 Welcome to the Monday, February the 4th meeting of the Montpelier design review committee I will let members and staff introduce themselves Meredith Crandall staff Steven Everett Eric y'all were some set Martha Smirsty and Just for information as everybody here knows that you've been on the committee or been here many times before We advisory to the development review board and we will hear each of the Applications and move them forward in the meantime. Do I hear a motion to approve the agenda? Second second all in favor of the agenda raise your hand Agenda is approved and our first applicant is for 27 court Street That and Dan come come up to the table. Sorry Good to see you all Hello, again We're Ted Miller face indeed Describe your project Well as you all have heard before This is a long time Coming to plan this renovation of this house that has sorely needed some tender loving care house was built in 1871 and Went through a number of modifications Since then Notable one being adding the third floor unit used to just be an empty attic and structural issues presented over time and The floors are very uneven and so this led us all to look at renovating the house There's other issues like no insulation and not been to wiring and some plumbing issues and some vermin and Number of other number of other issues to address so I rather ambitious renovation we have planned but keeping with the spirit of Being three residential units for a second third floor one you don't need to know The major components we have That that concern this committee Would be changing the windows But keeping all the same placements and infilling a couple of spots where the windows were framed but never placed You see on the on the eastern elevation the driveway side Replacing the doors and Demolishing the addition There's a two-story shed in the back and in addition that Over the last few years as I've owned the house and lived in it Has that space is the kitchen on the first and second floors Those are the main things we're looking at the roof line stays and the siding stays For the time being the porch stays although it's not in great condition itself But the exterior will essentially remain the same With the changes Be removing the You know one little detail but Worth mentioning is that you have a renai heater on the third floor and you can see the renai heater vent just to the right of the window the existing street side elevation and We'll be going to baseboard electric and And air source heat pumps and you won't be seeing any of that venting On the back That's the main yeah, that's the main of this Yeah, it's It's the southern exposure and getting more light into that space As opposed to why isn't it just a straight Yeah, I can I'm assuming he drew that in there is just a way to You know it kind of keeps the it keeps the flow from From the parking area into that rear door a little less obstructed and probably safe and does save some money And then additional footing and prevents a footing from kind of being out there I'm wondering if you know as you know cars the parking area is going to be kind of on that back side Maybe keeping the maybe keeping that that post kind of angled back and Supported back to the house Perhaps there are other ways to Accommodate that structural Well, it's that that's an area for the covered recycling and trash, which is why the porch doesn't go that whole way Yeah, it's just all yeah, no, no, I hear you I had a porch it was a historic porch that had a An angled brach it was more like a bracket or up, you know, it came down about halfway down the wall And I wonder if that would provide enough support And might look a little yeah, I can see that more traditional They would also give you a headroom to Go buy it if you've got storage in the you know in that far corner of the porch for again for recycling Is that is that's what's intended in this area here on the back looking at it? Underneath that little yes Yeah, there's I mean, it's it's nice to bring that post down to the sale for structural purposes There's there's no there's no reason we couldn't put a bunch of framing in well. Yeah, I know also just from if you're actually renting these two They have access to this back porch I take it so six eight I think at six eight you need to have the clearance. I don't know what this ends up being I don't think you would have proper. Oh Gotcha. I see where it is. So you might think bringing it up halfway is a good suggestion Yeah, I think that's a good suggestion. Of course, that would be more structural internally. Yeah, but What you could do and we did it in one location is that you can take a Whatever your post start you could actually particularly if you have a Stud behind it or you can catch a top and bottom plate Take a if that's a four by four. I'm not sure if there's four by four four by six six by six Mount one on the wall coming down and then go halfway out that and strut out and then that gives you Significant amount of yeah, it'll be of stiff support. It'll be gutted on the interior So all of those options are are Bible I See what you've got planned for new windows. What are you thinking about for a door? Is it the front door the back door currently three doors There's a front door a back door and a side door that's on the driveway side Proposals to remove that door on the side on the driveway side and turn that into a window to match all the others And then it is to Renovate the front door and the back door That's that's what I'm curious Is the cut sheet not in there for the front and the rear door so the front door it would be proposed to be a Simpson Wooden door it's presently It's a very large double door presently that is like, you know, hard to know that To you know that which in its present conditions is to small doors So the intention is to or the desire is to make it It's I think it's 42 inches Is to make it one large door with a with that with that grill and Grill pattern and panel pattern and so the front door would be a simpson wood door The rear door on the back side would be a much less