 do it from different disciplines yesterday we heard about the buried memory and the architecture of shelters but today we're gonna go on the surface we're gonna talk about the bombings and see and talk about policies regarding the memory that can be implemented and we're gonna do it from different point of view we have Laia Gallego with us she's a pre-doctoral researcher at the Department of Archaeology of the University of Barcelona she has a master's in contemporary history by the University of Barcelona she's a specialized in archaeology of the contemporary past she has been researching on damage done by the bombings during the Civil War she has published Wundic, Wundit buildings and she's also a member of Mamoria Souterrada Association and she's gonna tell about us later that has created a digital platform to recover the memory and the heritage of the bombings of the Civil War Wundit buildings that she claims have to be seen as heritage in our current times. Jordi Guichet is with us today welcome again he is director of a room the European Observatory of Memory he's also associate professor at the University of Barcelona he's got a PhD in history by the Sorbonne University he's a specialist on public policies on memory and also Franco is repression on people who have to exile after the Spanish War and the Second World War he was head of heritage of Memorial Democratic of the Catalan government he has published Republica parseguida Xili y represió a la França de Franco I'm gonna introduce also Cristina Lucas artist hello Cristina she's a well-known artist in Spain she comes from Andalusia she lives in Madrid she has multi-disciplinary work she has worked with drawing and other techniques and at the end of last year the Andalusian contemporary art was organized an exhibition on Cristina's trajectory and all her projects are based on intense research projects with a feminist look questioning the power structures and we would like to talk about an exhibition Manchas in El Silencio that was shown in Madrid where she reflected on memory and violence of bombings on civil population from 1912 to present times an exhibition that we will be able to talk about so Cristina is gonna talk from an art point of view thank you Cristina for being with us and finally Ricard Martinez visual art and researcher professor he created archaeology at the Punda Vista association his research or his method is brief photography it's linked to the perception of present times by analyzing the records from the past so he repeats historical images at the same place and using a methodology that encompasses research Ricard has organized several exhibitions in the public space that maybe you know and that we will be able to discuss we have so very different perspectives in this panel plastic arts photography archaeology we will start with a first intervention by our panelists and then we will open a Q&A session and the audience will be able to participate Laya let's start with you how do you think we have to build these memories of the bombings you talk about these wounded buildings can you tell more about tell us more about these wounded buildings thank you very much first of all for having me to letting me participate in this seminar even be part of this extraordinary panel as Carolina has mentioned I'm gonna present a collective project that we have done from Mamoria Suterrada organization and the project we've been carrying out and the reflections coming from this project can answer the question how working with materials with objects can allow us to work about heritage and also memory so we are at an intersection point between heritage and memory and from our perspective we don't have to separate these two visions but to put them together memory can help us with heritage and heritage can help us with memory why did we start working with the remnants of bombings with what was left from the bombings well contemporary archaeology and mr. Moshenko was telling us yesterday about that so the material things have particular features we have this power of revelation so we can see we can see these things whether we want to see them or not and we can reflect on them so this materiality brings in front of us in front of our eyes these objects and we can see emotion and fear resonance as well this materiality we can see through our body through our senses it's potentially something that we can use to understand contemporary history using our body senses and that can help us understand and mr. Moshenko has extensively published about that and we can think why do we want contemporary archaeology if we already have a contemporary history and we know a lot yes maybe archaeology as we have seen in some examples can give or take us somewhere where the history cannot take us because there are not oral sources or documents so the archaeology can help us fill the gaps but for us acknowledge is important and archaeology help us to see events from a different perspective and this has to do with these democratic idea love archaeology because documentation or documents at a certain times belong to a certain part of the population whereas materiality belongs to all the population as we have seen in the previous presentation the experience of bombings is a memory that could be felt through the bodies through the senses so we thought that working with something material that could be perceived through our body can help to develop empathy in order to build this collective memory and in order to also educate or convey knowledge the traces of bombings or the footprint of bombings is something that we can see in our landscape we can see it in many points of our geography geography we see permanently this sort of materiality these bombings the damage that has been approached in different ways they have been different initiatives concerning these marks and that shows that these marks are important and maybe what we have to do is work on them the Victoria Albert Museum here for instance they have also worked on these marks left by these events here temporary conflicts that have led to collective processes like Peroncelli house the neighbors of the area ask for this heritage to be preserved because more than reconstructing the story what we wanted is to relive the bombings what does it mean to be in a city which is bomb what means that for decades you see the wounds in the buildings the marks of the bombings in the buildings as you have seen in the previous presentation the understanding the military tactics well this has been well studied many people have done research on that however maybe it would be interesting to work on these living experience or what it means experiencing bombings we need to understand that total war is a technique or a way of seeing the world that developed at a time when the enemy had to be destroyed that led to different methodologies to technical progress and through research that was done at the moment we can see that bombing were not useful however they were used and as Jonathan Glover was mentioning in his book about the oral dimension of the 20th century the alienation of violence is very important is a violence that takes place at the distance you don't see the victim you don't see the political affiliation the age and that's an important factor you don't have to look in the eyes to your enemy and you don't face this moral dimension and the experience in the collective memory has led to a series of reflections on trauma that the authors you see mentioned here have been working on and in taking into account all this