 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm joined by Kurt doll who is an entertainment lawyer and plays in one bad son Which is just a huge huge band around the world, but particularly in Canada where Kurt is from Kurt welcome to the show Thanks for having me Bart appreciate it. This is this is a fun one. So we're talking today about Kind of some legal stuff. So we're talking about copyright law and drums and drum beats and Can you copyright a drum beat? I mean, that's really the age-old question and I know it's caused a lot of drama and heartache for a lot of very famous drummers like ginger Baker and Keith Moon and John Bonham and all these guys So I'm excited to hear about it. But before we jump in let me say Real quick. I want to give a shout out to the people who recommended this episode. So first off my personal close, you know, Cincinnati guy guy played in the band with friend Ryan Maloney Suggested this to me and then basically the same week Guy Lakata who is the founder of reflex drum pads, which are just awesome super popular great drum pads we were talking on the phone and just talking about copyright issues in general about manufacturing and Maybe we can touch on that too. It's a little different than the drum beat thing But so thank you to guy and thank you to Ryan For suggesting this but it led me down a quick Google search of copyright and drum beat and boom Lawyer drummer calm showed up which that is you my friend. So why don't we why don't we jump in here and just tell us Go back as far as you can about Copyright and drum beats and the issues that have been around since the beginning of copyright. Yeah Well, that's that's a daunting ask, but I'll tackle it Bart. I like it You know, it's interesting. I think and I guess what a starting point Bart I would say is, you know, just to clarify You know when we're talking about like, can you copyright a drum beat? We're talking about like more on the songwriting side of things like as far as because there's two copyrights in every song There's one in the recording and then one in the actual song itself like, you know, the songwriting And now I think we'll come back to that probably a lot today those two different copyrights and those are it's a very important distinction, right? Because on the recording side, you definitely kind of a copyright on your performance, you know on John Bonham's Amazing beat on when the levy breaks you can damn well bet that that's copyrighted. It's owned by Atlantic Records, right? Yeah and if you try to like sample if you sample that iconic drum beat well then Technically yours you need permission or you need to pay a royalty, right? So and this is where that gets into sampling. That's a whole other, you know discussion. I think right Sampling a recording that's different and that's where You know amazing records like Paul's boutique by the Beastie Boys They had so many samples on there. They were not authorized and then Yeah, basically Paul's boutique could not be recorded today with it would be too it would too much leg work and too many licenses to ever become profitable but So that's on the recording side now What we're really talking about is like is essentially is drum is drumming songwriting, you know Can you could I as a drummer go lay down a beat? The levy breaks drum beat on a new song that my band was recording and get away with it and From what my research, I mean technically the answer is yes, you know you you can't really Bonham or his estate can't really say hey, that's his drum beat. You can't go steal that But I think if so if I if I did go and play that exact drum beat on some other music some other guitar refs Whatever, I mean people would call me a hack, you know and a thief but yeah, you know I think what I've found is that I don't think his estate could like sue me and say hey You're infringing his copyright and I guess yeah the real reason for that part is You know technically a lot of times in the eyes of the law Drumming is not songwriting and as a drummer myself and as a lover of drums I mean, I don't like that because I really do think that if you look at You know the iconic songs by Zeppelin or the who or queen or even like the chili peppers You know exactly the drummer or the stones or the beat I mean the drummer is such an integral part of the sound and the nature of the songs So I feel that drumming is songwriting Yeah, and again with some bands, you know, for example the chili peppers They divide all the songwriting equally and including Chad Smith. So they acknowledge that he contributes to the writing. So Anyways, I'm going all over the place already But no and it's fine and I want to jump in and I want to throw out there real quick though before we move on because I've had Dylan Wissing on the on the podcast before who his job. It's just interesting about what you said before about You can go and play like when the levy breaks what he did an episode about The funky drummer beat, you know Clyde stubblefield who did, you know, James Brown? Yeah What Dylan does though very, you know It's his job is a lot of times what he'll do is recreate exactly the sound of the funky drummer beat or, you know, any any you name that the original kind of beat they want to sample His job is to recreate it with the is close to the perfect snare drum is close to the perfect Preamp into the same board if possible to avoid those copyright issues And I that's again, it's it's on huge huge songs I always done it with like Alicia Keys and different people who want to use certain beats and recreate it and And there's no legal issue as far as I know. So like so he recreates it without yeah Without having to get a sample essentially like he exactly remakes he makes the sample But does it again and new and with him playing? So you can go and recreate something get the exact same sound, you know, of course the same playing like the same notes are being played and Even the same sound and then not get a sample or not have to pay I mean to me that it just to me doesn't doesn't sit right with me and it's not just because I'm a drummer It's more it's also because you know just like from a legal theory standpoint. I mean Like why can you do that? But if you go and rip off, you know, the the riff to Satisfaction and you recreate Keith Richards, you know guitar tone and and do that riff. Well, that is plagiarism And I think I mean the answer comes down to I mean, what do they consider songwriting and by they I mean I guess yeah music industry as a whole or courts of law Yeah, it's like what is songwriting, you know, basically they what what courts have said is it involves melody and chord structures and lyrics not Not drumming so But yeah, so it's I think that's and that's the heart of our discussion I think today is like does that make sense? Should it be that way? I mean when you when you have You know Keith moon playing on I can see for miles like is that not songwriting? I mean to me that makes the song right and And again, that's I don't think it's just cuz I'm a drum nerd I think it's I think it's cuz I'm a music lover, right? Yeah, and I I always think too that like you hear about these famous And I can't even some I can't even pull one out off the top of my head right now I feel like there's chili peppers songs where they say oh, that's like an exact song That's like, you know a Tom Petty song or there's these songs where they're like Sort of close and they go to you know fight in court over it because they say that it sounds too similar And there's been some of them that I hear and I go actually I don't really hear that like maybe it's the same chord Structure or maybe it's this or that So people do have huge legal battles over over sort of sounding similar when it comes to melody and Tonal instruments meaning like guitar and bass and stuff