 I think, Sadhguru, you've already started with a beautiful poem I got in the middle of it. So, let me read it to you again, fool. Yes, you have already set the mood. It is about my little finger, not a big subject. My little finger it's called, Enough of this false poetry, I break my pen to see that none of it ever spills upon paper. But the green leaf sings its green poems and the brown one about to lose its perch upon the tree, murmurs its own. The bird upon the tree sets music to its own kind. The insects are ardent singers of their own bordery and even the toads echo their grave verse. My heart has a mind of its own and sings away against my resolve. Now can my little finger be left behind? Please, Prasoon. Sadhguru, first of all, I think from the bottom of my heart I think this interaction is something which accepted and thank you for that because it means a lot at these times when people are actually facing a lot of questions and they are various people, various sections of our society facing different kinds of questions. Well, there are few who are in the lockdown and introspecting and talking about life questions, the few who are struggling on the street and have very different questions. So I think all of us are going through, you know, various questions in our life. So this is a time where we need to hear from you and also I thought I'll share some poetry and some of the work I have been doing. We have some music to start with. We thought the sounds of Isha will set the mood for the evening. Yes, they will. They were getting depressed that we are starting off without them. First of all, thank you, sounds of Isha for this beautiful song. Before we start the evening, if you agree, I have finished a poem yesterday which I want to give to the musicians there and by towards the end of our discussion, if they can try, I am not forcing them. If they want to try till the very end of our discussion. Are we talking for three days Prasoon? No, no, we are talking about whatever time. I know they are magical. I have heard them before. So I will, Sadhguru, a very fresh piece which delegating to today's evening, I am reciting that and handing it over to the musicians there and we see towards the end of the program we can hear something from them. This is a little small piece, a few verses and we are just talking about what is happening to us today. Kuch kahanachah rahi hai hawaa, kuch sanata bhi bol rahe. Kuch satch gagan se utra hai jo bandh daar hai, kol rahe. Should I say, wow, wow, wow? Kahanachah rahi hai hawaa, kuch sanata bhi bol rahe. Kuch satch gagan se utra hai jo bandh daar hai, kol rahe. Buno, ek jivan pheer se buno, suno. Kuch deer, kuch deer, thaher kar suno. Apni gehraai me kudo, apni gehraai me kudo, satche sikhke mil jaayenge apni lehron se baat karo, sab uttar bhi mil jaayenge. Apni gehraai me kudo, satche sikhke mil jaayenge, apni lehron se baat karo, sab uttar bhi mil jaayenge. Chuno, chuno, hud apna rasta chuno. Suno, kuch deer, thaher kar suno. Thi kap se maan srishti saari. Thi kap se maan srishti saari, mitti ki gand ko kahene do. Ab mukt karo tum swar saare, har rukhe chand ko bahene do. Suno, kuch deer, thaher kar suno. Suno, kuch deer, thaher kar suno. So, this I am reading it for the first time, I have finished it last evening and I am getting to know you today and I hope you hear something from Sons of Vishya. We'll have to keep on talking till they get it ready, Prasoon. Yes, we will. I have huge… I have more confidence than seems Sadhguru and you. But they are wonderful. Sadhguru, to set the today's mood and you started the poem already. What I have been noticing, a lot of people have been doing a lot of work in our fraternity also, a lot of artists have been coming out and I have been speaking to my fellow musicians and poets and other artists also and there are two kinds of creative work which is emerging out of this, these times. One is born out of tension which I have always considered an integral part of creativity. It's like, you know, without tension even a sitar does not give you the right sound. It has to have the tension, the right tension in the wires to be able to give you the music. If it is loose, it doesn't give you that sound. So, that one work is coming out of tension and which has got anxiety, which has got tension built in. And another kind of work which has been coming out is kind of a self-expression, self-exploration kind of work which is coming out. So, Sadhguru, you have been writing poetry, you have been doing paintings, to those paintings I will come a little later. But what is your inspiration, Sadhguru, when you are writing, you are creating what kind of mindset you have when you are, you know, exploring thoughts? Oh! Now I'm asking, Sadhguru, not as a spiritual leader, I'm asking, Sadhguru, as a poet and artist right now. I don't definitely come out of tension nor is it a self-expression of any kind. This will, maybe what I say will be little, what to say, off-key or maybe even sounds little stupid or maybe if you look at it from another side, it may look a bit arrogant probably. But the reality for me is whether, no you said not as a spiritual leader but this, but whether it is, you know, whatever spiritual work we're doing or poetry or this artwork, don't tell anybody I'm just pretending to be one. Suddenly I decided I will paint something. I've painted many things in my mind, but never painted with my hand. So I just started doing something because there was time and there was paint. So this may sound a little strange or people may even think I'm trying to dodge the question but I am not. Let me try to find some kind of expression to this. When it comes to poetry, I am like, it's a, you know, like when I write it, I don't even read it the second time and fix a few words or nothing. I just write it and that's it. I will just send it to the office, they will print it and then send it back just to check if typos are there. That's about it. I don't think and I don't write, I don't think of a particular concept, nothing. In some way, it's like I drip poetry a bit. That same thing may be in some form becoming some kind of a painting which which I don't think it's much of a painting, but people are saying it's good. People are buying it for a very good price. That's their generosity, not my artwork. So whether it, whether I'm speaking or writing, painting or doing many other things or I will put all these under the same category when I drive, when I ride, when I teach, when I write or paint or whatever. For me, it's just about the same thing. Something of me just finds expression is not the word because if you want to express, you must have some thought or some idea or some philosophy or ideology. It's like I drip these things. It's more of a drip than an expression. Well, sometimes if the situation, not me, I'm always willing. If the situation is willing, I will become a torrent, otherwise I will drip. Yeah, Sadhguru, for you, what I am, I will, you know, of course you are humble, so you will not say that, but people, I mean, if you are connected, you, I had written a number of times about being Zarya. Two Zarya, meh Zarya, uski Krapat Darya, Darya. The question… Please tell me in English, what is that Darya? So, sir, the question is that the thing is that you are not the electricity, you are the wire and the electricity passes through you and you become by accident an artist. That's how I have expressed a number of times. I felt also that where did the thought come from? Sometimes you just feel that you are lucky that the thought happened to you. And so, Sadhguru, one hand, it is about being a medium or being expressing a medium. But where does then the craft come? Is creativity in bond? We often hear that everybody is creative. What is your, Sadhguru, take on that? Or is everybody creative to begin with? But then we see some people create better, some people create well, some people pursue that. Is creativity in bond or is inculcated or is nurtured? I feel what we are looking at as creativity, whether it is poetry or painting or various other kinds, whether acting or whatever it is, is essentially coming from a keenness of attention. Certain people are very attentive to sounds and words and meanings, so they, you know, bounce back certain things. Certain people are very attentive to forms, colors, they will find expression in a different way. Certain people are very attentive to sounds, they may become, you know, may be able to produce music very effortlessly, able to create those things. It is a question of attention, how keen and profound is your attention that reflects in you in some way. So, a sense of what I've been trying to do, I'm using the word trying to do intentionally because I'm still trying to do is to get millions of people to become really attentive. Attention without intention, simply intense attention, without any intention, not towards anything, simply attentive. If this one thing people do, every human being will be able to be very multidimensional, creativity is very much possible. It's not that they have to practice, they have to do this or that. What is lacking in human being is attention. So, what is taking away human attention is simply their own cerebral activity. People do not know how to handle their memory and their attention separately. Their memory always floods into their attention and clouds it all the time. This memory, this clouding of the memory people may call as thought or emotion or whatever else they like to, but essentially it is the accumulated memory which interferes with one's attention. Otherwise it is very natural for you to be attentive. When you're awake, you're attentive. How else can you be? It is only because memory seeps into every aspect. So, this is the fundamental work that I've always been trying to do, that people should be able to separate their memory, their attention and their imagination. Imagination is not a problem because imagination is an extrapolation of one's memory in many different ways. So, this simple aspect of life that, see all the animals are very keen attention, but they don't have a vivid sense of memory as we have. They have some memory, but not the kind of memory that human beings have. It's very vivid. Like as we saw it, we can remember, we can replay that whole thing, we can experience things that have happened 10 years ago, 25 years ago. Now instead of using this memory as a phenomenal