 Good evening, everybody. May I have your attention, please? Good evening. Thank you for coming. And let's begin with the moment of silence. Let's begin with the moment of silence. Good evening. And welcome to the open house on Multiversity, organized by the working committee. And myself, Satish, over here from the residence assembly service, along with Tatiana. And the other members, Verena, Giovanni, and Dan, who's organizing this meeting for you all today. The RAS has been asked to conduct this meeting specifically to room management, and making sure all inputs are harvested in this open house meeting is compiled and shared with the working committee and the wider community. We're not here to facilitate anything relating to the contents of the Multiversity itself from the RAS. So all your questions will be answered by the stakeholders by themselves, which in this case is the working committee. We believe it is our purpose in the RAS to support the community of Orwell to organize itself towards its highest potential and to make an informed decision. I'm handing it over to Tatiana right now. Thank you, Satish. So the purpose of this meeting is to inform how the working committee arrived at this point where the draft document was shared with the community, collect feedback, suggestions, questions, insights from the audience, from the residents in this open forum. And we would like to thank Orwell Radio for live streaming and recording this meeting. We would like to thank the Unity Pavilion team for hosting all of us here. The residents assembly service will take notes, your feedback, suggestions, and questions. And let's get through the agenda of the meeting so you can see all the items here. So first, the presentation on how we arrived here by Hemant. The second point, sharing of views of the working committee and SIR board by Manas. A short questions and answers session will be conducted by Ellen. And then we will open floor for residents to air the views. And yes, now I'd like to turn over to Hemant who is going to lead in the first point. Thank you. Thank you, Tatiana. Thank you, Satish. Thank you very much, RAS, for doing the facilitation today. Welcome to everyone in the room and on the live stream. The today's purpose, why we are here is to be part of a journey and to see from here onwards where do we go. Nearly all the chairs are slowly getting filled in. So we're very happy that there is interest in the community and concerns and questions which are very valuable at this stage to receive. I will start with how we started. Before that, I think we'll try to compress as much as possible the three presentations so that the room gets more time than one hour. The journey of Shurya Aurobindo International Multiversity as it is named today actually started somewhere in 1951. There was a convention held in Pondicherry under the mother supervision. And the convention came on 24 April 1951 to a conclusion that there should be a Shurya Aurobindo International University in Pondicherry. And in fact, it started. 1952, Shurya Aurobindo International University started in the Ashram. In 1959, the name had to be changed. By that time, Pondicherry became part of India. And regulations for universities were such that it was no longer possible to hold that university under the university structure which is governed by a body in India called University Grant Commission. Now, then there was a second step which happened in that much later was to when the Pondicherry University started. And Pondicherry University was supposed to be Shurya Aurobindo University. Now, that also did not happen for certain reasons. Here we come this year, 2021. People in Orwell, a working committee, put a core group together for celebration of 150th anniversary of Shurya Aurobindo. The first meeting itself, the idea popped up. And the idea was very simple. Rename Shurya Aurobindo International University. The Pondicherry University should be renamed. And that was a very simple idea. Then Shurya Aurobindo Ashram in Delhi. Tara Di has many of us know her. She's been an old-time friend. One of the first students of Shurya Aurobindo International University under the mother. She was asked by the government, government of India, central government, Ministry of Culture, to put together all the centers, all the institutions which are connected with Shurya Aurobindo and come with one collective idea that how India should celebrate 150th anniversary of Shurya Aurobindo. It coincides with 75th anniversary of India's independence. So the field of ideation started becoming bigger. When this idea of university came there, we realized that it is not only a few people from here who are interested, but there were other people like in Delhi Ashram. They had an idea of a university somewhere from Gnostic Center. They had an idea of starting a university. But when the first discussions were happening, there were challenges of doing a university. But somehow all these ideas were collected. University was one of the ideas and there were many other ideas which were cultural programs or reviving the buildings. So there's a long collection of programs which were assembled together. And at that moment, Dr. Jayanthira, we have a secretary join. And she made a presentation from Auroville in the collective presentation, which was to be given to the Ministry of Cultural Secretary. So she made a presentation from Auroville. The first slide was to start a Shurya Aurobindo University in vicinity of Pondicherry. Second slide was having an international conference in UNESCO with head of states. So these two were big ideas and we were pretty sure that nothing is going to happen on these because the rest of the things were concerned about actual works of Shurya Aurobindo by different centers and everybody was expecting this. And when the collective presentation went to Ministry of Culture, they came back and to everybody's shock, they just picked these first two ideas and dropped everything else. So we were the bad people to bring those ideas around. So really every center, every organization in India which had worked about how to celebrate Shurya Aurobindo's 150th, all everything was dropped out. They asked us to start developing this concept and come back with another presentation of this idea. At that point within the large collective or coalition of different centers, many of them did not feel connected with this idea. They dropped out and it was decided that one smaller group gets formed and that starts working on this concept and that smaller group consisted of Auroville, Delhi Ashram, Gnostic Center, Sakaar, Shurya Bindu Ashram, Pondicherry and a gentleman from Calcutta who also later dropped out Ranjan Mehta in the name, many of us would know. So essentially this subgroup worked for about three months. The first thing which came down to the subgroup was that the university is not a concept which we can do. It's the same problem of 1959 that the regulatory structures are such that if we have to do something which is wide and has to capture all the different details of integral education, university concept doesn't bring that kind of a format and it is too heavily regulated. So that went out. Then it became an institution and the institution would be a network of different learning institutions of integral learning or integral education. It evolved a little further to a concept paper. Again, this time also written by Dr. Jayanthi Ravi and this was done with Kirit by Dr. Kirit Joshi whom many of us know as a guide and a teacher and somebody who's been closely connected with Auroville from the beginning. And they had developed this concept paper of a multi-versity which was giving certain level of flexibilities. Flexibility is in form of that there'll be institutions which are in alliance with their partnered or alliance together and they are connected. It becomes like a network and each institution or the learning center or the community can offer experiences, immersions, courses, programs and a person who wants to go through a learning journey can take these multiple of these at different points. It can be two or three in Auroville, one or two in Ashram, in North, in the Himalayas or it can be outside internationally in any other center, integral learning center or it can be in any other community or university which is not necessarily connected to integral learning. So this felt by that small group an idea worth exploring and putting it together and a concept note was put together, sent to two ministries, Ministry of Culture and Ministry of Education, both liked the idea they said it can go to the next stage and at that point our secretary she suggested that we can take it and that was probably another level to take is to start it as an act of parliament and as an institute of national importance that would be the right offering for Shri Aurobindo in the 150th. So with that somebody called Dr. Dhruv Chhaya, Professor Dhruv Chhaya, he was asked to come from Gujarat. He's an expert in putting university laws together, university acts together, so he put the first draft which was way off, way way off then the idea which came and then another couple of months people got together and brought it to a stage and it was coming to a stage that it didn't feel like that we can end the process and at one point we had to really take a decision that it should stop and go back to the institutions which are becoming Alliance partners and see what is their feeling. At that time the current draft which was on 8th November was stopped saying that this is let's say as on today goes to the institutions which are named in that and see what their feedback comes. So in the draft there is a concept called founding affiliates. So the six organizations who were drafting this were first listed as founding affiliates. Out of these three, Sherbindo Ashram said they would not like to be a founding affiliate but if there is an invitation to be part of the governing structure, they would be happy to send a nominee. Delhi Ashram dropped, they said, we will not like to be at this stage part of any governing process but we would come back when the affiliation starts. Later if the university, multiversity comes into being. The third being Sherbindo Society. They also had first complete out that they didn't want to be part of it and later recently they have said that if invited they would send a nominee for being part of the governing structure. The reasons for them to drop were different from each of them. Many of them we don't know but largely it was that when acts of parliaments are being made, there is a lot of due diligence and processes which need to be followed or they are exposed to so they didn't want to get into that processing so they dropped out. So here I will also drop out. I will rather hand over to the next stage. What we did was once on 8th November we received