framework we have proposed this collaborative website it's a project that wants to see the marks in these wounded buildings and that's and we want the population to do that we think that building collective this knowledge can be a way of building this or transforming this into a collective process of memory because the population will appropriate this memory and in this way the memory will be something alive so here we see that this can have an educational consequences and we know also that when memory for memory to be alive has to be a collective memory a memory that the population has we have organized seminars with the students here a student 16 17 years old high school students that work with this remnants with these objects we have documents that we have studied the damages caused by the bombings and see how these marks of the bombings persisted throughout the decades here there are documents were specifying the damages caused by the bombings and the states of the state of the buildings and we want to see what has happened with these buildings during all these decades have the buildings been renovated or not we have also information about court cases and here we have the name also of the victims and we have another source which are the oral sources that tell us about these body aspect I was mentioning remembering the bombings is something that can be done through the body I interview Marie-Angels Ardanoui that unfortunately she died and when I talked to her she was mentioning the sound the the the smell how things were shaking how the body was shaking and she was saying that the bombs were dropping and she thought she was gonna die she had really this feeling that she was gonna die and Martilde Alcázar that that was published in a book and it shows this perception of trauma that you go back home you see that the roof has fallen but your mind cannot understand it and you go up the stairs up to a point where you see that the stairs stop and your home is not there anymore and this is what we want to recover connect with the sources we have in the 21st century through the buildings San Felipe Neri has very well studied and these marks on the wall gives us an extra possibility here in San Felipe Neri is very obvious but we can find similar marks in other buildings that gives us information San Felipe Neri is particularly interesting why it has been preserved because the square was completely renovated in decades ago but at that point it was decided to cap this facade several facades with the marks why and it was done under Franco well according to the sources it was because it has to do it had to do with history and maybe here the task is to build more content and then we have also buildings that are no longer there Plaza Nova where Marie-Angels are the new lift at the time and buildings that are not there anymore or new buildings maybe in a street we say oh this building here it looks odd all this is also part of the memory of our city so by recovering in a collective way these spaces we want to create memory spaces by doing research there are memory elements that have been created in these spaces and that's a way of remembering the bombings all this information is and this can be found in the website here you can see some images of the website but not to go too much into detail what you can see here is a short guide on how to see the marks how to introduce them in the website it can be done through a smartphone and here we have a section participate and a person can give information who can upload photographs and here you can see the participation we have had in our website concerning different heritage link to the bombings these are this is the website to have an idea on the different marks and the information provided and these are elements for the debate thank you thank you thank you laia well now we have a few ideas that we can use for the bait later materialities for everyone the remembrance potential and citizen participation in and projects like the one I presented wouldn't wounded buildings I would be a bit of a bridge between these materiality that you talked about laia and other ways of disseminating recuperating interpreting and remembering I will insist on heritage a lot and probably the professionals here in the room from the municipal sphere and the regional sphere also have some responsibility in this area and we will get into something that is becoming increasingly becoming of interest and I will try to be a bridge also with complete temporary art work and its big capacity for intervention not only in the public space but also with the performing art and in interpretation also I'll try to be bridge with these heterogeneous presentation and then I'll pass the floor over to Christina Locas welcome who will present her project in a way to ideas that have already come up but I wanted to insist on these on how we recover this subsoil the memory of the bombings through shelters which is a topic at hand today and what do we say and what do we not say and what type of intervention also I'll show you some pictures later I could have brought a lot more and later what actions can be conducted I think you talked about signposting and plaques and maybe unified system well I cannot give an analogy but yeah we could have this stopper sign system for the underground not only about shelters but the memory of these shelters and these bombings in the public space from the point of view of the heritage of the city and in our contemporary times and as was said and I'll repeat there was an attempt more than a decade decade ago to have this remnants of past violence be preserved and many municipalities and town councils who are here and represented posters and who take care of this heritage you have to protect it these remnants have to be considered heritage at least for them to be considered as elements of local interest of national interest and so that we can start making decisions I've always said and you know that I always say that we have to know before we act and giving them giving these elements the category of BCIN the cultural good of national interest is no guarantee of anything we have a BCIN in Corbera and seven million euro was required so the actions and I think the amount awarded will be 150,000 euros which is it is good for nothing it doesn't even amount to be amount necessary for the dig so well there's a lot of debate around public policies and without further ado I did bring you some references of how to integrate those shelters in the underground but also in on the surface and a few ideas of how it's been done in other places this is the per course natural park to give significance to this this place this was resistance space and then in small spaces in the underground and shelters they've been able to imagine for example karma said this this the possibility to make management of these recovered spaces easier and cheaper so that they can be profitable from the point of view of public investment these are options that with a simple museum project and a book at if one this is a case of a basement where the Germans got a few members of the resistance underage of these village fair course and they shot them by this wall and in a way the municipal services opened up the shelter and it can be visited for free and in the afternoon the municipal services they they make around they check that everything is okay and there is not much to vandalize in there so and when we have larger spaces such as this huge bunker and this huge shelter that belongs to the Cold War at a different