 Show me the data. DevConf is an engineering conference. This crowd is a bunch of engineers. And Serena and I have been engineers all our lives. We believe in the value of data. So as we started thinking about diversity, we naturally gravitated towards, well, let's see what studies are available. Let's see what the data tells us. Turns out that it's really hard to find data on diversity in open source communities in particular. A lot easier to find data about diversity in businesses because they have reporting requirements. But we've been examining lots and lots of data. So why would anybody care that a community is diverse? Well, you guys are all self-selected, right? I'm assuming good intent, and I'm assuming that you're here because you care about diversity and you're not here to troll us. Anybody here to troll us raise your hand. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know there's always one, yeah. But there are lots of studies, but they tend to be management studies that show the business value of diversity. There are studies that look at corporate boards and corporate profits that then correlate that to the diversity of the board, but there's not so much about engineering communities. So some of the engineering community stuff is work that we are assuming extrapolates from those corporate studies. But we know that there is value to diversity because we see it all around us. So why does it matter if an open source community is made of people that look alike or have similar life experiences? Like, look around, we have the benefits of the limited diversity that we have in the room and in the communities that we have today. And the experiences that are different with each person helps to gain variety within the group. So we can learn more about each other this week when we're at this conference. You can even go, I know last year when I was here, there was a candy swap at one of the tables in the community room. And with a diverse group, you can likely find a lot of differences as well as a lot of similarities between you. So hone in on the similarities that you have with people that you are different from because that can help create a connection and then create trust on that. And diversity, when you find it, is a lot more fun. So here's the reason that businesses care. Diversity creates change, which is the engine for innovation. So if you, probably a lot of you here are Red Hatters. And we always talk internally about open source communities and innovation. It's a powerful driver, right? Well, diversity creates challenges. A community that's diverse has a little more friction in it. And diversity shakes things up a little bit and that's not a bad thing. Ideas that are challenged get to prove their worth. And if everybody in the room agrees that something is a good idea, that probably says you don't have enough diversity in the room, right? Because nobody raised the question. So right there, we see value in bringing different experiences into the conversation. It's hard to fix a problem that, it's hard to fix a problem if you don't have multiple perspectives on that problem, right? And as a code base gets out into the world and encounters users and encounters the need to interface with other code bases, the original developers experience issues, problems, difficulties that they didn't anticipate. It helps to have multiple perspectives on what those problems are because that gives you better insights into how to fix them. If you knew about the problem to begin with, right? You would have coded around it to start. But clearly you weren't thinking about that problem. So if you have multiple perspectives, you can even think of that as a specific skill set that you want to have on a team. We want to hire that as, well you want a team to have multiple ways of looking at things. And I'm just gonna add on to that a little bit as you talked about the development perspective and I'd like to talk about the design perspective as well. We often use PRs to document our designs. And sometimes when people put up a PR with the design they get a little frustrated if there's a lot of questions around it. But oftentimes especially with design there's not necessarily like the right answer. So having a bunch of questions around a specific design is just as important as, documenting questions around a technology or a PR or how you're accomplishing a task because we want to be able to make sure with the user experience that we're addressing a multitude or a range of different types of people. So open source means innovation. It's about collaboration and inclusion. Everyone has a platform and everyone is empowered. So we have rules here. Sometimes we have rules. It's about being transparent. It's about allowing everybody to provide input. And let's say again, like everyone should be able to provide input. That means all of us as community members need to make sure that people feel safe enough that they can provide their input and that we listen. So as an example, if you have an intern on your team who's just joined and is 18 years old, listen to them. We can often learn, well we always learn from them as much as we can from anybody else. And in my case, I happen to be one of the only women in the distinguished engineer community at Red Hat. So it's one woman out of 56. And it's great that the people also listen to me, right? So everybody needs to be able to