holding these things together, holding these things down. And so you really want to think about where you're storing things and what you're doing in terms of monitoring because these guys like the silverfish and the firebrats love to live in the corrugated cardboard. And so you really want to use caution. Now what I'm kind of showing you are some more of the one on the bottom right is an American cockroach, also known lovingly as the palmetto bug. It's still a cockroach, don't let them fool you. But the one on top is a German cockroach or no, that's a brown cockroach. And then the German cockroaches are the little black ones that many of us see. And so, you know, we want to think about that. The problem with cockroaches is they reproduce very, very quickly. And so we really want to be aware, watch this, and nip these guys in the bud. In terms of relative humidity for the so-sins, probably starting at around 55 to 60 is when you'll start to see them. It'll be over 60, probably over 60 percent relative humidity, that you'll really start to see them coming in force. Usually around 70 is when they really become a problem, 70 percent relative humidity. And so that's, you know, giving you that idea. Mold, mildew, bugs, eggs definitely can survive in temperatures below 70 degrees Fahrenheit. That's just wishful thinking. There are temperature ranges that they won't survive. And we'll talk about that later on in the session. But the below 70, you have to go considerably below 70 before you start to have an impact. So we will get to talking about that. Sorry to burst your bubble. Cockroaches do reproduce rapidly. A single female in a single year can produce over 1000 offspring. And cockroaches, once they've hatched and grown to maturity, can reproduce within, I think, about 15 days of hitting maturity. And so you can have multiple, multiple generations within one year. It gets really scary. So cockroaches are definitely something you want to keep an eye on. Dermestid beetles, or the family Dermestidae are pretty much many different types of beetle, your carpet beetle, your cigarette beetle, all of those guys in that family that feed on dry animal or plant material, furs, textiles, feathers, leather, wool, but also paper. And it's not the adult beetle themselves. It's the larva that causes the significant damage because the adult beetle is interested in one thing and one thing only. And it's pretty much the same thing that teenage boys have on their minds. They are looking for a mate. And that is it. They're not interested in food. They're not interested in comfort. They're looking for a mate. The larva on the other hand, when they hatch are interested in one thing and one thing only. And that is food. And so they are voracious eaters. And so what you really want to watch for is this sort of damage starting to occur. This tunneling, what we always in the library world call bookworms, are generally the larva of Dermestid beetles. Any of those little kind of chewy bits on feathers and things like that often come from Dermestid beetles. So you want to be watching for that sort of damage, but you also want to watch for the adult. So, you know, these little round, brown, ubiquitous beetles are pretty much what we're looking for. And so when you start to see anything like this, it might be a good indication that you want to start monitoring, start investigating your collections, just to make sure you're not having a large problem starting to come at you that could really cause damage. Because we know whenever we get these insects eating our collections, there is no turning back. Okay, it's like the ink fading. We can't go backwards. Once the larva have digested our collections, we can't get it back. Another big problem predominantly in our museums are the case making or the webbing clothes moths. They're actually two different kinds, but they pretty much attack the same things. So hair, feathers, full fur will textiles in general, as well as your upholstered furniture, not only for the upholstery fabric itself, but a lot of times if you've got wool stuffing in your furniture, they're going to go for that too. Horse hair, they're going to go for that. And so you can see the case making clothes moth here on the right. You know, they look very similar. So they're just a moth looking thing. And again, it's not the moth that you really have to worry about. If you see the moth, then you know you have a problem because the moths are, again, out there for just one thing, and that's to create larva. And so the little larva will eat and eat and eat and eat. And with the, in the case of the case making clothes moth, what they're doing is they are eating your textiles and then making a case that actually will resemble the textiles they're eating. And so it's really difficult to see these guys. So a lot of times what you want to do is investigate boxes when you start to see the moths for the frass. And for those of you who like to do crossword puzzles, frass is a really great crossword puzzle word that doesn't show up nearly enough. And so look for the frass, which is essentially bug poop. And that's F-R-A-S-S. Because that's going to be easier to see than the cases. The webbing clothes moths aren't as camouflaged, but they do form really lacy cases. And so, and again, their frass looks pretty familiar. And so what you want to do if you see the moths is to start going back and going through your textiles to see what you can find in terms of frass. And if you're making sure that your textiles are stored in boxes wrapped in tissue, you really get a good foundation to see the contrast of the white tissue and the dark frass. So another good reason to be good about your storage habits. What I want to point out here is sometimes we need to be really careful in assuming that the damage that we see is insect damage. So we can see here we've got holes from insect damage. We had these are old holes, so I don't know if it was a case making or a webbing clothes moth, but these are what the holes would look like from those insects. However, what we see down here are different types of holes. And what I just want to point out is the difference between these two holes, although they look similar, is the holes below the lettering have a really brown staining around them. Okay. And this larger one here as much, you know, has the brown staining around it. And so what you see here is actually it's a baseball uniform. So in this specific instance, you're seeing the tobacco juice that somebody didn't quite cleanly spit, and it dribbled on the uniform, the uniform wasn't washed before it was given to the archives. And so that tobacco juice has become very acidic over time and actually eaten through the wool of the uniform. So, you know, you'll want to watch for that. In terms of extermination, we are going to get to all of that at the end of this webinar. So we will get to it. So as with strategies for preventing importation, we will definitely be talking about all of that. So wood boring beetles are something that we tend to worry about probably more in our museums, although when we have older library buildings, they could be an issue in those as well. And again, it's not so much the beetle as the larva that are really our big