capability, most people use this to cause misery to themselves. What is it that human beings are suffering? Most of the time they're suffering what happened 10 years ago and they may be also suffering what may happen day after tomorrow. Right now these times are like that. People are already suffering what is yet to happen. It's Sadhguru very, very well said. Sadhguru, but you know, so you're saying memory and you talked about animals who are in a complete state of bliss out there. No, no, no, I did not say they're in bliss. No, they have their struggles, but they're not suffering their memory there, suffering life. Human beings are just suffering memory most of the time. So where does the creative idea, see the desire to self-express, where is it born? Is it born out of a certain restlessness inside or certain anxiety? Otherwise, why do I want to express myself? What is the need in it basically? And especially Sadhguru in these times, as you said, people are turbulent and I have seen a lot of expression coming out if you see social media and a lot of work has been coming out, all kinds of anxiety has been showing there. I'm not saying there's anxiety in work, but there are definitely great pieces of work also coming out. And one heard that in the times of somebody said that in the plague times Shakespeare went on to write a lot of stuff and a lot of art has been born. You know, if you look at Dadaism which was after the world war, they started saying that why should art be special and everything which is ordinary is art. So hence there is no art. So a lot of these questions happen when turbulent times comes. So is it important for creativity to have like a lake being shaken or the calmness has been shaken? Is it important for creative work or ideas or poetry or music an expression to come out of some sort of turbulence or anxiety? See, Prasoon, this needs to be explored in a certain way. The problem with most human beings is unless you put a pin into them, they will be half alive most of the time. Inertia is a choice that people have taken too. Because of inertia, nothing may be happening. So if you sit on a sofa, you become half alive. But suppose somebody put a pin there, the moment you sit there, you will become fully alive. So some people who are in that state whenever threat comes, a war comes or a pandemic comes or something else comes or in their own life, some tragedy comes, then they will become concerned about life. It's an unfortunate way to be. You must have this concern every moment of your life. Concern is because of involvement, not because of being instigated by some situation. When your concern comes out of instigation of some terrible thing that is happening, that is happening right now or it's impending right now, that is not the way. This is why I said attention. What is lacking is simple attention. We know life only to the extent we are attentive to it. What is the depth of your attention, only to that extent do you experience life. If your attention is very profound, your experience of life is very profound. When your experience of life is very profound, will you definitely express it? Not necessarily. It may find expression. It may find expression in just the simple work that you're doing. It may find expression in poetry, music, whatever, that depends on things. About Shakespeare creating King Lear when plague was on or, you know, Alexander Pushkin doing something else when he was in quarantine, well, that's because of time. As I'm painting, I've become a painter now, not because I want to express something, simply because there is time, otherwise I would be too busy to pick up a brush and do something. So essentially, if the richness of experience is happening within you, it is always possible to find expression in some way. What kind of expression you will find simply depends upon what… what sort of attention do you have. Is your attention simply there for everything? Is it like a simple light bulb if you turn it on, light bulb falls on everything? Is that kind of attention you have developed or you attend to only certain types? Some… as I said earlier, somebody is paying attention only to the sound. So when hard times come, unknowingly they may start creating music. Somebody is paying attention to only colors or forms, they may start becoming painting or somebody is paying attention to their thought process, they may start writing poetry or prose or whatever. So essentially, most people can pay attention only to a certain thing that they think is of interest. To be able to pay attention to anything without discriminating what is of interest, what is not of interest, what is worth your attention, what is not worth your attention, this is a wrong way to look at life because right now the virus, see what a… I mean right now I'm going to become extremely unpopular. Just see what a phenomenal thing it is, an invisible damn thing can make the whole humanity go down on its knees. So the source of creation did not pay any less attention to creating a virus than creating a human being, obviously. So brilliant it is. We have no clue what to do with it. All our science, all our medical science, brilliant people all over the place, we still don't know what the hell to do simply because virus is outsmarting us completely. So obviously the source of creation did not pay less attention to the virus than it paid to making you. When this is the nature of creation, who are you to decide what is worth paying attention, what is not worth paying attention? Yeah, so Sadhguru, do you think that you know virus has an equal claim on the life and on this earth and we are sulking as a humankind far too much or virus has an equal claim on the earth? Is it something which we should have, we should be looking at with equal right a virus enjoys to live here or is it, how does one see, is it an enemy or is it, how does, because humanity sees it as an enemy and what I'm hearing from you is that virus is coexistence with us and so has everyone, everything, every living being. So what should be a response to us as an enemy or as a co-inhabitor, what is it? See right now in this body, if you go by the number, that is the number of cells that you have and the number of bacteria and virus that you have within you, fifty-two percent of your body is actually microorganisms. I'm saying your parentage, your genetics and who you are doesn't exist. In majority if you go for election they win straight away even within this body. So anyway today we have chosen to be democratic, that means they definitely are more significant not just on the planet, in this body also. If you take a planetary situation they outnumber us a millions of times or trillions of times, there's no question about that. So our existence is impossible without them, but their existence goes on well without us. There's no question about this. They were here before us, they will be here after us. So we came now, do we have to coexist? There is simply no other way. If you do not have enough bacteria and virus in this body, you cannot exist. In fact, many of the scientific studies are now saying the development of mammalian life on this planet was seriously influenced by virus about hundred million years ago that mammals, which are primitive mammals, developed the ability to generate placenta in the body, which is the main source of being able to bear a full-formed child within the mother's womb. So virus has been playing significant role in every day of our life. Today we got a virus from another place, that is they were inhabiting other animals for a long time, we forever probably, but now it jumped to us. Why? Maybe there are not enough of those animals, so they're looking for new terrain. So even now, even with this virus, it is only killing those people. Virus has no intention to kill. Virus wants to live and the habitat is you, but it lives with such vigor, we don't have enough vigor to withstand that. So even now, it is killing only those vulnerable sections of population largely, because wherever immune system is not good enough, it's going down. As a generation of people in modern life, the way we are today, living in cities, living in always on paved surfaces, not being connected to the earth, our immune system, if you look at people who lived here 200 years ago, who walk… who till the land, who were constantly in contact with the soil, to those people and our immune system, I would say safely we are fifty percent less than what they were in terms of immunity. You will see this, right now, all these migrants, these millions of people have gone from Mumbai, Delhi and everywhere, literally from all over the urban centers to villages. But you will see in the villages such a wave of killing will not happen with this virus, because generally people who are working with the soil, their immunity is way higher than the city people. But Sadhguru, this… this sounds a very ruthless argument of survival to me, because you know survival of the fittest and when we come to a compassionate world where even the weak should survive and that's what the human civilization has been all about. That is why we are doing lockdown, isn't it? Yeah. But at the same time, if we consider virus or something which is, you know, surviving with us or not an enemy of us, but all said and done, the human civilization we have created is created on compassion, on the fact that the weaker sections of our society, weaker people, even their older people, the emotion of the people survive, not necessarily the bodies. We were not interested in the fit bodies to be surviving. We were even considered to people who are disabled and we have to create a system which protects everyone around us. And that's the reason maybe we are so much in awe of people who have gone out and actually, you know, risked their lives for, you know, other people. And so, Sadhguru, do you think that we will… if we talk about human civilization, we have come to a juncture where we'll have to actually truly decide which way we want to go from here, because these protected lives are also part of our master plan that we are protecting each other, not necessarily the bare plan which used to be survival of the fittest in the jungle, where if you… I was reading somewhere that the femur bone when, you know, and that was circulating in social media quite a lot that when people who couldn't walk started surviving is when the human