be involved and make an impact. Think about brainstorming that can occur with a diverse team. If you have a room with two or three people that think alike, you can brainstorm and you can come up with a solution, but it would likely be much better if you have a diverse room of people with different roles, with different towns, from different backgrounds, and get a lot more ideas out there. So collaboration helps foster creativity, which results in innovation. What do they say? The way to find the best ideas is to start with a lot of ideas. So how diverse are open source communities anyway? Clearly, different communities have different levels of participation from other groups. It turns out that it's really hard to get this data, but we've found several studies that can give us some of the information. So GitHub has done studies. They've got two or three studies that they've done annually. Also, there are some numbers out on Stack Overflow. And so Stack Overflow's annual developer survey, it turns out, looks at a lot of the information around participation. We've specifically started with gender differences because it's one of the easiest to measure, right? We went looking for studies that could give us the numbers. And here's one of the ones that we found. So this is from the Linux Foundation's open source leadership summit. So it's circa 2017. According to that study, 11.6% of the GSOC participants, yeah, 2018 participants were women. 10.4% of OpenStack contributors are women. 9.9% of Linux's kernel contributors are women. I find that one, by the way, difficult to believe. If you, okay, right? If you poke a little closer at that one, you'll see that 6.8% of the actual code submissions are from women. And so there's clearly a difference here, right? I mean, we can measure the number of identities, but can we really, we can measure the number of pull requests, but how do we map some of this stuff, right? If 9.9% are women, and only 6.8% of the contributions are from them, there's something in the middle here, right? One of these things is not like the other one. Let's see. And where's Perry? Yeah, I'm sorry, Perry. I'm gonna out us. I hate to say it. Only 3% of the Red Hat kernel population is female. And we try really hard to hire women. So I know, right, that in the wider world, it's also really tough. Okay. So imagine a world where everyone in the room looks exactly the same or have the same background, like everybody at this table. This would be fine if the people at this table were developing something for users that look like that, and the sales guys look like that as well, but we know that that's not the case, right? So we're representing a number of different roles here. We need to make sure that we have diversity by role, by gender, by geographic, as Alon mentioned, and which is something that we didn't even pick up on with all of our research is English as a secondary language, which when you started saying it, it was like put a bell and we looked at each other. We take that one for granted. Yes. Yeah. Which is sad. And we also have to make the point that we are focusing on women, but that's because that's where we are. Okay, we have a bias. We do have a bias there. So again, you had some really good points in your conversation there. So I think the main point here is that it's not, it's not also all about writing code, right? You're writing code for users. So open source communities initially were also all comprised of just developers. And they were 100% focused on what they were doing, what they were writing, what they wanted to focus on. But was there a roadmap where their use cases, was there a design where their personas, did they consider any of that? Did they think about how the users were gonna use the product? Did they think about how they were gonna learn about the product? Gotta go to the next slide. So complimentary skills are an asset, right? You look at this right now and let's take it a step further. Here's a small example of development without design. So somebody created this as their initial webpage. Anybody, can you make sense of that? I mean, it's pretty hard to read. If you knew to put the cursor up at the top right-hand corner of the page, what you'd actually see was this. So if you had a designer along with that developer, you could've probably figure that one out beforehand and save some time, right? So before 2013, open source was, UIs were just doing enough. But starting in 2014, they started to invest more in user experience. This is from a number of reasons. Our competition, we're actually now competing with a lot of the big companies that are investing a lot of money in UX, right? So a few years later, we're now seeing a lot more investment in the practice of UX. Again, we can take Red Hat, for example. I joined the company in 2014 and we had a UX team of 18 people. We're now at about 106, which is amazing. So think about how things could've changed in open source if the community was more diverse by role at the beginning. And think about the diversity of users that you're trying to go after and all those different experiences. So do communities reflect corporations? Well, I'm really sad to say this. It's really kind of embarrassing, but the data that we found strongly suggests that corporations have made a lot more progress than communities have in attracting women into technical roles. The studies that we found