 So you don't support animal abuse? No, I don't. But you aren't vegan? I'm not vegan. So how does that work? Well, I don't know. How can you enjoy meat? Do you think that means that animals aren't abused for meat? Well, I don't think so, generally. Have you seen a slaughterhouse before? Yes, I have slaughtered a ram before. You've slaughtered a sheep before, like a ram. And you don't think that that's abuse to cut someone's head off? No, they're animals. It's not abuse. They're meant to be eaten. So if they're meant to be killed and eaten, it's not abuse? It's not. So what do you define as abuse? Well, what do you think abuse is? If it was a human, put it in the human context. What's abuse? In the human context, that's different. Humans have got a soul. They've got ways to think about things. Animals don't? Animals don't have a soul. Do you have evidence for that, or are you just going to declare it? It's an assumption, really. It's an assumption, yeah. But do you think animals can feel pain and suffer? Oh, sure, definitely. So do you think it's moral to put them through pain and suffering if we don't have to? Well, if we don't have to, no. I mean, even if they didn't suffer, let's just say they were raised without suffering, when we shoot them in the head and cut their throat open, would you not consider that abuse? Well, isn't that why they've got a better way of killing them in a slaughterhouse, not just by cutting them? Maybe electrify them or something? I don't know. Do you know what exploitation is? Exploitation. Taking advantage. So using someone, like, taking their rights away? Do you think that's okay? It's not, basically. Do you think exploitation is abuse? In a way, yes. So what you're trying to kind of put that into... The animal context? Animal context, that's kind of different. Because... You keep it on a human context, yes. It makes more sense. You don't think animals can be exploited? Well, I mean, say people that kills them just for the fun of it. Say, poaching, killing them for medicines and thinking that an elephant is a cure for something. So you'd say that's an unnecessary reason. That's not an unnecessary reason. So would you say eating meat's a necessary reason? It is a necessary reason. So you can't live without eating animals? Well, I don't think I can. You don't think you can? You're staring at someone who hasn't eaten animals for five years. Well, I don't think I can. Do I look malnourished? Well, you don't. I mean, it's a matter of choice, really, to be honest. It is a choice. It's a choice to exploit animals, isn't it? It's a choice as to what you eat and what you like. I love meat. But that doesn't tell me whether or not it's animal abuse. Well, I wouldn't say it is, really, to be honest. I'll be honest. What do you mean? Say that again? I don't think it is. If it's not just about killing them randomly or just shooting them just for the sake of it. I mean, it's for a purpose. To be eaten. Okay, so if I was going to kill and eat a dog, that wouldn't be a dog abuse? That would be a lot of disgust to kill a dog for food. That's your cultural indoctrination. Dogs aren't food, are they? No. What about pigs? You eat pigs? Well, I don't. Okay. You don't eat them? No, I don't. Do you think gas-tambering pigs is abuse? Gas chamber. A third of all pigs in the UK are gas chambered? Well, that's something else. That's an abuse. That's abuse? Yes. But this is one of the most humane methods for stunning pigs? Well, I don't think that's right, to be honest. You don't think this is right? Well, I don't eat pigs. You don't eat pigs, but we can talk about the other animals that you eat. Oh, no, no, no. This is suffering. This is what... You don't take someone's life like this. You don't kill them like this. This is real pain, really. The gas chambering them? They said it was humane. This is really torture. This is torturing them to death. The industry told us this was humane? No, it's not. But they told us it was? Well, I mean, that's their classification. It doesn't have to make sense to everyone. It doesn't make sense to me to kill animals like this. Do you think they lied to us when they told us it was humane? That's a lie. That's a big lie. Okay, what about... Let's just go through the animals, see which ones you eat. Which ones do you eat? Dairy. What about cheese? Yeah, I do eat cheese. Do you know the process for milk? Yeah. What's the process? Vlog those things in. Do you think milk just comes out of a cow without them having to do anything? I think, first of all, these ones are. They're calves. Why would they be killing calves? Why would they be killing little cows? Like young cows? It's not justification for that. They're not even grown enough to be killed. Well, you know the dairy industry, those cows have to be pregnant to produce milk. You know that, right? Yes. So what happens to their babies? They allow them to grow normally. Maybe the females, because they can produce milk. So what happens to the milk? They can't produce milk for the industry. So they kill them off? They dispose of them a short time later. They kill them, or they might raise them for a little while, kill them a little bit older, or they might raise them for beef. Yeah, raise them for beef. So you're happy with them being raised? They should go through the normal process. So what would you consider a young cow? They've got a lifespan of 25 years? 10 years old should still be a calf. They're killed around 2 years old, so they're still really young. Oh my God, that's disgusting. That's horrible. That's not nice. I'm just trying to get to a point where you're like, I want to know why you think paying for these industries to exist isn't animal abuse. I just want to know why you think that. Well, if I think about the way I love my own meat, that's something different, right? I expect them to go through the normal process, grow the normal way. What's the normal way? Please tell me. You're saying normal and okay and grow normally, not kill them at 2 years old. They're pointless. What's the use if they kill them at 2 years old? They get them to their full size and they kill them, because if they keep them around any longer, they have to pay for their food. They have to kill them and make profit from them. Yeah, I mean if they killed after 20 years for us to eat, then that's fine. As long as they're a certain age, we can kill them and that makes it moral. Well, I mean, I wouldn't say everything I'm saying is justified, but I love meat and I love eating it. I don't even think I can stop eating it. I used to eat meat. Do you think I used to eat it? Well, I eat meat every day. So did I. Yeah, so... But I saw this and I didn't