civilization had a turning point, because before that people couldn't walk or for some reason are limping, will be eaten by the predators. And the moment they started healing means somebody was taking care of them. And taking care of others became the basic nature of human civilization. So, do you think from here are we going to a more ruthless world where the fittest and more immunity, the people who've got more immunity will survive and the ones who can't face it will finish off? But that's not the world we envisaged. That's not the human civilization we talked about. No, that is not at all what I was saying, Prasoon. What I'm saying is that nature or creation out of its magnanimity has given a certain sense of individuality or individual experience in our lives. But life doesn't happen as individual. Life is happening as one whole. I'm saying this, without the participation of bacteria and virus, there is no… no such thing as human life. I'm… what I'm saying is without us, they live well. Without them, there is no way for us to live. So, our idea of individuality, we have taken it too seriously. This is our problem. So, slowly we are becoming such glass bubbles that we are becoming devoid of life. All we have is our own thought and emotion. Our thought and emotion is a luxury when life is happening well. This is a luxury that creation has allowed us. First of all, the great luxury and magnanimity is, though we are nothing in this universe in terms of size and value and whatever in this cosmos, in spite of that we have an individual experience. We can sit here and experience ourselves as individual self, which is not a small thing. It's a tremendous thing. It is out of that all these thought, emotion, philosophy, civilization, everything. Having said that, now people are, you know, in different countries, they're proposing different kinds of philosophies. Somebody, you know, in United States they're saying we have the freedom to have haircut. We don't like this lockdown. We want to have haircut, so we will go out. So we'll go out with guns and have haircut. In India you saw they opened the liquor shops in Delhi and other places, you know what happened. So these people are now throwing scientific language at you and say the only way out is herd immunity. Herd immunity means seventy percent, sixty to seventy percent of the population should get the infection. Only then herd immunity will happen. Herd, the very word herd I don't like with reference to human beings. But they are looking for herd immunity. They are not talking science. They are pitching for their own compulsions. They can't sit at home. They want to go out. They want to drink. They want to have a haircut. So if we go for herd immunity, we will wipe out the geriatric population. We will wipe out all those vulnerable segments of population. For some reason their immune system is down. I was not talking about that. I am talking about the way we are forming life right now, the way we are living in the cities. We are living in such a way that our life itself, the very life breath is weak. If you live like that, every single virus that comes by in the next few decades or centuries, every one of them will threaten our love existence. This is because we've lost connection with how life happens. Life doesn't happen just here. Life is happening all around. You need to imbibe it all the time. Otherwise your life is of no substance. It will go away. Sir, do this constant struggle with nature and please you can throw light on this. This constant going loggerheads with nature is something which I probably feel was not part of at least Indian culture. Whereas I grew up in Uttarakhand and in the mountains I was born and my childhood I lived there. I never competed with the river. I bowed down to the river. In fact, I did not even know that adventure spot will become such a big thing later on and I would see white water rafting and stuff like that. When I go to Rishikesh today I see that. But in my childhood I saw more befriending the nature, more bowing down to nature, more taking orders from the nature and when the sun is down is the time to sleep. You know, there was certain respect and rhythm with which we were brought up. Where did we go, you know, getting into conquering nature and where did human civilization start competing with nature? When did this happen? Well, in 1947 when the British left, our brains also went away with them. So now whatever comes from there that's what we do. So this whole, you know, brutal way of producing things. Well, yesterday I was talking to somebody from Manchester so I was telling him you are the guys who started this whole business of mass production and for this mass production you started mass production schools. All you have is nuts and bolts, half of them are nuts, half of them are bolts. They of course fit into the economic engine somewhere and they're useful. But what kind of usefulness is that when people don't live, when people don't have profoundness of experience of life that all my, the value of my life is, you know, I'm worth two billion dollars, I'm not, I'm telling you. But the value of my life is some number in my bank account or the area of land that I own. So we have created this thing that our accumulations are the value of life. So this is something you must see still fortunately prevalent to some extent in Tamil Nadu. Suppose you go to a function, let's say you go to a wedding. If you see outside the Chowdhury, usually South Indian weddings, five thousand, ten thousand people would have gathered, we have to chain that now with social distancing. But if you go there, you will see every kind of vehicle will be parked, Bentley's and Mercedes and this and that and everything and also lots of TVS, mopeds and bicycles and everything. If you go inside, if you go towards the men's section, if you go towards the women's section, by looking at how many kilograms of gold is around their neck, you can judge who is rich, who is poor. But if you go towards the men's section, everybody will be in the same white starched shirt and dhoti. You cannot make out who came in the Bentley, who came by TVS Moped. They will all be same, they will sit in the same place without any distinction. Only by age and respect, they get some prominent place, not because how much money they have, how much property they have. This has always been the toss of this culture, but now we became a number game. How much money do you have accordingly? So who, if you say a big man in this town, what does the big man mean? Does it mean he has a big brain or does it mean to see he has a very big heart? No, he means he has a big pocket, nothing else. We have just reduced ourselves into a market place. Market place is not just in the Dalal street. The lulley is happening in everybody's minds and hearts. When people are getting married, there, before marriage, they're signing a pre-neptual agreement. When we part, who gets the dog, who gets the car, who gets the house? What? How do you weave two lives together when you have such a calculation in your head? I'm saying this is in many ways destruction of human civilization. Civilization means, as you said, it is born out of compassion and love for and concern for other lives around us that it is not about survival of the fittest. Now we are once again going back to survival of the fittest in the name of so-called modernization. This completely convoluted idea that being modern means you have to be western has to go. Even in United States, there is a quite a significant movement starting now that, you know, people should not be recognized for their wealth, for their money, but something else, what that something else they do not know, they're struggling to find that something else. But at least there is a thought and there is a movement in that direction. And you see the richest people wearing all-tone clothes, but unfortunately the tone clothes cost thousand... you know, thousands of dollars because of the tear. If they genuinely wear the same thing what the poor people wear, which happened in the sixties, you know, when everybody started wearing the same kind of clothes, we don't want to be looked upon as this is rich, this is poor. No, everybody wears the same sort of clothes. That was a good thing. But now a tear is costing you a thousand dollars more. If it's not tone, it is less. If it is tone, it is more. This is again another convolution. So fundamentally, this market mentality in our head is going to be in many ways destruction of our civilization. When I say destruction, it need not necessarily mean death. Death is a relief in many ways. When human beings start suffering immensely, death becomes a relief for most people. But destruction in terms of the fundamentals of why we come together. The reason why we come together in the form of a village or a town or a city is because individually if we exist in nature, there are too many challenges every day to survive. So we came together so that all of us can survive with the kind of what coalition of our capabilities, a cooperation of our intelligence. This is the reason why a society is formed. But is that the way our societies are building themselves up? Societies are worse than the jungle now. The social situation in the cities is worse than the jungle in terms of survival of the fittest. Yes, sir. So definitely what you talked about and I was referring to nature and I was my question was also about that how the man is competing with nature. And I think somewhere that has resulted into us, even in when the Kedarnath happened in Uttarakhand and written appointment time also about that, somehow if you go to the rural, the rural area… You mentioned Kedarnath, I have something to say about that. Can I? Yeah, please, please, Agur. So my point was that that time also, you know, I've been brought up in that belt. I know, you know, they were even not allowed to speak loudly in a vicinity of the temple and the jungle. They said that one Devi, you know, gets disturbed. There was a way of building folklore, tales, religion into respecting nature that you should not do it because the one Devi will hear it and she will get disturbed. Now as a child you heard that. So in that vicinity, forget building homes, forget digging that place. You didn't speak loudly. Now this is the way we respected the nature and the delicateness of the nature and the nuances of the nature and