expensive So why the change The main reason come across is that that door isn't really bad condition and Functionally, it's difficult to use a 20 inch wide door It has two panels, but it isn't very functional to open up both panels as it has a center lock It's not very secure in that way either. I have actually concurrently just push it open even if it's in a locked position Those double doors are called out in the national register nomination Significant features Is there a way to connect them and make a single door? I Mean that door itself isn't it was a Serious deteriorated shape and it's certainly not There's been some some significant changes to it over time the panels are not our original glass And they're not matching There is no functional lock set In the door when I think he's connecting the two in some way and making a Making a double a single door out of the two double doors and actually leaving those not Functioning is a single door So because that's it. That's a pretty significant piece of the air and protectors Yeah, so So yeah, you're saying it would still be one it would actually function as one door. Yes So the a new door Matches the same bar row as the old with wise. It's very very close So is the bottom floor going to be used for commercial all residential all residential no commercial And this will be a main entrance for the units. Yes for the second and third floor. This would be there their main entrance Really, they're only entrance for the first floor. Where is their main entrance first floor would be in the back? It could be and could you could access the first floor from the front There's a second means of egress from the third and fourth second at third force in the form of a properly sized Okay That worked out but it's in the it's in the form of a properly sized window on the second and third floor And then how do you access? back down to ground level or porch level or from those windows The second floor he dresses out on to There's a there's a a Porch roof that one can get out to and then what I've been told is that the third floor if it's within X number of feet to grade That That we don't need a fire escape if it's within X number of feet to grade which Which it is Because they haven't made There because it's a building inspector. Yeah, but it's basically grandfathered Just as an additional backup they make a really as long as you're reconstructing to make a really nice boxed fire ladder that you bolt basically to the floor and functions as a bench And if you need to use it as a fire ladder you flip the top and down How you let open the window and the fire ladder throws up and it has standoffs from the building. Oh, yeah And you could use that to get down either front backs wherever down to a Portrait Just throwing that out. We did one and it works as a window seat when it's not being used which is hopefully never Nobody forgets about it. I think it'll come to mind if they need it So you were saying the front door specifically In the package here Please double-leaf doors on the east side front bay During how one report So they're called out and You know, it's one of those my I Think, you know that losing the architecture in Montelier is not going to be by Big demolition. It's going to be incremental changes. It's one of the reasons I had Meredith bring up that Horrible remark. You can see how the little changes in that building eventually it ends up losing its architectural character and See some of those things in this I see you know three Changes to the front facade the doors the addition of the windows and the gable and The dormers is being added The dormers existing the dormers existing. Okay, it doesn't show any existing. It's true. That's a that's a mistake That's I picked I noticed that as well. It didn't get corrected, but the dormer is is there presently That if you wanted to get more lighted that upstairs, I think Enlarging that dormer. It's a really skinny little dormer. It is if you enlarge that it would We talked about that. It's just a just a financial Constraints, but but the existing dormer and it's very skinny. Yeah formation is presently there Last time I was before this committee with the prior proposal two years ago, roughly We had a double shed dormers Taking the existing roof and essentially changing it markedly starting at 12 feet back from the facade and from 12 feet back The the remaining 24 feet of the roof line would be a double shed dormer on both sides. That was a significant change Ultimately, we've had to scrap that for now because it's just too costly to get into that The front door is currently in for years now has been obscured by this Equally frustrating double metal Stormboard panel That picture Yeah, first the number of years no one has seen that rather Historic but Difficult to function red door behind it Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay Oh, so you have a double followed by a double. Yeah Double storms So Dan just out of curiosity You know the Simpson door as it's been proposed is you know pushing the $3,000 door You know to have one custom made like I don't know what that answer is but presumably More than what more than more than a $3,000 or triple? I'm sure guess is as good as mine. I think double between double and triple seems like a reasonable guess And that door is not salvageable. I mean anything is salvageable, but it's just a matter of like, you know You know performance wise you know If these that's that's that's one of these exercises where we're kind of Salvaging something and making it work the way we expect a front door to work would you know Cost it I'm sure as much as you know a custom a custom new door Number of things in this house including that door things come across and said I wish 20 30 years ago someone had started caring about that door or that window and Taking care of it or improved it at that point Because some things have just gotten so degraded that it's I Mean, you can poke your finger right into that door in a couple spots. It's so rotted out in a few spots What is the material of the Simpson door