this draft. We circulated to the community. I think it was 12th November, the mail went and we circulated to Syar Board. Syar Board had a discussion internally and then we had a joint discussion between Syar Board and Working Committee and we arrived on certain views, perspectives and we would like to share that Manas I would like to invite to share those perspectives that how do we feel as Working Committee and Syar and how do we see this to go further. Thank you Hemant. Thank you Hemant. So as you might imagine, when the draft was received by the Syar Board, there was a bit of surprise at the content of the draft and there were a lot of questions that we had internally. So we asked for a meeting with the Working Committee and so we had a meeting last week with them and so here are the three main agreements that we arrived at in that joint meeting and a couple of possible ways forward. The first agreement is that in this year of the 150th birthday anniversary of Syar Vindo and the 75th year of independence of India, great idea to have a multiversity. Okay, no problem with that. That was the first agreement, good to have a multiversity. I'm gonna quickly move to point two before somebody jumps on me. So the second point was that Auroville Foundation cannot be an affiliate of this multiversity. There are two reasons for that. One is that if you look at the act, the affiliation is meant to be at the level of centers that offer programs of learning, like the Gnostic Center, like SAKAR and things like that. Auroville Foundation is not a center that offers programs of learning. So that's one reason. The second is the implications of being part of this act for Auroville Foundation is unclear. As we all know, acts have a way of being interpreted and misinterpreted. And we don't really know what's gonna happen. So that's the second agreement, that Auroville Foundation cannot be an affiliate of this multiversity. The third agreement is that if there are units, activities, places in Auroville that want to offer programs through the multiversity, we should be able to make that possible. So if, you know, Poonam Center for Integrality, I always take that example because it's such a esoteric name. If they want to offer a program through this, they should be able to. So that's where we reached in terms of agreements. In terms of way forward, one of the things that we agreed on also is that whatever happens, the experimental nature of Auroville and the education that happens in Auroville, that cannot be affected. Number one, and that freedom has to be there. And second, in terms of how it could possibly be drafted or put together in a document, one of the ideas is to write it in a way that it doesn't actually name organizations. So you write it in a way which says there's this multiversity, this is the governance structure, these are the kinds of people who have to be nominated and all of that, and you have an affiliation process, but you don't tie organizations into some sort of a legal entanglement, if that is possible. So maybe that's one way to do it. That's where we are. That's where we are in terms of what the sideboard feels is the way to go forward. The other question that has come up, I think is the question of the hub. Should the hub be in Auroville? We are very clear that the hub should not be in Auroville. A multiversity like this, which has lots of centers all over India, possibly the world, needs to have a hub which is more accessible maybe. New Delhi is a perfect place for a hub for this multiversity. So we would not like to be the hub for this multiversity. There is some unclarity about a couple of other things which we will look at. There is a budget that was put together apparently by somebody and it was in a slide in a presentation that was made for the governing board. Fortunately, it was not approved, the budget. And that was the budget for lots of things for the 150th year celebrations. One of the line items in it was setting up the Multiversity Hub. And the project holder was Sire in that. Sire did not know anything about this, which was interesting. So as usual, there are interesting things that happen in our community, but I hope that we'll sort of go forward with a little more clarity and a little more sense of direction. Yeah, I'll just clarify the hub part a little more. I think what came out was also the structure which the multiversity creates should give autonomy to the management of multiversity to figure out which are the best places to do what. One needs is a startup hub which is administrative in nature and it needs a certain type of people and that's not our core strength. Our core strength is innovation, experimentation and doing things on the ground, applied research. So it was felt that it is better that it is in the capital region somewhere that it starts. After that, if multiversity comes into being and if there is a collaboration and if there is a research or if there is an experimentation and if some kind of a focal point needs to be put in or will we deal with that at that time, not at this time and fix in the act that even the management of multiversity, their hands are tied. So they may want to do it differently. So the entire process of it is to make it as the design of the act to be as universal as possible so that it's not tying down people who are managing the university into some kind of a group where they can't get out. Sigrid, the questions will come after. So this is the clarification of the hub. They were largely, so far the feedbacks which we have received, they are in the section of the top heavy structure. It's very old fashioned. That's one part of it. Hub was a big question. And a very formal levels of examinations, degrees, courses, PhDs, those definitions. Whereas even in the current form of education systems, worldwide it is moving towards recognitions and credits rather than hardcore examination. So the document as such is work in progress. This is not a final document. There will be several more iterations before it gets into the next stage and who knows whether it gets into the next stage or not, we don't know yet. With this, we move to the next session. Are we doing okay with the time? Yeah, we've been set up. Yeah, thank you. So that's the two items from our agenda today. And yeah, we would like to invite Alan right now to lead the Q&A session for the next 30 minutes roughly. I'm not gonna lead it. This is in the nature of an experiment because we know there's a lot of questions coming from, we know there's a lot of people who want to ask questions. What we thought we were trying to do for 15 minutes maximum, not 30 minutes, is quickly map the terrain with quickfire questions and answers, and then in the open session afterwards let people ask much greater depth regarding these questions and regarding questions that have come up on Orinette or whatever. So these are just very quickfire question and answer session just for 15 minutes, okay? Trying to cover some of the major questions that people have had so far. There's a question there already. Yeah, can we do the questions first? We have about one hour 15 minutes for questions. For all of you. So I think once we are through with this, which will take about not more than 15 minutes, then we can go further. Yeah, you just hold the mic. Yeah, so I think the working committee published through a massed email, a kind of concept note along with the draft bill itself. So based on that, a lot of Oravillians have sent their feedbacks to the working committee. So the working committee has kind of identified some of the top concerns because there's quite a lot of commonalities in those feedbacks that have come. So this session is basically the starting point of addressing those feedbacks in a Q&A format. Then the floor will open to all of you where you can see if there are other questions that come up for you or you want more clarification on the questions that were asked in this session itself. Is that okay? Does it make it clear? Okay, good. Let's start with this and then see. Okay, first question. We're gonna come to the session. Park it. Park it. You have one hour, 15 minutes. Keep it, keep it. Okay. Park that and fire in 15 minutes. Okay, first question very quickly. If Oravill is involved in some way with the multiversity in some form, what practically would it mean in terms of our functioning? As the ideas which we have presented now, Oravill as a whole is not going to be part of the multiversity. It is going to be the sections of Oravill which if they want can affiliate and it is a choice. It is not anybody forcing them. Good, okay. If it becomes an act and if Oravill in some way is connected with that, how will the act relate to the foundation act? How will the whole thing relate to the foundation? The two acts are different acts with different intents. The Oravill Foundation Act is towards creating Oravill and for the core principle of human unity and this is very clearly defined why that act is created. Multiversity act will be created for the purpose of creating a multiversity. Both are independent of each other. If the optimal thing which was laid out by Manas, if we have that relationship, what would be the advantages for Oravill? Well, there are certain programs and experiences and particularly experiences which can be recognized and this is more not in line of giving a degree or giving a certificate on that but it is a recognized experience of learning. If somebody goes through a process of accumulating these experiences in Oravill and if this is somewhere in their university or in their own works, it gets some sort of a recognition. That's the value which it will bring to our programs. Is there an inherent contradiction between what mother wanted for education in Oravill, the free bureaucracy, integral progress and the award of certificates degrees? Yeah, I touched the awards and certificates a little earlier. The traditional awards and certificates and degrees are slowly getting out in the conventional world also. It's more the content and the quality of people and their learning capacity is coming more and more out. So if our intent and the consciousness and the effort are towards creating integral education, that is much more important. So in Udovi school, we do give certificate, they go through examination, but the Udovi school children there is a marked difference between them and somebody who has gone through a conventional high school education. So what we are intending also makes a lot of sense. It's not only by not giving an exam or by giving an exam, one becomes better or worse. What is the present stages of the process? Some people are concerned that it's a fate to calmly already. Others say that no, we actually have it within our hands now to decide as a residence assembly whether we want to go with this or not. What are the options? Now if we go by the options