the memos of the nature. Now somewhere that disconnect has come, is it you are saying part of market economy? Is it come because of the market economy and consumption economy? And Kedarnath of course. So I… No, we lost the necessary awareness to keep the market in the market place. We got the market in our minds. That is a big problem. About Kedarnath and the place where you come from, what you're from, Joshimata? That side only. I am from Almora but yes, that… that the whole Garhwadabad, Kumaubaldia. See from the age of nineteen, twenty-seven years every year I trekked that region, the Chardham region. Mostly alone and later on I started taking a few people with me. So, about Kedar, I don't know how many dozen times I've been there. But I didn't stop at Kedar. I went further up to a place called Kanti Sarovar. This place is very important for us because this is where Adiyogi first started the… his first yoga program for the seven disciples of his today known as the Saptarishis, began in that place. So, when I went there to this Kanti Sarovar, it's a glacial lake. This is what burst and became a flood a few years ago. So when I went there I saw this is a glacial lake, an incredibly beautiful place. And every year because the glacier pushes this rubble and rubble has become like a dam and it holds the water there. And when I went there the first time when I came down, I met an army captain and you know he… because those days even getting a chapati was a big problem. It was not like how it is today, too many tourists and all that. So I went to the army camp to get myself a meal. So he invited me and he was interested in who I am and we were talking. Then I saw that Kanti Sarovar is sitting up there, a dam which is just by pebbles, rubble that is moved by the glacier. So inevitably, inevitably once in whatever number of years some geologist or somebody can make a calculation, but in my simple calculation I know maybe once in fifty, sixty or hundred years time, inevitably that lake has to burst and come down. And now if the lake bursts and come down where it will come, that valley, there they've built all these silly hotels. Hotels means very basic dwellings at that time and above all the army camp was also in that valley. Then I said, see all these idiots, they've put up this stuff. Right here when the lake opens up one day it'll wash them out. That is, they have no sense of anything, they've put it up there. But how can the army engineers put it here? Where is your sense of strategy that you put army camp also in this? One part of the army camp was also into the valley, one part was built on a higher ground. I said, how can you do this? He said, oh, how do you know this? I said, well, go, you have been there, the army people are always trekking to that place. I said, see the volume of water that is there, inevitably it's going to open up someday. All right? When the one hot summer, when it is hotter than usual than the amount of melting that happens, it is bound to open up. There's no question about that. It is a natural phenomenon, it has to happen. And when it happens, you have so many people living here, if it happens, it'll inevitably happen in summer, not in winter, that is when it melts. So obviously it will come. He said, I will inform my officers about this. I said, that is fine, but why? Why is it that we are not thinking? Why you should not even speak ease? Because in the valley, the riverb is such, if you just clap your hand, you may start an avalanche. That is how reverberations are. But here we went and dug tunnels. We built dams. Ganga, you know, right from ancient times, well, what happened in ancient India, nobody wants to believe that anymore. This whole, as I said, our brains went away. But even the British, the English always took ganga water in the ships because that was the only water which stayed fresh up to sixty days on the ships. All other water would go bad. Mughals, when Akbar and all went on campaigns, for his personal use he carried only ganga water because otherwise other water would go bad and he didn't want to drink water just about anywhere. He carried ganga water because it gave him a new sense of vigor. Our Sunderlal Bahuguna, I went to meet him at that time wanting to become a full-time volunteer in Chipko moment. I only met Vimala Devi, but I didn't get to meet him. He repeatedly said he was… all his ailments went away just by drinking ganga water. I must tell you, for days on end I've been without food trekking in the mountains, just living on ganga water. This is not because of somebody's belief. This is because of thousands of years of experience of people. We know this is what this particular water does to us. People think this is religion. This is not religion, this is just basic sense. It is true now, somebody is selling mineral water which comes from Switzerland and say this is thousand years old, this costs this much, that much… it costs hundred times more than a liter of water anywhere else. People are buying and drinking that. When that is sensible, if you say Ganga Gel, suddenly in the country it's become like you're a… some kind of a fanatic. Yeah. See, the problem is, I think, Satguru Waringal said and I think it needed to be said that somewhere a lot of things we did, everything which has an experiential value, which had an experiential value, we converted into exchange value. They said if there's no exchange value, it's not important. A fire goes and burns a jungle. It's not important and reportable for a journalist because it does not have exchange value. Oil tanker bursts suddenly because the market fluctuates because of that, suddenly it becomes important. So anything which does not have exchange value became unimportant for us. Somewhere I think I would want a little bit moved to poetry as we had decided today and I think one poem I wanted to read is that it's us in whom all kinds of people reside. You're not one. You have other people living in you. You have various sides of you. So this poem is called tujme koi aur rahita hai. And then I would, Satguru, of course, we would be requesting you to also recite some work because this is a combination of poetry and also I have to definitely ask you a question about your painting. Tujme koi aur rahita hai. Somebody else resides in you. That's the, that's, but I'll read it and explain it to you later. Tujme koi aur rahita hai. Gaur se sunna beech beech mein jaane wo kya kya kya kya hai. Tujme koi aur rahita hai. Teri hariali ke andar ek teela hai registani. Teri hariali ke andar ek teela hai registani. Ek santulit tu hai aur tujme hi rahti hai nadani. Ek santulit tu hai aur tujme hi rahti hai nadani. Ghao chupa hai, parbhehta hai, tujme koi aur rahita hai. Gaur se sunna beech beech mein jaane wo kya kya kya kya hai. Angan mein jo vrksh khe hai, Angan mein jo vrksh khe hai, sab tumne hi bo ek din. Tumhe yaad hai, hasi khil khili, par tumhi thi roi ek din. Tumme hi hai jiddi asha. Tumme hi hai jiddi asha, aur tumme hi ghor nirasha. Tum hi goti chalte ho aur tumhi fek rahe ho paasa. Tumme hi hai jiddi asha, aur tumme hi ghor nirasha. Tum hi goti chalte ho, aur tumhi fek rahe ho paasa. Apne zulm khudi sehta hai, tujme koi aur rahita hai. Ye manki narangi cheero hai. Ye manki narangi cheero, faak faak, tumhi ho saare. Itchhao ke is kamre mein, need tumhari, sukhna tumhare hai. Khut krta hai, khut bharta hai, tujme koi aur rahita hai. Tum hi chand ke sheetal premi, tumhi agni ko ho uk saate. Tum hi chand ke sheetal premi, tumhi agni ko ho uk saate. Tum hi shanti ka doot bane ho, tumhi rakth ko ho dehkate. Phir bhi rangh kaun bharta hai, tujme koi aur rahita hai, ghor se sunna bhijh bhijh mein, jaane wo kya kya kaya tha hai. So this is about exploring yourself and the stupidity or the destruction resides in very much in you. And it depends which chord has been struck. And that's where someone like you, Sadhguru comes in, who strikes and evokes the right side of you. Do you think, Sadhguru, in a human mind or human being, the good and bad resides together? Well, I would like to separate the human mind and the being about so many people residing in us. My entire life's work is that I exorcised all of them. My ancestors, my parentage, my teachers, my friends, my loud ones, I exorcised all of them. And let me read this poem. Because you said this, I had this ready, let me see. And anyway, I'm going to send you… I'm going to literally torment you with… I'll send five hundred poems to you. You must write a introductory, I'm publishing a book, five hundred poems. So this is called Empty Page. When thoughts that are too profound for words form in one's mind, heart swells, lifts tides high, the veil of time cracks and reveals the roots of past and what pretends as future. When thoughts that are too profound for words form in one's mind, heart swells, lifts tides high, the veil of time cracks and reveals the roots of past and what pretends as future. A man who lives through this is no more just a man. The world will label him a sage, but in truth he is a fathomless, empty page. A man who lives through this is no more just a man. The world will label him a sage, but in truth he is a fathomless, empty page. Nice. Very nice. Can you just speaking on one? If human experience in many ways is reflection of what we perceive. If what we perceive sticks to the mirror of our minds. Suppose we have a mirror at home and you have appeared in front of that mirror ten thousand times. Even if it remembers ten percent of your past appearances, that mirror is no good mirror anymore. It's finished. You have a mirror, it reflects you perfectly well right now. The moment you're gone, you're gone. Totally gone. No memory left. So the entire spiritual work is just about that. You want to exorcise your parents, your friends, your loved ones, your ancestors, your genetic values, your even evolutionary memory so that when you sit here, you sit like an empty page. So all these people who reside within us means in some way we're yet to become an individual because an individual means something that is not further divisible. If there are… there is a crowd inside, this is the only reason why it is so hard to transform people because they have loved ones in their heart. They are willing to give up their enemies, at least outwardly. But they are things that they like, they can't give up. With the crowd inside, you cannot go through transformation. To transform, first