and piano, but They're very sensitive about it, but us drummers have to just put up with Whatever, you know, we can't stick up for ourselves. Well, you're right. It's interesting. I mean, yeah I think it was Mary Jane's last dance Tom Petty and then they said that Danny California by the peppers and you're right. It sort of has that, you know the kind of that same sort of riff ish, but but the riff is actually quite different and then sort of the same Delivery in terms of the the cadence on the vocals, you know but and I won't sing the two here because I'm a drummer and no one wants to hear that but But you know, you're right I heard that I was like, well a little bit, but I don't I don't really see it And you're right so if that's sort of like a little bit similar and it's it's bringing up possible lawsuits, it's you know How can how can the drums be like I copied to the exact note and tone? And it's just you have to just accept it and again I think it's sort of the definition of songwriting. Yeah, so I get this just as a As a quick aside, like I get this question all the time from bands that are my clients, you know How should we divide songwriting, you know, and I think that's that's at the heart of this whole discussion It's like what constitutes songwriting, you know, and And I always say this sort of like a spectrum When it comes to artists, you know, like on one side of the spectrum is like You know, like the Bob Dylan's or the Neil Young's of the world who have a band that they sort of hire But they they write all the songs, you know, like Bob's not co-writing with anyone typically, right? So no songwriting goes to the band rhythm section or even extra guitar players Whatever it all stays with with Bob or Neil and then on the other side of the spectrum is bands. It's really Everyone's contributing. It's sort of like jam based sort of songs And that would be like the chili peppers where they divide everything equally. Yeah Everyone's bringing ideas like lyrically possibly or maybe just musically. Yeah and then in the middle is sort of like those bands or it's Kind of not neither but like maybe one or two people are sort of The main writers so that'd be like the Rolling Stones where most of the songs are Mick and Keith You see them listed as writers Or the Beatles, I mean, there's always Lenny McCartney in the occasional Harrison song that would be just strictly him Yeah And so I typically say all bands and that fall somewhere on that spectrum and you just sort of got to find out Where you where you sit as a band. Yeah, that's that's also like what we're talking about this, you know For this and like this scenario right now is also kind of like an internal struggle for copyright versus external is like Someone else using a beat that sounds kind of like you I mean, but it's like you they raises the question of like well You can't copyright like the two four money beat like Billy Jean, you know, you like It's just such an interesting thing. It's like well, then there wouldn't be anything Music would stop because you can't use that beat anymore I don't mean music would actually stop but like you'd be kind of you'd run out of How many variations can you do? It's like you you kind of need to be able to use those and then you can't really pick and choose and go. Oh Okay, well You can use this beat, but you can't use that beat because it's a little more creative like let's say come together Or something, you know by the Beatles, that's more Tom oriented But like I guess you just can't really pick and choose, you know, well, and that's and that's a good great point I mean, that's the question. I guess can you? Yeah, can you differentiate just your standard, you know four on the floor beat versus when the levy breaks? Well, I Mean, you're right at the end of the day We don't want every drum beat to be copyrighted because then your people would stop making music because they'd be worried They'd get sued and there'd be no new ideas left out there Um, except create except crazy, you know jazz, you know seven four second shirts beats, whatever Some people can't dance to you know But but it's a good question though because I would say, you know, you can't caught you can't copyright just like Gcd on the guitar, you know the but if you do that with a bunch of other chords and then sing a melody to it You can copyright it right? It's all of a sudden it becomes Well, whatever there's so many songs. Yeah, I think that progression maybe there could be differentiation But maybe we don't want it, but I guess what I what I'm saying is you're right. You're standard four on the floor drum beat I think it could be differentiated from again when levy breaks or the beat on Sunday Bloody Sunday or Whatever but yeah at the end of the day, you're right Maybe this is the balance that copyright plays and it's same with not just drums with it with any instrument It's like you want it there to make sure people don't if you write a great song You want to be paid for it because otherwise someone could just steal it But you don't want to be too restrictive that it sort of hinders creativity So yeah, I guess yeah for me drumming drumming is interesting because I think there is some situations like that Like the beat is so iconic that maybe there should be protection and I don't know yeah It's it's an interesting thing now. Why don't we maybe go backwards a little bit here and talk about some history stuff We've obviously named some classic examples where and you know, I think people know this now where if I Could include audio examples, but the the whole that's a thing too with podcasts and copyright Where if I start dropping in Sunday Bloody Sunday at the beginning then I guarantee and within like you know six months or a year Apple is gonna get wise to because a lot of podcasts do have other music which I think is awesome, but They're gonna catch on to it because YouTube Instagram I post a lot of drum videos on there and the second I include more than I would say honestly one to two seconds of of music outside of the drum beat because I always try to do the drum solos it It gets flagged for copyright. It's and but the algorithms and all that stuff can't really catch As far as you know at August 16th 2021. They're not really able to catch me pulling off Drum solo type things so interesting. That's even copyright related You know so but but man they take it down fast Warner Brothers or whoever if I have like a video and then there's a split second of Brian May coming in after Roger Taylor did a drum solo boom. It is taken down So interesting but and but just the drum part if it was just the drum part it would stay yeah, I mean it's but it's typically a drum solo because there's not too many videos of a Famous drummer playing just his drum beat, but but yeah, like yeah, but I mean I'm telling you like I mean even like Like I remember I posted like an iron butterfly video and the drummer was playing and I think I just had like it was like a crash hit and it was like And I left it in because I was like they're not gonna catch that one note and it got taken down like instantly So that's so interesting to me. Yeah. Yeah, and it happens all the time And you know, I did one the other day where it was Fred Astaire dancing and singing and hitting kicking the drums and stuff and doing a tap dance thing and I got to pull it up here. It was only taken down in Cuba Iran North Korea and Syria where it wasn't allowed to play Fred Astaire kicking and dancing and tap dancing his drums They're like they're just they're not they're not fans of I mean, but really though, I'm kind of curious. Why was it just those four Countries that let's be honest. Sometimes there's some controversial stuff. There's political stuff going on, but I'm not I'm not sure why that actually was but Anyway, all that