 Hi, this is Jack Lipton and this is Critical Materials Corner and today we're going to have a discussion with an actual miner of the world's first critical metal. So let me just quickly tell you what I mean. Tin was discovered as much as 5,000 years ago and of course copper had been discovered at the same time or earlier. That was the Stone Age. Shortly after that, the archaeologists tell us we entered into the Bronze Age. Now, what is bronze? Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin and guess what? Resource wars were fought many, many times in the ancient world over sources of tin. And I'm sorry to say this to my British friends, but the only reason Rome had any interest or even knew about Ancient Britain was because of the tin from Cornwall, which they need to make the bronze with which they could kill the people in Cornwall to take their tin. That was then. Now, tin is again a critical metal and it's one of the most unknown metals to the average person in the world because it's ubiquitous. It's everywhere. So you don't notice it. And this is, to me, it's amazing. But in any case, I'm not the expert today. We have two of them. One is my colleague Christopher Eccleston, the principal of Hallgarten and Company, who is covering this area. And he's going to speak today with the CEO of Althamn Resources, a company based in South Africa, which is one of the world's largest tin producers and has the richest tin deposits in the world. So, Christopher, I'm turning it over to you and please introduce our guest. Thank you very much, James. So I'm here today with Jack, of course, and with Marin Smith, the CEO of Althamn, which is listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange or Toronto Venture Exchange, despite the fact that it has a massive market cap now. So it should actually be upgrading. Maybe that could be our first question. Marin, so have you thought about upgrading to our high-end listing category in Toronto? Christopher, yes, we are looking at that. For us, certainly, it is very important for as many institutional retail investors to have access to our share. So we are considering that, Christopher. Having said that, we are delighted to have seen such a significant increase in our share trade liquidity over the last 18 months. We went from around a million shares a month to between 30 and 40 million shares traded a month. So that for us is already a big positive. But to answer your question, we are considering an update. Now, you're also quoted in Jo Berg, are you not? Yes, we are quoted on the Alt-X exchange in Johannesburg with very limited liquidity. Really, our area of focus is Toronto. Is there a reason why there's limited liquidity there? Free float is an issue, Christopher. The size of the register in Johannesburg is often in significant scale. So that is really the issue. Not enough shares on the register in South Africa. Okay, cool. To talk about markets a bit more, we're now probably a year into Tim's recovery. Because Tim, in the wake of the first, you know, whiff of the pandemic, plunged to something like 13,000 a tonne. Did it not? It's now at 32,000 a tonne. Having rallied massively, he hung around the bottom there for a few months, but then really started rebounding. And then probably this year, or really from late December, it went almost vertically up. So really great development. And the highest levels of Tim's seem for ages and ages now. So the question that intrigues me is why with such a stunning rally, is no one else trying to move in on your territory and develop Tim mines? Because there have been a few sort of Tim wannabes over the last 20 years. But you are really the first major to be created in the Tim space since, really, like the 1970s. So, yeah, like 50 years or more. 60 years. That's correct, Christopher. And really, it goes to how difficult it is to finance a Greenfields project production, right? It is not easy. As we all know, your traditional major miners being Anglo-American, Rio Tinto, Billiton and the like, are not really in your critical minerals, like Tim, right? So really, these Greenfields developments come or occur from smaller balance sheets and require significant external capital and debt financing, right? And we've now seen a period of five to 10 years where Tim has been hovering around $20,000 a ton, which is not necessarily a bad price for an ore body like Elfman, right? We are blessed with the highest grade ore body in the world. So our cost of production is very low. But for most projects out there, Christopher, grades of Tim in the ground average around 1%, whereas we are sitting at 4%. And the bottom line is that you then need to scale up production and you really need a Tim price well in excess of $20,000 a ton to justify economic returns to potential financiers of your project, right? And the world hasn't seen Tim prices on a sustainable level above $20,000 for a number of years. Now, that has culminated in a supply shortfall. And to be honest with you, Christopher, the world is going to have to see prices above $30,000 a ton for a couple of years before confidence grows in the sustainability of the price, right? Investors aren't going to invest because of what happened in the last six months. They need to see this being sustained before you will finance these new Greenfields projects. And even then, when you do accumulate the necessary funding solution, if you do a world-class job, it will take you seven years to get to production on average 10 to 12 years from feasibility to financing to building and to commissioning. So there's a major lag in new Greenfields supply. So that pretty much means that you're it for the foreseeable future. And so of course, you've already got BC up running and you're getting these 4% rates. You're looking a bit farther afield in the general region and your general mineralogical system you've got there for other manifestations so that you can use your critical mass in the region there from the northeast of the DRC. What are you finding so far? What do you think is the potential? Have there ever been 10 mines of over 4%? No, not that we're aware of. Christopher, not that we're aware of. Now, you know, going back five, six years, when we drilled up our initial resource, which is now our current producing ore body, we only drilled down to 400 meters, right? And that for us was enough to justify what we would like to call our start to mine, which is where we're producing from at the moment and we're producing around 4% of the world's mine tin, which I think is quite substantial. And in fact, with the second largest mine outside of Indonesia and China. So that ore body, we know extends at depth, Christopher. You know, the last set of drill holes at 400 meters intersected 16 meters of tin at 22% grade, right? So we are very positive that our ore body extends well below where