 I'm the host of the Gamer's Change Lives podcast. It's a show where we talk to eSports entrepreneurs around the world to talk about how eSports can create jobs, almost anywhere, especially in emerging markets. And I'm sitting in today for Catherine Neuer, who generously let me take over her chair here today. And we're gonna be talking with two accomplished female eSports and gaming entrepreneurs, who have made an impact in the wide world of eSports from places like Africa, Southeast Asia, China, US. First, the first guest is Eniola Idan from Lagos, Nigeria. She's the founder and CEO of Gamer Africa, which has been doing amazing things across the African continent. Welcome, Eniola. Thank you very much for having me, Tom. Where are you talking to us from? I'm talking to you from Dallas, actually, in the US. Great. So not in Lagos? No, not in Lagos at the moment. And I'm doing a lot of traveling because there are a couple of meetings and events with Amacanden and the US currently. Great, great. We also have Chantelle Denise Ortega. She works at Galaxy Racer and is one of the founders of the Asia chapter of Women in Games. Welcome, Chantelle. Hi, Tom. Thank you for having me here again and thank you to Think Tech Hawaii for having us. So where are you speaking to us from? I'm currently here in Mexico City. When I had the guesting at your podcast, still here, but leaving this week. Oh, really? Where are you going to? I'll be going to Lima Peru for about the month. Wow, that sounds great. That sounds great. Now, today we wanted to have a discussion on how culture impacts women in esports and games and more of a conversation, not just about women in games, but how culture impacts people joining the industry and also rising to the top levels in the industry. Now, as I say on my podcast, I am not the expert, I'm more of an explorer and that's definitely the case here. The role of women in society differs from location, from culture, from history. And these factors are going to make an impact on women in games. So starting with the question, I'll start with you, Chantelle. How does culture impact women in the industry from your experience on the countries where you've been? Yeah, so I come from the Philippines. I personally believe that women in my culture are seen as somewhat powerful. What we call mothers in our culture is like the Ilo ng Tahanan, meaning the light of the house, which I take it as a guiding. We are the guides for people in our company and our family. And I think for the Philippines, there's not really a huge difficulty to enter the games industry. However, when I entered the games industry, it was because there was an opportunity in Malaysia. So that's how I got into the gaming space. And I believe that for that country, there's just some cultural practices that will make it difficult for a woman, such as myself, to actually meet, for example, government agencies who you want to have conversations with. And did you find it different from the Philippines to Malaysia? Yes, because I feel like in the Philippines, I could just like go meet whoever I want, you know, but in Malaysia, they do have some religious and cultural practices wherein, you know, when you're a woman, you can't offer your hand when you're meeting someone. And then my experience was there was this instance that we were going to be working with a government agency. But then since it's Malaysia, it's a Muslim country, the practices are different. They said to us that they would prefer to talk to a male counterpart. But the problem was I was the only one in my esports outfit. So we had to hire another guy to join. Just to speak for you. Yeah. Yes, I remember being up for a job to go to Indonesia. And this has been many years ago. And they're like, no, he's too young. We can't have someone that young. People won't listen to him. So there are some situations like that. How about in Africa, Eniola? How does culture impact women joining the esports industry? Thank you very much for the question, Tom. I mean, just listening to Shantel talk about the Philippines and jealous, right? When we made the regatta, I mean, we got women at the light of the house. It's very different here on the continent, on the African continent, because again, women, the way that women, I mean, the description for women is typically the old makeup, right? So there's almost no place for a woman even in across different sectors, not just gaming, right? So when you're not talk sports, you're not talk esports, right? It is heavily male dominated. So taking, I mean, just taking that head on and stepping into the space takes a lot of audacity and guts to be really able to say, this is what I'm doing and this is what I want to do and this is how I am going to do it and this is who I am. So it's very different here. There's almost no place for a woman in terms of, you know, you're trying to build a career out of something at all. And then I'll talk esports. But I also, I believe we're starting to see I mean, some sort of changes in that narrative already. I mean, I did it. 30% of my team members manage, management of management at Gamer with women, right? So again, it's almost been that change that you want to see. And then, you know, it's one step at a time and we're doing it already. So what do you think of the differences between, because I know like in talking to you before about doing your Gamer X 10 Nation Tournament across Africa, you're talking about, you know, some people from Central Africa, East Africa and West Africa where there's a complete language difference there. It's one of the things that I was learning more about was just that how French is the native language, the native language that people speak in West Africa. Do you notice a difference between the different regions in Africa as far as women's access to being in the esports business? It's a common problem on the continent. That's the, that's the simple answer. It's a common problem on the continent. I mean, we