being said, why don't you talk to us a little bit more about how early does this go back to these problems? I feel like it kind of pops up a lot in the rock days of the 60s and 70s when drummers were kind of getting into the rock beats But what's your earliest kind of examples of this debate? Well, I mean, it's a good question I think, you know, it's a really if we're talking about copyright Disputes when it comes to music. I mean because there's not a lot of case law when it comes to the actual drum beat You know sort of copyright But there's a lot of case law in terms as we've seen even in the recent years, you know, the Led Zeppelin case was huge But that's just plagiarism in general, right? That's not and again I should say plagiarism is a bit different than what we're talking about to some extent But again, I guess what we're saying is could if I again, I laid down the you know When levy breaks beat on my new song that I'm recording could I be sued for plagiarism? I mean the answer is no, but I guess we are talking about plagiarism to some extent, right? Yeah, but I think also that we should we should point out that like in the court of public opinion You would be probably seen as being like what the hell is this guy doing? You know, yeah, exactly same tempo huge drum sound you'd be kind of like and You know, there's there's a band Greta van fleet who's awesome But they sound a lot like Zeppelin and I think that is a thing where it's like well, it hurts you to And I think they're really cool But it does hurt you a little bit to sound exactly like something in just people's opinions Which isn't legal, but it's a thing. Yeah, actually and Greta's a great example of You know, and this serve it's a fascinating debate. I find like, you know Nothing they're doing is like actual plagiarism like they're not trying to write a song that sounds like stairway But the overall aesthetic the overall feel is definitely Zeppelin. I mean they you know, even though they try to deny it I mean, it's pretty it's like the first thing everyone thinks of so therefore it's it's pretty it's pretty obvious Yeah, but maybe that's different. There's one band who maybe has it coming to them it's Zeppelin though because of the amount of songs that they have taken and kind of like Exactly. Well, all the all the all the old blues guys, right? And so that and that's what I joked. I got one of my website articles of someone commented like They're not seeing Greta van fleet because they've already done it so many times in cells, right? There's and and and that was sort of part of the this relates I guess to everything we're talking about I mean that was part of the history of blues was like you would be influenced by someone else You take that sort of same song that same theme and then just add your twist to it, right? So early blues guys were always borrowing stuff off each someone they saw in the next town or whatever And then you sort of make it your own That's why there's so many songs that are so-and-so blues and then everyone that does their interpretation of it, right? That just that world is obviously Pre that's a pre copyright world where they didn't care, you know, copyright wasn't a thing They're all just trying to you know pass on the tradition of blues And then we yeah, we fast-forward into this world right now So I mean I guess to answer your question. I mean in terms of copyright issues and then plagiarism cases I mean they started happening in like the 60s 70s in the heyday of you know What I consider like the golden era of rock and roll in many ways in 60s 70s And also in the golden era of the sale of recorded music, you know, like So there's a lot of money at stake and then what I found recently is in the last five years This sort of like there has been a real ramp up in plagiarism cases that I find fascinating I always love to write articles on these things and compare the two songs because as a lawyer I find it fascinating but also as a musician, you know like comparing you know comparing the let's stairway to heaven to The Taurus Song yeah, you know like it's I find it so fascinating because as a player myself like you know There is sort of the argument that everything's been done and there's not there's no original idea under the Sun sort of thing But that being said if you rip off stairway to heaven, well, then it's clear you're ripping off Zeppelin But what if they stole it from someone else which seems to be at least the one progression Core progression seemed to be very very much in existence prior to what what page wrote, you know, yeah Yeah, so anyways, I find like I guess what I'm getting at is the number of plagiarism cases have increased I think in the last several years and part of it I think is because we all of a sudden have every single song in the world at our fingertips so we can very much easily compare the two and I Think overall people there's gonna be more and more of these plagiarism suits because Again, I think You know, maybe I don't know people are people like to look to the past for inspiration And I think that I think that that's gonna keep happening and with technology you can sort of take take ideas Yeah, like the Pharrell the Robin Thicks, you know song blurred lines with the Marvin Gaye song I mean they they admitted like Pharrell and Robin Thicke and this is why they found guilt not guilty But sure this is why they lost the case It's because they said they admitted like in some interviews that we were going for a Marvin Gaye vibe We ripped off a Marvin Gaye song like I said that a few times and So I tell my clients like if you're gonna like try to like rip off the aesthetic of a song don't admit it in an interview Yeah, yeah, no keep it to yourself Yeah, and just to so people can do their own little research too So you were talking about Taurus before so the song Taurus by the band Spirit is like Basically, I think a lot of people think that's where Led Zeppelin kind of got You know Jimmy Page maybe got the riffs and the ideas for stairway to heaven so everyone can go and kind of check that out on their own but So this is like, you know, I think it's kind of fun to do episodes like this where yes We're talking about drums in general But I think really it's kind of quickly expanded into like music and songs and copyright and I was watching something on I think it was Hulu where it was all about Who let the dogs out and I'll send you the link actually Kurt because it you'd love it it was Apparently that song has like 20 people who are Like adamant that they were the ones who wrote that that rhythm that who let the dogs out who who and I mean they have recordings They have floppy disks of them from their like old MPC kind of like, you know samplers and like the 90s and It is like a really really good documentary, but it's this because it's made a lot of money and It's tons and tons of back-and-forth, but this can like this topic of copyright can really tear a band apart I mean it can cause friends to family members to hate each other So it's it's really emotional and that that kind of leads me to I know famously Ginger Baker is Kind of on the record is being very very angry and just yeah with sunshine of your love In particular about He didn't I don't think he got any songwriting credits I'm pretty sure at least Everyone else got got more as being the singers and the guitarist and bassist So he is not a happy guy. Well, he was kind of mean and angry in general. I love ginger Baker But he's kind of a character But that didn't help anything With famous songs like that. Yeah, you're right. And I remember reading about that too and And I think and that's the with a band like cream I mean, they're the kind of band that you know We talked about spectrum earlier in terms of songwriting and for me like that's a band That should have