problems. What the beetle is going to do is it's going to bore into the wood or, you know, it could potentially get into your books and lay the eggs. And then what happens is that the larva hatches and will eat for two to three years, making channels further and further in to your furniture, to your house structure, into your books. So some of those bookworms could be wood boring beetle larvae. And so we really can run into just about any wood based product. Remember, a lot of our paper is now wood based with these types of insects. The powder post beetle, which is one of our biggest problematic pests doesn't matter what kind of wood it is. It really likes, but it prefers hardwoods or bamboos. And one of the things you want to do to ensure that you don't have a problem with the wood boring beetles is to always look around your furniture and look for wood dust or frass, because you'll start to see little piles underneath whatever piece of furniture or in the area of your building that you're having a problem. And this is where it's a really good idea to become friends with the people who do your house cleaning or your housekeeping, because they are really going to be the front lines in problems like this carpet beetle damage looks similar to your moth damage. But what you're going to see is more of a blanket area. So instead of just single little holes, it's almost more of, you know, it will cover a broader area rather than just a single hole. Usually, that's not always the case. And the frass looks a little bit different. But when it comes right down to it, it doesn't matter if it's a beetle larva or a moth larva, the treatment that we're going to do is pretty much the same. But you still want to try to get an identification because then it will help you to find the source of the problem rather than just treating the symptom. Okay, termites are in that same kind of wood boring beetle ish type class. But what termites really want is decaying trees, leaf litter, you know, any sort of already predigested materials. And so once they find those decaying trees, the shrubbery, they will find the decaying wood that's in your building structure. So a lot of us have dry rot or, you know, damp rot, depending on where we are. And so the termites will get in. And even if you don't have necessarily a wooden structure, don't think that you're immune. This pile of reports was sitting on a floor in a basement against an exterior wall that had a big crack. There was a dead tree outside. The termites were eating in the dead tree. Their population got too big. So the termites moved inside, predigested wood right there for them to eat. They ate through a stack that was about three feet high. And so they will enter your building, they will eat your collections, you really want to watch out for them. And I believe if I remember my map right, northern Minnesota, basically that whole northern border with Canada and Alaska are about the only areas that don't have problems with termites. We all can have problems with termites. How do you know if you have a termite versus one of the winged ants? Termite wings are the same size, both top and bottom, whereas the ants are going to be two different sizes. And then the termites tend to be a little bit thicker through the waist. So, you know, the ants are going to have that very narrow Victorian corseted waist. And then finally look at their antenna. Ants are going to be bent or elbowed. And termites are going to be straight. And so you really want to kind of keep an eye out for these things to help you identify because you don't want to have an exterminator come in to treat for termites when it's ants that you have a problem with because they may not actually hit the ant colony and you'll continue to have you know, problems with that. Yes, yay for Northern Minnesota. Okay, sorry. I'm a Minnesota girl. So I was excited to see some Minnesotans on. So, you know, really be thinking about identifying your pests because it does really help in terms of combating them. If you have any questions about how you can identify a pest museum pests net, which is basically an endeavor put together by the American Institute for Conservation to help with integrated pest management is a wonderful resource. They also have the pest list. It's a mailing list that you can join and post images to and get some pretty professional opinions on what bug you have. And I do actually have that link at the end of this webinar in a slide of helpful resources. So you will be getting that and we will be sure to put those up on the Connecting to Collections website as well. So termites. Yes. Okay. So before I move on to some of the vertebrate pests, I just let's there's also a question on beetles that specifically like photographs. Basically any of these beetles that or cockroaches cockroaches could be your suspect when it comes to photos. They really because the cockroaches and silverfish like the gelatin and the pastes, you really could be having a problem with the silverfish or the cockroaches rather than the beetles because they actually want to eat that emulsion layer on your photograph. So think about that. Piper, I will get to your question when we get to the second half of this. So it's over in my parking lot and so I won't forget it. So we also have to worry about the vertebrate pests because well, they are in our walls and in our ceilings and in our basements. And what we really want to think about is how they get in. This really is the time of year that most of us are probably having problems with them because they come in and it's nice and warm and it's cold outside. So good heavens, those of you in Hawaii being down in the 50s, that's just wrong. So your mice and rats are probably coming in too. Think about your building, look at your building, know that mice can get in generally through a hole the size of a dime. Rats and squirrels a hole the size of a quarter. And so think about for mice and rats any of the rodents. So squirrels included. And I guess you could, you know, maybe think about raccoons and possum. If they can get their head through something, so a crack or a hole, they can get their entire body through. So just be aware of that. What they generally tend to do is shred your paper based collections for nesting. They want a home. They want a nice toasty place for their babies. And so they will shred your paper for nesting, not they won't necessarily eat it. So again, they're very destructive. And they're generally not afraid of people, especially if you're on, say, a college campus. You will get the squirrels moving in over Christmas break, making a home in your reference collection and then scaring the living daylights out of a student when they come back and start the spring semester. Herding squirrels is no fun. I am speaking from experience. So just do what you can to keep them out. And for mice and rats, it's maybe not the answer PETA will want to hear, but snap traps are really the inexpensive and most effective route to take with the mice and the rats, and it's safer than poisons. And we'll talk about that again later on in this webinar. For the other vertebrate pests, the ones that fly bat excrement as well as pigeon is generally oily and can cause a lot of damage. So hopefully