which Manas had listed down, we have very little to do in it. Other than giving suggestions of how, if there are bugs over there, we feel because it's not an Auroville project. It's going to be a project of India. And if we see that there are improvements, we can give suggestions on improving it, but we are not going to be stakeholders if our names are out. Final question. The 150th group among themselves have been discussing this for quite a long time and a number of months. Why is it taking so long to bring it to the residence assembly for the wider discussion? Yeah, in fact, it did not get discussed in 150th group also for a very long time. It came as an idea. It came into, went wider into a wider circle of organizations outside. And out of that, there was a subgroup which got created and started working on the document or the concept. And it took three months to come to this stage. And everybody felt that this was not a finality. So it took time to come to this stage. And this is, I would say, a first stage. It's a first iteration. It's draft 01. From here, there has to be more drafts coming and there will be many more iterations before it gets into parliament and many more perspectives have to come. But we can say no, or maybe, or yes. What are the options that are there? What Manas has described, it is more or less, if Auroville Foundation is not named and it is a universal act, our role in that is to suggest how the government of India should do. We are not a party to it. Can you hold the question, then we can come back to you. The floor is open. Before, yeah, there's one and a half hours here onwards. It's all yours. Okay, there was one more question. Why do we need an act? So the reason for having an act and then Manas can correct if I'm saying wrong. The universities in India or educational institutions are made under an act called UGC Act, which is University Grant Commission Act. If there is an institution which is created privately in any other form, they do not have a possibility to award recognition, accreditation, or any certifications. So in case if there is no certifications to be provided, then you don't need an act. But if an institution has to provide certification, then there is a need of an act. Am I right? Yeah, just to clarify that, why somebody might have written or drafted an act like this is there are two essential ways to set up a university in India, either through an act or under the UGC Act, the University Grants Commission Act. There are two kinds of acts. It can be a central act in parliament which sets up a central university. It can be an act like Azim Premji University, for example, set through a state legislature act. That's a state university. Otherwise you have to be under the framework of University Grants Commission where there are different kinds of universities that also can be set up, deemed university, whatever else there are all kinds of sections and all kinds of universities possible, including private universities. The thing about an act is that if you want to do something which is outside the structure formulations of the UGC Act, if you want to do something new, innovative, different, then you need a separate act. If you are going to fall into the same kind of a framework of UGC programs and the way universities are structured, typically, then you don't have to usually have an act. You would go under the UGC Act and you would set up the university. Thank you, Hemant and Manas for answering all those questions and we'll now open the floor to the room to ask or air your questions or suggestions or concerns and everything. I would like to take names. I understand there are many of you who would like to express. So please be a little bit more patient with me on that. We're 4.45 right now if I'm not wrong. We will have this meeting running until 6 p.m. And we also have papers and pens out there because Tatiana is holding it on her hands. Some of you may not get a chance to speak here within this allotted time, so please feel free to write on the paper and hand it over to us, which we will pass it on. So yeah, I'm gonna take the names now so please keep showing your hands up. Yeah, just a simple reminder. Sorry, I forgot to say earlier, Wickham is also here to help us with this session. Thank you, Wickham, for that. Yeah, just two simple reminders that keep the discussion as topic specific as possible. And we have an hour and 15 minutes and it's not a one-off meeting. I'm sure more meetings need to be arranged because this is quite a substantial topic with a major impact on Orville itself. So in case if some of you miss out, don't worry, we will try to organize more meetings if needed. Yeah, the floor is open. Probably from Delhi, I don't know where, is creating certainly some central organization. They want to best the mother or what's happening? Yeah, I just have to read a letter from Asta who couldn't come and she sent this to the working committee. She wanted us to read it out. So friends, allow me to share some perceptions. One, Orville has received increasingly since early years individuals, groups of students and teachers and eminent personalities, artists in all fields from India and internationally for a lived experience that Orville offers. Orville aspires ensure being those 150th birth anniversary for a further widening of this circle. It shares after the mother founded it 50 years ago this field of diverse activities with its soul, the Matrimadir, at the center. Number two, on going through the draft proposal of the multiversity, the structure presented with designations is not in resonance with the field of experience such as Orville holds which is an inner growth of consciousness and its progressive expression in life with its manifold activities as a collective of humanity. The future calls for an ascending movement of the world's collective. It is an organic growth of the world spirit, not to be held within a structural form of functional evaluation. Three, the occasion of the 150th calls for creating new forms. Let us not cast the future in conventional ones. A few steps ahead in our march as fellow travelers are called for. Thank you from Asta. Satish, just say the name clearly so that everybody feels like they are noted and are in line to speak. Who's the next name? In my opinion, what I miss up to now is the needs of the people who are living in Orville, Indian, Orvilleans who are going to different colleges, need certificate, they want to work somewhere, we need certificate. They want to join Orville school, like Outsie school, they need certificate. And we are saying no, no, we don't want. So the question is, is Orville for everyone or is it only for few people who are here like elite people? That's for me the big question. No, my question are exclusively of illegal nature because of course I'm very happy by what Sayer and Manos are presenting but the fact remains that we are the draft and I've seen three of these drafts. This one is presented at final but I've seen the previous one. I've been forwarded privately discussion so it's very difficult to believe that this draft is not serious. So the first thing that I wish to reply to something that Amon had said first which is not correct because the difference with all these acts and university and the Institute of National Importance is precisely that the Institute of National Importance has his own syllabus and is free from interference from the government. So there is immediate contradiction with what Amon said. So the point and I've discussed with other people as there is the syllabus is its own and there is no interference from the government. Eventually the question of diplomacy and certificates if things in our will turn to bad can even be dropped. So the point is another. The point is the legal issues. So it's very short I've written down. I've been reading this draft at least 10 times. I've discussed also I had from a barista who sent the thing to the working committee but it seems working committee didn't read or didn't receive. So anyhow these are my question from the draft. Among the powers and functions of the multiversity the draft bill list 13 T to establish and maintain such infrastructure as may be necessary for carrying out the activities of the hub of multiversity. And here is the question. In the draft the hub of the multiversity is located in our will land on the mass plan or outside it. Question by infrastructure. Do you mean also roads, lodgements, et cetera? If it is so will the share of the multiversity decide about infrastructure, its sub needs bypassing the resident assemblies mandated by the foundation act to propose to prepare the master plan and update it every five years submitting it to the governing board for approval. So this is question one. Question two. As power and functions the draft also list. 13 U to acquire hold lease or sell any of the multiversity properties and enter into a deal in this respect. This is further defining in supplementary provisions. 23 one. The multiversity this is the key. The multiversity shall establish a fund to be culture of international multiversity fund consisting of five. Money received from the sale of any movable or removable property of the hub which is in our will of the multiversity. Question one. Is the hub located on our will land making money by selling our movable or removable properties? Question two. Are the Cherubindo multiversity members planning to transfer their land and assets of the Auroville foundation and transform our will into a Cherubindo college campus? That's why it's imperative to clarify the question of the hub because everything is in the hub. So this is what you're presented as final, clear. So now you have presented the working committee in the aeronet as presented as the final draft. So you have to make sure first this is not final. Second we have to answer these questions. In fact to remove them from the draft. I mean it's not final. I mean we received the draft proposal on 8th of November with written final but as a working committee we did not consider it final. Just to be clear that why three days later we posted for public feedback. We had two meetings with the secretary where we went through the proposed draft line by line. The point which has been mentioned of the property relation and the hub and selling has been identified by us as one very critical point that should disappear from the act. And on top that is one of the reason why we recommend that the hub should not be in Auroville to avoid any encroachment or any contradiction in term of responsibility on this matter. So that is a stand of the working committee and so yeah we are very clear. And that's why we propose that Auroville foundation is not one of the founding affiliate but act should have an universal character have every unit in Auroville who are interested to offer course and affiliation can