of all you must have a form. A crowd never has a form, it's a nebulous piece of thing. As you said this moment you are a symbol of peace, next moment you're violent, next moment you're this, next moment you're that, simply because it… crowd is always a nebulous form. It is not a form. So when we talk about transformation, the first step is to become a form. It is just reverse of what you want. First you become a form, you become an individual form, then only you can transform. If you remain a crowd, there is no room for transformation. You can just make the… you can make the crowd more complex by peppering it with more stuff. But Sadhguru, it's a great thought, but at the same time going back to what we were talking earlier, now India has been a collective society where your existence, your individuality did not matter that much. As now me, myself, people started talking, children are talking about me time. You're talking about me being very, very important. In fact, I was trying to see and people are saying that, you know, we have become more participative, interactive. And if you go back to the tribal culture, I think even art is very collective. You see the tribal dancers, they don't… there is no active performer and a passive audience. There is an active performer and an active audience where they are co-creating something. They are together in folk songs. I've seen that people participated in folk songs and you see that people get up, sit down, they perform together. There is not an individual which is trying to outshine you. And if I have become a seeker of individuality, don't you think this individualism will lead into a society which is very selfish? See, there is something called an individual which is a nature's gift to us. Creation's magnanimity has been showered upon us that we are individuals. Individualism or individuality is something that you philosophize your individuality and try to build something else out of it. Now, when you say this society was not individualistic, that is not so because this is the only culture which has been talking about individual mukti, individual transformation. Everywhere else they've been talking about collective stuff and that's the reason why today individualism is spreading from the west, not from the east. But here also we have become more west than west, that's a different matter. But I'm talking about west and east more metaphorically, not necessarily geographically. So when we say we are a society, if you look at all the religious teachings in the western cultures, everything, they always talked about the herd and the flock should grow together. That will never happen with a human being. Individuals will always grow as individuals. But individualism is a reaction to this flock that they forcefully made. When you make them flocks, now there will rise individualism. Here every individual was always allowed to seek his own spiritual path. It doesn't matter. See right now in every other religion, once you say this is the word of God, you must just follow that because God has said it. But this is the only culture where even if so-called god-like entities came, we only argued with them, we only debated with them, we only asked them thousand questions. You just see Siva tries to speak to his wife. She freaks him with thousand questions. Krishna after many years of waiting, that too at the edge of a battlefield tries to speak to is this one guy who is so dear and close to him. Look at that guy, how many questions. And look at me, all these idiots are asking how many questions every day and night. Because in this culture, individual growth is most important. So this is what logical mind fails to understand. Growth does not mean you will become a big individual. Growth means your individuality dissolves and you become universal. But instead of being an individual, you try to make a herd. Then in reaction, people develop philosophies of individualism. This me-time has come now. Time is there for all of us. Who is stopping you? What is this me-time? Me-time means you get lost. That's me-time. Thank you. What I was, I absolutely understand what you say and final dissolving and finding oneself. What I meant was this four line I'll read. See, I have used the metaphor of a dia, a lamb quite a lot. And mostly I've used it in a sense that the one which fights with the storm and shines. But I was talking about the mothers, the silent people in our lives, our relatives, our teachers, who are different kind of lamb. And I said, I wrote this kind of a little humor in it. Very domesticated lamb you are. Do you live for others? Why do you live for others even if you are a tyohar? You are very domestic. Do you live for others? Why do you live for others even if you are a tyohar? Do you fight with the winds? If you fought with the storms? Do you fight with the winds? You get a different kind of ruthba. If you fight with the winds, you get a different kind of ruthba. If you fight with the winds, you get a different kind of ruthba. If you fight with the winds, you get a different kind of ruthba. You are very domestic. You live for others. So this is a different kind of lamb I was talking about. See, if we... if we look at our own mothers, please whoever will listen to this, listen to this carefully because I am not saying this with any disrespect or without appreciation of what these Garelu Dei people without them life is not the same, okay? So, let's say we take our mother as example, if we look at it from outside, in today's context, the way people are looking at life in today's context, not when we were growing up, we did not see it that way. Now when we look at it from today's context, how everybody is talking about me time, such a thing never occurred to our mothers, no me time. Because... is it because their selfless survey is their dedicated, it's not like that. It is just that they form their identity little larger than themselves. For them, me was my family. So this situation happened when I was about twelve years of age. I mean today, I know especially in the West and also in urban centers in India, it's becoming necessary that mothers have to tell their children every few days, I love you, I love you, otherwise children will question, do you really love me or not. Because they want something, if you don't get it, suddenly a doubt arises whether my mother loves me or not. My friend's mother loves him more than my mother loves me. These kind of things are happening. Such things never happened to us. Nor did our mothers ever say, I love you to us. Never once my mother ever said, I love you. But that was never in question, she lived for us. It's not even that such a thought existed that she lived for us and all this. But there was no such questions because they created an ambience where such things did not arise. So when I was around twelve years of age, she had this... I don't know if I have to call it a habit or a weakness or an insight, that she would end up sharing things with me like I am almost like her elder brother. She never treated me as the youngest child in the family. I was never treated that way. I was not cuddled, I was not carried because I didn't like those things right from a very early age. So I was... she would share things with me sometimes that she wouldn't even want to share with her husband that she worshipped literally. So one day some emotional situation, not exactly I love you kind of stuff, but she said something which is expressing her emotion to me. Then by then my mind was crazy with questions. Then by then I had produced a few... I was also billionaire by then because I had a billion questions. So when she expressed this, I asked her, suppose I was born in the next house, would you still feel this way about me? I thought it was just a question. But her eyes welled up with tears and she walked away. I thought, what did I do wrong? I just asked a question. But after about ten, fifteen minutes she came and I was still there. And she came and touched my feet like she would do to some elder. She came and held my feet and did like this. I thought, what's happening here? I had no clue at that time. But I just asked a question and it evoked so many things in her. Because at that moment when I asked that question it struck her so strong, because she wouldn't feel that way if I was in the next house, I'm sure. I just asked a simple question in my mind because I was a billionaire, you know? A cloud of billion questions were always following me at that time. It took me a long time, full-time dedication to clear up all that cloud. So this garevali, what? Garevali, garevali. Domesticated. I have to spend more… I have to spend some more time with you, Sadhguru. Teach me some Hindi. I have to come to the ashram. Garelu dia, right? So these people shine not because they want to shine, these people shine simply because inclusiveness has become their way of existence. If only their inclusiveness grew beyond the family, they would become fantastic. Which my great-grandmother was, she was, you know, somebody that everybody came to. Always I saw this happening. My grandfather is a big, you know, moneyed man. Every day in the morning transactions happen, people come for payments, this, that, and there he handles it in his own way. Like a king, he sits there and deals with things. In the backyard, my great-grandmother sits there. After they're done with horrible transactions with my grandfather, they will always come to visit her. They have no need to visit her. She is not going to give them a rupee because she doesn't have any. But they come there simply because they like to be with her. They'll simply hang around. She will just abuse them nicely, lovingly abuse each one of them. The more… the more she abuses them, the more they love her. So her inclusiveness went beyond the family. Suddenly people almost looked at her worshipfully, simply because of that. So what we say as mother, you know, a few days ago as mother's day, today is some nurse's day, whatever, all these things, what it means is, somewhere your care and concern went beyond your individual nature. You did not take your individuality too seriously. Nature has given you this out of magnanimity that you have individual experience. Don't become too serious about it because that is not true. When the virus comes, at least you must realize you are not real an individual. They are living within you. Exactly. Well