show that corporations now are more diverse than communities are. Which, if you look at some of our numbers, I mean, it kind of makes sense. On the internet, nobody knows. You're a cat. I had to get a cat picture in. Anybody who knows me. So, as we said, it's really hard to get data on open source participation. You have to rely on guesses based upon gendered names. And there are open source tools that you can use to try to go and examine profiles and try to determine gender based upon profile. And some studies have done that. A lot of it is self-reported, though. So GitHub did a huge study. They had like 5,500 responses. And of all of those responses, 95% was white male. Which says that people of color and females were 5% of the folks on GitHub. Oops. I'm just trying to. Are we? I think we're up. Sorry. Hang on a sec. Okay, so I'm lost. But we're moving on. Professional computer programmers. The numbers according to the government, the US government, the Bureau of Labor Statistics show that 22.6% of professional computer programmers are female. And that actually maps pretty well to some of the corporate numbers that we've seen published. So Wired published this table, which shows over time how participation of women in technical roles has advanced in companies like Apple and Google and Microsoft and Facebook. So they've grown the role of women in technical jobs from 14, 15, 17% in 2014 to 2019 numbers anywhere from 20 to 23%. Intel has similar numbers by the way. Intel's participation is like 20, 21% at this point. A lot of the numbers that you find are a little bit misleading because when companies report their numbers, oftentimes they're reporting women overall. And so there are lots of women in roles like finance and human resources, right? And that can kinda inflate the numbers. So if you look at overall numbers for any of these corporations, they're gonna be higher. But technical roles, which is what I personally care about, right, sorry. The numbers are significantly lower. If you then compare this with the numbers from open source, right? The GitHub numbers that I just quoted, you see there's a real big difference. It's changing a little bit. So we found a study that looked at participation in hacker spaces. And there it, especially that tends to be a younger demographic. And there the rate was like maybe 20% of the participants are female. So we think that this might be shifting over time. I just wanted to call one thing out here too. It's interesting that Microsoft and Apple are considered, you know, more old school and more founded in the 70s. But their numbers are still so high. So I thought that was a good feeling, I think, in the corporate area. But now let's go back over here. Yes. So years of experience by gender. This slide actually gives me hope. These numbers look at women in technical roles and the years of their ages, right? I'm sorry, not their ages. They're years of experience. What this slide is showing is that for zero to nine years of experience in technical positions, 66.2% of women fall into that category. 52.9% of non-binary, genderqueer, non-conforming, all self-identified, right? Of people in technical roles have less than nine years of experience. And 50.1% of men in those roles have less than nine years of experience. But what this slide I'm hoping says is that the pipeline is expanding. It's a different demographic as you get younger. So this gives me hope that more women are coming into the field. We'll see if that's actually true. Oh, another interesting study that we found talked about the overall development roles. This I think this was from what Stack Overflow from the developer study. They looked at what roles women tended to move into, right? So what do you think the most popular technical roles are with women? Designer. That's one of them. Testing, yes. That was a big one, yep. Yeah, no, not so much, yeah. See that one? Yeah, yeah, documentation. Documentation was one. Yep. What was that one? What the project made? Oh, project made? That one was like right on the border. So that was like 50.50. Yeah, support is another one. No, SRE tends, that skews mail, which was interesting. Yeah, yeah, let's hope. Another one was data scientist, right? Women are coming into data science. And then, let's see, what else? What else did we have? I missed one. I missed an interesting one. The difference between, yeah, anyway, anyway. There's one that I missed, but that was, oh, wait a second, front end development, that was the other one. Yeah, web developers, yeah. So that was really interesting. But the backend, the database, the DBAs, the database, that skews mail. And I'm also just gonna call out to UX again at Red Hat. So Red Hat, we have about a 50.50 breakup in our UX department, which is interesting. And it was aligned with this, because we have front end development and we have design in there, as well as research. But it's interesting that we kind of align with those numbers there, so. Yeah, so we're reinforcing stereotypes everywhere. Yeah. So this goes back to the numbers that Denise had talked about with the GitHub survey. So it was actually an open source, the survey was included open source users and developers. But what these numbers actually are about is the demographics of those people who answered the questions, right? So on those respondents. So the 95% of the people who took the survey were male. 3% were