time and it's huge it has three levels underground it belonged to the Ministry of Telecommunications of the DDR and all of the secret services were here and it was built on a mobile concrete base with the whole sound isolation system and they had those macro computers on that on each level and recovering the spaces is not as easy as what we do with small shelters like the shelters we have in Barcelona Catalonia but it also involves a lot of effort these space can only be visited by archaeologists and architects in arranged visits for many years it was used because there were even dining halls in there is it was like a micro city inside and it was used by young people to drink in there and in one of those parties they lead one of the floors on fire so there's very important security hazards these galleries that they're suit from the fire so and that can be toxic so some floors cannot be accessed and they reinvented themselves they have reinterpreted themselves and above that bunker there is a contemporary art space where they talk about the memory of the Cold War and they host shows this was a show to commemorate at 30 years of the fall of the Berlin Wall and this was a show that was done out there in the open and this space is really interesting the gate to access is this part of an apartment building and there are other ways of making these heritage visible this is in granolies they had a lot of debates about how to recover this space that was in a public square and they use more hydraulic creative systems that many of you know and maybe 307 is a space for example where there have been theatre plays performed and it has been used for exhibits and maybe it is a more themed shelter you hear this afternoon about the one in Gracia which is in a different situation it's more austere and more in the original status I guess you know what this is anyone who doesn't know what this is we're amongst experts here anyone who doesn't know what this is well aside from our foreign guests anyone would like to say what this is when we ask the students or when we ask in other conferences many people do not know what this is we reassess this monument a few years ago to make it more visible here we have responsibles from the municipality and I'm not saying that this project was better or worse but we need to rethink the visibility of the bombing commemorative monuments and so as to integrate them in the network of the old and new shelters and maybe integrate this monument in a more expressive and visual manner I don't have the pictures because together with Nuri Ricard and some master students of Bozart we conducted this project I don't have the pictures but the idea was to dignify the area in front of the Coliseum former theater horizontally and remembering what was on in active and passive defense and we dignified the space with a surface action we for example took all of the motorbikes away from this area and you know that to dignify is also very important and I mean it's a bit of a criticism on art and public space and other examples and tamargaridos montos in la riga did on many things in terms of management there is municipal responsibility and thanks to this municipal responsibility many of the shelters still exist and can be visited and one of these examples maybe so as not to talk always about Barcelona is agramon and what's interesting here and this will lead us to talking about contemporary art and other actions was the recovery of these or the rehabilitation of these shelter one of the few under a Romanic church this one is indeed cultural good of national interest the air raid shelter was built below the church agramon was bombed in 70% of this surface they said with military targets but honestly they weren't just sweets and factories there so it couldn't be very strategic for the war and here they have plaques with historic and explanations very brief ones and the priests and the religious community collaborated in these rehabilitation the shelter can still be visited is one of the most visited shelters outside of Barcelona and as you know it can be visited at 1 p.m. now they hold the mass at 12 they're like 30 people for the mass and then afterwards at 1 p.m. there's always a long line of people wanting to access the the shelter the director there is not very happy about all this and I'm linking these to another space another memory which is very much related to contemporary art and a different view of the bombings the guinobar foundation which is right next to the church and if you've never been there you should go and here we have for example these these odd piece which is like a banana to the guinobar lives in Barcelona he's a contemporary artist and he escaped the bombings in Barcelona and one to a ground the city of his family and he went to a ground to take shelter but he could have never imagined that agromoon would be 70% destroyed by the bombs and he ended up going to one of those cabins in the in the field that sometimes farmers use to store things and one of those huts and his entire work revolves around these huts and burned wood and well he had no idea he would become one of the key contemporary artists of our time in our country and these huts evokes these bombings that to place nearby and these link of the foundation with the shelter is very interesting and it's a small example of local action and these transformative capacity and this leads us to talking also about other actions a lot more contemporary in this case in collaboration with the Barcelona Town Council this is Alborna Center the memory center of Alborna in Barcelona they held this exhibit there was another one by Tavia Dominic which was a traveling exhibition all over Italy and this one was a lot more artistic because it also showed not the the discovery because we had already many of these drawings but well it showed exhibited a drawings from children of Barcelona between public and private foundations many of these drawings were collected and they were exhibited in this more or less creative manner to stress the the strength of these children who never knew they would leave a legacy and these collections part of this collection had remained in Vic for a project of the University of Vic and it is now again available to everyone in the municipal archives of Barcelona one part came out of here one part came from a private collection in the United States bought by the Quakers and the Quakers and a Catalan official not about all of these drawings and this is a very interesting story because the first exhibit took place in 1937 in the United States because the Republic needed some propaganda and they created a narrative not so much historic narrative about the bombs and the bombings but a reflection on these these drawings and these creations through these pictures we've talked about San Felipe Neri and this is why I bring this work by Fernando Pratt you talked about materiality I guess you know this work he textured the materiality of San Felipe Neri and he showed this texture with his piece I don't know if it remained in the in the property of the town council oh it is in the hands of the move but the museum the history Museum of Barcelona right so congratulations that you kept it so in the end these takes us and now I'll finish now to a reflection of a about Kino Bart as an adult in a gramund he paid how much to his colleague Pablo Picasso and the Guernica bombing and he created these piece where international conflicts are very relevant international and local conflicts are very important in his work and I guess you