they don't get into your building and start flying around bats tend to be more of a problem because they are actually in our attics. And if we have collections in the attics, that can be problematic. The hantavirus is something we want to think about, but it doesn't actually come with the droppings. The hantavirus actually comes from the nesting materials. And so, you know, with yes, the droppings are not pleasant. You know, they're rat-sized or they're mouse-sized. So again, we can tell what kind of pest we have by their frass. So, but where the hantavirus really comes in is in their nesting. And so I think when we were hearing about all of the hantavirus cases out in from Yosemite, they were probably nesting in the mattresses in the cabins. And so when people slept on the mattresses, it wasn't so much the droppings. It was the nesting materials that they were inhaling the virus from. And so that's more where you have to worry about the hantavirus rather than the droppings. But yes, the droppings, you want to get rid of the droppings anyway. It's just not something you want to advertise. We do actually have some indirect pests that we want to be thinking about. These are pests that we get into our collections that aren't necessarily directly problematic to our books, our papers, our textiles, our furniture, our leather goods. But they are actually attractors for other things. So pill bugs, doodle bugs. I think every state in the southern U.S. has a different name for them. I've known them under the names of doodle bug and pill bug. So if anybody else has another name they'd like to share, I'd love to hear it. But they're the little armadillo-y looking bugs that when you touch them curl up into a ball. They like warm damp environments. And so they're often found in our basements. And with any of these indirect pests when they die their corpses actually attract the domested beetles. So the domested beetles will come in to eat your other dead bugs and then stay because they'll find really good places to lay their eggs. Drain flies are often found in our bathrooms. I think they're also often called sewer flies. They're kind of the fuzzy looking ones. Basically they're giving you the message that your drains need flushing. So you want to talk to your facilities people about that. Again they're not a direct pest but they will attract the other ones when they die. Moths that would be the big the big white moths not the little clothes moths. These are the big moths that go banging against your lights at night. Again oftentimes get into our building. They're not going to eat our collections but they will get eaten by the domested beetles. Fruit flies are probably in this category too. Amy asked about fruit flies. And I would really look right now to the problem of your indoor plants and how much they're being watered. Because it could be that they're being watered too much and that's what's attracting the fruit flies. And so the fruit flies again themselves not a big problem but they will get eaten by somebody else and that could be the invitation to bring somebody else into your collection. And then you want to think about those spiders. We all have spiders in the basement or in other places and we want to just ask ourselves if we have so many spiders how are we supporting this colony. What are they eating. And so here the spiders are catching the moths. They're catching you know all of these other insects that are coming around and they're eating them and leaving the carcasses behinds and then come the domested beetles. So be thinking about some of these indirect pests and what that could mean for attracting other pests into your collections. And finally because somebody had asked about this back in the first webinar that we did. Bed bugs. They aren't again direct pests for our collections because they don't eat our collections. They want to eat our blood which is why we all get a little bit wiggie about them. They you will start to notice them manifesting as little black dots on your books most commonly in or near the spine because they like it dark and quiet. And so that's their most logical place to go. The little black dots are essentially they're they're frass and so it's their excrement and that's what you're noticing. And for bed bugs depending on your collections they will be taken care of either by the freezing process that we're going to talk about as compared to the heating process. So for bed bugs one of the most common ways to treat them is through heat. And so what you do is you can essentially cook your books not for special collections materials. But if you've got general collections materials circulating materials. Oh, OK, I just saw the brown recluse comment gives me this shivers. So if you have these non special collections materials you can put them on the top rack of a household oven with a pan of water on the bottom rack and turn the oven onto its warm setting, which for most of us is around 170 degrees Fahrenheit and leave it in there for an hour, turn off the oven. And once the oven is cooled down, take the book out and that will actually kill all of the stages of the bed bug. But again, if it's your special collection materials, we want to go with the freezing route, which we're going to talk about later on in this session. So what I'm going to do now is have Kristen pull over our first poll question. And while you're answering the poll question, I'm going to go through and see what questions we have from this first buggy section of our webinar today. So we got lots of votes for really polly and potato bug. And some people called it tree life or wood life, how pale bug was being referred to. Yep. Oh yeah, Rolly Polies. I do like the Rolly Polies. It's such a nice name. It makes them sound so fun. I'm going to question about Carpenter ants. Yes. And I don't know if I necessarily believe that because I've had Carpenter you mind repeating the question. It's been a while. Yeah, the Carpenter ants, the comment from Sandy was that Carpenter ants, she was told Carpenter ants will not come into the museum and work on their furniture. And that could be true because what Carpenter ants really prefer is already rotting wood. So they're a lot like the termites. So if you see the Carpenter ants, you probably have somewhere in your building that has rotting wood. And that's what they prefer. But if you have any sort of damaged wood that's dried out or, you know, even any archaeological wood, anything like that, they could potentially be attracted. So you just want to catch them at that perimeter point rather than letting them come in. So again, when we talk about monitoring, that's where we're really going to be looking for a lot of those sorts of pests and making sure they don't get further in to get to our furniture. Crickets again are one of the indirect pests. When they die, they will attract the domestic beetles. Gekkos, their their damage will probably be more just from their excrement than anything else. They're not going to eat your collections. But again, if they're coming into your building to eat the other bugs, they'll also probably die in your building and then start to attract the other domestic beetles. So the temperature range to treat for the bed bugs was 