female and one was the non-binary. So why are open source communities predominantly male? Can we figure this one out? Like it would be nice to understand. Or maybe it was the survey just missed a lot of these other roles that we talked about, like designers and front end developers. Maybe it just did go to some of those communities that were more focused on the back end. We don't really know. Yeah, except that we know that communities are different, right? So some like the GNOME community have been great at doing outreach. And so for years, they've been putting focus on things, projects like outreach, right? So we see more folks from those communities. So here's where we get to talk about cultural stereotypes. Can you spot the genius? Well, I bet there's one here that you can probably name and maybe two, right? So curiosity, intelligence, perseverance, productivity and a big chunk of good luck to get the visibility are characteristics that are associated with genius. It may not look exactly like what our knee jerk reaction says it looks like. Real talent has never been in huge supply. And it can be easily to overlook talent genius when it doesn't fit into your mental mindset, your first impression of what it should look like. So Ada Lovelace, Alice Bell, tragic story there. Charles Turner, Jocelyn Bell-Bernel, Srinni Ramanujan, some people have never heard of these amazing people. And yet probably everybody's heard of. So true confession, I have biases. Probably every one of you does as well. There's a fascinating link through the Harvard Business Review that lets you go and take a test of your biases. And I forgot to put the link in here. I'm sorry, but I'll share it later. But when you go and take these tests, you really discover that, yeah, I guess I'm like everybody else, right? Yeah, I can't get, it's hard to get beyond my biases. It's a loaded term, but we can't not have biases, right? Because none of us have unlimited compute power. And a bias is the brain's attempt at efficiency. We can't, or at least it's really hard to recompute everything all the time. And so we set up these mental shortcuts for ourselves. It's perfectly normal, it's perfectly natural, but sometimes you have to just step back and say, hmm, am I looking at all the data? Have I been sufficiently proactive? Have I gotten out of my mental model? Have I oversimplified a little bit? And if I just step back and start thinking a little bit wider, can I maybe see the potential in this person? The potential rather than perhaps a past history of accomplishments, potential that might make them a really distinguished and interesting member of our team to fill a role that we didn't even know we needed, right? Steph, thank you for that one. So just try to think a little bit more, a little bit wider when you meet somebody and toss your biases, at least briefly, before you slot them immediately. When we have biases about age, about gender, about color, about race, about ethnicity, all this stuff, right, try to dump them and take the time to recompute. So what are corporations that do and that we're not? So, okay, Cindy Lauper said it best. Money changes everything. Corporations have thrown a lot of money at recruiting to find diversity candidates. And wouldn't it be nice to have a huge budget to go and attract females and attract others who might be different into the field? We do a lot of grassroots efforts, right? And there's a lot invested in grassroots efforts, but boy, it would be great to have focus right from the top with a huge budget to go along with it. But corporations also have legal requirements that they have to think about and that motivate their hiring. And in recent years, a really good development has been that they have to report their diversity numbers publicly. So for instance, if you go to Red Hat's website, you can see our numbers for diversity and technical roles. And I'm embarrassed to say, unlike some of our competition, 14%, right? But we are on a mission to do better. And we're kind of in that middle ground because we recruit a lot out of open source communities. We're motivated to help make open source communities more diverse, because then everybody gets better. So what can communities do? So be more inviting. Successful projects have an on-ramp, right? So here's some things that you can do in your community project or conference to be more inviting. And Alon, actually, his presentation before us has, was much more detailed on some of the things that we're gonna be talking about, code of conduct, that type of thing. But if you have a website, show interesting demographics on your site. Here we have a picture of the Grace Hopper celebration where you see a number of women that do look different. Here's another one, which is the, what is it, the GitHub Octogados community. There's all kinds of fun things you can do within your community to have it look more inviting and look like you wanna attract different types of people with different backgrounds, right? So be patient. When people are coming in, be happy to guide them into new open source communities. Provide a list of open issues that are welcome to be taken by people who are new and be really patient when they put up their PRs, right? Because the worst thing you can do is put up a PR and say, oh, this is all wrong, right? Yeah, that's the stupidest thing I ever heard. So when you create these communities and