know these this work this this porch which is kept up the history Museum of Barcelona and he told us about its meaning and in the back of this porch or this arcade he wrote about many of the conflicts and the perplexity of the present time and this is a gateway from the past to the future the gateway of memory and there you can see a list of conflicts that he dated and documented artistically of course with this piece and of course with the difference because you said that art can be healing of these traumas and I think contemporary art is as I said before one of the things that we need to integrate in this music music education processes in those of us who work more in a more in this interdisciplinary fashion between architecture and museums and I encourage you to be a part of what Ramon Aramad said this this task force that we have together with Gran Ries and Garnica and this year will work between Gran Ries and Barcelona and this in this task force you're all very welcome those of you who from archaeology civil society associations work on this concept and obviously on contemporary art we will continue to work on contemporary art and in a way and I'll finish with this well and Christina will also present a piece the idea of which is to document and give dates and names about these traumas and these international bombings and that will be all thank you very much and I'll pass the floor over to you thank you Jordi all for all these examples and now we're going to the contemporary art world Christina you're gonna tell us about an installation El Rayo que no César I was telling you that she opened an exhibition in Madrid and one of the most important works was this one this installation El Rayo que no César and she's gonna tell us more about this installation thank you very much thank you for inviting me I've been hearing very interesting things and I'm gonna tell you about a never-ending project unfortunately so I'm gonna start telling you that I was invited to Victoria to commemorate the 75th anniversary of Guernica Guernica is this iconic painting we know a lot about the painting and about Picasso and the exhibition universal exhibition in Paris in 36 and where he meant it created or it became a symbol in a way that in other words in the bombing when the war was declared the mural of Guernica and here calling Powell decided to give a speech behind or in front of this mural because it associated with the despair of the victims so everyone has a place in this painting this feeling of despair is reflected here and the whole story how it was taken away from MoMA and how this was the beginning of democracy for Spain and in the 70s all Spanish homes had a replica of Guernica and it's inside us and for this anniversary of Guernica I didn't know exactly what to do however when you start reading it's the biggest bombing in history the one of Guernica that's not true is the first bombing on civil population it's not true and I think that this when talking about this painting I don't know there has been this idea of getting a political angle and I come from Andalusia and I knew that about the bombings on civilians trying to escape Malaga and other Andalusian cities I knew it was brutal many people I knew about that I knew that in Durango a few days before Guernica had been bombed Barcelona had suffered terrible bombing so many bombings had taken place the first bombing during the civil war on civilians happened in the Republican side and in 10 years they wanted to bomb military barrack but instead of that civilian neighborhood was bombed these were collateral victims but the fact is that they were bombing so I wanted to document bombings on civil population during the civil war three years of war let's do research on both sides because dying because of a bomb being a victim without protection being the victim of technology that's brutality regardless the side you're on so then during the Spanish civil war and as it has been mentioned this morning as Antonio said sorry Ramon mentioned there was the war between China and Japan and there were bombings in Manchuria with lots of civil victims I didn't know what to do with this information when studying the Spanish civil war there were many bombings by Spain in the rift area in northern Africa and permanently there were the bombings of by Italians in Abyssinia so I decided that the Spanish civil war was narrow to talk about bombing civilians when if bombing civilians means bombing civilians everywhere and this started when aviation started not that long ago so we have the Portuguese Santos demon and right more or less at the same time managed to fly aircraft and thanks to this formula you see on the screen that was at the beginning of the 20th century 1903 or maybe end of 19th century this lift formula if we implemented to something heavier than air well and it's based on the third law of Newton and the fluid studies of Bernoulli and this magical dream of being able to fly became a reality at the beginning of the 20th century this is the formula the whole formula what explains that flying is possible the first bombing on civil population happened during the war between Italy and Turkey starting in 1911 the newspapers talk about a bombing with civil casualties because they were going to inspect the land someone who has a grenade in his hands and through the grenade in 1912 there are already recordings of civil death due to bombings so I thought it was they thought it was a good idea and started the air bombings at that time and it has never stopped during the first world war there were many air bombings during the two main wars there were also bombings the Spanish Civil War then we have the Avicenia war many conflicts with the colonies that are called colonial control not even colonial war because you go there you bomb you don't have to take troops there it's so fast it's so technological that it's it's the super efficiency what gives many and to this efficiency this book was published in 2003 and it has an explanation almost a daily explanation of what happened during the Spanish Civil War and with a particular focus on Catalonia because the historians who wrote it are Catalan I don't know if you know them I probably they are close friends of yours I didn't know them but a curator who was helping me in the exhibition told me and he's Cuban ah spain in flames wow that's quite a thing and he told me that that in Cuba that was a cocktail that it's done with terry and cider that was a drink in Cuba spain in flames and and they put some cherries also and people drank this so when we did the opening of the exhibition we serve that drink so I started to get all the data starting with this book and then I talked to other people someone has mentioned that the Basque Country government has a big archive with documents for all the with all the documents I consulted these documents I'm the government of Aragon as well I think that the Spanish Civil War is well documented in this project we have a database but not all wars are well documented this is why this is an ongoing project because I pretend to have all the information concerning bombings on civil population all the data are included in the database with different research groups and in the database we can see who has introduced the data the data we have several data concerning famous bombings because publicity and advertisement plays a role it's a database we can go over the data and if they are false data can be taken away and here during the Second World War there were bombings all over the world the