for her? It would be be painted though. Have you checked with a fellow between Barry and East my pillier about building one Well, what's in his name? I can't think of his name right now Bruce Bruce. Yes He made a hardwood door for me that was I mean, it's not a 42 inch door But it wasn't a thousand bucks There's beautiful It was an interior but still I mean it was a one and three-quarter loose solid It'd be worth checking with them Mm-hmm, it's just being put on a door closer or anything like that Rear facade there's just paired windows up in the gable end are they existing? Those are proposed that whole rear facade Is presently well the third floor that's the presence of the addition that's currently there kind of covers up Oh, yeah, the vast majority of that Up on the second up on the third floor the windows that you're asking there are two windows that are there We're just pushing them closer together for the floor plan purposes That's why I wonder because The earlier drawings the existence the top and then Yeah, we don't have existing on there because for that particular one It's very easy to understand that Yes, yeah, so you're all confused with this Two singles to again Yeah, I don't know if it'll be factory gang together But yeah, they are they are pushed right up to each other. Yeah, they won't be back together There'll be two separate windows that are trimmed out to gang them together. Is there a reason you're losing the chimney? I know you're not gonna use it anymore It is and it's it's it's an odd one that chimney Does not go down To the basement that chimney starts in between the first and second floor Starts Well, there is there is a closet directly underneath the chimney It was it was my bedroom club my my wife's bedroom closet last year Directly underneath the chimney Anything she wanted like she was gonna put a pair of shoes on for that day. She put them on the top shelf Just because it was closest to the exhaust pipe That would kind of go up and jog around to get into the chimney Yeah, it's we're getting rid of all combustion in the house. It won't be any combustion of any kind no gas stove no No furnace going with heat pumps all electric Totally electric happens. I also find that the added little side windows on the table and on the facade South facade really don't Work very well. So some things that they change in that facade Are there any other alternatives to get more light in there other than those? Small windows There is currently one skylight it was it's not showing but Artificing it. It's the east elevation the driveway side It's essentially right in the middle of the roof about 18 feet off of each cable What room is directly behind the window in the front of the south elevation? It's currently a bedroom. It will be a living room In what room is directly under the skylight? It's currently a room. I couldn't really tell you what it was called. It's the stairs Which are a narrow little set of attic stairs land Essentially right underneath where the skylight is and that room has been It's been used as a dining room slash the refrigerators in that room Because it can't fit in the kitchen because the kitchen is the size of this table And also the hallway to the bathroom It's the kitchen Are you changing the stairway? We are sorry. We didn't it's not exterior. So we didn't keep you the No, I was just wondering if there was a way to do use the skylight to get more light into the front room if that's going to be all open up in a more open floor plan It is going to be a more open floor plan that is presently there, you know up there on the attic See the desire to have as much as much light in there I Do you want to add another skylight inside that one or you're not really You're not a skylight fan This is the proposed to do a leak like that skylight is right there On the left is the proposed second floor on the right is the proposed third floor the skylight is this little It will be Cathedral odd if that's a word cathedralized. It's not currently man, I'm most concerned about changes on the front and the two that the doors and those two little windows are Losing the double doors. I agree with Eric. They're concerning to me as well And to me as well. That's why I brought it up So the first floor and your final plan is there a vestibule that's being created or is it just open to the stair? From the front door. Yeah Yeah, there's a little entry area you can you can you can imagine it's walking the front door There's a kind of the original staircase that will remain there And there's you know, you can go up the stairs or you know, you can You know, you can kind of go along the staircase and there's a there would be a door into into the first floor apartment So there's a little to use your word vestibule Is it a closed though, or is it just opened I mean as you walk in those double doors Are you faced with the stair or is it you are okay? So there's no opportunity strategy savings to to build To leave those leave those doors and then go another like a set of doors like an airlocker Yeah, no, there's I don't think there's enough space before the stair begins. What about interior? Storm doors or you know an interior set of doors you go through the Existing front door and then instead of having a storm door in the front you have something on the inside It could help provide Make it tighter prevent drafts In the name of maintaining the existing doors well, yeah, or yeah, I think if you were to maintain the system And maybe that's not really an option, but just thinking If you were to restore those doors if you could have a set of interior storms As an option But it's conceivable if the doors were custom they could put in double insulated So, yeah, so they would be tight enough Re-gasket it Is there anything special about the glass that's in there now? No, it's quite the opposite it's not not a big glass It is Although it's two different Panels and both of them So each each door panel has a different glass insert. They're absolutely not original Imagine they've been broken a number of times over the years