170 degrees for an hour and then turn it off and let the materials cool in the oven and we'll talk about the cold and temperature at the later on in this webinar. So we are getting to that. Probably about millipedes or centipedes. Indirect pests. They'll die. Somebody else will eat them. And then it's usually the domestic and then they'll lay their eggs. Voles. I have definite opinions on the sticky traps and I will get to those when I talk about monitoring and traps. As with the snap traps are definitely better than the glue traps. There are reasons for that. So we will be getting to that. And what about geckos or lizards? I did geckos. Oh, indirect pests. Lizards they'll be eating other bugs but then they'll die and then they'll become the indirect pest. So I did notice somebody shared the link to the St. Louis pigeon poop problem. Thank you. It just goes to show you should really take care of your collections. So thank you Michael for sharing that. It's one of my favorite things to share with my students. So it is possible to kill insects in books and documents in the microwave but in the microwave you can do a lot of extraneous damage to the collections because remember when we were talking about environment with Tara and the higher you raise the temperature the faster the chemical deterioration mechanisms are working. And so you're really accelerating the natural deterioration of your collections when you do that. So what we're going to talk about later on in this session is the alternative to that which is freezing. Rita lady bugs are in that same category as all the other indirect pests they're not going to eat anything but they do attract the domestic beetles Asian beetles same thing. What I do with fire ants is really try to stay far away from them. With your fire ants what you're going to want to do is to find an exterminator because they're not going to be a problem with your collections but they do really cause a problem especially if part of your institution's mission is to have outdoor space for people. I still vividly remember fire ants from the second day I was living in Texas and it was not pleasant. So yes Mary the lady bugs do leave their frass behind which can be problematic but really for us the bigger problem is that they will attract the domestic beetles. So I think I'm going to move on now to integrated pest management and so for those of us that don't have a written policy or don't know if we have a written policy about dealing with these pests this is where we're going to think about writing one of these policies. So Kristen if I can have the poll out. Thank you. So what we want to think about with integrated pest management is really a holistic approach to dealing with our pest problems. So integrated pest management is really a chemical free strategy that's going to really focus on maintaining a storage environment that discourages our pests. So what we're trying to do is to move away from the pesticides and into very much a mitigation strategy. And so we're going to think about what we can do to make our environments inhospitable to these pests. Both inside our building and outside. And with integrated pest management we also really want to be thinking about always monitoring to see where we're at with our strategy how well it's working. And then if we do have an infestation to take non chemical actions to combat them because the the pesticides are not good for us and they contain chemicals that are really not good for our collections. And so we really want to think about what we can do as a proactive measure than always being reactive in what we're doing. So we want to start thinking from the outside in because for most of us our biggest problem is going to be coming to us from the outside. And so we want to take a really close look at our landscaping. Sometimes some days the words just don't come. And so we want to think about really looking at where our plantings are for our buildings. So if you're you know up here in New England or in many places across the country you know that to look very stately and official you must have Ivy growing all over your building. Well the Ivy is really poor in terms of helping to maintain a dry atmosphere within your building. The Ivy is going to really hold in moisture. But it's also going to give a great home for insect pests for birds. And the little sucker feet of the Ivy will work into your brickwork or your stonework and allow water in which then turns to ice in the winter and you start to get cracks forming because you have this Ivy growing all over. You can also get to the point where nobody maintains that and the Ivy grows in your windows and you can't actually shut your windows which then of course just lets everybody in straight away. So think about clearing away your landscaping that's right around the foundation of your building out about three feet. And what you really want to do is get in a really good gravel mulch. And so you have that barrier between your landscaping and your building. It doesn't necessarily mean you can't have any landscaping but just keep it three feet away from your building and use gravel mulch rather than say bark mulch because again the bark mulch is round up wood which as it starts to compost will be attractive to your carpenter ants and your termites and all of those other pests that we don't want to invite in. So gravel is a better choice in that respect. You also want to think about the lighting around your building and not have too much excess lighting or if you do want to have lighting outside your building don't have it directly mounted to the building because again that's going to attract the moths. Somebody's going to open the door walk out the moths will come in and then you start to get the path of inviting in the domestic beetles from the other bugs that you have coming in. We want to think about animal proofing our garbage containers and moving them away from the building. Those of us who have lived in more rural areas know that we need to sometimes even padlock our garbage cans to combat the bear. Sometimes you think you need to padlock them to combat the coons but squirrels are going to and rats are going to be two of our biggest perpetrators especially with the big dumpsters. And so look at whether you can secure your garbage cans and if you can't really think about where they are located. One of the institutions that I worked at had the dumpsters for the building in the loading dock. And so the loading dock was open all day and then closed at night. And so any of the squirrels and the rats that were in the dumpsters were locked in the loading dock at night. So when people came in first thing in the morning who had squirrels running around all over in the loading dock and when you open the back door they could easily have gotten in. So you really want to think about not only what sort of garbage containers you're using but where they're located. So move them away from the building or at least away from any entrance point. Because you don't want to encourage them to move in. You also want to really think about cleaning your drains and your gutters. Because again excess water is going to cause a lot of problems over time especially in the areas where we do get four