said, Satguru. I think to your point, and I think if these mothers and these grandmothers and these were too individualistic and if they were not ready to subsume their identity and look after us, we would be… I think we talked about it earlier that, you know, we never called them working women. We called them non-working women because they did not bring paycheck. They were having a love affair. Yes. Yes. Their love affair with not just with one man, their love affair with whatever they considered as their absolute love affair, totally, all the time. Yes. And I think we are the product of that care and love and that love affair. And I think we have not done badly. So I think that the whole structure was somehow very good. Satguru, coming to your painting, I think I was intrigued and I was looking at, I always look at your work with a lot of admiration and respect. And I have also asked you earlier, Satguru, your imagery of snake. Now, of course, you have talked a lot about snakes and the significance of it and especially the audience who is sitting there, they are much enlightened. But I still would want you to talk about why there is in your subconscious, to the conscious, everywhere this occurs a lot. What is the significance of snakes and also why does it connect? Why does it connect with all of us? We all of us get, you know, mesmerized, entangled, intrigued, inquisitive about seeing snakes in any form. What is that so mystical about snakes? You opened up Pandora. When the snake comes out, it will become an endless story, Prasoon. Maybe they will get to find the music for your poetry by then. Yes. Maybe I'm doing it for that. But a little brief touch upon it, Satguru, what would be great? I will… I will do that. But for many people who will listen to this and you also because you're a intellectual person, an intellect will naturally try to find meaning. Meaning is very important for an intellect because anything that you cannot strike down with, this is the meaning of this, intellect becomes uncomfortable. It cannot exist in a meaningless space. So, I'll read this little poem for you and then we'll talk about the snakes because I don't want people to give meaning to me and my snakes. And then I will also use snakes in a very different context. I would also read that for you. This poem is called Off Meanings. Call it what you want, love, friendship, purpose or even God. You are scanning the invisible for an illusion that may assist your life to find meanings. In abandoning this search, shall you find the invisible presence, sans meaning to ride this great phenomena of creation without contamination of meanings. So please do not contaminate my snakes with meaning because, well, at one time I died because of a snake bite. At another time I have come alive because of snake bite. Well, after making a wreck of my body after the dhyanaling of consecration, today I am, you know, if you had seen me fifteen years ago, today I look much younger, better, healthier, everything, not because of the lockdown, even before that I'm saying. Snakes, venom and snakes, connections with me have always been the source of strength for me. And let us not try to find philosophical or mystical meanings in that. There is, there is creation, which all of us can see and feel with our five senses. But it's very obvious that there is something creating this. Being human beings, the first simplistic thought that comes to human mind is, it must be some man creating up there. Somebody who is sitting up there who has a head of his up in the sky and from there he is creating this. That was a, that looked like a relevant explanation when our idea of creation was just this planet. Once we saw creation is such that this planet doesn't even matter, it is such a small thing. In that we are even smaller, though we think too big, too much of ourselves, it is nothing. When we saw this, suddenly this idea of one man sitting up there and creating is becoming irrelevant, so few people are still hanging on to it. But generally that is dissipating and fifty percent of the world's population beginning to question why is it a man, that itself dismantles the man fifty percent. And this is happening. Why I'm saying this is, see we are always trying to find an explanation, why we explain everything to ourselves and in turn try to force it on everybody else is because mind cannot live without meaning. When I say mind I'm talking about, the intellect cannot live without a meaning, it needs a meaning. If there is no meaning it will become disturbed. Now the most important aspect of exploration is if you want to explore, whether it is science or you are just a wild explorer, there is no more room on the planet to explore. But if you are an explorer of space or whatever or you are a spiritual seeker, the most important thing is you don't make up meanings. You don't look for meanings. You just look for how to deepen the experience, how to make this experience of life more profound and more profound because only what you have experienced has actually lived with you. Meanings come and go. You see how every two years, three years scientific explanations are coming endlessly. That means we are admitting we were wrong all this time, clearly. So what is the guarantee you're right this time? There is no such thing. So profoundness experience is more valuable than you finding a meaning because meaning is just a logical conclusion we make about something. Having said that, why the snakes? See among various creatures which exist on this planet, different animals have different kinds of capabilities. They've evolved in different ways. Snake has evolved in a certain way that one thing is it has no ears probably a whole lot of people don't know this. A snake is stone deaf. It has no sense of sound. So it has its whole body to the ground. Probably a snake did not develop four legs mainly because it has no ears. This is how I've been in my childhood I went on thinking about it. Why is it this one creature did not have legs and still its locomotion is so good because you know I've caught hundreds of snakes right from the age of six, seven years of age and I know how quick you have to be to catch a snake and he's doing this without legs. No legs but look at his locomotion how it is, how efficient it is on the terrain that he is. Only if you put him on a smooth floor then he cannot do that but otherwise he's super efficient with his locomotion. And this possibility of it is possible that he developed a very keen sense of feeling everything because he has no ears. I have met some people who have been born deaf and because of that they couldn't speak also but they have a very keen sense of everything simply because they cannot hear anything they are super alert. So snake became super alert like this so alert it started perceiving things in ways most people cannot perceive. This is why the imagery that always next to Adiyogi there is a snake not at his feet right next to him because he's as perceptive as the yogi. So I must tell you this these are times when you know always for some reason I have some understanding now of that but always I went for long meditations only in the afternoons. Everybody would do it in the morning or evening or night but for me afternoons were the best time somewhere around 2.45, 3 o'clock if I sit till 7 in the evening I will be sitting somewhere in one jungle. If I simply sit there after a few hours if I open my eyes there would be five tens cobras right there in front of me all waiting for me to open my eyes nor the creature will come like this they simply have a perception the moment you transcend your physical nature even a little bit if you show that sign they will be there. So one thing that I found was because I have been bitten by them early on but later on I have consumed the venom in so many different occasions sometimes publicly many times privately. So when I took this I clearly know it brings a separation between you and your body just like that. It is dangerous to do that nobody should try this because it may separate you for good. It does if you don't take care of it it will do that. But venom is not poison there is a difference between venom and poison. Today modern medicine is trying is much research is happening how snakes venom, scorpion venom, spider venom all these things if properly used they could be the future answer for all neurological ailments that human beings are going through much research is happening in this direction. Why this is so is see our neurological system the complexity and sophistication of our neurological system is what is giving us such a profound experience. You're writing poetry only because of the complexity of your neurological system if you had the neurological system of an earthworm or a grasshopper no poetry will come out only eating reproduction this is what will happen this whole thing of experiencing life in a certain way with a certain sensitivity and be able to express this all this is because we have the most complex neurological system and this venom triggers the neurological system in a certain way well when it comes to death by snake bite it works differently. There were some venoms work on neurological system some and you know pulmonary system that's a different matter but still venom has a significant impact on one's perception if you know how to make use of it. So in this context by possessing that venom snake has become competent to perceive things in a certain way if you know how to handle them. See this is one thing if you have because they are always going by your chemistry you can go in the jungle and just pick up a venomous snake just like that not by holding by his head and all just like that if you just take him he will simply come you show a little bit of anxiety he will immediately go for you. When I you know when I walked around in the jungles all by myself people used to always wonder how I survive where is the food largely I survived on honey all I did was I took my motorcycle petrol tube which was just fifteen to eighteen inches long and huge hives will be there in the western gods and they will always build in such a way on that kind of a branch where a bear cannot come an average sloth bear wears any weighs anywhere between seventy-five to eighty to eighty-five kilograms so it builds on that kind of a branch that if a bear comes it will shake and it will know so I am just about that weight