been like a three-way split equal because the just the sound is so like some bands It makes sense that it should the sound without one of them. It just wouldn't be the same and I think that'd be cream But they just didn't have that discussion or they did and whatever they decide that wouldn't give Ginger any songwriting, but yeah, like some bands and this is what I often say to bands too like with some bands You don't want to divide things equally like because then if one person is like Not bringing any song ideas to the table and they're they never show up on time to jam and whatever. I mean like Just giving everyone equal splatter equal split does not always make sense. It just it can really It could create like a freeloader basically So I think but with certain bands I gotta look back over the history of rock because that's that's my language is role Like the who that should have been I mean Pete Pete did he was the genius songwriter that brought all the lyrics and and often Well and the chords, but I mean with Aunt Whistle and Keith I mean to me the greatest rhythm section of all time and then Roger like this killer vocalist like There could have been an argument. They should have split things equally But they didn't and then like you said it created animosity amongst the four of them because Pete You know over time all of a sudden had made several million dollars more than the rest of the guys and So and there's always that sort of element too. Maybe you want to maybe it helps just create Sort of more loyalty to the band or whatever if you're dividing equally, but yeah I also think that and I mean this is hard to say as a drummer But like if the guy or girl who was writing and doing a lot of that leg work There should be a little more compensation on that end if you're the guy actually or girl writing the song Bringing the melody doing all of that stuff It is it is very tricky. Yeah, you know what I mean though. It shouldn't maybe automatically be 33 33 33 Split if it's three people, you know the math can change but So it's got to be a case-by-case scenario Totally and and you're right and I should clarify like it only it only makes sense in certain situations where Yeah, the song like the songs are so They couldn't be done without the same those those those same members sort of thing and and I think it also I mean with my band for example, like we all bring in song ideas on the guitar We all bring in lyric ideas. We all write together from the ground up. So, you know, we divide everything equally songwriting wise But you're right. I mean if there's if there's times or yeah I think if you're average you're sort of average drummer I'll put that in quotation marks shows up and just plays that lays down a beat to songs They've been written outside of their involvement then that doesn't really it doesn't seem like songwriting to me, right? So it every situation is so different, you know, and again, just like I said the Bob Dylan's Band like he brings in songs that are complete and says here's the chords You know add your flair or whatever that means to the song, but you're not a co-writer with me Yeah, so yeah another so I'm gonna link to your article in the show notes here, but people can find it by Lawyer drummer calm and I'm sure what's pretty easy to find there But there's something here that you you're talking about We'll kind of touch on I just think throughout this some of these famous famous songs where you can go Oh, yeah, that's an interesting one. We will rock you which Arguably is maybe Like I mean I have a two-year-old that we do that kind of on our You know with stomping our foot and clapping our hands boom boom bat Arguably one of the first drumbeats you'll ever learn obviously mate. Well, let's say maybe it's the second drumbeat You'll ever learn I think we all know the first one But it's just so like ubiquitous that it's like it's hard to copyright that but what you said here is It seems that a drumbeat and something else needs to be added before the piece is considered songwriting So we do that we will we will rock you so you're adding on that Even then you're using the big stadium and the stomping that they're doing but it's the mixture of those things that that makes it Songwriting which then ergo songwriting is copyrightable. Yeah, exactly. It's and maybe that sort of hints it or hits at the The nature of drumming. I mean like we're often, you know aside from the occasional drums solo I mean drummers are often, you know accompanying other instruments, right? And So maybe that's why like maybe it makes sense, right? If yeah, just going stomp stomp clap like is that songwriting or is that like if so then like the original caveman that did that We have to track track him down find his family Yeah, exactly who is it? It's probably John. Yeah, that would be that would make an ancestor. Yeah Yeah, but yeah, then we add something and even you're right Even if it was like in the verse where Fred Freddy's are doing like that You know, like if you had the same beat and then a different singer, you know, obviously in doing different lyrics But with that same sort of intonation I think that'd be like, okay, this is a rip-off and Therefore that's plagiarism. But yeah, just the beat itself would not be so it's I find it so fascinating Especially it I'm not a big hip-hop guy. I'm very Not I'm not really a big pop guy. I'm a rock and roller But I see I see in you know pop and hip-hop just just rule the the music biz these days and I see that as a lawyer In those genres like there's so much ripping off of other songs and you know So I think there's gonna be more and more of these sort of questions brought up is what and then again When it comes to the beat too is so intriguing because obviously in those two genres the beat is so important, right? So like can you take the beat from another hip-hop song and then just kind of add your own hip-hop? you know rapping over it or You know, is that is that allowed or what and I think we're gonna see more and more of those questions and more and more of those Plagiarism cases coming up. Yeah, the whole thing I just keep thinking like man It's such a sticky situation and then you don't want to you don't want to like inhibit other people from creating But I think there needs to be a clear no one I think everything sits right for someone to like sample the Like let's say that we will rock you beat and then like that exact recording and Put other music over top of it because that's just not that's really the I guess, you know Like you said early that's copyrightable like that and I'm sure you know this obviously much better than me What is like so how does that work? Isn't it like a mechanical license if you want to use that? What is that kind of stuff where if you did want to use it and you wanted to pay a lot of money you can Basically get their permission and pay for it. Correct. Yeah, exactly. So it wouldn't be a mechanical like so a mechanical For example, my band covered Cycle Killer by the Talking Heads We sort of did our own take on it You know just through it I just thought it'd be a cool song to cover especially with like sort of an updated view on it Like more of a hard rock view instead of like a Talking Heads view on it. So And it became like our most Listen-to song on Spotify. So we sort of did it on a whim, but So for that, for example, see that that's where we got a mechanical license So you just have to go through that the process is to get a mechanical license Which basically means that when we sell that cover song on iTunes, let's say we sell it for 99 cents nine cents goes to the writers of it, which is the Talking Heads of David Byrne and Tina, yeah, whatever three the three main writers from Talking Heads. So so that's a mechanical But as far as a sample, I mean if you're actually