join on it. That is just for clarity that we agree on this point it has to be removed and changed. One more information. Yes, I mean there will be a new draft I guess which this will be taken into consideration. In the case of one explanation we have been given interpretation but I would prefer not happening here that there is an administrative place for the hub or the university that might be in a plot of land in the outside the master plan. I'm saying what is the opinion I mean you want to have information or not if you want to have information I tell what is the thinking of people who are elaborating behind this act. So we have asked this type of clarification and that eventually it will be a lease of a plot of land, a free lease. So there is no question of the hub having any ownership on the land or on the building that are creating on the plot of Auroville land. But as I said before, these are a fact of the encroachment these fact of having these presence of an institution which is created with an act over Auroville foundation land we are taking a position where we are requesting that this part of the hub will be removed and Auroville should not be part of it. Totally agree with the comment that has been made until now. Mona, sorry while they're figuring out the mic the floor is, no she has a mic. The floor is open for many different types of participation and feedback. There's feedback on the presentations that you just saw and also feedback on the intent and content of the draft bill itself. Yes. I would like to first tell all of you how difficult it is for most of us to be decided by all kind of groups that Auroville would be a good hub or Auroville would be a good place for lease. I have the feeling they are used. Our name is being used in one place where I called a failed project. In the next one, they all want our name. I am extremely happy that this meeting between the working committee and SIR brought out this tent. That's why I asked has the secretary of the foundation agreed with this. If she doesn't, does an RAD still exist? Does an RAD on this process, if we would get one would an outcome still mean something in the condition that we are in now? Or do we have to admit that we have no say at all anymore? I really would hope to get an answer on this. Thank you. Saurav Heman. Auroville foundation, we have had a discussion with the secretary, as Saurav said, line by line. If my answer is finished and it's not answer, you can ask me back. Universality, to keep it universal that our names of organizations are not mentioned is a point which is acceptable. Now the question of hub, of having an administrative hub in Auroville also, when we had a discussion it wasn't acceptable from the secretary's point of view. At least that's what I understood that administrative Auroville is not meant for an administrative hub. So the second part of it, this document is work in progress. It is at design stage, there's no finality yet on any of things which have been written in that. Once we reached at a stage where our names are out and our things, what we have discussed are not mentioned over there and still we feel that there is a bug which is troubling us. We can go back and discuss. If the discussions don't come to a point then the question of RAD and all those processes come in place. So far the discussions have been cordial and acceptable. As you all know, we haven't purchased the land yet and about 100 million US dollars are required. Maybe now 130 because speculation on land is very big, very fast. And as we all know, we have the Auroville Campus Initiative which was meant to see Auroville as a campus and I thought the multiversity would be the continuation of this campus idea and part of the parcel would be that as in the Auroville Foundation Act, we are a central government foundation and not one word is spoken about the land and the land holding and all land matters are with Tamil Nadu and Tamil Nadu doesn't need to care about any foundation from central government. That's the situation with the land, that's our big problem. So I thought that we would finally get protection and the status for the land holding through being a multiversity with the status of an Institute of National Importance. Now there are certainly many legal questions into this of which I'm not no expert but if there is a chance to finally get land protection for Auroville's future through this, then let's not miss this opportunity. If we are not taking this opportunity, what is our strategy to secure the land in the next very few years because land is being bought right, left and center but not from us because we have a one-year procedure and people want to sell land fast. We don't take black money but others do. We have no say in the legislation around because we are just a tele-foundation. We are nobody in Tamil Nadu. So can this community, there are three people fundraising for land in Auroville. We need 100 plus US dollar. Can this community take responsibility for its future and find a strategy to secure the land through this way or other ways? Thank you, Segrit. I have still Tapas next, Fred and Jorgen. You need an answer? Is there anybody who would like to answer on that, maybe? It's very simple. I thought he'll agree that we need to secure the land. We need to protect the land. The Multiversity Proposed Act is not the tool for protecting the land. Let's be very clear. I mean, that we cannot expect this to happen in this way because in any case, it will not impact private land and the land that we need to buy, we need to buy for Auroville, not for any outside institution. So it might have a lot of benefits but definitely not for land protection. Thank you. Tapas, yeah. Yeah. I'm glad to know this draft is only work in progress and I hope it is. I think Mother has laid down enough of guidelines for Auroville as a research lab, which for me is already a new concept of a research center, more than calling it a university or multi-city or any other legal framework of academicians in the world and India as a whole. I think it's very important to trust the mother in terms of protecting the land or requiring new land and also trust our children who are born here and who grow up, certificates are not the aim. Research is yes, acquiring experience is yes. And we have enough of examples of students from the ashram who have gone out without certificates and who have been successful. Why create, and I hope we don't, if at all we are planning to create this hub and give out certificates, I do not agree and I would like Auroville to be protected from such legalities, while at the same time perhaps mother was initially and Shobindo did think of a university. And for me in the inner world, Auroville stands as a university and we are all doing in one form or the other those researchers. So if at all, Shobindo Multiversity comes about, the only partnership we can, I can imagine is eventually as an affiliate, be with Pondicherry University as an example, that's only an example and a suggestion. Thank you. Thank you Fred, yeah next. I feel there is a, also in me, having gone through various mass mails and so on, there's such a suspicion and mistrust somewhere. And I think celebrating Shobindo's 150th doesn't deserve this kind of negativity. I feel assured reading from all sides that the integrity of the aims of education as laid down by mother and Shobindo will not be compromised. I don't think we have to discuss that at this stage. I think what I see in the children and grandchildren and so on speaks for itself. I think we have been, not a failure, we have been a great success on that score. But there comes, I think in every evolution comes a moment if we are the research and development department for novel ideas for the world, that is the way I went out and collected money. That's the way it was presented to UNESCO, to India. We are laboratory, we are field station. There comes a moment when that transfer of novel ideas has to be brought out, applied to other station. Now, this transfer is difficult and there we need instruments for. And as far as I understood how it was presented, it does not compromise the status of all of you. Unfortunately, so, what we always tried in all the different and mother-started Shirobindo's action. When she said to Uda and Kirit, the moment has come for India to know about Shirobindo. When Satchu was created and the government recognized its center, commission here gave a lot of input and help, financial help for Satchu. Once we got the help, we never talked about it anymore. Sero, now this one. We are struggling to find an instrument which can take what has been experimented and also fertilize what is being experimented here further to further application outside. And I think we should be grateful for it. We should take it as an opportunity. The only cause for distrust and that I have to mention is the working committee are there speaking in one voice and do they have the ear and the function of the secretary to carry it to where it has to be heard. This, I don't know. I can only hear. We are presenting and we had a cordial meeting. We had very many cordial meetings, but nothing ever happened. So my feeling is we have to empower representatives, the representatives of the community to have the power to stand up and say this far and no further. But that there is a possibility to get a status for Aureville as a field testing station, as a laboratory and facilitate a transfer of novel ideas to other application should be welcomed. But there's almost nothing to add anymore, Fred, thank you very much. I'm happy that the discussion takes the direction. It's not the final draft, it's an open discussion and maybe the hub shouldn't be here in Aureville and I'm happy that it is going in direction daily, eventually. I went through it through the legal part. I'm not a legal person. I was just counting the members. So if you're taking the executive council, the general council and so on, there are 40 people from outside and only three or four, five people from Aureville involved which would be designated by the foundation. Just by the number, you can understand that would be an institution outside from Aureville. There is one, but the second part and actually the last one, we are talking about education. Is rightly, no? But what I'm missing is actually the secretary at least invites our educationists who are on the ground since 40 years and 50 years who have a basic understanding how education works, what is the interest, what was the basic idea of a spiritual collective integral work. And I would wish really that you would incorporate this kind of educationists in the next stage because it's not only a political issue, it's a question also to get to know how from the people involved. Otherwise, I would really get a confirmation for Mohammed under the working committee in whichever direction it