seasons. Because excess water can get in if you've got a lot of excess water and you don't clean your gutters that water then instead of flowing out starts to flow in to your eaves and under your roofline and will start to rot the wood there which then again is going to attract your termites or your squirrels who can chew into a hole or those pesky European starlings that like to build their nests in there. So you know you really want to think about good exterior maintenance of your building and fill any of those cracks or gaps that you start to see. Something like this here is just that is a superhighway for insects as well as being large enough to let in mice. And if you think about the ivy that's kind of growing right along here on the building when that ivy expands and covers up this hole that is going to just be prime mouse habitat. So really be aware of what's going on in your building and take a look at things and just really observe. Do you start to see changes in things? Do you start to see little piles of sawdust that could be those wood boring beetles? Do you start to see little piles of what looks like dust in odd places that could be frass? Take a look at things like that. And then just finally if you can keep your doors closed during the summer months, don't prop them open. Propping them open just really means that nobody has to work hard at all to get into your building. When we're looking at the inside of our building, we're always going to be aware. One of the things that I really like to try to emphasize with my students that I teach at Simmons is to start to become more aware of their surroundings because it's amazing what little it takes for us to notice in terms of changes in things. And so just always be monitoring and looking. But you can also monitor with various and sundry different devices. And we're going to look at some of those. We want to fill gaps or holes in our doors and windows. So whether stripping our doors, caulking our windows to make sure that you don't have any gaps there, not only helps to keep the pests out, but also helps to maintain your internal environment. You're less leaky that way. Speaking of leaks, we want to repair any leaks quickly, whether it's a roof leak, whether it's a window leak, whether it's a leak in the bathroom, from a water fountain. We want to repair them quickly. And in the summertime, in the summer months, we always want to be checking our air conditioners condensate pans or the condensate lines, depending on the type of system that you have. They tend to start to have algae growing in them and get clogged up very easily. So work with your maintenance or facilities people to always be checking on that especially during the summer months, because that can lead to slow leaks that will be difficult to find and very difficult to clean up. And always be monitoring your temperature and your relative humidity so you know what your environment is like, because, again, most of our insect pests really like the higher relative humidities. And then really try to minimize the number of indoor plants that you have. And if you have indoor plants, really avoid overwatering them because it's really an overwatering that you can get a lot of problems. And again, monitor those indoor plants if you start to see any sort of aphids or bugs in and around the plants, then they need to go because they will start to cause problems over time. You know, how are you storing your collections? Let's think back to what we were talking about yesterday. Do you have them stored on the floor? Are they up against basement walls? You know, are you just inviting those mice to come or those rats to come? Because where they're going to travel is going to be at the intersection between the floor and the wall. So they're going to be traveling behind all of this stuff and you're never going to see that you have a problem until it's become really big. You want to always be removing your garbage daily, especially from kitchens or anywhere that there are food, that there is food. You want to be sure that you're always cleaning and train the people who are doing your cleaning or housekeeping to be looking for insect carcasses, frass, little piles of sawdust, things that really could be good indicators of problems. Because again, they're really your front line and they're going to be the people who notice these things first. And when you have a good relationship, they're going to come to you so that you can deal with the problem sooner rather than later. So be thinking about things like that. Again, try to encourage people not to eat at their desks, especially if they tend to have collection materials that they're processing at their desks. And to try to keep the staff kitchen area clean. I have worked in institutions where departments, there have been certain departments that like to celebrate the birthdays and holidays and have any excuse for a party. And the one department that just always comes back to my mind wasn't very good about cleaning up after their crumbs. And that was the one area in the library that always had problems with mice. And so it does make a difference. And then if you do find an insect, save it, take a picture of it, post it to museumpests.net, find out what it is. Do you have to worry? And just really are you storing things in such a way that it's going to make it difficult to do any sort of monitoring or to notice anything? Okay, the larger mess that you have, the more difficult it becomes. So if you see this right here, that was that pile of reports that when the top report came off had all of the termites underneath it. And again in here, how are you going to tell if you have a problem with anything with all this clutter? I know most of us don't have enough storage space, but we need to learn to be able to make do with what we have and to be as neat as we possibly can because that's going to be our best way to A, be able to maintain intellectual control and be able to monitor for these pests. So Bethany, for your question on you're getting a new cleaning company, what's the best training? We'll actually talk about that when we talk next Wednesday about the staff and volunteer training. So we will definitely cover that. So when we go to do monitoring, there are different ways that we want to do it. There's basically two different types of traps that we can put out, insect traps and rodent traps. For our insects, we can do what are called oftentimes either sticky traps or blunder traps. You're basically putting them out to basically just see if you have a problem. You can get just plain old sticky traps that have nothing on them, either for your floor or to hang. So if you want to catch moths, if you want to catch crawlies bugs, you know, that's you know, something that you can do and it's going to help you just casually monitor who's walking in. You're generally going to want to put your floor-based sticky traps up against the baseboards so that as the insects are traveling along the baseboard, they're going through the trap. So the baseboard would be here, the floor would be here, they come right through that open spot and sticky trap. With your hanging traps, again, you're going to hang them where your textiles are hanging. You can get