 HBCU Dodgers Radio, welcome back to Distinguished Conversations with members of the historically black college and university community. Today, a really unique turn for us on the show. We got two distinguished black professionals who are really making waves with a petition to try to get the awareness up in Hollywood about equity and accessibility for African-American voices and leaders in the reality show industry. With this, we have Morales College alumnus, Wendell Holland and Jatia Hart, a graduate of the FAMU, FSU, Florida State University College of Engineering. So, brother and sister, great to have you on today. Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for having us. Let's first focus on the petition itself. So what you guys are looking for is a multi-tiered approach to how reality shows and networks by proxy can be more equitable towards African-American representation, not just on the competition side, but also in the production and showrunner side. What kind of created the wherewithal within you guys to say, hey, man, there's a problem here and we really need to address it. Jatia, we'll start with you with that one. So I think when you grow up in the African-American community and when you have the opportunity to experience the full richness of HBCUs and being in classes with people who look like you and learning tough subjects, it just really instills you with a sense of pride when you go out into the world. And so for Wendell and I, we were both on Survivor and what we saw on Survivor was not the rich and full experience of the African-American community that we grew up in and we were nurtured in. And so really we always had, for me, I've always had an issue with how Survivor portrays us and kind of like, we are afterthought, we're not full characters and really for me it was the murder of George Floyd and also we saw other people like Baxler Nation, African-American Baxler came out and so really the time was right. We had been talking about it for a while. We had a Black Survivor alumni group. We were actually playing in a Black Survivor picnic for May that got canceled and the time was really right and it was something that we could do with our unique experience to go to, you know, a top show on a network, on the top network and really affect change. So that's what really started this movement. So Wendell, you actually competed in it and won the show. Can you talk about that experience but was it an extra layer of competition in the sense that you're dealing with, I guess, the rigor of being a show participant but then also, you know, the social or the, you know, the racial elements of it, how tough or how much of a part of your turn on the show did that play a factor? For sure. We, as Black castaways, we are playing this dual game per se where we're playing Survivor in this made up universe and but we're also playing the, I am the one of, in my case, one of three Black castaways out there but you're always in the extreme minority. I was the only Black male out there in my season so it felt like I did have extra hurdles to overcome especially because I was out there as the only Black male but didn't see a lot of Black producers out there and even in confessionals it's like you can't, you can, I feel like I would have been able to say more and be more understood and digested and then my story might have been a more full story had I been even sometimes speaking to a Black producer in my confessionals or something like that. So yes, you're playing a dual game out there. I heard the N word out there, I had to kind of, as a proud Black man, I had to say, you know what, I'm going to say something to this person but then as someone competing for a million dollars, I also had to truly navigate how I checked that person and said, yo, that's not all right but I still had to be cognizant of the fact that I want to win this game. So yeah, there are so many layers to being a Black player out there and fortunately my first season I was able to get through and win then I came back for the last season that was on season 40 and I experienced what many Black castaways experienced in my second time where I feel like I was portrayed not in the best light and they only used certain parts of me and they kind of watered me down to where I kind of looked like the angry Black guy or the arrogant Black guy so now I've seen both sides of the coin and that's why for me it's like okay, I truly feel like I can speak to this because I've experienced it as a winner, we only have had a few Black winners out of 40 seasons but also I've seen the other side where it's kind of nasty and I'm ready to use my voice and at this time it is a perfect opportunity for CBS and Survivor to harness the movement that's going on in the country and say we're a part of this beautiful movement. Let's talk about that the term that you guys have used a couple times so far in the conversation portrayal and characters. You know a lot of folks look at reality television and think that okay well you know save for editing or you know editing of certain scenes together that what you're seeing is is generic and authentic but I would imagine that's true to a point but can you talk about a little bit of both of you a little bit more about how those portrayals or how those quote-unquote characters are formed and do you have any say in that or is it just you know we're seeing on the back end as every other fan who watches is seeing on the back end. So I can absolutely speak to that my portrayal was not favorable to say the least and I think everybody should recognize that in every reality TV show there is a story editor position so this is a story that they are trying to tell. They do a lot of filming they have a lot of