having tenants moving stuff in and out of very narrow spaces I would I would Like to see you come back with proposals And some costs for saving the front doors either make him into a single or Whatever the vestibule piece of it so that they're not remove the storm Doors at that at that point and Some also proposal to remove The Those old side windows we can certainly I don't have any problems a demolition in the back changing the False windows a lot of houses were built with those windows just to Don't want to say a placeholder but to preserve the pattern I don't have any problem with the Door and turning it into a window or or the demolition If we were to suggest that there's a way to you know either retrofit that existing door or or fabricate a new door that That read like a double door as you were suggesting. Yeah, but but functioned as a single door I mean, I think it should It should use the existing door So if we were to say that we could either do that new or Kind of Revise what's there in some way Whichever one is least expensive, but but achieves the function of what we're looking for there Sounds like the ones that are there I'm not sure and I suspect that's true There's any repair option for that. Yeah, if they're that deteriorated. It's almost It's cost-effective to build a new door as it is to try to have a piece. Yeah Yeah, so in patch so that back together in this in that spirit if we were to say that we would then fabricate a new door That's that Functioned as a single door, but but red as this as this upper image does Yeah, the profile of that Existing or the double door You know, I don't know if there's a I don't think there's like an astragal where the two doors meet I think they're just kind of like slobby fitted together So maybe that's just in the form of like, you know a soccer down the middle of that door Just to give it that to give it that I guess the question would be the handle Interesting right right Yeah, well the dark dark handle on one side whether it's a knob or something that you know sort of disappears I don't want three knobs. We want one. Well one knob for the new door But it could be a you know a thumb latch handle or a knob or whatever you're proposing for hardware What's there now? There is one knob on the right hand panel as you're looking at it when it when it opens from the middle correct Yeah, when I want it hasn't fallen off Yes Is the door proposed to be a right-hand swing to the inside against the wall correct, okay, so it'd be a knob on the left correct Dark browns or something what color what fits for a natural color? I would think they're finished painting it We would be painting it Similar to the color that is existing it could be the same What one question I think we're faced with oftentimes that we really need guidance for on this commit from this committee is a question like that do you go with Creating a door that is the same color and sort of maybe tricks the Maybe tricks the viewer into thinking that that's original when it's not or do you do you do something that? In some way respects the original but is distinct so as to not confuse the viewer that it's not an original element Something that would be compatible with doors of that time if you were to take a Disstander and work your way through you probably would find sick you could find four to six different colors as you work your way through I Mean some people have tried to go down to the original color but anything you know most of the doors were either dark green or a dark burgundy or I Mean there was a variety of colors black dark browns I mean the variety of colors that were put used You know a hundred years ago So anything Actually Burgundy color So again one of the again one of the criteria that we use when you're evaluating the project Preservation of reconstruction of the appropriate historic style so preservation or Reconstruction, yeah, obviously reconstruction or we're building something new to match what was there if something's deteriorated beyond its Useful life if we can't restore it, you know you rebuild a new one to match So because we're talking about changing it from a double to potentially a single door that looks like the double Because this comes to the whole not having the knobs in the middle or fake knobs in the middle You just want the one knob the rest of the door still looks the same But because it's not original. Yeah, put that knob over as long as for the colors match in the style of the fixture, right? Yes, okay For those at home and for me as I'm learning Yeah, my first preference would be to leave the double doors fix them That's the first preservation option would be to leave the double doors But make them functional That's the first preservation the second I think preservation option would be to somehow connect the existing doors and leave those as make it as a single door and the third is replicating a All the form and shape except make it into a single door So if we committed to doing one of those three options And in full disclosure, I haven't and I think we both have you know And I both have an interest of walking out of here tonight with something that doesn't require us to come back here in two weeks I'm not okay, so You know if we were to commit to one of those three options Is that something you know? You know is that something that can be kind of written into the notes that this that this approval is contingent on one of those three things And we can you know evidence that Get a quote for all those things so you can see the See the full picture of what we were looking at here And just one note because you are coming in two weeks for the development of you board They could I could potentially just submit those to you In two weeks to look without them coming you want in those comments can still go to the development review board that evening Well, we can give them the all to give them the alternatives now and as long as they would agree to that They don't even need to come back to us. I mean I'm just saying so you can And what about the width of the proposed door