celebrate, we literally celebrate when a woman get a role that has been settled with a lot of male domain for years. So it is a general problem. It is common. It's not specific to Nigeria, our origin market. It's something that we have witnessed across the various markets. However, the narrative is changing like I mentioned earlier. No, let's talk about that for just a second. First with you and then with Chantel, you're saying things are changing. What's making them change? I would like to say that the cost form that the changes within is again, women are taking up roles. I'm going to make reference to a young lady who recently emerged as 30 on Forbes for Africa. She's a queen arrow, right? She is a Tekken player and for such recognition. I mean, there's been a lot of male players in that industry and on the continent for a very long time, right? But she got the recognition because I believe she's gone the extra mile to showcase our work, to walk the work and walk the talk and intentionally creating space and taking up space for herself. And that is what we're saying. There's been a lot of education around female gamers as well, as well as the female checking up positions and roles in the industry. So, I mean, the world is paying attention and this is talking in terms of global presence for the continent and women are really doing this. Gamer is literally present in 12 markets on the continent. We are working with different partners from every part of the world and it sees a woman leading that. That in itself is a statement to the rest of the world and even the continent that, I mean, if you give women the chance and the opportunity, they will make something out of nothing. So, I don't have to say that is the reason, I mean, that is a major reason for what a change we're starting to see now in the industry. That's great. So, Chantel, are you seeing women making something out of nothing in your experience? And what is, are you also seeing changes in some of the markets? Just one of the things I learned about in talking to you and other people about galaxy racer is just how many different cultures, how many different countries galaxy racer is part of. So, are you seeing changes also for women in some of the places that you're working in now? Yeah, definitely. So, when I started in eSports and gaming in 2019, there has been a lot of focus on just like pushing a lot of eSports tournaments, but not really like now when they want to have focus on like female initiatives, like women empowerment, female gamers and all of that, which is very good. Seeing that change throughout four, three years is really amazing because, you know, that what you're doing is making a difference. You know, when I joined women in games as an ambassador and then eventually as a leader for women in games Asia, I realized that there are a lot of women in the industry who just don't have support or who just don't know anyone. And, you know, by meeting other like-minded ladies like Anyola here, we can really make a difference wherein, you know, we support, we empower, we give them what we need. And it's a feature that I am looking forward to wherein, you know, gender doesn't matter in gaming. Yeah, yeah. One of the things I remember you talking about when we were, when you were on the podcast was talking about creating a pipeline because you were talking about inviting more women into the industry, but also creating a pipeline for women to go to the very top levels of leadership. Can you talk a little bit maybe about how culture impacts women to be the leaders, the top leaders of a business in places where you are, Chantel? Yeah, definitely. I do want to raise that for example, in gaming, right? What we know is that it's a male dominated industry. Gaming has always been targeted at men. So from my, in my point of view, it's like, you know, it's not the men's fault that they're the ones being targeted for gaming, but it's more on like the cultural practices. It was just the norm for like the first few decades of gaming that, you know, it's mainly guys or like playing. But for now, there is a lot of changes. For example, we do want to have more representation for our young female gamers to actually, you know, when they grow up, they can really take up profession as an esports athlete. And on the creating a pipeline, it's one of our pillars for women in games where we prepare, we expose ladies interested to join the industry to different workshops, networking, expose and all of that, which I didn't have when I started this industry, which I think is really beneficial to those who are like interested to join, who are seeing a lot of developments in games. No, I think you're doing a lot of great things there. I mean, I'm always hearing good things about what women in games in particular is doing. Iniola, in Africa, do you see that there's a distinction between women just joining in the esports industry and also being able to run an esports organization? I mean, talk about a role model. I mean, you are already running one of the top esports organizations in Africa. Yes, we're seeing a lot of that. I think first is the mind, it's the mind barrier. I think that some reason gaming is from a perception standpoint has been perceived for a very long time as a male thing. So what we sort of deploy, I mean, what we deployed when we were starting out and I made this, I made this an agenda, right? Is the education. And I'll also use this opportunity to say to a lot of females who want to get in the industry or being in the industry and you just think that I can, or you can be, or I can be as an athlete, right? They're different. I mean, think about the esports and games industry as, I mean, think about it in the entire full spectrum, right? You can be an events producer. You can be, you can be anything. I mean, there's a digital opportunity as well. You can be anything. It's an industry just like any other industry. So you really necessarily don't need the skills, right? You