tape in Survivor they actually take 24-7 so they have to edit that down and it is up to a story editor and the producers to put together a coherent and entertaining key there story to present because it's about advertising you present something that people want to watch that means you can sell ads. So really put together your story as far as Survivor they do a lot of background research on you when you go on Survivor you do psychological testing you go through many many interviews they know a lot about you I don't want to say they know everything but really they know you know your background what pushes your buttons and they go out there with that knowledge and then you are in a very high stress situation you have in my case I hadn't drunk water in three days you know and of course I mean in everybody's life you have stress and how you deal with it and in my case they chose to take moments that built towards me and also you know get some manipulation but it's all things that I did but you have to realize like this is a very high stress situation and then they pick and choose what they want to show in my case I was lazy crazy and stupid and that is the story that they showed and I you know sometimes I am lazy and sometimes I do get upset I'm not crazy but that is what they chose to portray in my everyday life I mean I went off to college and started at Sam you at the college of engineering when I was 15 years old I read if you ask anybody about me they'll say I'm a nerd they will not say you know I'm lazy or crazy and I just thought it was poor choice that they just decided to shoehorn me into that and I felt like they did that because there was other characters that they cared more about so I could not be portrayed as having anything to do with my own destiny I was a side character and so it was easier to write off my actions as not being in control at all so yes there's story others they make you a story you have no say in what your character is so it's like you know you're an actor and you sign up and you don't know what your role is you have no say in your role and you just find out along with everybody else and Wendell you say it was a similar experience for you at least on your second turn on the show right well on my first season they they made me they portrayed me as a very social player like my my threat was I was a social I was everyone loved me or something like that but I'm I'm highly educated and intelligent I think that I made some great strategic moves out there but instead they they they made my my ally Dominic they made him seem like he was the super strategic one in the Alliance and I was the social one in the Alliance ultimately we both got to the end and I won so even in my my first season I you know I was still the hero because I was the winner but I'm like man there was so much more that I did that wasn't shown fast forward to this last season season 40 and I did I thought I was the same Wendell that was out there on season 36 ghost island but I was portrayed as this kind of like this arrogant jerk I was all I was I was giving the Kanye at it I'd say and so when some people would say you were giving the Morehouse at it brother yeah I was I was giving the Morehouse at it but in in honesty like there was so much that I did out there I my profession is I build and design custom furniture and so out there I built some of them the best camp that survivor has ever seen two of them I heard I heard it at such I wanted to be at your feet so I could be lounging yeah I made it amazing and I had lots of friends out there and everything and they focused on they focused on me doing things like in the challenge I I got the attention of the the host I'm like hey Jeff watch this or hey Jeff look at me because in my my first season I I won a puzzle but the girl who was a few people over from me finished right after me and she she called him over and he was to her first so despite me finishing first and I didn't I didn't I wasn't trying to argue the fact that I finished first but it was clear to the viewers and everything oh Wendell finished his puzzle first so it fast forward to my next season and I'm like I'm constantly trying to get his attention and stay in his ear but instead the way they kind of portrayed it with me me showboating and things of that nature and then another another thing was there was there were conversations that I had that they that they didn't show of me trying to work with people or me trying to work with one particular cast away and they wouldn't show that conversation but they'd show a conversation later like after she basically said she's not going to work with me so then I said all right well if you want me to vote with you then give me some fire tokens it's basically a currency that that was introduced in the season 40 and I was like all right you can buy my vote but I was I wasn't really she couldn't buy my vote at that point but I was blowing smoke because she showed me she wasn't going to vote with me but anyway we get we later in the day at tribal council where you vote people out the the produce I told her I said hey look I tried to work with you and you didn't and you didn't budge and so essentially what they did was they didn't have the conversation of when we first got to the beach and I was literally trying to work with her they showed me saying hey give me some fire tokens and I'll work with you so they made it look like I was just trying to shake her down and then essentially that was me quote unquote working with her so they can pick and choose what they show and anybody edited for three days which then gets boiled down to a 41 minute episode you can find any anybody any few you know pieces of anything from that person to make them to portray