pheromones to go in here. Insects Limited, which is a really great company in terms of monitoring materials really geared towards libraries and archives and museums. And they're going to have all of the pheromones for the little weird pests that you have. You can also get sticky traps for silverfish, but I have in conversations with Tom Parker, who's an entomologist who really works in integrated pest management for museums and libraries and archives, has recommended that you don't put them down the way that the box shows you to put them down. Basically, put four pennies on the four sticky corners and then flip them upside down because silverfish are going to try to eat from the bottom up. And so if it's just paper on the bottom, they'll eat through the paper and never get caught on the sticky part. So you want to put the sticky part down so they actually get caught. What you want to be aware of is if you're using pheromones, be really careful because what you don't want to do is actually attract the insects from the outside to come in. So really think about using pheromones only when you know you have a problem and you want to try to get a better sense of how many you have because you already know you have them. So you want to be thinking about that. For your rodent pests, you really want to go with the snap trap as compared to the poisons or the sticky traps. The sticky traps on many levels are really cruel. I have seen body parts left in sticky traps because they're like the old animal traps that would be put out in the woods and so the mouse gets caught in it and will chew its leg off to get away. Not exactly something that you want to think about. So you'd rather just have it taken care of. And so your good old fashioned snap traps are definitely the best thing for that and I've seen the conversation going. I really like chunky gif. The mice really like the fat and they like the sugar. I have never caught a mouse with cheese and I have no idea how that got started but peanut butter is just the best way to go. Now with the snap traps, if you don't have a facilities person coming around, you can actually get snap traps that are in boxes so you don't have to see them. And so you can just either, well, you either start to smell that it's in there or you can lift up the trap and know that it's heavier than when you put it down so there's something in there and then it just goes away and goes in the trash. So there are ways to get around it but also think about where you're putting your mouse traps. Now in this picture, the mouse trap really isn't in the right place. It should be perpendicular to the wall because mice and rats are always going to travel with one part of their body up against a wall because they've got really, really great senses of smell, lousy eyesight. And so they need that oil from their body to guide them to their homes. And so you're gonna put the traps perpendicular. The one thing you need to know is if you're working with mouse traps, you want to set them right away. If you're dealing with rats, rats are smarter and more curious than mice. And so you actually wanna put the rat trap out unsprung for three days so that the rats get used to seeing it, they get used to going over it. And then on the fourth day, set the trap with the peanut butter and that will catch the rats. So you have to give it a little bit of a time delay for them. You don't wanna use the poisons because again your mouse or your rat is going to then climb into the wall and die, which yes is the whole point but then their carcass is going to attract the domestic beetles which we don't wanna do. The mouse or rat can get stuck to the sticky trap and run around with it stuck to them. So again, something that's not really pleasant. And then even less pleasant is when you have sticky traps out for insect pests and you catch bats in them, which I have done. And that's really not pleasant either. So there's not a lot that you can do. So it's, you know, the rolled oats with dry plaster seems like a good idea, but again, where are they going when they die? Because it's that carcass that we really don't want kicking around. The five gallon buckets with water. Generally I've always had that on hand for when I've trapped them and they aren't quite dead in the trap and then you drown them and then throw it away. So yeah, I mean, if you can only use the humane live traps, you're just going to be catching and releasing and catching and releasing the same mice over and over again. So just be aware of that and actually really take the steps to try to figure out how they're getting in in the first place. Cause if you can block all of those, you might notice that you're not catching nearly as many and that might be, you know, even the better thing to do is to just not let the mice in the first place. So good heavens, Janine in New York, how big are you growing your mice if you need the trap traps? Good heavens. So there's a lot of options for trapping, but really sometimes you just want to keep to the simplest things because for our purposes in libraries, archives and museums, we don't want the carcasses around because they will attract the other pests. So, oh dear. Yes, we all have, sorry, I'm just reading some of these mouse trap experiences. So what I'm going to do now is give you all a pop quiz and I will take a couple of quick looks and see what we have in questions while you're answering the quiz. So, oh good heavens. I might just have to get the chat section, the whole chat section from today because some of these mouse stories are sad and disgusting and informative all at the same time. Oh, and then there's possums. Possums aren't something that I've had to deal with as much but we're getting more and more of them. So, we want to think about that. Okay, good. Most of you have gotten to the point where, yes, we know the answer is all of the above and so that reminds me. One of the other strategies that we can use at the very beginning is to discourage the pests is to isolate and inspect any incoming collections. And so what you want to do, even if you just have a closet with a couple of sticky traps, put them in there to check your collections. If you're getting donations coming in from other people and you don't know where they're coming from, the easiest thing you can do as your very first step is to take all of the collections out of the boxes they've brought them to you in, put them into new boxes and immediately discard the donation boxes because for most of us, that is where a lot of our insect pests are going to be introduced. It's not necessarily in the collections but it's in the boxes. So isolate and monitor your incoming collections even if it's just a closet or even one of those metal coat closet things will work really well with a sticky trap inside and that's going to just give you an idea of whether or not you are bringing anything in. But as general rule, when you get donations in, change out the boxes as soon as possible because that's where your biggest problem is going to come. So if you find you start to have problems with pests, what can you do? Well, you're going to call your facilities person to see how they may be coming in and what they can do about it. Your facilities person is