don't have to be a gamer to be in the industry. That's really no barrier as to what you can become, right? Where you just like set your mind to it. If it's an industry, you find interesting. And the truth is for me on the continent, we're just starting, you know, I feel like the future is so exciting, like Shantel said, I really, I really want my heart. We're just starting. And because of this, you know, there are several opportunities that should be taken off by women. And because again, if women can take off these opportunities then, you know, we're also pulling the ladder back down for more people and opening up spaces for more women in the industry. But I think there is no limit. And I think that should be the message really. You can be anything. You can be a content writer in the gaming industry and e-sport industry. You can be anything, right? From just that, from being an Intel, to intent, to an associate, to, I mean, the full spectrum and open to getting into a leadership position overall in the industry. One of the things I like in talking with you, and it's like every single time, almost every time I hear you talk, you start going through a list of all the jobs that can be created in e-sports. And I think that is so good because a lot of people, I'm Queen Arrow, an excellent role model if you're going to be a player. But like you said, and when you were on the podcast, you were talking about one that's always stuck with me, a drone operator. You hired a drone operator for the van. I thought, man, how exciting would that be to be the drone operator inside one of these places? Also wanted to then touch on, first maybe with you, Aniola, how important is the education? And maybe are there changes that need to take place in education to give more women the skills to join the industry? I think that's the base of, and that's the foundation. You cannot be what you don't know and you cannot even aspire to be what you do not know. So I believe that's the base for the engagement and for the conversation. One of the things, I mean, thankful to you, Tom, for putting this together. Chantel will make my work easier because one of the things I had in mind attending Paris Games Week later this year is to really have conversations with organizations such as Women in Games and see what representation of that body can be in Africa. So that we can then start to tool that in because it's the foundation of anything, right? We really need everyone, I mean, particularly women who, you know, they're aspiring to get in the industry. They wanna get in the industry, but they don't know how. They don't understand anything. They don't know, I mean, they just don't get it. So it's important for us to do that. It has to be very intentional. We have to be deliberate about it because it's the foundation. If we do not educate or showcase the opportunities or, you know, tell the story correctly and, you know, spotlight women who are doing amazing in this space that people can turn to and see as role model, then it's going to be a really hard sell. So if you ask me, my simple answer will be education is really the baseline for this change we all want to see. Is that the same for you, Shantelle? Yeah, definitely. And, you know, calling attention to our cause, having partners who really believe in the same advocacy with us, wherein, you know, you want to educate your younger audience. You want to train them. You want to create a pipeline, as we mentioned, wherein they can really inject themselves into the industry with what the skills they have. And so if there turns out to be an Africa chapter of women in games, this show gets credit. You guys get credit for making something like that happen. So one of the things I wanted to talk about here also is, in the only you were starting down that road, maybe I'll let you finish. What advice would you give someone starting out? What if there's someone that is thinking, you know, maybe, you know, maybe I have the skills to do it and so on. What advice would you give to a woman of any age interested in joining the eSports gaming industry? Eniola? Just do it. Really? Yes, just do it. And I'm not a gamer. You know, I'm not a gamer, right? I got interested. I mean, it was something that caught my attention from just traveling around the world and, you know, thinking back and seeing the talents that exist in my home country and on the continent. And I saw that great opportunity and I said, you know what, we are going to build this. We're going to build out the industry. I had little to zero knowledge. I'm not even going to say little. So this is me just getting up and saying, I'm going to do it and I am doing it. Of course, it will be unfair of me to say that I haven't received significant, significant amount of support from people who believed in this crazy vision or mission that I am back to. And those people sort of provided me with the support needed to thrive and make the journey easy as we continue to build out. But it started with my mind. I'm just going to do it. I'm just going to get up and do it. And I will find support that I can leverage on. I mean, Tom, you have been instrumental in our story in the last couple of months since we met you. I'm a musician till now. I'm really truly hoping, you know, we will build a lot of things out together. And just do not be afraid to ask for help, really. I mean, I say it all the time, no one gets credit for going the difficult route or taking the difficult route when you can find support or find help, if you just ask. You know, everything you need, that's something that I say to myself, everyone you need to meet and everything you need, but just fight those away. So do not be afraid to knock on those doors. So I think ask for support, ask for help. And of course, you cannot just do it without making that decision. So get the requisite knowledge as well. You have to learn, you have to unlearn and you have to relearn. Because there's certain beliefs that you have that