them in a negative light and you can also take other people's conversations about that person and couples that with certain clips and really make them look like someone that they truly aren't and that's that's how I felt I was betrayed it is go ahead sorry so yeah it's a common technique in reality tv called franken so it's sort of like franken sign but editing and that's when they cut clips to make the point that they like to make and we just want to say that it's not an individual story it's not oh they just did this to jetea and window is that they disproportionately do this to african-americans there are many stories like this and we just want to have a proportionally negative and positive views you know they show us as that we're crazy we're lazy we're a workhorse or we're stupid and in our views we're so much more than that we're beauty we're nerve which is strategic masterminds we're heroes we're all of these things and we want to see that on survivor and on tv that's the interesting thing about it so I think that that all of us would agree you know Hollywood for a long time has had a narrative of black folks on screen um hypersexual lazy angry you know there there's a there's a gamut that we recognize is how we've been depicted in you know cinema and television right and so I wonder do you think about that going on tv that that everything I say everything I do is going to try to be shaped through this prism so let me do this to try to counteract that or are you charged with being as authentically you as possible and see where the chips fall you can't you okay I was just gonna say um I've seen people do both and if you want to be successful on survivor as a as a as a black or minority person you gotta you have to like literally watch everything you say and do you have to be very calculated you have to think about every statement that's coming out of your mouth because they um as as as one of only a few out there um you're going to be targeted already and usually early and then the editors need a story for why you're targeted or whatever so you you have to really protect yourself and you it's almost like you have to assume the worst and it's it's it's sad to say that but um the only way to protect yourself would be to assume the worst and literally but then you it's like what kind of a character or of a person are you are you are you just a plain Jane person that can't say anything that can't stick up for himself that can't then you're targeted also so it's it's so tough it's difficult let's so window and I I'll go ahead I'm sorry window and I specifically took a different tack and clearly his was way more successful than mine as he was a winner and I think I was the fourth out on my season and but I think you run the risk like Wendell said that if you are reserved then they ignore you you know they they they cast for drama they love drama out there in my particular season I I felt like I was going down the tubes and there was nothing I could do my whole tribe as a matter of fact was going down the tube and I have a personal philosophy I do not go gentle into that good night and so if I was going it was going down and so you know I gave them something to work with and I thought about that afterward I mean that's not the statement I threw everybody's price in the fire because I was thinking if I'm not eating if I'm going home you ain't eating either nobody is eating if mama is eating and I thought you know oh what did I do afterwards and I thought to myself if a little black girl sees me as a nuclear engineer on TV who cares if I'm throwing a temper tantrum who cares if I'm throwing a temper tantrum because I'm sure I am such a black unicorn on to her or other people that they're just excited to see us I mean that so that's where I ultimately landed but of course so let me ask you what but when we watch it home we're rooting for you like black america is like come on now you know I understand I was like come on now too you know there's a is there that I would imagine that adds to the pressure right because you know the black folks at home watching like don't do that don't you throw that rice absolutely so this and this was I threw the rice after like so I was on a tribe particularly because it was the brain tribe it was the smart people and it's very interesting because I was up to me to do a puzzle for my team and I totally blew it and the pressure was on you can see like me literally melting down there and so yes the pressure is on and I did have to think about it and I thought about the people I saw growing up I didn't care if they did you know I was I'm every time I watched a black tv show and there's a black you know or tv show and there's a black character I'm rooting for them I don't care what they do it's very little they can do to you know change my opinion I can socialize it I can rationalize it you know that sort of thing and you know actually after I threw the rice out I did not go home which was sort of the drama of my season but I mean the reason why my tribe was doing so poorly is because we had all brains and no muscle and you know that kind of put us at a very distinct disadvantage because we didn't have windows building this furniture out there on the island but I mean I do always want to do good but sometimes you just got to be yourself and be true to yourself and for me I was like I was vengeful and that's who I am and I don't let people get over on me so that's what led to that let's talk about black people that I threw the rice out well let's talk about some of the elements of the petition so two of them that stand out you guys are asking for at least a third of contestants on every season to be black indigenous or people of color and for equitable