you wanna be more inviting, make sure that you invite your friends too. And it can be a really fun effort. Other things that you can do to increase gender diversity, you can consider speaking at a women's conference or go to the hackathon and be a judge. You can attend a Grace Hopper conference and even at those things, you can also recruit there. I know that we do that, right, at Red Hat. To address age diversity, there's different things you can do like partner with educators at universities. You can look into mentoring opportunities with high schools that are nearby and heck, you can start at home, right? If you have children, start sharing what you do about work with them. Let them know that you can learn from them just as much as they can learn from you. I did that. And I have got a daughter who works at Red Hat as an interaction designer. I have a son who's a cloud architect. So it kinda worked for me, so like, it's fun. Nothing better than when they're all grown up, you come home and talk about work. It's actually pretty fun. Kind of sad, but fun. But anyways, you can also bring- Christmas dinner table must be funnier. Interesting, my parents are like, what? But also, you know, like, there's the bring your children to work day, right? I think there's a national day now. I think it's April 23rd this year, 2020. All across the world, you should be able to bring your kids to school. I mean, bring your kids to work so that they learn more. Let them learn about what you're doing. And also, you know, I was talking about children, but specifically for girls. Let them know that it's okay to be smart. And it's okay to like math and science. Like, getting kids at an early age to understand that, and getting the sons to understand that it says okay too for a sister. But it's really important. And I think people are doing that much more now than they did when we were younger, right? When I was a computer science major, and I think I was one of two girls who graduated in my grade. Hopefully it's a lot better than that now. And different cultures have different stereotypes, right? Or different ideas about what jobs are suitable for women. So if you look in some geographies, computer science, the classes actually are skewed. Female, I was amazed. So there is hope. It's just that in Western Europe, in the United States, in these cultures, it's over time the stereotype has become that this is not a good job for women. We can do better though. We can change that stereotype. So, get to get, steal good ideas from each other, right? So Fedora started out doing a candy swap. People from different backgrounds bring in candies from their culture and explain it. And everybody gets to try something different. Now I see we're doing it over here, right? There's a candy swap going on just on the other side of the aisle over here. Which is great, you guys should check that out because it looked like there was some really good stuff. But that's just one idea, right? You can do, this is a photo from here last year. Steal the good ideas that you see at other conferences and promote them. So, D&I communities are terrific support group mechanisms, right? But we should also consider, well, the primary goal is to be supportive. We don't wanna be looked at as not being, like not letting other people come in and see what we're doing, right? So allow the outsiders to get a glimpse of what it's like to be inside. Open up the doors and let people see that. People who have never been in that situation probably don't know what it feels like. So, like the whole thing with bias is sometimes it's just an inherent bias. They don't understand what it's like to be in your situation. So sometimes it's completely really unintentional, right? But if you let them join in, that will empower others to understand what it's really like. And as this is saying, knowledge is power. So the more we educate, the more hopefully we can help change. So, the future will be different. You've already seen my hopeful slide, the changing numbers on the age demographic from Stack Overflow. Can you spot the genius in this slide? Yeah, me either. But the genius is in there somewhere. So first, I want you to meet the Space Ants. The Space Ants are a Lego League team. They are from a small township in South Africa. 2019, they went to the Worldwide Championships in Lebanon and won. Some of these kids had never been on a plane before, right? Some of these kids had never left the country, never left the township. What I love about this, what I truly love about this are the Crazy Divas. The Crazy Divas are from a different township in South Africa. And in 2012, they were one of the first to get to a Lego League championship in Malaysia. And they didn't win, but they came back and shared their experience. And when they got home, they started mentoring some of the other teams. And now look, 2019, South Africa, a South African team is winning. It shows you the value of what you do when you contribute. There's lots of projects going on. So like Colab is a project that Red Hat sponsors, right? Where we bring kids in and help them write games. There's another project called the Rose Project. There are STEM outreach projects everywhere. And it's the thing that's gonna change the demographic over time, because people are going to become convinced that it is possible for me to do this thing. I'm old enough that when I first got into