sampling a song so I had this other clients release a song that had a sample of Sort of obscure Paul Simon song, which is cool because I'm a huge Paul Simon fan So it's kind of cool the clients like I've got the song I want to sample this little loop from Paul Simon How do I do it? And so I'd reached out to Paul Simon's like publishing company and it's like it's called like Paul Simon Publishing in New York City and I got a hold of the lady and she's like hey She's like super friendly and she's like, yeah, and I was like chatter. I thought I was like, you know Paul He's she's like, yeah, he comes in every couple weeks It's just he lives nearby and he comes in and like ask what's happening with his catalog and stuff Which I thought was just pretty badass that you know, she actually knew yeah, and then and then we so we Basically had to go through that process and when it comes to that I mean you can you have to get approval So in this situation, we played her and I guess in theory she played to him the sample and a lot of times It just goes to the publisher and the publisher decides if they want to but And yeah, they ended up approving it and So then we had to negotiate a fee for that and then and then maybe on that new song If the sample is sort of an integral part of the new song which in hip-hop I mean sometimes these samples are so they're a huge part of this the new song Then you negotiate how much songwriting goes to in this case Paul Simon. Yeah, right? So so then all of a sudden you're like you know, I think of all these These new songs that like are using old old tracks, you know an old songwriting It's such a such a windfall for these old artists, right? If they've you know, if that Paul Simon song became a massive the new one became a massive hit Then all of a sudden he just gets his windfall of money, which without having to do anything, right? Yeah Pretty nice. So yeah, so yeah, so that's how that work in terms of like a sort of a sample situation This episode is brought to you by drummers hands CBD ball Inspired by drummers wear and tear on their hands drummers hands CBD bomb is great for targeted pain relief Drummers hands combines the power of full-spectrum CBD with potent herbs including arnica and come free These have been shown to relieve pain inflammation help heal bruising and encourage tissue repair Combination of these herbs with CBD makes drummers hands a powerful bomb This stuff is great for hands wrists forearms elbows shoulders traps knees Anywhere you're aching plus it smells great the combination of peppermint tea tree and cypress essential oil smells like a minty pine forest In a base of shea butter beeswax and safflower oil drummers hands CBD bomb is made of all-natural and organic ingredients Small batch handmade lab tested inspired by drummers made for everyone get some at drummers hands comm Use promo code drum history to get free shipping on your order and a quick side note I've been using a CBD bomb on my ankle after I had surgery last October And when I started using it I pretty quickly started seeing results and just helping with the pain and inflammation and all that stuff So definitely check it out and you'll love it Good points. Okay, and then I'm also interested too in how it works with if everyone has let's say a whatever like a corg little drum pad or a doctor rhythm or whatever And there's like pre built-in beats in there and I've heard it a lot where like maybe like there's like a Micro synth or something that you hear the same little oscillator kind of thing that I heard the flaming lips use and a bunch of people Where you're using pre Built let's say a drum beat that's like built into like a Yamaha keyboard or something You you write to it and then you end up loving it and you just kind of put it on the song Anyone else could use that exact same beat because it's it comes built into a a brand name a major brand named piece of equipment Synth tones base, you know, whatever that's just kind of an interesting thing too of like You if you know if you don't change it or modify it then anyone can use your same You know like if you use an arpeggiator or something it's like well that I guess right you can't copyright anything like that Yeah, and that's a great question like in theory And I see this happen too with So I've got clients of mine that like sell beats online and and I always have to be clear when I'm saying beats Because I as a drummer when I say beat I'm talking drumbeat But when I'm talking yeah hip-hop they call, you know, the beat they call the whole music right like the loop or whatever I'm people Exactly as the drumbeat was also like keys and could be guitars and bass guitar or whatever that whole thing It's called the beat. I always have to clarify that because you know, we're talking to fellow drummers a beat means something different and then hip-hop so it is they sell beats hip-hop beats and So I asked the same thing I'm like so you could in theory sell the same beat the underlying music to like a thousand different hip-hop Rappers and then they would have a thousand different songs with the same music But different vocals and it's kind of analogous to what you're talking about with the you know Like they say like the the music making apparatus, whatever it is So with with these beat companies a lot of times you can buy the non-exclusive beat or the exclusive beat and If you buy non-exclusive then anyone it's cheaper, of course And then but other some other rapper could have the same music and then it kind of makes you look not as cool If if someone else especially if your song becomes a hit and then all of a sudden yeah There's another song with that same music so and then you buy the exclusive beat And then no one else can use it, but and they take it down from the site in theory once you bought it Yeah, so but that doesn't answer your question Which is I find fascinating like and I'm sure there's been examples over the history of hip-hop I've got of people that have like taken some sort of like toy essentially. I'm looking at one right now in front of me I've got this I've got this Kawasaki Drum-making machine in front of me that my kids play with yeah, and it actually makes a cool beat Actually like it yeah, that's a great point of like or organ that has like a an old You know drum beat that you would play in church or whatever like you can hit play on that and Makes me think of like J.J. Kale like call me the breeze and it's just oh great too. Yeah. Yeah. It's just like a Kick in a snare looped coming out of like a you know an old Hammond organ or something So yeah, and that's like I think in those situations. It's interesting I think you could probably well, I don't think for Kawasaki in my example would come back and say hey That's our beats, but yeah, it's interesting. I mean in theory Yeah, in theory someone else could replicate it if they wanted right? Yeah. Yeah Well, you better get to writing immediately with your cover with your toy But you know, it's the tone I guess it it's it's also like You know everyone in every city knows Probably in some scenario where there's a band where there's maybe a couple bands who have like the same name where it's just a coincidence I've seen that like grown up with a couple bands and then like it's almost like whoever gets there first and Gets biggest kind of gets the claim on on one whatever maybe the song or the band, you know like The name but so maybe it's kind of like oh you're copying Song X if you're using this Kawasaki toy drum and it's like, you know Well, if they did it first then You you stake your claim. Yeah, and that's a great point. I always say it's sort of like first to market We would say that right like it's same with like certain ideas, right? Like if you've invented something, you know Like there was other companies