you're not going to require them to go to a 42 inch single door Well, no, I think that was one of the options, right? Yeah, I mean it's If you're gonna we'll build a new door you want a 42 inch door. Well, that would that would match what that would yes, yeah We could build new double doors That could be an option as well And it just depends on the condition. I Condition it's just some of these old things you probably know are easy to repair Not easy to repair but repairable because they're put together with dolls they can come apart and new pieces can be made Yeah, I can just appreciate the from a user's perspective Squeezing through a 20 inch door with you know, you know a little groceries. It's like not not ideal I'm talking about the if you build a single door to Replicate that design. Do you want a 42 40 38 or 36? Sounds great Which is actually Frequently used commercial door I think the little side windows and the gable I think you need to find another way to get the light I don't have any problem with additional skylights understand the Technical difficulties with skylights No, they're not great from Maintenance heat loss or whatever But those those windows on that on the primary facade of the building Just our significant change What about changing from that one window to? two windows similar to the similar to the style on the back we're showing rather than having two tiny windows a Sort of as a head and shoulders as he currently you're seeing on the front Doubling the front window and then some and somehow not hitting the Collis the I think that's better than this, but I think the front facade of the building is very You know it's incremental change to do I don't care on the rear and that's fine to do it that way but on the main facade of the building we had to do as much preservation as we can We're going to small shed dormer be To cause way perhaps to do Is that to be still a patient sort of set that small one in the living room area? As you know, I think we're already up against some financial Ceilings. Yeah, so I don't think it's viable to introduce Expense like that. I Would love to have double shed dormers from a head height perspective Getting more light in it is a major change in the building Especially on the east elevation is that's the driveway side and you see that as you're walking towards the same house That's the side of the building you see as you're walking towards the same house the other side is up against the other house and it's obscured by a tree so it's Has carries less of an impact on that side and it wasn't thinking it's something that's spanned the whole roof so just you know And up to provide more light in the living room and then have it sit back from the time to go That's the asphalt shingle correct. So skylight Compared to a dormer has to be significantly cheaper for sure Call out flat siding I mean it's just Like tongue and groove or shiplap. That's an absolutely flat surface And that and that goes on the dormer as well Yeah, although actually I'm not you haven't been able to really crawl up there yet. It's there's this There's this Well, you can see it in some of the existing photographs. There's this asphalt siding that's that's covering up You know a good part of the building now and including the dormer sidewalls I actually am hoping that That there's perfectly viable clapboards underneath those underneath that asphalt siding that can just get cocked and painted up there It does show on the dormer presently could just don't know the condition of what's underneath that asphalt siding but you'll see that the majority of that is on the Rear side of the building and on that little kind of first-floor little bump out on the on the west elevation So if it would clap underneath would you replace it in kind or you would you still go with this If you had to replace the clap for the dormer Well, we know it's not going to be clapboards on the backside because that addition You know, they it's like that addition is presently glommed on to the rear side of the building So maybe there's a handful of clapboards kind of up above the roof line But based on kind of some window locations and the demolition of the addition There's gonna there's just not there's gonna be practically nothing left there to to salvage on the rear side of the building Does any today that's your question Well, you're you're proposing a different siding is what you're saying. Yes on the rear side the door of the part of the south That's like 10 feet back. So mm-hmm. Yeah, I did peak underneath the asphalt siding down there on the bump out because it's on the first floor and it's it's just it's It's it's been butchered over the years. It's not it's not something that's gonna the asphalt's not gonna come off and This the clapboards aren't gonna be in great condition underneath it. It's probably did those dormers and additions That assholes probably is when they built those I Understand why you say that but there is there is clapboards underneath. I don't know about the dormer But I know that on the bump out. There's there's clapboards underneath it Is there any good condition there in terrible condition the flip siding is being chosen from the cost perspective Well, there are any other options proposed for the front window I Understand the desire to have more light up there But I think that if you paired those windows at that elevation it looks to me like you'd run up right up against Tram work So I think that gets to be problematic on the back Also, it looks like there's a less Trem less fascia board on the back. It's not as much. There's not as much detail. So then it's Is there no Wow It's just like they stopped the nice details Just stopped them and they didn't like return them around the back or complete complete it That's interesting when you look at that existing, you know detailed corner boards and and the Overhang and all the trim and then back. It's like wow It's all there on the front side like every piece of fancy adornment you could want is all right there on the front side Wonderfus don't like that in