planet here you can see the project on the left the screen we have the name of the war who bombards whom who is bombarded whom the name of the city how many civil casualties in the center screen we have the map with the bombarded city that stays here it doesn't go away and on the right hand side we have the image of the disaster that the bombing creates and here we have the date in the lower part of the screen how do we manage the data people who work in the project volunteers or groups or universities introduce the data that can be seen in the database and we have also the reference of people books websites institutions taking part because here we have different points of view it's a project that does not have a specific intention we want to gather data to try to prove events so technology changes and we have four chapters the first one is when the aviation started till the end of the Second World War 1945 everything is black and white with a low-level technology not sophisticated technology second chapter is the Cold War till the fall of the Berlin Wall so better technology here we have color pictures weapons became more sophisticated it would be the statics of the third chapter begins with the falling of the Berlin Wall till the pandemic big even wars and bombings stopped when the pandemic started it has these different static blue kind of television Google maps look and the technology here is much more for sophisticated and the fourth chapter with a different look with different photographers and a more advanced technology what happens with images the images are always the same images of destruction houses being destroyed cities destroyed people fleeing refugees it's a permanent deja vu there are no changes and the images of weapons of technology this techno war changes these images change a lot because we go from artifacts that fail when achieving their goals to something that looks like a video game the words right now look like a video game in fact one of the images I have shown you was when this project was shown in the manifesto of Palermo in 2018 in Palermo there are a huge antennas and without them drones cannot be directed to bomb Middle East in the Middle East region so everything is connected this exhibition is when travel to Japan in in one upon metro station underground a station and people took shelter there so it was quite impressive to see the exhibition in a place where Japanese people used to go to take shelter and people spend hours and hours looking at the exit visiting the exhibition I'm gonna show you a little bit part of video because it's everything is in silent all the references all the people that have taken part in the project books institutions everything is well documented in the database but also in the exhibition this has to be part of the exhibition because there is always that comes and say my town was bomb do you know do you have it in your project well if you have it you show it to that person and if you don't have the information you include the information in the project the project is an open one I think now it's been shown in Arnie Museum in the Netherlands and they show every year this exhibition to remember the Arnie bombing this is the Spanish Civil War we need the two screens that would go on the side but to show you how it works we have the city the bombing we when a civilian dies there is one small explosion and where many people die the explosions are more powerful and the data are on the screen on the left and the images on the in the screen on the right it's to have a visual idea of what happened because artists produced images this is what I think and trying to understand something that it's difficult to understand well I think that we can do it by using technology with the help of data and putting together technology and data and you can see on the lower part what Spain did to the reef that terrible I remember that they told me Christina but we cannot do this project because we cannot read what's in the screen I saw it and I said yeah well maybe you we cannot read it but we can feel it this is a stain in the north of Africa maybe you cannot read it but you can feel what happened so we decided to leave it like that the visitor can have an idea of what's happening here we zoom out because the wars in other parts of the world star what you can see in the upper part is the first world war then the Basque country was heavily bombed during the Spanish war Madrid, Catalonia, the Valencia region were heavily bombed and visually we can understand there would be also other ways of understanding it it's but what we see here is very powerful there are data that can be made visible in this way and otherwise it would be more difficult to make them visible I was mentioning Arnhem and the museum in the Netherlands they have this sort of ritual of showing this project every year and contributing to the project and showing it to students and trying or asking the students to feed the project throughout the project you see how the project started starts in 1912 people seeing it ah maybe I was born when this war happened or I people empathize and when I was doing the project this would happen to me once the project has as the project unfolds because we have some words that are not well documented and when we show the project we enrich the project our idea is that this database can be open as a sort of Wikipedia for people to contribute however we are still at the stage a little bit like the first maps that were done you know we're constructing where the first maps that the navigation or the first charts that were navigation charts were done I think that we are at that stage this project needs to evolve we have the structure and we can feed data and information to the project so we zoom out or we zoom in because things are happening in other places the video last seven hours so it's difficult to see the video associated with the project the seven hours and no one can stay for seven hours so what I decided to do in the end is to make a sort of summary here you can see images where you can see the wounds the scars very harsh words we can see here this tissue this fabric here this is an embroidery with light fabric so translate this information into this embroidery here we have these stains that we know how to read them this is a selection it's another way of seeing data thank you pristina congratulations on the project which is a live project and we can go back to that later but now on to regard presentation regard Cristina connects past bombings with present bombings and you with your work connect past and present and re photography so tell us I'll hear me I'll speak close to the microphone because I tend to speak in a quiet voice thank Cristina thank you a roam Dorothy for inviting me it is an honor to share a panel with you and a prison with all of you we must have done something if we're all here today in this prison I'll start with this quote that I will read to help the interpretation team sometimes different cities take place on the same soil and under the same name and they are born and they die without having met one another in communicable this is something that it'll go to abroad about invisible cities we are here to establish contact between these in communicated cities and as a part of this big project I will talk about my work I look for the footprint not so much of the attacks but the pictures documenting the raids I will start talking about one of my first projects the material with which you fill out a crater in 2006 it was a project that