that had and came out with mp3 players before, you know Apple came out with like the iPod, but what what Apple went to market first with like the best, right? So everyone all of a sudden all the other MP3 players were just dead You know dead to the world because you know, it was just yeah, that's exactly right. It was just the best Yeah, that was a weird period with with all those mp3 players that were just kind of hard to connect and it would like It would like never quite work right and it would hold like ten songs You'd like get one for like a birthday or Christmas present and it just like never got used Those were the day. Yeah. Yeah, and they get they could hold like two albums Yeah, you had to like you had to pick your best two albums and just keep cycling through. Yeah. Yeah. All right So I have a couple more questions Kind of they're both very different. So I'll start with one that's on topic of everything. We've been talking about How can a drummer? Maybe let's assume that They have a little bit of musical ability on on other, you know instruments What can a drummer do to make themselves be more? Proactive in the songwriting process or just more, you know Not have to deal with these problems of let's say you do work playing a band and there's a bunch of copyright Issues and you don't want to just be the you know, it's the age-old story of like The the drummer is driving in like a Ford Taurus or something and the singer's in a Ferrari Not that there's anything wrong with Ford Taurus's but Of course, but you know just as an entertainment lawyer, what should drummers do to maybe Stick up for themselves or what can they say to like, you know say no no no I did contribute for this arrangement what like I don't really play I can play other instruments But in bands I have never really said like I got a riff I mean a kind of have but it's more like hey Let's go to a and then see and then back to be and then do the bridge and I would contribute like that What should we as drummers do to kind of get our stick our neck out a little bit and say I want to be on the credits Well, it's a great question. I mean, I think it really depends on the band, right? I mean like again if you're if you're Well, if you're the chili peppers, I mean Chad Smith, you know He's always there writing from the outset and kind of like jamming with the weather flea or fuchante Whoever whoever's in the band on guitar You know But then if you're if you're sort of your Charlie Watts, I mean, you know Keith and Mick are working away on songs and they bring it in and then Charlie lays down his thing And so it wouldn't make sense for him to be like, hey, I want to be there when you're when you're you know strumming on guitar It's really I don't know band dynamics are so interesting and and I know that firsthand except been in one first Well one bad son's been together for 17 years and I was in a band before that for another six years But you know band dynamics, we could do a whole podcast on band dynamics, you know But so I guess I mean really to me I Think like some drummers such as myself, you know can can write songs, you know on guitar I think that does help because I mean if we look at just the strict definition of songwriting, I mean It really, you know if you're if you're strumming chords on a guitar with your other band members Then you're helping shape those chords and that that could definitely be more songwriting But let's say you're not you can't play guitar or you don't want to or whatever I'm I think just contributing to the overall vision of where the song's going I think is quite helpful, right? I think that's that's a great point. Let me ask this too So we we talk about this of like credits and songwriting credits and and all this stuff And and I've done some as an engineer recordings with this group that I've worked with for a long time Just for work where they call me in and I engineer it and and before I leave one of the film The that's a family of musicians and they are already Putting my information in as the engineer on like all muse or like whatever ass cap and all these things and they're They're they're on it. So why don't you explain a little bit about what actually It's not just like, you know Your guitar your singer Joe is like writing on a piece of paper I say I wrote this song What does that actually do like where do you actually like that whole back end of like kind of the credits and all that stuff? How does that work? Yeah, it's quite important like it's more important to be Registered with you know, ask app or BMI or in candidates called so can like that's way more important than being listed on the CD you know like or I Guess are on the website or on Spotify like you know, like actual credit in terms of like outward recognition Doesn't matter nearly as much as actually being registered, right? So Yeah, I mean you lot you become a member of either ask app or BMI in in America And so can in Canada and you register the songs, right? So as a band if you say you're at a ten song album you go and register all those ten songs with the appropriate writers and then the splits and then in theory like every time That song gets performed anywhere like could be on radio. It could be in a mall It could be at in a movie Whatever like anytime that song is performed you will get paid as a writer. So I feel like songwriting is and I've said this often like in the last few years like to different while on in interviews and on podcasts, I mean songwriting is never been more valuable because You know, we talked again about the two copyrights is in the recording and in the songwriting and in the golden days Like in the old days when when records sold like crazy He had million selling selling records like that generated money for the copy of the sound recording copyright So if you own the if you if your record label, that's when you made all the money these days records don't sell like they used to of course, but Music is being used and performed more than ever, right? So that generates money for whoever wrote the songs So being a songwriter like it's just never been more valuable And I do a lot of big negotiations for big publishing deals and that's dealing with you know songwriting. Yeah So, yeah, I mean, I think I think it's never been a better time to be a songwriter So as a drummer again, if you can contribute to the songwriting and it's in a real and meaningful way then I highly recommend it Yeah, and maybe this is like a call to action for drummers out there who do contribute Who maybe aren't as business minded for them to kind of maybe like look at the back end and like, you know Maybe have a discussion with let's say the guitarist or the singer is the one who's actually submitting For the licensing or whatever for ASCAP or BMI or wherever you are in the world to maybe speak up and say hey What's the share like because maybe You've been naive up until this point and you're not really on top of the actual like who's getting what because it's kind of it's never I mean, maybe it is if you just you need to get it out of the way You need to have the conversation be done with it move on So maybe this is if you're listening to this and that's you maybe this is a wake-up call to kind of like be like wait, what is this percentage because people who are much much much smarter than me who are massive humongous world-renowned musicians have had battles and legal issues that are of legend So if they have trouble with it And I imagine if you're like me, maybe it's like, oh, it's time to look at this If you're in a position where you never know a song could blow up So get ahead of it. Yeah, I think you're so right, Bart And like at the heart of it is just have the discussion, right? Like and I think these are like band discussions that I always recommend be had And it's