also usually the person with contact with any sort of exterminator that you have on contract and contact your conservator because they're going to need to know what they need to do. If you don't have a conservator on staff, get some either ziploc bags or large polyethylene sheeting and isolate that item. You want to clean the area that you've seen the pests and look for any other damaged items. So if you've got moths flying around and you find one box of textiles with closed moth larvae in it, look in all the other boxes just to be on the safe side. If you find one book that's had some cockroach damage, look at the other books surrounding it. Try to figure out when and where and how this happened. It's always the process of evaluation. There's really no single, there's really no one single solution for any of this. It's all going to depend. So it's really all in the evaluation and talking to the professionals and this is where the pest list really comes in handy. You want to document any event that you have in terms of what pests you had, where those pests were located, what collections were damaged, how they were damaged and what treatment was given so that you can have more information if you have a similar problem in a similar area so that you're not looking at certain collection materials and going, oh, we've got damage, we must have a pest problem and it's old pest damage. And then always monitor. Okay, you really want to think about isolating any sort of infested objects immediately, either by putting them in a Ziploc bag or as you can see wrapping them up in polyethylene sheeting with a lot of tape. You really don't want any gaps. And then you want to separate out those items that can be frozen from those that cannot because freezing is one of our best options. So if you have small enough materials that can go into a freezer and this is really going to depend on what sort of freezer access you have because if it's just a chest freezer, you're limited in size. If you've got access to a walk-in blast freezer then that's a whole other story. But what you want to think about even if you just have a home chest freezer that you can have access to is to freeze the materials, ideally down to minus 20 Fahrenheit for 48 hours to one week, depending on the size of your item, the density of the item. What we really want to do is bring the core of that item to as close to minus 20 Fahrenheit that we can get. And so we want to keep it there for 48 hours. So if it's small, you can get it there 48 hours is enough. It might take a couple of days to get that core down and you want to be sure that you are getting that core to the freezing, especially if you're trying to deal with something like the wood boring beetles. You're going to let it thaw for at least 24 hours. Probably more is not a bad idea. When it's gotten re-acclimated to room temperature, you're going to re-freeze it again for however long you froze it the first time. And so what you're doing in this freeze cycle is you are killing the adults and the larva in that initial freezing stage. You are not killing the eggs at that stage because the eggs are amazingly resilient and will go into dormancy. And you want to make sure you get the eggs as well. So then what you do is you thought it's going to make the eggs think it's spring, they're going to hatch, and then you freeze them again and that's when you get the eggs. And so you want to think about the freeze, thaw, freeze cycle. Sometimes it takes a couple of go rounds because you didn't quite get it cold enough or you didn't leave it long enough, but this is something that you can with some guidance do on your own. And it's a great way to deal with pests in textiles and furs and books. So it's really our preferred way for, and paper documents. So it's really our preferred way for that because it's not going to be as damaging. Furniture gets a little more tricky. So for those of you who have access to it, for furniture, three-dimensional materials, composite materials and things like that, a lot of the preferred way would be to use controlled atmospheres. So carbon dioxide, a nitrogen or argon system, or just using oxygen scavengers. And so what you're doing is removing the oxygen and killing the pests that way. So depending on where you are in the country, a lot of the larger museums, a lot of the larger historic societies have CO2 chambers. So for those of you in New England, Historic New England actually has a new CO2 chamber that they rent out and let people put things in. So it's something to think about. And ask around in your area to find out if anybody has one of these that you could have access to if you have problems. I would start with your state and work from there because they're the most, your state museum probably is going to know more about what you have in your specific state. But the controlled atmospheres work like the freezing and kill the pests without any sort of pesticides or fumigation techniques. Sometimes the only way you can do pesteradication is with pesticides or fumigation, but this is really only your last resort because the pesticides are damaging to your collections, they are damaging to you, they're damaging to the environment. And so we really want to be thinking about what we can do to avoid doing this. And that's why we think about the integrated pest management. We're going to use freezing or controlled atmospheres if we do have pests, but we're going to do everything that we can to prevent them from coming in in the first place. So you really want to be thinking about those sorts of things. And if you do need to do fumigation for heaven's sakes, only professionals, some of you may have leftover thymol chambers or something, please don't use them. It's really not the best idea for your health. So again, some helpful resources, museumpests.net, that's also where you can sign up for the pest list. If you have pest problems or think you might have pest problems in the future or you're just really interested in bugs, please sign up for it. It's a great list and they have some wonderful, wonderful knowledgeable people on there. Insects limited, both as a store where you can buy some of these sticky traps and such, but also for their information. They've got a lot of great resources. And then the Smithsonian has a really good article on museum pests for you to encounter. So, even though it didn't look like I had nearly so many slides today, as usual, get me onto bugs and I can't stop talking. So I'm going to take questions now and if Kristen can be, let's see. Danya, yeah, I pulled some aside. What about, you got to fumigating buildings, I think. I think you talked about how long to isolate a collection, just an incoming one, as you said, taking it out of the original box and putting it in something else. How long, just repeat that again? So, if you are going to isolate, you really want to keep it in some sort of isolation for about a week because that's going to get everybody up and moving around again. You know, and so in some sort of closed area that you can put sticky traps or even, you know, if you don't have a lot of time, just take everything out of the box and as you're taking it out of the box, have a big white sheet, you know, just a cotton