integrated the archive as well because it was about documenting compiling the pictures that recorded the attacks suffered in Boston only doing the civil war and I looked for those pictures in Barcelona in the same place where the events the attacks have taken place in that way the search itself was part of the project because my premise was that those memories had always been here in the place where they had taken place even during the dictatorship they had always been available and maybe this talked about the opportunity maybe the political opportunity of recovering them or not this work was done in 2006 when an entire generation of the grandchildren of the people who had done and suffered the war were active and we had enough distance but enough proximity so as to go back to this fact and recover them so I think this is a topic for the debate as well and I'll tell you about these pictures I work with our genetic material this is as light I compiled the pictures and I went to the places for example when I took this picture this was Torres Street in Gracia and today it is called Plaza del Cato Pérez and on one of the windows you could still see a scar the building has been remodeled rehabilitated and it's hidden now this car of the first bombing bombing in Barcelona 14th February Valentine's Day in 1937 this is a picture by my favorite author an identified author quite a lot of production this unidentified author you can see the overlapping it's quite simple and when you continue searching you find new new materials and I incorporate them this is also my favorite author but also pictures by Austí Santellas Campania all of them in the same place document in the same attack sometimes it's not necessary for you as a new author to go there and take a new picture sometimes it is enough to connect those pictures like Italo Calvino said connecting the cities this is 14th March 1937 after the first air raid in the city this was Creudos Mules Street and again my favorite author unidentified author here this picture was by Austí Santellas another unidentified author this time working for the Propaganda Commission Santellas unidentified author Pérez de Rosas was a photographer here and Santellas again so at least three photographers were in the same place in the same balcony doing their job it also talked to us about a different thing the point of view we must think that back then photography had gotten rid of the laboratory you did not need a whole laboratory carrying a whole laboratory with you and you no longer needed a tripod photographers could take a picture from whenever and however but they all chose the same place for this one another piece that I started on in authentic material and continuing with digital and I had the old picture which was simple and then I started taking pictures of the clouds in this very place and I make this collage in which I incorporated other clouds more distant which where the clouds of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombs so it talks to us also about how for example in the Spanish war in one night three planes were the terror of one city and later on one single plane was able to destroy an entire city and this was granules this picture by Ramón Parera engineer of the passive defense board and it was shot at a very special time while he was well I was shooting the picture there was an homage the victims being paid at the cemetery this is why there's a difference in the lighting there are more examples but in 2008 thanks to the Democratic Memorial I was able to make my first exhibit I selected five of the pictures and blew them up in real size to realize and I placed them in the location where they were taking taken this is Jardines de la Gracia and the installation had many variables I for example look at the symbolic use of the landscape and they were somewhat monumental these pictures become large and then become monumental they have the solidity of a monument they are sculptures something which is in two dimensions can talk to the space around it as a sculpture and there was also a narrative this picture for example by Robert Kappa was taken mid January 1939 a few days before the Franco army entered the city and the war ended and these people here they were survivors of the war they still had a lot of the dictatorship ahead of them but they survived a war in the other end of the city in La Barceloneta this picture belongs to the first air raid May 1937 in the beginning of the war and many of the people represented here would die during the war and in that case the treatment as a sculpture is different the old picture contains the landscape around it Rambla such a touristy spot with a picture by Ramon Parera propaganda picture people in uniforms keeping private goods safe after an attack and this is no Photoshop this is the installation of the actual physical installation size matters and here I can send myself with other inputs such as for example the perspective of the body and the way to look at the picture the picture should be large enough so that you have to look at it with your whole body not just with your eyes you need to move towards the place and you watch with your entire body and at the same time it is claiming a critical perspective the picture reveals information that was always there but wouldn't come to light until we take a look at the picture in place and this gives thinking food for thought to the observer and it makes the observer think of their own perspective which is much more than a topographical spot it's an ideological spot as well where are we looking at these pictures from the same picture that a friend of mine Tavi Moulet also photographer took a picture from from his car you can take a look you can you can see pictures from many perspectives and also the Google Maps picture of this picture it was it's interesting to think that this was an ephemeris installation with a live a few months and the Google car gave it a longer life of the virtual this piece has two side had two sides on the other side the Google car also took a picture of it and this is the picture we saw at the beginning by Robert Kappa also photographed by the Google car and lately I've been working I've been working on the contemporary perception of those pictures the silver bullet spala's a platter project which started as a teaching project and is now becoming a book an essay on the uses of photography during the civil war a small example from the umbral magazine published in valentia in Barcelona with this magnificent cover for example with two pictures and possibly a collage by Kathy Orna Austro Hungarian photographer she was a photographer but also graphic editor a very important role the person who edits the the piece of news who does the DTP and there were also details of reality that she took pictures on to incorporate them into her photo montages this is Plaza Nova which has come up a few times over this couple of days Kathy Orna took a couple of pictures or maybe more here and subsequently this photo montage which was entitled the Spanish woman before the revolution for a few months the civil war was a social revolution and the memory of that has disappeared not so much because of the Franco regime that fell on top of it but also because of this Stalinist repression on May 37 and again here Corrivia street on the left-hand side which disappeared during the bombings or after the bombings carmas at yesterday that a conflict marks a city and there are consequences of the word that we need to attach a meaning to and this is on this sovereign