not only bands. I mean it also could be just co-writing with someone else So it's not in your band or whatever I mean you have these open and honest discussions because it's like it happens all the time where a song does start blowing up And then you try to have these discussions and you find out actually know We're not giving you any songwriting because you're just the drummer quote-unquote. Yeah, and then it's like, oh, well, that wasn't my understanding I thought that I was contributing, you know, yeah, and then it gets kind of messy, you know And I think that I mean just like any relationship. It's like open communication is key If you're in a band, especially like you got to have these discussions Otherwise, it's just gonna be awkward when someday you need to have the discussions instead of doing them, you know voluntarily so It just it makes things instead of making it sort of awkward. I think it actually makes it less awkward by having the discussion Yeah, I would agree completely. I mean you you're saving yourself a whole bunch of heartache Down the road. So All right, and then what I was talking about before about having a question that was completely, you know kind of different than this performance based stuff is we've had some discussion on the podcast before about issues and things with copyright and and Trademark stuff, which I don't think that's I think sometimes people confuse copyright and trademark So maybe we can kind of define that a little bit as well But with brands where or the lug casing on a DW kit with the turret kind of round Lug and then at the same time Heyman drums in England were you using that same round badge and There's once you go across the ocean you kind of have to have these these it's more of a patent thing Which I realize is a completely different, you know field of law, but we've talked about that on the show before where there's you know If you're in business and you're you got it You got to stay on top of these these patents and there's bootleggers making things I know the pro-logics guys the practice pads We're talking about people bootlegging it in China and selling it on now I think Amazon so that whole thing of copyright and patent and trademark Is is a whole world in itself. Do you ever have any experience with stuff like that? Yeah, we do like we do a lot of trademarks patents like not so much because for patent you have to like be a patent agent And it's more like more of a science background, but I mean there's people Yeah, I refer like I've got clients that do want to get a patent. I just refer them somewhere else, but But yeah, I think it's really You know For trademarks, that's different like if you got a brand you got to protect it, right? So go back to the Rolling Stones because they're just a great reference and You know the stones like they you can bet they've they make Millions and millions a year from you know the tongue the tongue and lips logo Plus they probably have several trademarks on the name itself, but also, you know I'm sure they've got tons of different things. They've got trademarks. So Same with AC DC like you know that that logo is you bet that's making millions a year And I think at some point if your band is succeeding like it makes definitely makes sense to trademark your your band name Yeah, and there you hear those stories too about Like what is it where like the Nike logo they paid the the woman who designed it like $30 or something like that? I can't remember already exactly what it was, but it was something like that where Artists everyone needs to just like but you know, I mean to be perfectly honest You don't think like that up front You don't it's sometimes it's hard to think like oh this band is gonna be I'll do your logo and then Oh, yeah, you'd pay me work for hire or whatever I guess it's just important to really treat everything like it could be huge and and have paperwork and protect yourself You know, which is easier said than done sometimes on a daily basis Yeah, I find in general. I mean what I think a lot of people and This goes for your US listeners as well Like reach out to me reach out to any entertainment lawyer that you trust with questions, right? You know, I'm not I think people don't they're afraid to reach out to lawyers because they're worried about getting like a big bill Or something in the mail that doesn't happen like I mean, that doesn't happen with me Anyways, I mean, you know if you got a question shoot me an email go to lawyer drummer comm shoot me a message and Like wherever you're at in your career It may make sense to have like to get a contract to get a co-writer agreement or a band agreement or whatever Or maybe it doesn't maybe I say don't worry about it right now You're probably safe to not have anything and at least you get that peace of mind, you know Yeah, you hear their band to go, dude, I wouldn't worry about it No, I'm kidding now So What is a typical breakdown like I'm talking like, you know An average of how it works with let's not say I mean, I I know there's bands like the chili peppers or where they're like They're like brothers. They're like they've been through everything together. They're gonna do it, you know 25 members 2020 2020 and But what is a typical breakdown of a band that's you know, very tight all that stuff But the singer writes most of the songs the guitarist comes up with his guitar riffs kind of a prototypical Band and the drummer does contribute a little bit. They're really a member Of the band, but what is a typical breakdown of percentages that you you see in those cases? well, I mean again like it's It really it's that I go back to that spectrum because it really like a lot of times I do see equal split across the board If that makes sense then a lot of times I'll see again sort of the Bob Dylan model where it's like one person's doing everything They're bringing songs fully developed into the band and then saying to the band like, you know Play your instrument on this and let's make it a recording and they get nothing And then I do see like the stone sort of setups where it's like two people are doing all the work all the writing And they have like a rhythm section, for example, who doesn't do the writing and But then again, that's where I think you need a band agreement because if you're in a band because When it comes to live revenues like that You almost always like live revenues are split equally because everyone's out on the road making the same sacrifices or whatever, right? But but not always sometimes like one member is invested a bunch of money or one member Bought the van or whatever or or one member's like the real it's their their band and they've got sort of hired guns On two earth them. So it really it really depends on situation But which I know is a very lawyerly answer, but it really is yeah, like I've just seen it I've seen I say this all the time that there's no two bands that are the same and I mean that like Even if you look at the the the big bands that I gave as examples like they're all so different, right? I mean the who is so different than the Stones and they're so different than the Beatles and you know They're so different than Pearl Jam, you know, like it's it's all over the map. So I think The important thing at the outset against how these discussions and say listen I think we should be splitting equal songwriting or or I don't think we should like whatever the case is Had those discussions, you know, yeah Well, and then that raises the question to of when it comes to recordings So I personally have played on you know a ton of sessions just being a guy who works at a studio And I'm there and they use me as a drummer So I've done a fair amount of like, you know, hey come down and play on these people's you know songs I Signed something that's like a work for