our initial drilling stopped. And we are focusing internal cash flows on a drilling campaign at depth to at least in our opinion, double what we currently have, right? So what is your life of mine, the current results? Currently on the original life of mine schedule, it runs until 2028 on what has been drilled back then, right? So we will be drilling at depth and we are quite positive that we will at least double our life in the current ore body. Then what is very significant is that right next door, 700 meters to the south is another deposit. And we've released to the market the results from just about 10,000 meters worth of diamond drilling. We are finding very good grades. We are now into phase three of our drilling. And we are hopeful that by the end of this calendar year, we will announce a maiden resource for the next door deposit, which we will believe will translate into the second ore body. And hopefully in the not too distant future, we can ramp up production and start producing from the next door ore body down the line. And then further down south within our current license area over approximately 15 kilometers of rich running north south, we have a number of prospective targets and we'll also be drilling those targets and starting towards the end of quarter three of this year. So Christopher, the long and the short is we allocating significant internal cash flows towards our various drilling campaigns. We are very hopeful that we will be able to expand our life of mine into a multi-decade operation. And furthermore, we are very hopeful that we will possibly increase possibly double our production in the medium term in supplying some of the short fall in the current market. Coming back to that deposit you mentioned that's like 700 meters away from where you are currently, would that be a second mine or would you just extend the existing mine in that direction and get into that other ore body? So in terms of the next door deposit, it is separate to our current ore body. It appears to be dipping in the same direction as our current ore body and it appears to be taking a similar shape. Tin follows structures and there's a whole structure crossing this ridge within our current licensed area. And from the next door deposit, it does appear that these tin fluids follow the structures and it is taking a shape not too similar to our current ore body. So it will be a separate underground mine Christopher, but we will be able to draw from synergies in terms of our current on-surface processing facilities. Okay, well coming back to the issue of critical metals. Tantalum of course is a critical metal and in areas of Central Africa, Tantalum quite often appears with tin. Have you been finding this at your explorations or not? Well what other metals do you have, have you been finding? Right, so we're finding predominantly tin but associated with other base metals like zinc, copper, a little bit of arsenic and the like. So a little bit of lead and silver as well. So basic base metals associated primarily with tin. In very small quantities do we find other base metal traces which we successfully extract from our final concentrate through our processing. So this is a bit like the tin mines in Tasmania where they have base metals rather than specialty metals. Correct, correct. Right and now back again to the critical metals issue. You know we've heard a lot of kerfuffle in the US, the EU, job mech, et cetera, talking about you know what are critical metals and tins are always on the list but when it comes to actually doing something about tin, you know politicians in Washington and elsewhere get themselves all excited about rare earths and things that frankly are just not as important as tin and things that are as dominated by China as tin because of course China has an enormous position in tin not only as a miner but as a processor. So why do you think the politicians are missing the woods for the trees here in not making a bet on future tin supplies and yet getting themselves all hot and bothered about rare earths and other such things that frankly we could ultimately do without but we cannot do without tin because of its role in soldiers and you know basic things that keep our world together. Rare earths you know the winter vines didn't turn or the EVs didn't roll we'd all still be here but the tin is far more strategic dare I say it than rare earths so why aren't they focusing on that? Well I suppose that's the billion dollar question Christopher and I wish I knew the answer to it and maybe maybe maybe there's a belief that that one can extract enough supply out of Indonesia and the like and it's not just beholden on China although China produces 50% of the world's refined tin and I don't know Christopher I just have to raise one point which I think is important it is not like there's not enough tin underground in the world there's enough tin and to satisfy demand going forward even in the midst of this technological revolution the issue is that the world needs a sustained higher tin price as an incentive to extract these lower grade higher costs. Maybe they're actualizing an incentive price which will stimulate demand and for the supply or stimulate supply and for the the the current deficit but certainly there's enough tin around Christopher it just needs a better price. Jack what do you think what do you think the politicians do know the issue? Well I'm not no I think that you've hit on something very important which is the blinders that the politicians were I think the answer to your question about why they're not you know interested in tin is is sort of obvious they they have no understanding of it they have no understanding of how our world is constructed and what holds it together and so they jump on whatever it's a self-sustaining fantasy the the the journalists who don't have any idea what they're talking about explain to the politicians what what is important to those people who live on the Upper East Side of New York or in the gated communities in Washington and they all decide that well I guess rare earths are important whatever that is and cobalt and whatever that is and lithium well I have a girlfriend who takes lithium so they all know about that you know it's really a joke I was the question I'd like to ask Moritz is what are the principal uses of tin today and where are your markets by size? in terms of in terms of the use of tin primarily it is used in solder and really there was a step change in 2005 when lead was declared hazardous by first world economies right and turn out to replace lead in solder and that's really where the step change in demand started but interestingly enough China still uses lead in 70% of their their solders so that's another area where demand will increase going forward as they continue with the with the process of switching to to tin so