gaze this this bodily gaze that I mentioned looking with your entire body and this is an exhibit I did in our piece of work editing Tarragona 13 dark flags that it's a bandera's focus to commemorate the end of the dictatorship and it's this one the pictures in this installation show the bombings in Tarragona during the Spanish civil war the pictures were taken by the attackers after dropping the bombs so it is a city at the time in which it was being destroyed by their future rulers and the authors it was they were taken by the authors of the attacks every once in a while we could see a plane in the sky with which would remind us of the conditions in which these pictures were taken the pictures had been taken from above far above but these pictures on these flag poles asked the viewers to again use their entire body to look up and take a look at the pictures and to think of the fragile victims of these metallic attacks when the victorious attackers would become the rulers of the beaten state and these pictures were used as flags as dark flags on these metallic posts to speak of the exercise of power these banners flags were present collectives and from my point of view I think we need to observe them all in a critical light before deciding whether we want for a flag to represent us these flags were based on pictures such as this one Raman talked about these pictures taken by the Italians while they were bombing and they were learning how to bomb the pictures these authentic pictures are solid objects and they have two sites they were revealing both of them here for example we can recognize the perpetrators that Raman talked about before and this is there's information about the plane they Savoy 79 a model developed in between wars in those sporting races the Schneider Cup for example and we can now see the sinister meaning of those sporting competitions and then at the bottom we can also see the names of the person so to tenente but as Theo maybe Raman knows his names and even the photographer observing photographer Maury or Manui or something like that we don't know exactly these are the perpetrators in the end it is an installation that encouraged viewers to look a flag in the eye and I invite you to to look a flag in the eye for a few moments to hold its gaze and that would be enough for now and almost I'm almost done just allow me to tell you a personal story which links these projects with my family story and this may explain why I do this and this comes from the project that I told you about at the beginning the material with which you fill out a crater back then my mom who started showing the signs of Alzheimer's lived at home with me and I showed her pictures and I showed her this picture for example taking at San Felipe Neri this is back on white and you see the girls from the Antonio Solis school who were in this shelter it was not an air raid shelter it was a shelter for refugee children and my mom told me that she had had bows like the ones these girls were this white taffeta bows and well for years now Alzheimer has invaded her entire body and soul and I went through boxes and I found a picture of her with this taffeta white bow she was a refugee child her parents sent her to Taberno our village in Nalmeria close to Murcia they sent her there to take her away from the hunger and mainly away from the bombings she went by boat and when she told me about it I got the shudders because it was a boat that was traveling through waters that were infested with Italian submarines and she also told me and this is interesting that the family who she was shipped to they got the money for the ticket so she was not only a refugee but she was also a stowaway she never paid the ticket the relatives got the money from the ticket and she was photographed in this place twice by the same photographer and she told me that for those years those years she spent there during the war in the post-war these were the happiest years of her life childhood is a happy time but these happy days were darkened by the sound that she imagined was an an air raid siren my great-grandmother got her on a donkey and took her to a townhouse and showed her how the woman there told the family that lunch was ready by blowing a horn like these horns from the Iron Age that David Gertian robert archaeologist shared in social media recently and that was discovered in town job Madalcana in 2001 so that's the horn that she heard and mistook for an air raid siren and in the same box where I found the pictures I found another object I apologize baby it was the lost pendant from broken necklace but the proximity with the pictures it was found with makes me think that this small mollusk was for Anita for my mom the memory of the day when she believed that there would be no more bombs and now I am indeed Tom thank you very much thank you Rika thanks for sharing your family story thanks to the four of our panelists I think that we have heard many examples on how we can recover the memory from the bombings and it was the aim of this panel to connect different disciplines I would like to ask you if you believe that the different disciplines are connective enough in order to recover this memory or if we can do more because from art from history from archaeology maybe we can do more in order to recover to build this memory I don't know Christina if I was talking about this connection between disciplines when it comes to create memory and in fact you have collaborated and with all this gathering of information there has been a teamwork researching bombings it's teamwork refugees from Syria have been documenting the bombings in Syria or researchers from Chinese universities to tell us about the bombings the Japanese bombings on China but we were told no way of documenting the bombings of the Chinese were the Chinese wanted to document the bombings done on China but not the other way around so we were talking with the University of the Philippines because they want to tell about the damage being done to them so telling these stories cannot be done from a single point of view because otherwise we would always be on the side of the propaganda so we have to constantly be checking where this information comes from to put them all together so Jordi this is interesting what we remember what we don't what we memorialize and what we don't and yeah and what I say the first day we're never the responsible ones or the guilty ones it's always the other one but at the end of the day it's always a decision what we remember and what we don't and when we have to decide on what we act what we do what we do is a political it's a personal decision and we were talking about how to organize or how we manage all these spaces all these memories ways that maybe have to be more spontaneous more creative but at the same time they need to be organized all these ways we must make decisions on how to manage and this is a responsibility of the different authorities the researchers the artists will collaborate with the administration with the authorities it's something that might seem obvious but sometimes authorities don't work this way and memory sometimes is not the priority for public policies and let's see what happens here in Catalonia let's see how much we will be able to invest in order to have the spaces finally here in Catalonia spaces that can be visited where our students can go and even tourists why not for to have these spaces you have mentioned several examples and I would like to ask our audience what do you think about creativity the role of art in the