goes, take the residence assembly serious. Call them, ask them, get the mandate. That's all. Thank you. A question to the working committee. I stumbled over the term of Institute of National Importance. Do we have to become as Aureville an Institute of National Importance? And what does this mean for Aureville? I mean, that sort of term has implications. Could you elaborate a little bit on this and make it more understandable? Hello. Yeah. Hello. The Institute of National Importance status is given by Ministry of Education and it's mainly for educational institutions. If I'm not wrong, about 90 institutes in India which have a status of Institute of National Importance. Aureville is not yet an Institute of National Importance but nearly 15 odd years, we have been representing the government to become Institute of National Importance for human unity because we are not, most of the organizations are universities or educational institutions. So we were not strictly qualifying into that status. What it gives is certain tax exemptions and exemptions from receiving money under different sections of law. That is one reason which we were applying because then what different tax exemptions which we have at this point in time, there's Indian tax donors have limitations to give how much money they can give to Aureville. But as soon as you have an INI status, any corporate or Indian donor can give as much amount they want and take it out of the taxes. Now at this moment that, so that was one reason to get that. Multiversity, getting Institute of National Importance doesn't concern Aureville because it's a completely different institution which is getting created. And if it is an educational institution from the beginning, from the start, government when wants to create that can declare Institute of National Importance while it is creating. Does that answer your question today? For Aureville it is, for Aureville it is one is tax reason and other is that there is a certain reputation which comes with it. Okay, yeah, no. Institute of National Importance is a status. It's a status given to institutions which are important to the nation. We have applied for 15 years for that status. We keep on reminding the government that it is important for India to have Aureville. And along with a certain status, it brings tax benefits. Multiversity is nothing to do with it. Multiversity is a different institution which has Aureville and multiversities are not two institutions connected. It's a separate institution which is getting created. No, human unity is Aureville. Just to be clear about the confusion because there are two process in the pipeline. One is for Aureville which is pending since many years. We have been told that the matter is on the table, the finance minister and we will get at the earliest or soon, we don't know when, but that is separate process specifically for Aureville. Then one institution like multiversities created. There are about 100 in India which are creating outside the framework of the university grant commission. Normally they are created with an act of the parliament to create institution on national importance if they cater to the need of a particular region or they are specialized in a particular segment. So for example, we have all the various IT Institute of Management or the National Institute of Design, the National Institute for Law. In this case, SIM would be specially dedicated to Sri Robindo, that's why become an Institute of National Importers because of this specialization. That is the reason. But the application for Aureville is a separate process. There are two processes in the pipeline. Yeah, so I just had a question about that. Just to clarify. So is the secretary aware of all of the effort of making Aureville itself an Institute of National Importance and what is, because I think there's a confusion. You have two things in, even from the government side, I think it will create confusion, you see? And so I don't, why would all this effort on making some other thing an Institute of National Importance rather than Aureville? She's aware that there is the other process. She's involved in the other process and if you want my opinion, I think that is important that is recognized for Aureville. Yes. That is, I absolutely should have the priority in my personal opinion. Okay, the mic can go to Santo, yeah. Santo, Luji, I have you on the list please. Be a moment. A much smaller issue has to do with the presentation. I'm a bit confused about one passage that Hemant said because if this multiversity is, the Aureville Foundation is one of the affiliating member of the multiversity. Then if I understand, the Aureville Foundation is still composed of three bodies. The governing board, the International Advisory Committee and the Residence Assembly. But Hemant I think in his passage says that we are not involved at all in this project. So I was a bit confused because the Residence Assembly is part, and the second question connected to it is when we say that the Aureville Foundation is an affiliating member or founder of this multiverse, which body of the Aureville Foundation is the one that is doing the job. The governing board, the International Advisory Council or the Residence Assembly. There is no other body that can do that. Okay, I start with the second one, which is easier. When Manas made the presentation, he explained that Aureville Foundation cannot be either a founding affiliate or an affiliate because Aureville Foundation is, it has all these bodies and under those bodies many units and trusts and organizations. If there is any affiliation in future needs to be taken, then it has to be one of the bodies of the foundation. It could be CSR, it could be Aureville Earth Institute, it could be Putnam Program, what, so, and it could be all of them separately. So Aureville Foundation, if it gets affiliated, there are many things which are not related to education over here and they cannot get affiliated to an educational institution. So technically, Aureville Foundation as an umbrella cannot become an affiliate. Only something, an institution or an organization which is working under the foundation, whether it is a vocational training school or whether it is any other institution which wants to become affiliated, they apply to become affiliate. That's the second part of the, the first part if it is in terms of creation, in terms of if, at this point as it stands, it's the idea is held collectively by several centers and institutions in the country. And it's kind of when the aggregate of all the ideas went to the government, Ministry of Culture, they picked up this to send it back to these collective organizations who originally presented hundreds of ideas. Now, when it has to go back, it is not Aureville Foundation which will present, although Aureville Foundation because of its structures and because of the act of parliament and all that stands legally in a better handshake in terms of Aureville secretary being an IS officer and the secretaries in Delhi also IS officer, though they have a better kind of a communication channel. But it is a collective idea of all the participant institutions which is making to government of India that for sure when those 50th anniversary, this would be an offering and government of India is open to make that offering. So it's not only the foundation which is promoting this. In terms of, we said we don't want to participate. There is no consequence other than saying that you are, well, there is something which collectively something has come, Aureville drops out. And whatever in terms of perceptions happens in India or in Delhi or wherever, those perceptions are people's perceptions. I can't tell what that will be perceived as. Anybody who's not? Hello? Yeah, we can have one-to-one after with the barrister whenever he's... But regarding to this... Everybody wants to hear? Yes. So one basic question, you cannot have a body corporate while at the same time you declare that everybody's autonomous. So... I can't answer that question because it's too legal for me. No, but this will answer the question. Everybody should be free to do what they want, but then you remove the body corporate. I don't know whether we can because I don't know this is a legal language which I can't answer the question, so some lawyer has to answer it. So even says that the way it is formulated, the draft has no chance to be approved because it's a disaster. That's a good feedback. So, Hemant, we don't have to answer everything. The points are well taken and noted. Disaster is a good feedback. One moment. Look, I have seven names already. I see two more new names. So it's nine actually as of now and we're 30 minutes after 5 p.m. right now. So there's 30 more minutes left. I think I'm just reminding on that because I don't want this meeting get stretched out too much and we all start walking out. So I'm taking two more names right now. So right next is Luigi. Okay, my thing is a little size. After the past sake for me, very important thing. Exams here, no. I'm sorry, man. We came here for something else. And what I want to add is, yeah, in the ashram it's very clear Esther went to Sorbonne University without one exam in her life. But I want to say something that possible we don't know in order of you. I start the community kids and at the time. Keep the mic close. At the time, there was only Croquet coming to give some classes two hours a day. And when the kids went to USA, they came to the school and they say to us, these kids, they know much less than us. Oroville, although I was a teacher and I was very worried for our education, our kids outside, they can make it. Don't be worried for the exams. Thanks. Thank you. Let's go to Luigi. You there? I mean, I have you on the list. So I'll come according to the order. Thank you. Yeah. Three points quickly. The first one is if we want to suffocate the creativity, the spontaneity of our education in Oroville, which I agree with Frederick, there is a lot of many points, not only in education, all fields to be proud of in spite of all our contradiction is to put it a superstructure. Here, we have a proposal of a superstructure which tends always inevitably to suffocate the true spontaneity for which we have come here. Point two, bring it back under different way, different dresses. They need to give degrees, diploma or different statement. It's against Motherville. She stood for an education which is not subject to utilitarian world. And we know the pressure, including Oroville, where the parents want a certain career for the children. But here in Oroville, we have this opportunity. And here, if somebody is interested, I have the list of the universities and the institute in India and abroad who accept more than 20, who accept children from the Ashton and we know some university who accept Oroville. Point three, and then I conclude. Point three is that an Institute of National Importance should be clearly and has been always in the pipeline for Oroville. Not easy to get it, but it will help for sure. And I would suggest that this open forum or assembly, whatever we call it, come to a clear, firm stand to say no thank you to this proposal, gentle, but no thank you. And at the same time, say yes, to bring a proposal from Oroville which foster research, applied research in all fields, not only education, because as much as important it is education, all the field of research of Oroville are producing incredible result and make Oroville to grow. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Luigi. Srimoy, Srimoy is on the land. So the general feeling I get here is fear and which is not new to the residence assembly of Oroville and denial and no. This is what we always say no to everything. When we come as a collective, we are afraid of something new, something big happening. So that is one part. Then I would like to know, there are quite a few parents here, whose child has gone through an education system or whose child is attending an education system in Oroville which is not geared towards certificate and examination. Is there anybody? One, two, three. Fred, your children, I think were going to Johnny's school, so it's a little different. So there are quite a few. Okay, so what I want to say is that I recall my kids going to that school where I was the solitary parent struggling with the school couldn't do anything because that's what the parents wanted. They all wanted that their children get a certificate. Some said, what if this project fails? My child will be, should be able to go out and earn some money. And it went on and on. And I was the solitary parent asking that my child gets an education as per the vision of Sri Aurobindo and mother. So there is one school, last school, which is trying to follow that. But as far as I know, the other schools are not. They're all issuing certificate. They're all preparing the children for the rat race. So what are we going to do about that? Forget multiversity. What are we going to do about that? Because if we start talking about multiversity being, oh, like this or like that, we are being hypocritical as a community. We are allowing schools in Auroville to have schools which produce or prepare children for exams. We are calling examiners from outside into future school who sit and make the children give their exams. They're O levels, A levels and whatnot. We have other schools who do that. So what are we going to do about that? I'm very happy that so many people are against examination. What are we going to do about that? That is my question. Tapas, you want to answer? Yeah. Natasha, I think this is a kind of a concern and a personal observation expressed in a rhetorical form. I don't think we can open the floor for discussion on this one. Yeah. So would you like to clarify that it's a misrepresentation on record? Tapas, yeah. Yes. Okay, express that. I'm sorry, Srimayam, surprised what you said. I recall, I'm only going to share my experience. In the ashram school in 1970, till 1970, they were exams and there were a lot of complaints to the mother saying, students are copying from the book. What should we do? Mother said, she changed the system and she wrote, send out a circular to all the parents. If you want children to get a certificate and a job, there are plenty of schools and institutions in India. Please, if you don't trust what I'm trying to do something new, take them out. And there was a clear choice even given to my dad. And my dad said, you stay here and I trust the mother. So mother has created Auroville in that vision. And all our kids, even in Auroville and ashram who have gone out, who have fared well. I just had a letter of attestation. This is what I wanted to share, actually. So after that, mother created some kind of, the school created some kind of evaluation program to justify the so-called lack of certificates or degrees or exams. And when I came out of the school, all I got from the school thing, I'm so and so, I have spent 14 years, I have studied the following subjects. And there was a circular which was given by the central government who recognizes a school like ashram as an experimental school. And the level is recognized to the level of BA. This is all that it said. And I had that circular given by the administration school from the ashram. And that I shared in Paris when I landed up in the university. And they recognized it. So I never had a degree. I didn't have to go through any exams in the school. And something of what I would only think which Auroville can eventually give to the parents and the children who go out from here is what Anu and Mahemant was saying. It's the experience that counts from Auroville whether even for the child who grows up. He has so much value which no other school in the world gives you. And every child has fed whether he had a certificate or not. Future school is on this school that gives so-called O levels, A levels exam because there's pressure from the parents. And I wish that did not happen, but it is happening. So it's, do we trust the mother? Do we trust the future of Auroville? And Hemant rightly said all universities and schools are moving away from exam systems. So what are we doing here? Do we want to recreate the old world? Yeah, I'm going to Hemant right now. He would like to talk something about it. We can open the floor for this discussion. No, you can make a statement if you like. As far as I know, but maybe my information is outdated. The school's policy is still no certificate, but they facilitate when either the children, most probably by the pressure of their parents would like to have a certificate that they're called in one. So the policy hasn't changed. That's the numbers of children might now be because of circumstances because there's another management in the school. That's okay, but it doesn't deny the policy and it doesn't make those parents who still believe in the ideal hypocritical. I just want her to take back this word. Just taking from where Tapas left. I think more than examinations or certifications or any kind of tests, there is something which also is called evaluation and recognition. Now, something which the ashram school, what you got is a recognition. I don't know whether it is Uthmania University or JNU, but that they did give a recognition. That time Ministry of Education probably, we'll have to get into the details of that, but there is some kind of a certification which is recognizing this experience as worthy. And when we are talking of recognizing certain experience of as being worthy of... Thank you very much. Yeah, so we have, this is vocabulary we are getting into. So there are certain things which we are talking of examination and tests and accreditation and percentages, that's one side of it. The second side of it is recognizing a certain experience over a 13-year or 14-year or a four-year or three-year or a one-year life of learning. And these recognitions at this moment are not given by any university in the country. These are given by some foreign universities. Many people come from foreign countries and come to Auroville and their experience is recognized in Germany, but not in India. Indian student can come to Auroville and have all these experience and have gone through a learning journey, but it is not recognized. And no Indian university recognizes that. So that's what if this kind of a recognizing body or a multi-versity is there, it gives some kind of a recognition based on evaluation processes which are designed by us, but not by any other examining institution. Yes, so I would like to say that this whole discussion is about a university level training, professional trainings and recognition, not exams. So it has nothing to do with the present setup. It has nothing to do with SIR and Auroville schools. Okay, it has to do with people coming here. So we used to be a tourist hub. Do we want to grow in that direction? Now we have food court in Kula Palayam. Do we want to grow in that direction? Or do we want to develop the knowledge society we are meant to be? So having a multi-versity setup in which adults can come and learn here and have some form of recognition of having spent time here. There's no, I don't think anybody here thinks of a formal exam. Just a way to make this relatable to the Indian context, as Hemant said, or to university in the West. And we have many people who give trainings and classes here, experiential learning. And for now it started with some tourists needing to pass the time, then to a few Indians coming here over the weekend, but to really develop professional trainings with the international professionals we have here in which they could give, would be a really good step for us to position ourselves as the place of unending learning for people from all over the world to come. Can we agree on this? You're good? Yeah. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm going according to the order, so I'm sorry, actually. I understand everybody wants to speak. I will come to you. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Like it's an unending education. I have to say that I never heard about this new term, multiversity, so thank you. And I looked for it on the dictionary and it doesn't exist, actually. So when we try to create a multiversity and I heard several that there are hundreds of them, I thank you for enlightening us. The hub also for me, the hub is a piece of network, piece of hardware. So we talk a lot about buzzwords here without really identifying what we're talking about. I do believe. And then we're talking about education and good education, integral education. Is it really, we have to ask for the parliament for a low for this? I think it's again the block and cart problem here. Okay, joke apart. I think there is an impact on Oroville. Like even if this is created and we are not part of it because as the resources which are allocated by the government to Oroville education to help Oroville with its education would I think inevitably be diverted to this other thing, multiversity if it exists. So that's one point to consider. Then another thing like the, again, like the role of the working committee here. The working committee has set up a committee which is 150th anniversary. It was not open for participation. It's another very close committee and we have a very, very little information about it. And then I hear it's very confusing. Like if Oroville is not a stakeholder or affiliate, as it said, then why the working committee has to put so much effort to this and help the people who want to set up. I, why not, people want to set a campus and create something, why not? Like they call it multiversity. That's not my problem, honestly. But here as a, and individuals in Oroville