screen time and promotional events for those contestants right I I think everybody of sound mind and and harmonious intent can agree with that what what would you say to the folks that would would suggest what if not enough black folks or people of color watch survivor to make that a profitable venture for us what if we're what if we're aiming at you know we get a certain amount of people on every cast because you know that's reflective of society and we promote the people that the majority of our watching demographic who they want to see well how do you respond to that would you like to go first to tear you want me to start I got it so for the past couple of seasons survivor actually has had you know at least 13 percent african-american and 30 black indigenous and people of color and that's great but I feel like right now survivor is trying to hit a target demographic but what we need to do and I already has told survivor and told media is that we need to do better because there are so many people in America who the only thing they know about black people is what they see on tv right so yeah so what we're trying to do is maybe that you know person who is in college who loves survivor becomes a police officer and what he remembers is how black people are crazy I saw it on survivor and so that is the attitude he goes to work with and so it's really not about just survivor is that this is how people get their information and it is important representation matters and it's it's about a bigger societal good and we're at a point in time where people want their media and they want their tv to be accountable and to have the ethic and the social standards social standards are changing so y'all need to change too Wendell if I may add I think Jatia hit the nail on the head with you know if people are watching and if if survivor speaks to like middle american they don't have many black people then it's it's then survivor has almost a duty or an obligation or the ability to change the narrative and have them see black people a different way um so there's that and they're go ahead oh sorry there's so there's that first of all but then secondly um just because say say survivor says you know what a lot of black people don't watch our demographic is is middle america or wherever it is my question is why why is that your target why not we how about we target other people brought after i once after i won survivor i would speak everywhere i spoke at the the big utility here in philadelphia pico i spoke at churches schools i spoke all over the place as a winner of survivor one of four black winners i was so happy and so excited i i accomplished my dream and i basically wanted to shout it at the mountaintops you know so if survivor but what i noticed was survivor didn't help facilitate me when i'm going to these places as far as i'm giving me promotional materials even releasing clips my own clips of me doing things in challenges and stuff i had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get clips and ultimately they would only give me like a 15 second commercial from one of my um of one of my shows so if they were to help facilitate people that are on the show that go into the community and say hey guys look you can be on survivor and and if they allow us to engage our community a little better or even if they market our community or go through black media outlets or anything like that then they might open up the market a little bit so it's not hey only um a small amount of black people watch survivor so we're only going to put a small black amount of black people on there how about a smaller percentage of black people watch but we're going to change that and make it so all of america can watch and my last brief point is um just because there are say 13 percent of black folks in america um if that's the percentage of black people in america that doesn't mean that we can't create this amazing almost perfectly diverse created world this is a utopia this is not this is not the real world that we're dealing with we're dealing with a created space so why can't we change this space to reflect a beautiful diverse cast as opposed to just saying you know what 13 percent of black folks in america so we'll put one to one to two to three black folks on the on the island no how about we make it truly equitable and fair so i see people out there that look like me that um that i can talk to and when i'm talking to a black castaway it's if we're the only two black castaways then the the other 18 folks are like ah those two black people we got to get them out of there but if we have a good a good mass or a critical mass then it's like you know what i could talk to a black castaway and not feel like i'm ostracizing myself i could talk to a white or latino or any castaways and not feel some type of way so um it's if if survivor takes the initiative or walks side by side with us in in changing this narrative and this portrayal and the casting then they can start affecting the viewership who who watches survivor and also they can change people's opinions about black people or minorities in america you guys also are asking for mental health resources or i shouldn't say asking for demanding mental health resources uh for cast members um as they navigate their experiences on the show and perhaps off um including more black leads or people of color leads in production and a zero tolerance policy towards racism now when do you reference this earlier in the show how prevalent have you heard from other uh participants and even in your own experiences was racism obviously among other cast members but and obviously among the production value but was that was that a significant layer of your experiences on the show um as a as