computer science, nobody told us we couldn't do it, right? It was still a brand new field. And nobody said you can't, because there weren't enough people writing code. There was no stereotype yet. And it's like, well, okay, sure. I guess I can do that. And then suddenly there weren't any women anymore. And now we're starting to see women come back. And it really is exciting for me. I'm really hopeful that we can get another generation back here. An open source is a thing that's gonna get them in. Okay, so how can you make a difference? As we just saw the numbers saying, open source, the numbers in open source are less diverse than the numbers that are in corporations. So what are we doing wrong? And how can you make a difference? Kind of seems like an oxymoron, because open source is supposed to be open and inclusive. So like, what's the problem? So even though maintainers set the example, anyone can help change the culture, right? So call out bad behavior. And in fact, everyone can help change the culture. Yes. Find ways to call out bad behavior. I don't know if anybody in this room has any suggestions. It can be in a meeting. It could be a comments on a PR. Sometimes you can take somebody aside and talk to them other times. Maybe it's better to gently say something in the room. Who knows? But being able to help change. If you see bad behavior, don't let it go, right? So I'm still in Rain's favorite phrase, right? We don't do that here. We don't do that here. What a powerful statement. Because it establishes a community norm. And people are social, right? We're social creatures. We follow the pack. And we don't do that here, says a lot about the way that a community operates. Sometimes it's hard to stand up for somebody else. Although it can actually be easier to stand up for somebody else than to stand up for yourself. So when you see it, defend it. And it also say the maintainer is very impactful in order to say that. So that if you are the maintainer, be even more conscious about it. And it's also much easier for a woman to stand up for a woman or other examples of. But if you're standing up for somebody who's not the same minority as you are, it makes a bigger difference, right? Think of just a question. A question from a maintainer in our audience. Well, I think it's really interesting to be a private discussion on this more effective. However, that takes away the impression of getting to the new people that almost are correct. Yeah. So because from a certain perspective, it's important to imprint upon their brains at that moment. We don't do that here. Right. And they don't have the golden experience in hiring a person, but at the same time, you may not give the impression of the new people that we fight to be a better person. I agree with you. It's a quandary, right? Because your goal is to change the behavior, and yet your goal is also to demonstrate that you're changing the behavior. And so, yeah, it's going to be an in-the-moment call. And it's also a big responsibility when you're one of those people. Gently. I really like this example as well, because it's like you're not really putting somebody on the spot and reacting in a negative way back to them. You're just saying, hey, that ain't right, right? Yeah, not our community. OK, so Vincent was the next one. Yeah. Yeah. Some people like it too much, and that's fine. Yeah. I do. I do. Yeah. I tend to, it moves it over, like, we don't do that here, but we're still moving together. Moving forward together, so that's humor. And this humor is not artful. It is absolutely artful. Yeah. It's not how that was done. I don't own that. Yeah, of course. Well, I assume good intent, right? Yeah, we need a shot of stuff. It doesn't matter. Yeah. I think stuff is rocking the look. Yeah, sir. You had a question. So I'm sorry, and I think the good thing about that is, because it's a merge patch, it's sort of set as a rule. So the programmers get quite strict about code form, acting, and compilations first. So it's like part of your style guide. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting way I like that. What community is that? Oh, it's like Key Lime. Oh, OK, Key Lime. Good. So see, look. Key Lime, a welcoming community. Bring your friends. Mm-hmm. Having a mentor or sponsor definitely helps, right? It helps that person be able to gain more self-confidence in that. How do people in the Key Lime community request help? Is there a means they can just? So as soon as somebody shows interest in the first issue. So you'll reach out. You're a busy man. That's awesome. Scaling. Well, by that time, you'll have mentored enough people into the community that they'll pass it along, right? Gentlemen in the back, yes. Please. So we are able to do this so dependent on the people we have in our community. So for Dora, for example, we focus a lot on women because a lot of times women are the ones who are in our team. We get to do things like the candy swaps. We do speak a native language hour at our next group. Yeah, I love that idea. Yeah. These are things that we are enabled by the people who show up willing to help us with these ideas. And so if you're looking for a way to make a difference in your open source community, see if there is a group that is trying to think about these things or address these things. Hang out in their IRC or chat group, wherever they're hanging, wherever they're mailing lists or