might want to help that. I have nothing against it. But the working committee of Oroville, no, I'm sorry that there is a problem here. Hemant Sauru, do you want to clarify or wait? It's deep, this time to go. I almost didn't want to speak. When I started to teach in 1985, there were two things clear for me that if I wanted to work in Oroville in education, it was going to have to be free progress because that's what mother spoke about. Okay, so a lot of the people here have been my students over the years. And one thing has been clear. It's not what one specific school does. It's the experience of Oroville itself that creates a type. Now for many years, I have been speaking to various governing boards that if we could recognize this type that gets produced in Oroville. And frankly, I have written a very critical input to the working committee about this multiversity. It's most commonplace, it's most backward-looking. We should just put it aside. I said that to the secretary when on the 9th of November, she called me and that's when I gave her this feedback. I think we should put this aside. It's been formulated by people who do not have the experience of Oroville. And there is something unique about growing up in Oroville, regardless of the school. Whether it's future school, yes, it's true. Last school tries to do something which is very much attempting to be open without rules, trying to turn itself to the future. But it's so difficult for people to be aware of what the future means. In the end, what you want is an inner awakening. Mother spoke about living souls, not brilliant students. Let's stay with that. Now I have a proposal about that. We spoke about it with Dr. Karan Singh then later with the other governing board members also. We could create if it's the question of evaluation. So first, put aside this proposal altogether. I think another point. The only institution that mother launched herself was Oroville. She did not make the Delhi Ashram. It was an individual devotee who did it. The Ashram grew up around her but the only thing she launched was Oroville. It's unique in the world. Not because of who we are and where we are but the dream she's given us which we have to hold very, very carefully. And therefore I would say the other thing about the Ashram. Nehru came to the Ashram in I think 1959. He was very impressed with what the Ashram was doing and he went back and he sent an education commission to the Ashram and the education ministry it was called the education ministry at that time created a special scheme which was called the higher education scheme and under that scheme which was a unique scheme made for the Ashram. The Ashram was given some kind of appreciation. The mother refused to take it beyond that. So what the kids get because she said utilitarianism is a disease I do not want in my Ashram. So they were never given a certificate. My own sister went on to become a PhD in the US from the Ashram school with no paper at all. So I have been arguing if at least the Oroville kids could sit for an entrance exam in whichever Indian institution in the West it's not a problem but in India if the Oroville kids could be given the opportunity like my sister was there were 200 people applying for a masters and she was one of 10 who was selected because they were good enough and I think our Oroville kids are good enough. We just need some and I said it doesn't have to be the foundation it can be from the prime minister. The last thing I want to say is I was part of some of the people who were going around and meeting the ministers meeting the members of parliament in Delhi when the acts of parliament were being passed. First of all the acts were formulated by the most advanced thinkers in India the people like J.A.D. Tata who saw beyond the present who was not bound by the rules of the present. Narasimha Rao who ended up becoming a prime minister after but he said Oroville has to be supported. Mrs. Gandhi I remember meeting her after the act was passed and she said Oroville must stand on its own feet the government should not be heavy handed in Oroville. So from the highest we've heard this I think we have an opportunity if we were to contact the highest people not IAS officers in the ministry but if necessary we could do that we have to present Oroville as Oroville not as one more conventional institute and I trust and I believe you know one of those revelations was that India has become the concentration of the difficulties of humanity and in Oroville in India there will be the solution and you get the feeling that perhaps experiments like Oroville are supposed to offer this solution so let us be in the cutting edge let us not go to the past and let's not create one more institution it's perfectly fine for Gnostic Centre and Sakaar and all they are traditional institutes set up by individuals Oroville is trying to go beyond egoism and individuality and trying to create a collectivity that's on another basis let's please hang on to that and I believe we can Thank you, thank you I still have six people on the list we start from here actually according to the list and then I have you right over there after that you are there so I'm just going to go on that order Ashok I have you on the list as well but these are people who have already approached I'm a bit confused about what will be the impact of Oroville is out of the group of multiversity what will be the impact of that in Oroville education itself if Oroville is withdrawing and not taking active part in this maybe Hemant can say something about that yes, the multiversity at this point is not an Oroville project so it is a project proposed by a coalition of institutions of related to Madurai and Shabindore, two government of India and government of India said that this is the worthy of developing it further so it's if it is to be done it is government of India who will who will do it as an offering for Shabindore and the 150 it is not an Oroville project so yeah just a room and yeah just a room and time check we're nearing six o'clock we're five minutes to go can we just agree to stay a bit so that the six speakers finish is that okay you can ask this question after okay it is neither a national project nor a Gnostic Center project nor a Sakhar project nor an Oroville project so in my understanding Oroville is first and foremost a spiritual community and I understand that the ideals of being a research lab and unending education are very very important and that they're entwined but certainly in my conversations with many Orovillians over the year it's the spiritual community the collective raising of consciousness that is the primary motivation for people being here so my question is how would the presence of a multiversity or an aspect of it affect that goal that intention of the community it's so hard to tell from this document which is so vague and ephemeral what that actually means on the ground for the people living in Oroville for the Orovillians dedicated to this ideal it's impossible to tell if we're going to have 20 students here and two professors or if it could possibly be 10,000 students going around with 300 professors and is that something that we need to consider what is the impact of that on our primary goal as a spiritual community if that is our goal is it going to compromise that goal and our values or will it enhance it and can we even answer that question when we are given so little information about what this vision is going to look like on the ground for us not only on a day-to-day basis as we kind of live out these goals in all their mundanity and gloriousness but in 20 or 30 years time what would be the impact if for example we agree to a multiversity now what is the impact on us as a community and this goal of us creating a spiritual community in mother's vision Hemant Sarabh nothing more multiversity is not created in Oroville Hi I just wanted to ask if we have identified the components for the multiversity as in a university normally we have subjects so have we identified the main components that will be there do we have a framework for it no we don't have a framework of because the idea of it is to keep it flexible for different institutions to design their own frameworks so every participating institution is expected to design their own program I have a so I'm not against Oroville education at all but what happens if someone wants to perceive a profession not a certificate so Oroville in Oroville we have only limited possibilities so you have to have some kind of a body after Oroville education if they want to perceive in a profession in any manner in any direction so some kind of a recognition so that outside universities or educational institution of any kind can recognize that and accept that so is an unanswered question so so I'm hearing that it's not created multiversity is not created in Oroville it's not created by any other organization so why are we discussing so much about it? if there is a freedom that people who want to participate into it can participate Syed had said no they don't want to participate we have people are very clearly voicing it out and same time I'm getting the impression that my God is a super serious subject to stay on we are going to meet a couple of more time I don't get it is a bit like if anyway if you're not asked whether what is your opinion whether if government of India wants to create institution as an offering to Shri Aurobindo and not asking for our permission why are we making so much noise I'm just trying to figure it out and then I'm also seeing that there's a huge amount of freedom for people to participate and not to participate and I just happened to meet Tara sorry thank you I just happened to meet Tara did in there the few days back and she said she was very in the core of multiversity idea and when it came into when it got drafted which got drafted in Gujarat for some reason when it came back to her she said too much bureaucracy I am signing out I get that one so there are point there are freedom you don't participate or you participate or will also has that freedom that we would not like to participate and it's okay but what we are drumming so much about is I'm a bit kind of I'm a little bit lost it seems like that we are saying a lot of things and maybe we don't need to just chill know it government of India is not asking for permission to make it and if they make it don't participate if you don't want to yeah just to remind everyone that this is exactly what we're trying to harvest here if there's a substantial portion which feels in a very specific way it's not just a few individual saying we want to participate or we don't want we can say there was a proper RA consultation and the majority either says yes or no to that with clear reasons this is just the beginning of that well I think uh... the fact that a lot of people are here