hire. That's like you're getting $50 an hour or guarantee of two hours Which you know again just for like a Tuesday for an hour you get a hundred bucks. That's great But there's some that I've done where they're like commercial things where they play on TV and radio like 20 times a day and I made a hundred bucks and but it's playing constantly. I realize though. It's like a radio thing It's like a brand and it's like a commercial It's got to be different though if you are Like Ash Soan or one of these huge Matt Chamberlain where you're playing on these mega records In those cases, do they typically get like a percentage of the sales or Josh freeze or whoever like, you know, these session Goliaths How does that typically work with like breakdowns that you're aware of do they get more of a percentage of the Physical copies sold what I find in those situations that I doubt they would almost Without exception. I doubt they'd get a cut of like record sales. I mean maybe if they were You know in some situations, but I don't think that's the norm But what they would get and what's a really important revenue stream even for you like anyone like you said you put you playing on stuff That's gonna be in commercials unless they unless they try to get you to waive these rights You like get you should get your neighboring rights royalties so So neighbor rights like that's a lot of times you get sound exchange revenues. So So like actra and BMI pay the songwriters, but you know, neighboring rights cover the performers on a recording. So As a drummer Like if you're not the songwriter then okay, fine. We can accept that but you should be getting performance performance revenues so from from sound exchange, etc. So I Would say just do some do some research on neighboring rights and make sure like when you register Like like sound exchange has set aside like they've said that a producer is a performer You know the main vocalist is a performer, but also like the side musicians are performers So like you're entitled to those revenues and like I've got some clients who and they're not even like household name clients They're they made like 80 grand last year on sound exchange revenues If and a lot of that comes from if you get played on satellite radio like on Sirius XM So again, you know, if you're doing a bunch of session records a drummer I think you should look into neighbor rights and see if you see if you should get a cut of that for sure Yeah, well, I'm just looking at this and again, I'm not trying to rock the boat or anything I'm just it's just interesting because it says, you know without further come blah blah blah blah Exclusively without further compensation royalties residuals and are there any other payments or consideration otherwise? expressed therein and This is just something where like every musician who plays on him comes in and just I guess that's more of a straight work for hire You came in you played for two hours. You got paid It ends there, which I have to think is fairly common because I mean again, these are like You know pretty cut and dry sessions that being said there are other sessions that happen that are That I've never actually done one but where they're like Union and they they pay differently for singers and stuff But that's not the case with these so maybe I need to think about my life more And maybe in some situations they want you to waive these rights So you're not gonna get any cut of those but yeah, I think overall. I mean, I think you should be entitled to that Yeah Okay, well, I got a legal battle to fight here So well, why don't we I mean this has just been awesome the time just flew by and there's there's this is a cool episode Yeah, that is just chalked full of stuff So Kurt is kind enough to maybe hang out for another couple minutes here and Kurt what I'd love to talk about maybe is just like Talk some drum and hear about your you know your kit and all this stuff and maybe like what you what you play and Maybe you as a drummer for you know 10 minutes or whatever and and your gear and we can talk about maybe some cool cases that you've Worked on or maybe some issues that have come up with real life scenarios with you know Obviously not Zeppelin and the who and stuff. I might imagine in your situation, but like like, you know, real deal every day Musicians who are battling it. So if you're okay, Kurt, I'd love to have you stick around after this and we'll have that little bonus talk That'd be great. Yeah, I'd love it. Cool. So if you want to hear that bonus conversation or anything else you guys can go to drumhistorypodcast.com and click the patreon bonus link and Once you're there, you'll see kind of you know months and months of back back to episodes Which are really really cool. So Yeah, Kurt, why don't you plug your band a little bit here your website where people can find you if they have like a Legal question and might lead to a client and it might lead to the next we will rock you or something like that People find you know that stuff. Yeah, I honestly the easiest is just like just go to lawyer drummer calm Or just on Instagram just lawyer drummer and like I mean the big thing I Think part of what's got me, you know, some followers around the world is I'm always writing articles on you know cutting edge issues in the music biz right and I Start doing this like a decade ago and no one cared at first and I kept doing it for a decade And what I realized is that like a lot of lawyers out there don't want to share this information because for whatever reason I don't know why maybe they don't they don't think they should share it or whatever I mean to me I had all these questions about the music biz, you know, like should I give my producer songwriting? credits or you know What constitutes songwriting, you know, and I couldn't find the answer. So I thought well, I better I better change that so I wrote the articles did the research and Now the articles get like as you saw when you searched, you know, my site came up Which is to me it blows my mind because again, it started with very humble beginnings So anyways, I mean, I think there'd be lots of articles just go to the articles tab And there's probably a ton of articles that are gonna apply to you whoever is listening out there Yeah, and yeah, I'm happy to help and shoot me a message and people are often surprised that they messaged me and I get back to them So well, you know and honestly, I like looking at your at this article and it's almost like when you're looking at a recipe I always go down to the comments and see someone says whoa, there was way too much salt Don't put that much in so on your site I like looking at the comments and you're pretty much answering everyone people are having really good questions and You know, just like what about MIDI beats? What about copying this and you're really kind of communicating with people here So all about that community. I mean, that's that's how drummers drummers roll So I'm glad you're keeping it going on your website Well, thanks. I appreciate it and again, that's lawyer drummer calm and it's Kurt doll and then what about your band? Where can people find your band? Yeah, so I mean one bad son. I mean check us out on Spotify or YouTube and Yeah, we've you know, if you like rock and roll like in the vein of I don't know Zeppelin or Soundgarden or whatever I mean like we're a hard rock band. So yeah, check it out. Yeah, cool one bad son S-O-N I will be listening tonight and And enjoying it with all you know have my son. He loves to listen to heavy stuff and jump around So we'll do that. But um, okay, ha everyone again, check out the patreon bonus episode and Yeah, Kurt. Thank you for being here. Thanks so much. I appreciate it, man If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future Until next time keep on learning