discussions are happening. And your voice, I really think that so many of these communities are volunteer-oriented. Who shows up is a huge determining factor for. It's like, Dora, we don't want to reach out to a group that we don't have personal experience with because we don't want to misrepresent that group in some way. It helps to have someone who's guiding us in the right direction. People look out in your own communities and if they don't have one, maybe start one. That's great. Yeah. I think you were next. Mary, right? No, Kira. Kira. Yell. But it's not enough. So it's great that you just said that because that kind of almost could be an answer to some of the numbers that we found, where the number of women in the community was larger than the number that was contributed because they don't feel safe or confident enough. And I'm sure that's also with other minority groupings, for sure. Well, Nels made a great point yesterday about code reviews. Can you repeat that? That really made an impression on me. Yeah. And I like that. It's like I conform to this style. Yeah. Well, it was do the review. And did they write it the way that I would have written it? Well, maybe not. But does it get the correct result? Yes. So gee, there you go. And also on that as well, just quickly, we found that article last night when we were like re-looking at some of the facts and numbers. This is about 1 o'clock in the morning. Yeah. And one of the things that we did find in one of the articles was that oftentimes the number of comments on a PR is substantially more if it was submitted by a woman than by a male. Now, of course, this was diversity in women that they were investigating. Like they were looking at, yeah. But still, I mean, I don't know that we know that for sure. But it was in an article that we did read, so. Neil, I think you were next. Sure. That's my job this year. Yes. Hugh. And this plays into diversity and quote, meritocracy, whatever the hell that is. There are, because there are, in engineering, just as in writing, there are many ways to get a point across or solve a problem. And from a maintainer standpoint, sure, you have to maintain a style, and you have to make sure things function. But it also has to be really important to let people have their own voice. At least something that we can start the conversation about, right? Because let's say, is it correct? Does it get the result that we needed? Yeah. Yeah, Larry. Yeah, I just wanted to make an observation. You and I go back a little longer. We're old, Larry. Come on. We're old. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hey, we're a protected class. Yes. Yeah. It was the third to 40% years. Those are the days I remember. Yeah. But then, last two years ago, I taught in this past semester I was teaching in the, there's a high dropout in this class. Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Swimming back whatever operating system. Seriously? Yeah. Oh, right. So something is changing. The historical perspective on this is that originally, software development was not considered a cool work. Yeah. Back in the back in two days. We don't go back that far. Not that far. Yeah? Great software. And the men were great. That changed over time. And then what happened was the home computer started to favor males because males would sit at home and play with the home computer and have an authentic advantage when you got into the actual classroom environment and moving on to the other. And I think... We found a statistic on that, by the way. They were looking at what age were you when you wrote your first line of code and that age was significantly older for women than for men. Exactly. Yeah. And I think that Raspberry Pis give us a great opportunity now, right? Put your hands on the hardware again. Yeah. Yeah. It's like so much easier and more fun to be directly involved and to see the immediate results of what you do. Yes. Katja. Oh, sorry. Well. What was the point of the statistic you put up earlier about open source being very, very shortly male-dominated? I think it was 3% or something for all those candidates. Yeah. According to that survey, right? So what is the assumption that that is vaguely accurate to somebody? To a very equal war out of what I see in industry. Now, I appreciate your point is regarding different countries and different branches. I mean, the gender balance teams that I've worked with in India and the Czech Republic and Poland are vastly better than America and the UK. You know, on the order of 50, 50, 60, 40 at worst. Whereas in the UK and America you're talking maybe about being a candidate out of 25. Mm-hmm. But that aside, why is the open source community given the reduced barriers to entry or perceived reduced barriers to entry so far from where it should be? So I don't think just investment alone explains that. Yeah. Do we have more data or is that something that's not going to be looked into enough yet? I think it's scary to put your code out in public because you put yourself out in public and you open yourself up for criticism. And if you're not part of a community where you trust that they are going to not stomp all over you when you do that you're probably not going to put your code out in public and therefore you're not going to participate as much. That's my personal theory and we are out of time, but can I just say thank you all for a fabulous discussion.