memorializations of bombings I don't know if the audience have has questions about the presentations about install like Cristina's installations or Ricard project or about what Jordi Olaya have mentioned no no questions I see Karma Miró here and the footprints of the war in the cities of Barcelona it says that giving value to all these structures contributes to peace up to now it seemed that the studying the war would lead to more violence but the perception has changed how we manage these culture of peace in your projects like for instance these marks in the buildings what's the meaning for the new generations our unfortunately I was in I couldn't attend yesterday's session but I fully agree with what you have mentioned we've been working in contemporary archaeology in other areas and we know that there are lots of different sensibilities we want to know more about war and people from different fields get together however we got more interested by the everyday life people's life that regardless of the political position how they experience the war and we think that this memory this heritage can become an educational tool at the beginning for us it was a popular as citizens too but then we have seen that it has an educational potential and this is why we have been organizing seminars and we can see that the if public policies do not reach students or the population well it's difficult for the citizens or the students to appropriate these public policies but we have seen that when the students have access to documents when they see the material when they see all this contact content they learn in a different role in a different way and they adopt a different role and I know that this is difficult to manage how we manage and preserve heritage it's a difficult heritage when it comes to preservation to preserve it I think having knowledge or having these senses of the different marks can help us and can help us to make decisions whether we want to preserve it or not yeah I think that if we appropriate this if we appropriate appropriate this legacy this heritage would be way also of involving the whole citizens yeah I think the connection is something automatic when we talk about photography something universally something democratic and I think that it calls for the citizens participation when I set up an installation I like to stay there physically and hear the citizens comments what do they say when they see picture and they compare the image with the surrounding area they talk about the point of view and they they talk about the picture and I have mentioned that before I think that people have a critical view and and they look the picture with the whole body and it's our task the artist tax tasks to provide more tools like this one for citizens to participate and you've done that with your installation Christina El Rayo Ken of this how did the audience reacted I think that people feel empathy they are shocked at the beginning because the the word that hurts the most is your war but then you feel empathic with other words worse and with the pain of other people and being aware of how many words existed that we didn't know about and how for instance the contemporary war that happened in during our lifetime that sometimes we see on television but oftentimes we don't so these permanent words that exist in the world and people feel empathy when I presented for the first time the project in Madrid in Alcala 33 that was the news that the Basque fire fighter had refused to let go a load of some fuel that had to go to the Yemen war and the fire fighter said no no because this is going to go to Yemen no and the Spanish government had weapon industry and that gives income generates income so here there are some contentious issues so people start thinking when they visit the exhibition we have one minute left karma I think you want to say something yeah thank you for mention a sentence that I wrote years ago and I still think the same and I think it's been proven with today's intervention I like to work or to be part of a team because I don't think that we can achieve things individually and we have to work in a multi-disciplinary way and I think that regards work have reached the citizens and I have visited his installations and I have looked at them from different point of view liar I have had the opportunity to work with her I think these are little drops in the ocean but that will really help us and we have to explain explain we have to talk about the war in order to be able to talk about peace we have to talk about bombings to talk about social organization if we go to a higher school probably many students don't know that Barcelona was bomb or Guernica was bomb and I'm mentioning Guernica because we have Picasso's painting or maybe they don't know who Franco was and this is difficult to accept because we have made a big chunk of our history to disappear and it has happened in Europe too and Jordi mentioned that too we all say oh we've done very well but we don't want to talk about our past here what memory do we recover the ones that revolted or the others I think that we have to recover all memories because they are interconnected and the only way of doing is working in teams and I would like to thank the artists because if we have been able to organize the seminar is because Anna Sanchez has contributed Ricard has been working for many years I didn't know about the Cristina's work but I think this is really important teamwork and talk to new generations education is important because if we don't talk to new generations we will be distorting history thank you thank you for all your work it's been a pleasure to be part of this panel last question I would like to say something that has to do with witness I gather when I was doing my research concerning the approach of your presentations and I think that we should understand that we all have an emotional relationship with the events that happened and after a while we can look in hindsight to try to understand what happened but I think that how we experience with our body that's very important now when we go into several spaces I think that we have to understand that sometimes it's difficult to understand what these people experience people who suffered the war and us for a matter of space and time for us is difficult to experience so what I try to say is that when in I interview karma one of the first women I interviewed that suffered the war she told me that she was six seven years old during the war and she said that once the war was over the city went back to certain normality but when she hear a plane she had to stop and think that the plane was not gonna bomb the city now we hear that a plane flying and for us it's a means of transportation but we don't think that we're gonna be bomb or when we travel by subway well for us it's a means of transportation for them going on the ground going into a shelter was going into unknown place another woman I could talk to she was telling me that they didn't know if the shelter was solid enough because it was underground so they didn't know if they were gonna die because the shelter would collapse so I think that this body experience can help us when we try to understand the war even to understand the reality of present time war yeah it's what Laia you were saying to to have this body experience thanks to all of our panelists I hope you will have a fruitful second session today after lunch and thanks to the organizer for having organized the seminar which give us many different points of view thank you