the 1870s when it was built I will have to consult the original building instructions. I have 12 handwritten pages that The instructions from the designer the architect to the builders how to build aspects of the house And it's it's some of it is to do it the with the plaster. Mm-hmm perform the plaster job Not all the 12 pages are legible Wow 12 pages I found in the space between the second and third floor along with an old can of Something maybe a hair product from the 1890s That's mold Classes save money there's a grocery book an old grocery book Is the existing skylighting condition it's in fair condition that doesn't leak It's operable. Is it a Baylux or a fixed or It it articulates opens Crank or yeah cringed or correct. No, it's just wondering if it wasn't a good condition So similar to the door, I guess I'm wondering if we can Propose what like, you know, if there are other options that would be acceptable to The board I'm I guess I'm similar to the door I guess I'm interested to see if you can have a similar conversation Regarding windows is it is there are there no alternatives that would be acceptable You know, would it be acceptable to have two windows and You know have the trim kind of overlap and see that sometimes, you know, where the the head casing overlaps the freeze board You know, it's Would that be it would that be would that be acceptable? What's the height off the floor of the silt inside? No, then I know that's I'm not sure where the port system is Having open and close that window a number of times Just thinking I wonder if you could achieve it if you could do you get it to and lowered it Similar to the really to replicate the rear side of the building Would that be acceptable? Yeah, I mean, I think that Understand that you do something with the door, but I think avoiding changes to the primary facade Pretty important to get away from this You're done And I mean the other facades changing doors to windows, that's all fine I think an additional skylight would be fine. I don't like changing the windows in the front Skylights would be one of the Whose money are we spending I don't know that guy What's the size of the skylight that's there now I really don't know I haven't It is on the does show on the floor plan You can kind of see it on one of the pictures of the side of the building. Yeah I mean it's something like 20 by It's not it's not a it's not a huge it's not a huge skylight unit. It's a very Skyline skylight it's something to the tune of 2022 36 by 36 or 42 or something like that What's the framing graph? On center on center. I don't know yet Yeah, I'm sure there's a skylight that can just drop right in between. I'm sure they're you know They're I'm sure they're space Further apart than we would build it presently in 2019. So they're logs You're leaving the logs are you gonna someone 12 inch 12 inch rafters beside it. We do need to put something on them for insulation depth But we're leaving we're leaving what's there there, but they don't provide I'm assuming that I'll provide I haven't seen But I'm presuming that they're they won't provide the depth we need for insulation purposes. So this is tangential But what are you insulating just that curiosity spray spraying it? Spray foam what Purple and spet like who does your foaming all seasons or I've ever used the soy based No No, we did use I It wasn't a soy based foam, but it's a zero GWV product GWP product like forgetting the Some places are having problems with soy based product I Actually, I don't know if she foam I had to sheet my mice apparently like She foam I've had a couple of projects where I've get calls from clients saying there's these little She foam Dropings on the floor. There's the mice like she foam to really put away to kill mice I Genetically So the windows are what are we what are we what are we saying? Thank you proposal is to hopefully you would be willing to either add another skylight or a bigger one To replace the one that's there This one that's there you have a crank or Does have a crank and it opens outward correct? Which would be new have to be Operable So you could have could you conceivably add a skylight Fixed on the skylight side the existing skylight side. Do you have room to flip one over to the other side? Room in in what sense roof area. Oh, yeah, there's plenty of roof over there. Yeah Yeah, I just think We can certainly we will look into You know the financial analysis of it, but I would not be surprised if it's dead not on arrival, but on You know first glance To do to or to just to do any additional skylight to do any work. We're at that point budgetary wise Yeah, we're scaling back significantly from all the interior stuff that we already hope to do But you'd be eliminating these two smaller windows I Mean the view is not terrific. You look out into The biggest flight in the city of Montpelier, which is the pit The backside of the post office and not mutual insurance company deal with that one day But it's it's perfectly south-facing and does get great light Part of the building heats up really nicely Currently because there's no insulation Then a number of things we have to cover with this including the demolition and I'm fine with that. I went back and looked at that one of the other times He came to you and pretty much junk and You're replacing all the windows Yes, and there are they true divided lights They're similar With the spacer bar the spacer bar and on the outside as well So that you're not just not looking at one flat place in class. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah with a Marvin window. That's how those are done You know, there's the That's the exterior and interior of the Senate just has the Simulated and has the spacer bar point the two things of class changing the doors into the windows and eliminating the Changed the door into a window Removing the clabbered windows that you have Removing the chimney Well, that's there's one picture here. We see the chimney and it looks like it's you can see the deterioration Yeah, I think you can see through the top courses I don't know that there was a fire in the building but On the second floor Done some interior demolition around the chimney and exposed some of that to gauge its condition and there is a Significant amount of soot on all of the not even on the chimney but on all of the logs and all of the All the structural support around it extending out to ports of a few feet Don't know or char char char. Yeah Probably had a chimney fire at one point Could have been With a boxed-in like that. It's amazing. They saved the building I'm not sure how some things happen with this place It's a bit of an history Interesting to know I've had some some folks who Specialized in This era of construction and reconstruction and they said that the second floor These three windows here none of that's original that this was it was actually a porch that was inset on the second floor It's all framed out The first eight feet going back from that wall on those windows that that would have been in really an inset porch They showed me where the door was and how everything was lined up the framing for the windows Set that porch and that they later added Closed it in That'd be nice to have Yeah This is the west elevation here, right? So that has the asphalt shingles on the Elevation itself, so you're hoping to remove those and Find clavours underneath. I think that's what we're gonna find there. Yes, because otherwise if they weren't a good shape We put new clavours back That bump out is also likely to be original although It is old The there's there's not a discernible break in the flooring on the interior I actually crawled around in the crawl space a couple of weeks ago and so evidence that I think it actually is Could it could be original? Okay? It's it's been a point of debate for a while. Okay What is it used for? The bump out. Yeah, it just extends the rooms just makes the rooms larger, but it's not a It's not a separate room correct It's about four and a half feet Thank you Wish you could speak to the builders You have their thoughts Some of them. Yeah Those be very cool to frame. Yeah. Yeah. I've got an appointment with the state Architectural historian. Yeah, I did speak with David Sheets and he's connecting me with the Architectural historian get all the documents and all the things I found cleaned up And I'm sure we'll find more over time Dated from what year What did I do? 1904, I think it was We'll see if I know whiskey bottles Or newspapers. Yes, lots of newspapers. I found many shards of newspaper Yeah, and newspaper that was I don't know glued on the glass or adhered to glass Some walnut shells They were found in bunches Yeah Tenets Yeah, was it with you or standing in the driveway and we saw the squirrels. Yeah, two houses over and I guess it'd be 23 Court Street Just a couple squirrels running around and just hold the size of a pie plate right in the freeze board They did they did that to my house I trapped squirrels I caught in Three weeks I caught 50 squirrels I'm relocated Which I since found out was not Appropriate against the law were they 50 unique squirrels or 50 different unique squirrels or maybe Visitors I thought they were I thought maybe they're coming back. So I painted all their tails To see if they're coming back and one one I came back for more Can I summarize what I think we're what I think we're saying here tonight? There's that there's two there's two items on here that As drawn are are not going to be acceptable to design review the door which we're all on the same page about that That was a clear and lucid conversation the window what I what I think we're saying is that we're not changing the facade of the South facade and that that existing window is going to be the existing window and if we want to add more light Or one chance to do that is a Skylight is that the subject of what we're saying? Let me read what I wrote down just from everybody's what everybody's saying And if I need to amend this let me know from the committee or the applicants and for the door We said recommend one of the three options for the front south-facing door Repair reconstruct the existing 21-inch double doors number two Repair reconstruct and attach the existing double doors that they function as a single door Or number three replace the front double doors with a new single 42 inch door with an appearance and profile Which matches the design of the existing double doors In kind That's a fourth option It's a brand new 21-inch Double doors, which even though they would still be narrow You might be able to have a different bassiner in the middle that would work better than what you have Yeah, it's it's it's all about the function and Being mindful of second and third floor tenants sharing that space No, we have My husband's family has a cottage with those double doors So again the fourth option is we replace the existing double doors with new in kind Same thing and then for the window there were recommendation was not changing the single window in the south face of the attic level alternative Recommendation is to add either an additional skylight on the east or west side of the roof Or increasing the size of the existing skylight would be the fixed or operable skylight The fixed aren't that expensive We replace two of those In a roof job and I was surprised they didn't cost any more than the originals had 30 years earlier Originals were operable these were fixed and it was a nice it was it was a valox fixed valox Did we want to say something about the back porch when we were talking about the brace? Is that something that we wanted to say angled brace? Did you want to leave that as an alternative or a recommendation? Well, I mean, I think it would Maybe function better if it didn't come all the way down and it would look better too. I think To have it angled But maybe it's it's not a requirement You know If you have circulation directly underneath that you're basically forcing people to Otherwise You'd have a lot of fun and on the third floor of this house as it is presently Navigating the kitchen in the bathroom And I've got a