mainly used in solder and solder is critical it is the glue that holds the electronics and technology world together without solder there's no circuit boards there's a line for the front page of your PowerPoint it is absolutely absolutely critical and and and it's not really seen right so you know the use of solder is unseen it's within your electronic devices you can't really feel it you can't really smell it you know and and that's maybe why it's not not hitting the radar to the extent that it should and in terms of the electronics industry as you well know that is projected to grow by at least five percent annually going forward now if you were to translate that into into growth in tin demand for solder in electronics you know then you're looking at another 60 000 tons a year in five years time which incrementally is required from new supply which is quite significant over 10 years you're looking at 150 000 tons and so that's quite significant now in terms of the the markets for for tin in solder as you can imagine predominantly in China it being a world power in terms of manufacturing of of electronic equipment but also the pan South Korea Europe and the US are major major users of of tin in solder and and then and then you need to to to think of the equation of these major first world economies particularly Japan South Korea who are beholden on Indonesia and China for all all intents and purposes and in in in sourcing refined tin so really a bit of an an imbalance there and it goes to your point as to maybe the world not recognizing the the the strategic importance of of tin and and supply being concentrated in Indonesia and China now you mentioned the 32 000 price at the moment and how it for future development you need to really sort of like lock that in is there a mode for selling forward tin beyond the I'm not sure on the LME how how much you can sell forward in which you can lock in those prices and how is the company just close towards locking in the 32 000 in case it goes to 35 or it goes to 27 or 20 even you know because as we've seen the problem in the past has been there's some sort of yo-yo in the price that the metal that has I've encouraged or discouraged parties from entering the crack and Christopher you know this question of you know to hedge or not to hedge is is one that never has a it will never have a right answer right and for us as a company first of all from a technical perspective to answer your question yes you can forward sell tin on the LME market and for a company of our size we would probably be able to forward sell you know up to 40% of our production for for maybe 15 months or so right the issue with forward selling for us is that first of all you're selling into a backwardation curve so the price reduces and the further out you go in terms of fixing your price but more importantly for us we believe that we are not currently in a position where we need to protect the downside our margins are robust our cash flows are robust and our drilling campaigns are funded from current cash flows our debt is nearly repaid we are hopeful that we will repay our debt this calendar year on the back of these prices and so we have nothing to protect in our opinion at the moment and really we would like to keep our business as fundamental as possible and our business is about producing as much tin as possible and selling it when it's ready to be sold cool um have another question and it comes back to the the pricing again um you know for people who don't know um the tin price has had looming over for decades and decades now the total debacle of the early 1980s when the international tin council the tin association or whatever it was back at the time tried to create a corner in in its own mail um sort of like the bunker huts um failed miserably in silver but they tried to do a keep prices up rather than create a corner and it all ended in in massacres do you think that the current price surge is the final burying of the debacle of the 1980s and that we can finally leave that behind and uh and say the tin is now entirely subject to supply and demand and thus people should be actually getting into it and doing um more exploration because as you mentioned um the field has been largely left to junior juniors and elfin in itself was a junior junior for um quite a few years there um there's a hobbit between life and death and now you know the patience is paid off and um what's your market cap now at 800 million plus in canada yes yes yes around nine and eight to nine hundred million canadian what's a hundred million between friends um but uh that's absolutely brilliant because you look at the universe of Australian juniors in that space they're they're all 10 million 15 million two million market caps um and they obviously don't have the wherewithal to um move their own projects forward if their projects are worth moving for um so have we finally left behind that ghost I think so now we face the sunny uplands of uh of you know actually you invest in tin and you make money back I think it's very relevant that tin is now traded through the LME right I think that's very relevant um so the LME is now a custodian of supply and demand in tin I believe that there's a fairly liquid free market now in in tin um and and on the back of that you know why not see it you know in the same fashion as as copper you know you do have a custodian um there's a free market liquidity has improved significantly through the LME warehouse and so I really think I don't I don't see the days coming back and that you refer to and certainly for me it is now a well-regulated liquid metal which in my opinion is worth investing in I agree uh can you hear me yes yes we hear you all right we have to wrap up this fascinating discussion uh but I do want to make you just started yes that's right I want to make two points one for those of us who speak American English these gentlemen are speaking about solder they call it solder for some reason it's not now in it but solder is a word that may resonate with Americans they they've heard of it okay everyone's seen somebody solder a plumbing pipe okay the the point is this very simply the use of tin and solder is absolutely critical to our society because what you don't realize is that chips electronics things like that are switches they're merely telling relays to pass large amounts or stop passing large amounts of electricity for that to happen you need copper wire for copper wire to be connected to circuits you need solder and and so you don't see it but without it you you would we would not have any of these electronic toys that we we deem so critical to our society anyway I want to thank uh both of you and I'm hoping this will put tin on everybody's radar by the way radar wouldn't work without tin either so thank thank you thank you very much thank you very much