a black person going out on an island with what you know is this cross-section of america you have to believe that there will be people that or there could be people that are prejudiced or don't necessarily like you or you just never know when you're going into this uh situation so automatically you're kind of you know you gotta feel people out just like it's like being black in america i mean we play survivor every day uh when we navigate anything in america so um it's the same thing you you don't know so there's that hurdle but then if you actually when you start to see micro microaggressions or when you start to hear like um like racial slurs then it's like wow these um assumptions that i might have had they're now validated by actual actions and i've heard from numerous castaways that have heard racial slurs out there and they might be the only black man or the only black woman on the island and when there's like a white man that might be one of the favorites of production saying these things then it's hard to get production to even defend you and um yeah so we it's nothing new and it is something that's been happening for the you know since survivor started 20 years ago and um but we understand that survivor tries to stay current with the times and and ahead of the curve even and so it's like all right guys you see what's going on now now is your opportunity to take actual action and and make change to rectify all that's been going on in the last 20 years and it's bad so survivor is has handled issues that they've had with gender with there was a touching incident that happened on season 39 and also in season 33 they had an issue with an lgbtq contestant who was made to reveal that he was trans she was trans he he was transgender um by another contestant so they dealt with those issues um head on and we're just asking them to acknowledge that they have an issue with racism and to address that as well so you handled the gender issue you handled the lgbtq issues handle the race issue because our issues are life and death in the end is there a timetable that would suggest to you or that you are hoping to see these changes by which they would be made and is there a certain level of influence you guys would like to have along with other folks who are organizing the petition that you would like to have in helping the networks to make these kind of changes and that's that's our last question but i think it's the big one how long do you expect this to take and how much how much influence do you want to have in this so we're at a unique time right now because the fall season is not going to have survivor in its lineup so there is an opportunity to make changes right now we have been in contact with cbs and we have a meeting set up where we are going to present the issues that we have in our petition and ask for concrete changes so for me i hope to see changes made before survivor areas again and i would definitely like to be involved i'd like to see them put together if not high you know diversity and inclusion some of the initiatives that we set out in our petition but i also think they should establish a council of black entertainment executives that don't necessarily have to do with the show and also former players so that we can review the actions that they have taken i agree i think um because there's no fall season of survivor and because there is such i guess civil unrest right now they have the they can they can do it now they have the time and they can make the change as far as casting a very diverse cast although you know they've been doing better the last few seasons but continue that but also to see to see some changes behind the camera i think i think they have the time to to make those changes for that whatever season 41 will film in air so and also as far as us being a part of it i echo jeteus sentiment um we will be speaking with cbs next week and uh because we love this show in this game i i i know i'm willing to be hands on with it um in whatever capacity they need me um i i have passed the long names and casting and you know try to get people in front of the producers and whatnot but um yeah i i'd love to be hands on because this is something that i love and that's that's why we're speaking out it's not because we hate this thing that we've been watching for so long it's because we love it and we want um this this thing that we're connected to to to do better uh that's that's how i treat everybody in life if i'm willing to communicate to you that you can do better it means that i care for you and that's the same that's the same with survivor well this has been a fascinating conversation man i please let us know how we can find the petition um and read more information about what you guys are for what you're advocating and how we can find both of you guys on social media to follow up with with what you guys are working for well jared since you asked if you want to sign the petition you can go to my website jpaethp.com or slash t s s o for the sole survivor organization and there you can find links to some of the panels that we've done um we had a panel tribes and tribulations with a group of african-american survivors talking about our experiences and also you can find a link to the petition and for me i guess you could find me on any of my socials uh wendell holland on instagram and twitter and my furniture company is biv unlimited that's b e v e unlimited on instagram you can find us and find the cool stuff that i build and it's really cool stuff um thank you for having us this i i enjoy hearing about what's going on in hdc use i miss tallahassee i went back last fall um so and my grandparents are rattlers so i want to give a shout out to the rattlers gotta do that