few inches on you and I've had a lot of fun on it. Just have to find a tenant who's about 411 That's right. I should put that in the advertisement. I'm probably getting into trouble for not being an equal opportunity Scriminating against all people like myself Adding that that unit really changes the use of the building Is there any a Logic or it would be advisable to put in your notes the what I heard new Eric say about the condition of of That re-ordition as we gear up to talk with development review. Is there any sense of adding this I Always get the boards and committees mixed up. I forget which is which part of me but is it is it is there any logic in And having you all from design review suggests that the quality of that addition is Is truly substandard? I hope so. I'm not sure that's true, but I hope so Basically if we don't comment on it, it's approved as you applied Okay, and it's approved and again, we'll go through the criteria which I still have to do and that'll It should be explained why it's approved There'll be especially because you have a two-week time period here in between. There'll be minutes from this meeting That will cover more than just what's written down here that we'll talk about the different things that were discussed today And those can be brought forward to the deer meeting Yes, well except you'll be If you approve them they'll be at least a draft draft with your notes And again their rear brace where you just the recommendation is raising the rear support brace for the rear portrait to allow headhike room for accessibility In the criteria Evaluation criteria number one preservation reconstruction of the appropriate historic style of the proposed projects in the historic district involves an historic structure Again acceptable with the recommendations Harmony of exterior design with other properties of the district again acceptable with the recommendations Compatibility of proposed exterior materials with other properties in the district acceptable Compatibility proposed landscaping not proposed in this application Prevention that the use of incompatible designs buildings color schemes or exterior materials acceptable Location and appearance of all utilities no change in lighting or exterior We don't perhaps it didn't make it into the application me. I do have some some exterior like safety lighting Couple of like one next to the front door and one All along the back is there lighting by the front door now Yes, no yet non-functioning Yes, there is a fixture there like a wall wall or ceiling light It's a wall Okay Yeah, next you put something back there same thing, okay So that's really not a change Yeah, I guess that is there anything Significant change or an addition I guess all lighting on the rear I guess and we're not showing it But we should have so thank you for bringing it up there there should be lighting on the next to the rear door so we can And then the rear right now is is it yeah, that's gonna be demolished, right? So the new rear Yeah, so wall fixture or a ceiling Can actually say either one Put on an emotion and every time the raccoon Yes, that squirrels biggest issue has been skulls No, we didn't shoot them in the basement, but they they they made it in the basement and And in doing so they spray a lot and It came up through and into the first floor and completely covered all my tenants clothing two legislators This was two years ago Right about this time. It's it was right in February. It's baby season And there was a cleaning bill for all of their clothes Really it was really special They're gonna call it to you smell it. Yeah, no We could make a comment about a legislator smell like that I got a few really spirited phone calls The building's been sitting completely vacant since September Not at the moment I Just I enjoy the view of the state house from the little dormer window there is Little dormer looks right onto the dome. Yeah, and you can't get it remembering when to turn your head sideways Yeah, we'll have just just a little bit more room to work with that. They get visualizing. Yeah It's about seven inches. There's seven feet two inches now There's I mean, there's there's whether they're called considered color ties or just ceiling nailers There's there's structure up there presently, you know, that's ceiling height So that's just going to the structure that is there is the structure that will stay there Those those color ties That's really what they are We'll just stay exposed With the log rafter sometimes it's a goodness that are just using it two by four across Just put up one inch on either side so you don't get twisting the log rafters Get just as much strength That's the experience So for the utility we just said either wall-mounted or ceiling-mounted light fixtures The side or above the rear door at applicants option may be installed for illumination of the door and the trash I can't say a trash recycling area or approval And the last recognition of and respect for view quarters and significant vistas including gateway views of the city and state house Not applicable at this location all in favor of the application with the changes recommended raise your hand and one of you can sign that up of My name Thank you for your patience flexibility Check the Bruce Thank you, good luck with your project Minutes of January the 22nd That's right No, it's good to have somebody read them carefully and know when something is not as clear as it's public record No, it's nice. Well, I mean the good thing is the videos are always there So people really want to take and just I don't go through the whole thing, but this is Yep, well, and that's and that's after I officially reviewed them and tried to catch where I can so thank you So basically these were two parking lots And if there are no changes required to where I hear a motion will prove I'll move to a group them Here's second. I'll second it. You were gone. Yes So all in favor raise your hand Minutes are approved any other business Go ahead motion to adjourn Second second All in favor of adjournment raise your head