sheet and kind of shake things out gently to see if any frass falls out and that's going to be a really good indicator. So, you know, there's a lot of little things like that that you can do and it's really all down to looking, being really aware and carefully looking. So, things to think about. Cedar chips to use to cut down on logs or a cedar chest, you know, it worked for years but the reason that it works is the oil in the cedar. So, if you are going to use a cedar chest or cedar chips, you really need to wrap your textiles in many layers of tissue to make sure that the oil can't penetrate and always be checking that tissue for any signs of the oil leaching out. It's just, you want to try to, you know, avoid causing one problem by trying to prevent another. And what about moth balls? Moth balls are naphthalene and biphenyl and they're two of the volatile organic compounds that actually can catalyze the degradation and plus it takes forever to get the smell out. So, they're not really a great option. Another historic method of keeping the moths away is actually lavender. So, I tend to tell people try the lavender before you try the moth balls because it smells better but again, make sure that you're not having the lavender in direct contact with the collections materials because it does get dusty when it starts to break down. And what about dichotomous earth? Diodemation earth? Yeah, you said it. Diodemation earth. Great for the little creepy crawlies. So, like slugs and things like that. I think you can use it for cockroaches but it's never going to catch all of them and so you still wanna be monitoring and watching and just seeing where they are and what you're doing to prevent them coming in. So, like keeping the food away because for the most part the cockroaches are in our buildings for the food and so if we can really cut down on that it's gonna keep them from coming in. So, Kathy in Elmhurst has her institution leases their space and has an operating food-based business beside them. A, one would hope the food-based business is in and of themselves being very careful about pest management because otherwise the health and human services would come down on them or whatever government agency. But you will definitely want to be monitoring especially with sticky traps by your doors and then also just be really aware of where the dumpster is for your building because that will also play a big role in how you can combat the pests from them. Kathy in Hatfield has a question about a standard home chest freezer and does it go as low as 20? They generally don't. You can get them down to about zero minus five depending on what they are, which will be okay but you have to leave things in for longer. You can also get, replacement rheostats for them that will actually drop the temperature lower. And then basically how you know is to just get one of those little min-max thermometers that goes in the range that you want. Like the home weather stations you can get generally go fairly low and you can just stick one of those in there and read what you get. Start it up. And see what happens. Oh, we had more indirect pests coming in. Tarantulas, crickets, the clover mites, box elder bugs. Yeah, most of those are, you know, most of everything else are gonna be our indirect pests. So I don't see any more questions. Thank you, Dan. I don't see any more questions. I think you had answered Piper's question in Tallahassee about she was doing the two cycles of 48 hours each of 20. You answered that. Which is exactly, as long as it gets down below zero, that's going to take care of most everything. Okay. I don't want to keep anybody past 3.30 if they need to go but they're just a couple little loose ends that will finish up here. Otherwise, we hope to see everyone tomorrow for mold. Real quick question. So with Betty, putting it in a box and then putting it in the cedar chest is fine, the box is going to be your barrier. Okay. And someone else had asked too about the terms of the freezers. It's, you know, how can you get access to even a larger freezer than just something bigger than a home chest freezer? And I've heard, you know, if you can make a relationship with any kind of, you know, commercial entity that... And I can't remember where I read this but there was an institution doing pest eradication with a reefer truck. So those refrigerated semi-trailer trucks that you can rent, you can rent one of those and it will work as well. Okay. And all these temperatures you're talking about is... You know, you just need to... All of the temperatures that I've been giving are in Fahrenheit. Thank you. I think we got to everything. I mean, there's lots of different bugs and I think the museum pest site is very helpful for that. The boric acid is probably the same question, sort of same answer. The boric acid actually works really well for a lot of the smaller bugs. It's a very fine powder and it attaches to the bugs and they take it back to their nest. The only thing is you just... It's, you know, like anything else, you just don't want it coming in contact with your collections. It's an acid. So it would do damage there too. And then other natural things like eucalyptus and bay leaves. Again, you know, it's all in the quantity. You know, if you want bay leaves everywhere, it might work, but then what other problems are you going to get from having bay leaves scattered all over everywhere? Yeah. The Osage oranges people use to keep away spiders. But then you have all of these little Osage oranges kicking around and then they start to deteriorate and then what do you get? So there's, you know, it's all a balancing act. Everything we do is a balancing act. And the same thing with traps. I mean, if you've got a trap out with peanut butter in it, I mean, you leave it out for a couple days, right? Right, but it's going to be when you know you have a problem. You're not just going to randomly put out traps and leave them. You're only going to put the traps out when you know you have a problem. I just think a couple more. Amy, just ask a question about large objects. You know, Amy, for your large objects, a lot of times what you can do is wrap it in polyethylene sheeting with a lot of tape so there's no access. And then I would contact Scott Carly at the Alaska, oh, is he at the Alaska State Museum? He's going to know just where in Alaska you could go. Now, I know Noam isn't anywhere near the Alaska State Museum, but he might know of somebody. And strangely enough, depending on how your winter's going, if you can somehow manage to just make the normal Alaskan winter be your freezer, that might also work. But again, you have to be able to move it and protect it. But sometimes we can get really creative as long as we take everything into consideration. Neem oil is something that I'm just starting to experiment with. I have no opinions on it yet. So I think that's everything. I think you got everything. I will just double check the chat and make sure we did, but I really do think you got it all. And I want to thank the closed captioners today and all our attendees. We hope to see you tomorrow. And I hope you have a great afternoon. And again, check the website for more information. And thank you, Kristen. You're welcome.