and that is a doubt is that like me and like maybe other people we have a feeling we are not in control anymore and that if the Indian government wants to do something they will simply do it and because there's no real interaction the last few months like talking about the crown road talking about many different aspects there is not really been a dialogue and I have a lot of people are fearing that things are just being superimposed upon us and this luckily this meeting is making a bit more relaxed but are we really can we say no is there really is there like I think there needs to be a lot more dialogue over many things about the master plan about this and about the many things because there's a deep concern especially after the last meeting with the governing board that Auroville is a failure and now the Indian government is going to do a better job so I think this is an outcome of the of the dead doubts of what is happening at least to me I'm getting scared and I'm getting scared to speak out because I might be endangering my visa you know this is all the things that are happening like here sorry Srimoye it is the reality for many Aurovians right now we are concerned and we are not sure that we can still say no or that we still have any input in what's happening at the moment and I thank the working committee to be here and that we have a have a dialogue at least it makes me feel a bit more quiet but it has to be also spoken that a lot of people are concerned and a lot of people what I say are afraid to speak up because of the visas so that's it thank you we have three wait just to remind yeah giving just also remind you the room that as people start to leave the arrays will also need some time to tell the next steps in the process on how we are going to integrate compile and harvest all these concerns so we need some time for that where would you go so this year? Fred yeah, Fred and then we go to Luigi I think we could close after that if we all agree on it because sorry after you guys after you please go ahead please go based on the draft that we have in which is stated that the Auroville Foundation or Auroville in general should be a founding member I read on the different points the 29th the multiversity shall furnish to the government of India and concerned national statutory bodies reports, returns, statements, documents and other information as may be required by them from time to time but mostly the central government shall have powers to issue directions from time to time as may be required for compliance of the provisions of this act the regulations and under any other law for the time being enforced and the multiversity shall comply with the same this to me means that the government will decide from time to time what we have to do, what the multiversity with Auroville inside has to do and we shall comply so I would like to have an answer about that it may seem to me an interference, a clear interference of the government on Auroville as she was saying before so we are free really to decide would you like to answer that? Relating to Auroville foundation will be the founding affiliate we have said very clearly that Auroville foundation from our perspective we do not want to be a founding affiliate once that gets removed there is no connection with Auroville over there rest is languages which are used in acts this way or that way there are 90 acts for INIs there lot of work still has to happen on this language of compliances but for us there were two important things one is on the Auroville foundation as an affiliate founding affiliate and second is where the hub and from these two point of views we have clearly said that we are not ready for that at this point of time what we are saying is that in the governance structure if Auroville is required to be a part of it then Auroville will come to become part of the governing structure which is nothing to do with being a founding affiliate as there will be nominees of Auroville foundation in the governing board no it is not meant for when it act gets created for a multiversity it is a completely separate entity like Pondicherry University or Jipnar or any other entity like that which is created it doesn't affect because the law which is for Jipnar doesn't affect Auroville good feedback thank you very much that is being recorded Luigi that's what I'm saying this is not a decision making meeting it is recording of what the feedbacks are wait, wait, wait I would second taking over from what Luigi say I mean because the draft the way we have been received I mean we found many shortcoming many comment to many part that need to be we do not agree the point is and I guess that that is quite the pulse that we get from the community as well the point is how we translate this into a no thank you into something constructive that is the point that really we have we have to make and go strong and make a reflection we are facing a crisis I'm connecting very much to what Sonya say crisis is a Greek word that means also opportunity we should deal in a way that we just not say okay we set away one more probably one more danger but we should take an opportunity to grow and find a way I don't have the recipe but we have to continue this conversation that also in Ansper Tuma why we are talking because it's true we have a certain station in our own process we have a certain station in our view and perspective but okay that's why we got this type of message strong message which sometimes we don't like but that we have to take these way to not just to repair and prevent that something that we don't agree does not happen but to create a situation to grow collectively for world and we have many idea inside our veil we have zero we have many other things which project and make up let's collect stick to what is our aim in proposing international zone and cultural zone what do we want to do with that let's give a message in the strong three, four weeks in the next month that we are not just simply say okay we have received a proposal we don't like it we just send a message we are for these when we are dealing with education our real as these objective we have these proposal and we want to implement fast can I know I was me before you just a minute I follow up what dipty said and what you just mentioned I think it's an occasion that we get out of this straight jacket or will equals foundation it is not true we are not bound by the foundation in effect my proposal my vision would be to say like when the mother was asked to separate the ashram from the incident from educational thing she says no the whole of ashram is an educational institute so what we are saying now all members of the residents our researchers in a lab and let this lab be recognized outside of the foundation as a laboratory like dipty said she was there recognized a novel recognition of a institute of higher learning we can get a similar recognition which has nothing to do with the secretary nothing to do with it it can be a lab it can be a laboratory which can bring inspiration to other outside organization like multi-versity shreemoi philip and we're going to wrap it up okay so you see there is all this is very fine there is another way of looking at it you see the the Indian government is celebrating Shri Aurobindo's 150th birthday anniversary they're paying homage to him they're creating this multi-versity all that is written is a typical government language like if somebody comes and hijacks the project for something else the government will interfere that is their language of of writing it so we instead of saying okay let's do it but please don't do it like this because their vision is not like this their vision is like that they believe in this this is how we should participate and not just say no no no it looks very small like we are a community of small-minded you know closed community we should say yes wonderful this is a homage of India to Shri Aurobindo and let's do it together but let's try to do it in the right way why don't we do it and they're all open because the people who sit in the government they know how to write this kind of language but if we come up and say let's do it this way or let's change it to another way of doing it I'm sure they're open to it and I'm sure we can do that so if we want that this multi-versity does not go really into the kind of thing that we are afraid it is going to go into we should get involved and we should participate and give ideas and I'm telling you they will really appreciate that they will slowly slowly something will happen I would say it's more difficult but it is a beautiful attempt and we owe this to Shri Aurobindo you know so that's all I want to say instead of saying no we should say okay let's do it but let's do it in the correct way so that's all I want to say Philip and then some closing steps in process okay just the fear I don't think we should use always fear like sometimes it takes strength to say no and it's very courageous and basically we can just say yes because we fear that something bad will happen so it should be a bit more careful when we use this kind of word a question like arises really like can it happen that we say that yes we are not directly so Auroville is not a direct stakeholder or how do you say like affiliate but then we end up with an act of parliament which mentions Auroville this is a simple question Heman it doesn't mention right now the draft now mentions Auroville this is not the final draft the next draft with our inputs will change so that's why like can Auroville not be like an affiliate and not officially there and then someone makes an act which is validated by the parliament and then oh our name isn't there and we suddenly have something to do with it well for our name to get into it there is a process to get into it if we say at this stage that we don't want then and if that is accepted and in the next draft the in founding affiliate our name doesn't appear there is nobody who can impose it on us other than if governing board decides that it wants to do and we oppose and that's the only situation but I don't think so that's happening I hope so okay so just to be clear on process before everybody leaves this is a live streaming going on on video and audio so many people are watching this as we are engaging here the RAS will meet with the working committee to see how best to compile all the elements that were raised in this room and state it clearly to the wider community in the form of hopefully a reporter an announcement or a mass made we will also keep you in the loop about the next steps if more meetings need to be arranged if the net has to be cast wider for more of the RA to be substantially involved in this topic then I think that strategy also will be harvested in the days to come thank you all for coming out and participating we are going to close out with a minute of silence