you have to draw if you really want to like thrive in a space that naturally has been considered as on feet for you by all means necessary. So I think first is just do it, get off. So ask for help, ask for help. However, you will get knows, of course, but the knows are always, always super, super interesting for me, I take them as challenges and I'm like, I'm going to make you come back to me. Yes, no, that's a great approach. And I think one of the things that I learned certainly in talking to almost everyone on the podcast so far is that they're doers. They don't sit around, they're not looking for roadmap. They're not looking, they're not, they're not waiting for permission to go do something. They're just going to go do it. So Chantel, what advice would you give someone who is thinking about joining the eSports, the gaming industry? I would have to agree with Anyola that yes, just do it. Cause like, I just found out you also are not a gamer initially, but you know, as I mentioned in our podcast, Tom, I was also by accident came into this industry. And that is why like, you know, we have to educate ourselves like, what do we want to do? Like, how is the ecosystem of the industry? Because you know what I found out? Whatever skill you have, we can really inject it into eSports, you know? A lot of my colleagues in Galaxy Racer, well, half of them are gamers, half of them are like from different industries, but it works because, you know, they bring in different skills and knowledge from those industries into eSports. And I think that's what makes it really developed. And another advice would be to really, you know, educate yourself, yourself connect with, for example, women in games, which is a great resource for, you know, support. And then also, for example, there are a lot of organizations now who are really running women empowerment initiatives in gaming and eSports. So for example, for Galaxy Racer North America, we have for Galaxy. Yeah, and in this ecosystem, we want to create a really sustainable ecosystem wherein, you know, we give them the opportunities, the funding for these athletes and also behind the screen. So for example, our camera men, our staff, we're really providing opportunities for women who want to break into the state. Could you, sorry to interrupt, but Chantel, could you describe in just a little bit more detail quickly as we're running down the clock here? But could you describe about what Galaxy Racer is doing in the U.S.? Because I thought that was a really interesting approach to what they were doing. Yeah, so Galaxy Racer is very active in different regions of the world. So we have Nina, Sati, Deira in Europe. For North America, our main, our day-to-day is really delivering for her galaxy. So it is our main IP wherein we really have to create like an ecosystem for women wherein those who are aspiring to be eSports athletes or those who want to try being in an official tournament for eSports, we are giving those opportunities. And yeah, for us, it's our day-to-day. Every day I'm looking for partners who want to connect with us. It's just to really send a message across and bring awareness to what women are facing in the games industry. And we just want opportunities for everyone. Which is really interesting because we're talking about culture and a lot of times we think of what's the culture in Africa? What's the culture in Malaysia? What's the culture in the US? And so that's, it's really an interesting thing that an interesting approach, I think that Galaxy Racer is taking in joining them and coming to the North American market. One quick question I wanted to go back to each of you and maybe with you, are there any advantages to being a woman in the industry? Yes, I mean, yes, I thought along in that because first is I try as much as possible. I think thinking about it in that way, man, woman in the industry, I think that's limited. So for me, I try not to like say it, but there is a lot of advantage because one, it's not common. So people pay attention to you, which means extra work because when you're coming, you have to come correct. Right? And don't expect to see that a table will get attention because you're a woman. So it's extra work, but again, it's an advantage to really, really show that, look, women can make a difference. I am a woman and I want to make a difference. So I think that advantage, it's precious, but again, you really just need to make the best out of it. You know, one of my favorite things from politics here in the US was, I think Shirley Chisholm, she said, if they don't invite you to the table, bring a folding chair. And that was just like, okay. Shantel, in the last few seconds, any advantages to being a woman and you're part of the world? An advantage would be, as Eniola said, we're not the main players in the industry. And for example, for her galaxy, there's been a lot of like movement wherein companies would like to be something for the DFI initiatives. So that's an advantage for me because there are brands who want to work with you for women in eSports. And I think personally an advantage would be, women are just more warm when you're meeting them for the first time. And I think I've been using that tactic when I'm meeting new brands. And I like it because, there's the genuine authentic connection, there's empathy for their brand and for yourself. That's great. We are running out of time here. I just, this has been a great conversation. I just keep going on and on and on. And I really appreciate both of you. People can see in the notes, in the video, where to go find out more information about what each of you is doing because you guys are both role models to women out there. So thanks again. This is the wide world of eSports. I'm sitting in for Katherine Newart. My name's Tom Leonard. I'm the host of the Gamers Change Lives podcast. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, and LinkedIn, and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.