at that time I am around just over seventy kilograms maybe a few kilograms less than a bear so I crawl up slowly and I stick the petrol tube and drink these are big black bees if eight ten of them bite you in your face the swelling that it causes you will not be able to breathe and you will die if you open your mouth and if it bites inside your mouth just one will do it will kill you but they won't bite you many times I'm drinking oh you know up to a liter of honey from these hives sticking my pipe they think I'm one of them in this is don't think this is the being I'm talking about because sometimes the honey is all over my lips and mouth sometimes few of them come and sit here but simply I keep drinking but if you show little anxiety they'll immediately go for you all these creatures which have venom have a special capability of perception so snakes became very significant for me in many ways whenever I have to do something significant they simply appear in my life always thank you sir guru I will read this poem and this is something which you're talking about the venom as you said but I have used snake as snake is surprised to see me after biting me snake is looking at me and is very surprised that I haven't died so this is the poem about that it's not only about me or a person it's about Indian civilization it's about India it's about us it's about the culture it's well so a lot of metaphors you will see coming but it's all about being used or as a civilization being used to wish wish and how to absorb the venom so I know it's a profound thought but can I tell you a small joke you know I early on when I started first teaching it was like a crescent for me I would ride on my motorcycle and teach in three four cities Hyderabad Bangalore Mysore Mangalore this was my route this I'm talking what nearly 40 years ago so when I was in Mangalore Mangalore is probably the only place or maybe one of the few places where there is a homeopathic you know medical college a medical college with master's degree and everything in homeopathy so I met a doctor who was over 70 years of age and he came to my program and we kind of very nice man and we met a few times and we had conversations after a few years when I did not go back to Mangalore for almost maybe five six years then I just went back and I thought I should meet him and I went walked into his clinic he was still keeping a clinic he was over 70 as I was walking in I saw an advertisement that somebody had put up some local medicine which is a kind of an antidote for all kinds of snake venoms I looked at this because I know enough about snake venoms I've been bitten by them there are some which will affect your cardiovascular system some will affect your neurological system they're definitely different and they need different kinds of antidotes so when I was in the course of conversation with him I said how did you allow this somebody to put up this board in front of your clinic because somebody claims there's a common antidote for everything so he's a very wise man he said see the thing is ninety percent of the snakes in India are non-poisonous so it works ninety percent of the time I was just wondering if it was that kind of a snake that bit you that grew we are definitely moving into you know I think we had already planned for an hour we have kept on going a couple of more questions around the times we are going through a lot of people are spending a lot of time with their loved ones and themselves so two people they are spending most time with these days in the lockdowns either with their loved ones whom they felt they love and they are feeling the overdose of them and they are peeling off layers and layers and they are telling each other all the layers have been peeled off now nothing is left out there you'll have to rediscover me altogether and another one is that people who are trying I mean spending time with oneself and very uncomfortable in fact even that that and then we hear that there is an in the west of course I'm hearing when I talk to my counterparts in in in in US and New York I all hear is the mental tension and mental health of the employees of the various organizations in the lockdown one thing one hand is relationship another hand is time with oneself this is giving birth to a lot of questions do you think is it it is unnatural for people to spend this much of time with a few people and is there any remedy or guideline you'll suggest how to you know survive this phase as far as the relationships go you must request the prime minister to remove the lockdown before yes he's going to talk at eight o'clock now so I was in conversation with a few police officers and one of the officers who works in the woman and children cell in Tamil Nadu whose heads that department said there is an enormous increase of domestic violence because of the lockdown so people are bashing up their loud ones that's what is happening so we need to understand this that there is no need to deceive ourselves with all these grand philosophies and beliefs that we have I love you you love me actually it is not that there is no love at all between people there is but fundamentally human relationships are need driven there are needs there are physical needs psychological needs emotional needs maybe economic and social needs to fulfill these needs we form variety of relationships families one of them so we kind of exaggerate these things into certain unrealistic space now when you're put together in one place it can become terrible some people are enjoying this time it's not everybody is experiencing it badly so many of them are coming to reality which I think is a good thing at least you know where you stand I always tell people Sadhguru I've been disillusioned by this person I said disillusion must have disillusionment must happen at the earliest possible time because I don't believe that you must live in illusion for the rest of your life you must be disillusioned as quickly as possible and learn to live with reality the way it is why are you trying to create a parallel reality of wonder and something else in your mind the creation is too much wonder there is no need for you or me to invent anything if you look at a leaf if you look at a grasshopper if you look at anything everything is too absolutely miraculous there is no need for you to create other kinds of miracles and other kinds of nonsense in your head well human beings have needs we come together we can conduct this gracefully in a sweet manner we call that love affection whatever is perfectly fine but when you exaggerate these things because you watch the movies and come and you think life is all about you know family means you must be just blowing kisses to each other all the time that will happen because you're all the time going away yeah but if you stay there you need to understand family means management family means cleaning the bloody house family means doing so many chores all the time somebody else was doing it you never paid attention to it everything was okay when it comes down and you understand the mechanics of what makes people living together work see right now suddenly we are appreciating the people who clean the streets people who do this work in the hospital we must understand we were even appreciating the police that we are always complaining about because we must understand society is a larger family if this has to work those who clean the street those who take care of the hospital the police very vital without all these people working and doing that work that you think is a bad work or dirty work without that work you will have no society no family in any reasonable sense so right now coming to that reality the sooner you come to that the better it is because with that everybody can behave more responsibly and sensibly towards each other and to ourselves above all right now the struggle with being with myself people who are alone immensely struggling within themselves i've always been talking about this see if you are with me and you are suffering maybe it's me but you're alone and you're suffering obviously you're in bad company you never did anything to fix that company well if your company is so bad to you just imagine what everybody else is going through people who work with you people who live please this is one thing you must fix you may not be able to fix the whole world at least this one person you must fix that if you sit here it's a pleasant experience this is why in our engineering constantly we are going on right now in this time we're offering this in a big way to people because if you do not make yourself in such a way that you are a wonderful company to be with for yourself how will anybody else enjoy your company i think we have said it number of times in fact uh repeatedly and i have always admired that in not even in people you're in talked about education like that it starts with fixing the person and if you if you prepare a good person to begin with i mean good is a very loose term and you you'll see the manifestations of it everywhere i i we get that message always from you uh because we're talking about relationship and we have talked about different kind of poetry before we reach towards a few few last questions i would decide this one this is about breaking relationships are good what happens when a relationship breaks and people who like that kind of poetry would uh probably like it uh and sattguru you had said you're going to recite a lot of poetry so don't don't think that i'm imposing and getting the audience and for free khamosh bhaih rahi ho ghi haath kuch sardh saa rahe ho gha japa rana bichad rahe ho gha rath al mario se dil hongi rath al mario se dil hongi haath jin ko tatool te hongi man mein kuch aur ho rahe ho gha hoot kuch aur bolte hongi beta maasam umad rahe ho gha jab purana bichad rahe ho gha koshishe kitni ho rahi hongi khut ko samla hoa dikhane ko ek abhiney sa chal rahe ho gha teez ko ghao ko chupane ko koshishe kitni ho rahi hongi khut ko samla hoa dikhane ko ek abhiney sa chal rahe ho ghaa teez ko ghao ko chupane ko ko hi aage na badh rahe ho gha jab purana bichad rahe ho gha kaanch lam ho ke farsh peh hongi yaat talwa mein chub rahe ho ghi kaanch lam ho ke farsh peh hongi yaat talwa mein chub rahe ho ghi uska sparsh tutta ho gha uski khuspo boe buj rahe ho ghi aakhri patta chad rahe ho gha jab purana bichad rahe ho gha uski bhaen bola rahe hongi uska resham