think it was right, and I don't like to be... I don't like to lie to myself. We can always change the process. We can always talk about the process that this has been done. So where do you get your meat from? From the... The shop. From the shop of the witches. You follow those animals to the slaughterhouse? No. No, not in this country. So it's kind of weird in this country where you don't even know how they've been killed. But where I come from, then you know how. Where do you come from? Originally from Nigeria. Nigeria. And the animals are killed out on the street there and people, they see that process. You see that process? Why do you think they hide it from the public here? Because they know what they're doing is not right. Really. That's it. That's the reason. Because if they've been gassed, then that's making no sense to me, to be honest. What about hacked across the throat? Does that make more sense to you? Still not good. When's the first time you've seen an animal be slaughtered? Oh, wow. When I was like, three years old, two years old, four, five, six years old. Yeah, I've seen it. Going up. So how did it affect you? I just think after a while it becomes a norm. I just become something that's acceptable within a particular culture. Did you cry at the start? It was kind of really shocking initially, yes. But people assured you that it was normal and it's fine. That's fine, yes. But your intuition told you it wasn't? Well, yes. I still don't feel like, you know, just tying something and putting it on the ground and slaughtering it, it's still the best way to take life from something. Why are we even doing it for? It's been around, I don't know. I know you like the taste of something, but do you think taste should justify someone's life being taken? No, no. You're making me feel bad now. Well, no. Just trying to get to the bottom of what you feel about it, you know? No, it shouldn't. Because you're getting pleasure with taste. Taste is pleasure, isn't it? Yeah. It's a pleasure response. So you're getting the pleasure response and, you know, who else gets pleasure responses from things that are immoral? You know, in different contexts, people that get pleasure from animal cruelty or abusing someone or raping someone, you know, these pleasure doesn't justify immoral acts, does it? No, it doesn't. It doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't. I mean, like I've said, it's just something that's happened over the years and it's become normal. You've been conditioned so was I. We don't think about it, do we? No, not as much. I mean, especially when you don't see where they come from and are they being killed. So you don't think about it that much. But if you see it, then I think that would send them the right message. But I don't think, because we don't see it, then we don't really bother ourselves about what happens. So if someone saw the animal that they were about to eat be shot in the head or be afraid it didn't want to die. They're hung up by their hoof and struggling for their life. This is a dairy cow being killed. If they were faced with this, these suffering animals drowning in their own blood, do you think they would think twice before buying animal products? As humans, I think the initial response would be that. And I think we'll just kind of get over things as we go along. If we don't see it anymore, then we'll go back to it. I mean, you can be conditioned to violence. Think of soldiers. Think of like, I'm an ex-gang member, so when I was in gangs, I conditioned myself to be in a violent environment. But that wasn't a natural or moral thing. But I just didn't see it as wrong because I'd been so heavily conditioned that my intuition at the start when I first seen someone get attacked was like, whoa, this is scary. This is bad. So that's what I mean. You need people to see this. After a little while, they just kind of forget about it. It doesn't really actually send some of the right message. It's just about, oh, that's not fair. That's cruel. We shouldn't do that. Then people forget and people move on. It's like someone driving and you're driving on M25, you're seeing an accident and you've been speeding all the way down until you go to that point. Immediately you pass that and you drive about five, another five, ten minutes. Then you forget about that and you carry on doing what you're doing. So I think it's just that bit. I think it's just that it's become a norm for us to eat meat. It's culturally acceptable. It's acceptable. It's every way. Many bad things are culturally acceptable at one time. I mean, it's one of them. So I think we just need more awareness over it to be honest. So do you have younger children? Those are my kids, yeah. And what would you think if they realized where meat came from? I'd want to... Well, it depends. It depends on what I say and what I sell out to them. You obviously wouldn't take them to a slaughterhouse to see where their food is made. Well, it could do. It depends on my... So you'd be repeating what happened to you as a little kid? If I really want to, like, give them a new idea as to not to eat it, then I could do that. Take them to a slaughterhouse and say, this is not right, this is what happened. So you would teach your children... If I'm trying to, like, shift that culture from me being the norm to something that's not acceptable, then I can actually go down that route. Like, you teach your child ethics, like, don't hit the dog, hurting animals is bad, hurting people is bad. But if we feed them this flesh where they don't know where it comes from, we're sort of giving them two different ideas, aren't we? Yep, that's correct. Yeah, I accept that. But still... So let's just say, with this sign here, do you still disagree with it? Because when you pay for meat and animal products, you're putting these places in business. That's what I mean by support. Well, like I said... You can agree with it and be a hypocrite. That's what I did. I don't think I would stop you doing meat, to be honest. Yeah, but do you... I just want you to, whether you disagree or agree with that statement, you can agree with it and not be consistent, but just... Well, I do agree to an extent, yes. Sure, to an extent, yes. To an extent. Where's the extent end? When it becomes a survival situation. Okay. Are you in one now? No. So why do you eat animals? So you like the taste, we're back at taste. Come on, we already told you. Alright, brother, here. You know what, if you ever think about... Okay, of course. If you ever think about doing a vegan challenge, and please don't... Vegan challenge. Vegan challenge. Please don't show your child a slaughterhouse. See you, brother.