 What do people do at this point? I mean, the most I can do is go to a rally, do programs on it, try to get the word out. Did you have any solution to this what people can do at this juncture? One thing which has definitely changed the liberal establishment has changed its spots on Julian. A couple of years ago, there was hardly a newspaper in the world that was prepared to support Julian. Now, not only all the newspapers, but all of the, if you like, respectable human rights organizations like Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have finally all come out. So in terms of changing opinion that matters, because short of the revolution, the opinion of ordinary people doesn't matter. In terms of changing people that matters, there has been some progress. And I think that's potentially helpful. But the security state remains determined to kill him. Whether enough liberal establishment opinion can be mobilized to stop them killing him, I'm not sure. It's what we, but that basically has to be it. Because as I say, short of a full revolution in society, which unfortunately I don't see coming in the near future, we've really got very little else to work on. Yeah, I mean, how resilient can he possibly be being ensconced in this dank, small, you know, cell inside of this dungeon? Basically, I mean, Rudolph Hess had plenty, I think you referred to Rudolph Hess in one of your articles, had plenty of room to walk around, but in Albert Speer, plenty of room to walk around. This poor guy is in a very small cell. He doesn't get any exercise, no nutrition. I mean, how far do you think he can go with this? Because I know I would have been done by now. I don't think Julian is very resilient in this respect. And that's no shame, you know, because he's being subjected to conditions nobody should be subjected to. But there are people who have survived such conditions and worse conditions for longer periods and come out unharmed. I just don't think Julian's makeup is like that. In no sense is that a shame or criticism. I think he's somebody who is crushed and is crushable by these methods, which is of course why the state continues to use them on him. So I'm very, very worried about Julian. I'm worried about him surviving the experience or if he does survive the experience and we do get him out, I'm worried that he won't be the same man who went in. In fact, I think we are already beyond the stage where he'll be quite the same man who went in in terms of his physical or his mental health. So no, I think things are very alarming indeed. Peter Kropotkin, I think, lasted two years in the Peter and Paul fortress since 1871. Somehow he escaped, but he did, I believe, two years in a very, like, basically a toll booth in St. Petersburg. All right, Roger, the same question to you. Well, is it Joseph Kaye in the trial? Yes. In Kranskofka's novel. You know, the first lines, I believe, of that novel are that he wakes up one morning and he's been accused of something and he doesn't know what he is. And the whole novel really is about the helplessness because I was, when you were talking, and when Craig was talking about Julian's predicament, I'm thinking this is really, really, really clever guy. Really clever, really bright, really intensely intelligent man. Obviously, with a big heart, with a huge notion of what's right and what's wrong, with a great social conscience, with a huge desire to do good in the world, who achieves all of those aims and whatever. And falls prey to these fucking dumb fucks like George Bush and Tony Blair and Biden and Blinken and every single one of them. Compared with him, they're nothing. They're such small, insignificant, disgusting pieces of shit by comparison. And yet he lives in this aposic cell and they're killing him slowly but surely day by day and there's nothing that he can do about it except maintain his integrity like Craig Murray has done through his trials and tribulations and hope that we out here in free land, me in my little studio, Craig and his library, you and your whatever and whatever, keep shouting from the rooftops, rage and disgust at how we the people, billions and billions of us, allow these filthy little fucks to behave like this in our faces as if they were important, as if they ought to be allowed to rule the world. They shouldn't. And I agree with Craig. I don't think the revolution is going to happen tomorrow or the next day because Big Brother is very, very, very powerful. But all we can do is keep encouraging the choir to sing louder and louder and louder. And we can certainly until they let set Julian Assange free so he can rejoin the choir where he belongs and help us get out from under the jackboot of this neoliberal nonsense that is destroying our planet. I think, you know, Roger is right and that we have to keep fighting and we have to keep fighting in a way that gives us the best hope of success. But even if we felt we had no hope of success, we still have to keep fighting. There are some things that are simply worth fighting for and Julian's theorem is one of them and trying to write a horrible inequalities in the world and trying to stop torture, trying to stop man's inhumanity to man is something that's being incumbent on everyone and it's something which I will continue to work at and whether I'm effective or not is not the question. If we all keep working at it, we will become effective.