mulaj rahe ho gha uski bhaen bola rahe hongi uska resham mulaj rahe ho gha uska hu tha shool jacta ho gha uska hu hru phoo sao gha ho gha 소이 toz zib pe asa ho gha jab purana bichad rahe ho gha So this was just, I found an opportunity that I never decided this. All the work I was trying to decide today is all fresh news or because in the presence of Sadguru, I'll never get that, you know, the great sort of blessing and his, you know, audience. So I thought, I will… Sadguru, would you like to recite anything, anything more today or should we move? Yes, I would like to say something about this. See, in the Hindi cinema, the town in which you live is still… this cinema is still talking about, you know, man-woman coming together, breaking up. There was no breaking up. Thirty years ago in Hindi cinema, there was no such thing as breaking up. They were talking jannam, jannam, jannam. Now it is evolved into a place where they come together, they break up and miserable things happen, all this. But if you go to Hollywood, they're talking about clash of worlds, different worlds, aliens coming and clashing. So this is just expanding from one to another. What I'm saying is, this is why that question that you asked about Uttarakhand and, you know, that evolution of how a human evolution was handled in this life in a certain way, this is why in this culture we held one goal. Our goal in life is mukti, liberation is the only goal. Everything else arranges itself around us according to our needs. This is the most honest way to handle life. What this being always seeking for is to be above everything. It may not be conscious in most human beings, but always this longing is there. So we made it a conscious cultural process that every human being has to aspire for their liberation. On the way you may do business, you may get married, you may have children, you may form thousand different relationships in the society, variety of activities you may do. But all this must be constantly used only to make yourself free, not yourself, get yourself entangled. This with this one fundamental direction, this much darda need not happen, I'm saying. But Sadhguru, where does death figure in this? Where does, in the mukti you have always said that death is a cosmic joke. Where does death figure in that? Is it a termination or is it a transformation? Death for… I'm also talking about this death, Sadhguru, because your book has just come out. And we spoke about it earlier and we also spoke about whether death is a termination or transformation. And my problem, Sadhguru, is that we've been for centuries telling people that death is just transformation, it's just a journey. But still people have so much of fear of death. We still see the whole human civilization absolutely obsessed with death. If this is such a, if mukti is such a fundamental truth, why does it need teaching? Why does it need coaching? Why does this truth doesn't drown upon people naturally? Why do we have to try so hard to accept this truth that I am just transforming, I am just a traveler, I will just pass by, I am going into a… Why do we have to repeat it so much? Why is it not felt easily if it is such a natural truth? See, is it true that it is natural for every human being, wherever they are, they are striving to be something more than what they are right now. This is mukti. But only problem is, because of variety of things that have happened to them, they are seeking an ultimate possibility in installments. There is no human being who is not striving to be something more. Now when they get a little sick, they may say, I don't want anything more. Tomorrow morning if they are well, again they are ready, they want something more. This something more may be happening in terms of money, wealth, power, pleasure, love, whatever, whatever their currency, whatever they know best, in that form they will seek. But essentially what they are seeking is, they want expansion. How much expansion if you look at it, they want limitless expansion. Well, that is mukti, is death determination. If you are identified, if your entire experience of life is limited to your physical framework of life, definitely it's a determination. But if your experience of life has gone beyond your physical form, when I say gone beyond your physical form, most people are not conscious on a day-to-day basis that they were born as little children and slowly they accumulated this body over a period of time. So what we accumulate cannot be us, it can only be ours. So now our identification with our physical form or the framework that we call as body has become so total, this is the fundamental ignorance. Because of that we go in installments because physical form can only expand in installments. The moment your experience of life goes beyond that, then mukti is not after death. When you must live in mukti, that's the most important thing. You must live in absolute freedom and liberation. So let me read a short poem that I… these are all lockdown poems. All I am reading today are lockdown poems. Because they're giving me time. It's very good to liberate. This is called as human. Even when at home, I longed for home. Even when at home, I longed for home. Searing pain of longing for home, strangely got cured in being homeless. Searing pain of longing for home, strangely got cured in being homeless. When the walls of home dissolved, a pristine home, unwalled and unfettered, devoid of love, affection or companions blossomed. A pristine home, unwalled, unfettered, devoid of love, affection or companions blossomed. Shall I call it my being? So, see we are the only creature on this planet who is being referred to right now as a being. We don't call a tiger a tiger being or an elephant an elephant being or anything else. Only a human is a being. What this means is you have the capacity to be the way you want. I said capacity. This doesn't mean everybody is exploring that capacity. Now the struggle of, you know, whatever the relationship struggle, this, that, everything is just that you are surrendering your capacity to be. You are making yourself into a bundle of thoughts, emotions, ideas, opinions and prejudices that you've formed in your life. Well, these are things that you acquired, but you are a human being. That means you know how to be. If you know how to be, you are naturally liberated. There's nothing else. Because it is the entanglements are only in your body and in your mind. The accumulation of body and accumulation of mind, if you create a little bit of space between that and you, this is the end of all entanglement. This is the end of all suffering also. So, right now we believe that if there is no suffering, there'll be no profoundness because all, you know, I'm not saying this in any derogatory way. That is the way society experiences and cinema expresses. What you're born with pain, you're live with pain, you will die with pain, all these songs are there, you know? There is the say he is something, something. Sir Guruji, you know, when we talk about creativity and I feel that whatever needed to be created has been created by the Almighty. The nature is biggest creator. We just have a vantage point. Life, the same river, which I experienced at the riverbank as a quiet Shanta. Someone who is struggling with the waves experiences at the river as aggressive. The same river from different vantage points is experienced very differently. And I see creative work like that. What has been created is already there. It's just that we experience it in our own unique way. And I think whether it's a relationship of two people, whether it's your relationship with God, your relationship with nature, I think we have our own unique way of experiencing that. And that's what creates creative work. And so I think there is nothing bigger, small because in that sense, if I ask you a question, is there anything called high art, low art, popular art, fine art, do you distinguish between these two? We do distinguish between a high art and low art. Do you think art has hierarchy at all? No, not at all, but if at all if I have to, you know, make some kind of categorization of art, I would say art coming from deep levels of frustration and art coming from joy, you could separate like this. I think this art coming from deep levels of suffering and frustration became the style of European art at a certain period of time. And the whole world is trying to omit it that now, which is a very negative thing because when such things are always on your walls, slowly it will have an impact on you. If it cannot have any impact, it cannot be called art. It is art because it is capable of impacting you, not just visually in many more ways. So art that comes out of very deep suffering, because somewhere we have valued suffering, unfortunately. Religions in the world have elogized suffering. No, in this culture we've always valued anand, blissfulness, ecstasy is the highest value. Suffering is not value because we always saw suffering as self-created. Joy has not self-created as when you're connected with life, you're naturally blissful. When you're unconnected with life and become a mental mess, then you have suffering and frustration. So that art which comes from the deep level of frustration and suffering, and that which comes from a joyful expression of life, I would like to categorize art in these two ways, not as high and low. Okay. Thank you, Sadhguru. I think that was very, very enlightening. I think gave to hear your poetry as well and talk many things. We have already spent a couple of hours. Let's hear the sound… Let us see if they have mutilated your poem enough. Yes. I would like to request them if they have something, Sadhguru. I'm sure they will have. But thank you, Sadhguru. It was great. Thank you very much. Yes, yes. I think beautiful, a beautiful composition. And I think this should be performed by them and I would be happy because I think what the tune also has captured the longing for the solution in this. And I think which has come out very well. But, Sadhguru, it was a privilege as always to have the conversation with you and look forward to the lockdown opening and physically being able to sit with you and talk. But technology has done a great job. And thank you to everyone and Isha there today to be able to organize this. And it was wonderful and everybody who's there, God bless. Thank you. Thank you, Prasoon. Blessings to you and family.