 to have a strong opinion on the future and Have in mind that you know climate change is real So it's not like that we have much of a chance that we can just experiment and like yeah Let's see what 2035 brings us. No, I mean this future has to be sustainable It has to be you know the Keta generation. It has to be adopted by chance that and then have a very Educated guests like okay, this is what I want to grow up to and then work backwards and like if if that means my future as a Company or as an individual I can do that next year next month tomorrow to go at least the first step into that direction Max Giordano is my guest on this episode of inside ideas brought to you by 1.5 media and innovators magazine Max is a good friend of mine. We've known each other for a while through kidternet and some other Areas will kind of touch upon later in the show But max is a digital strategist and creative with a 25 plus year track record in innovative digital projects Max started his career in the digital Stone Age ID media Oktengesellschaft in the mid 90s and was involved in numerous internationally awarded digital projects like Volkswagen's digital launch campaign for the new beetle Launch of wallpaper magazine online Sony Europe and swatch. He played a vital role establishing Site Cosmos the leading social network in the UK and Germany at the time he is truly a digital innovative Futurist rock star in 2000 max joined meta-designed AG's Management board and was in charge of the digital unit at meta-designed and he was involved in Europe's first mobile projects for clients like NTT DoCo Moe's iMode and Telefonica Yes, there were mobile projects in 2001 and max became an evangelist for mobile services Many moons before the iPhone was launched This early passion for mobile led to him becoming the co-founder and managing partner of Icon mobile in 2003 which was one of the first mobile centric agencies worldwide Max helped to grow the company from four founders to more than 200 employees With offices in Berlin Tokyo Sydney London and New York as a product Colleague Max was responsible for one of the first mobile servers in 2004 and developed mobile marketing and advertising formats for the likes of MSN O2 and Yahoo Basically, he has worked with the iconic companies of our world Apple t-mobile orange and he was With one of the world's largest agency networks and it was invited to join pro seban, which is a European German Satellite one digital as a member of the management board He was in charge of mobile games and innovations for them as one of Europe's leading Media companies at the time He's launched ISO apps and numerous under things I could go on and on because he's been around for a while and any of those of you My listeners who have seen or heard him speak before whether that's DLD or for Mercedes or MTV or universal music He has been involved with projects from Lady Gaga and 50 cents video offerings and on and on Lego Apple Lufthansa Volkswagen Daimler. I hope you're getting the picture Red Bull Deutschland telecom so the guru the rock star is sitting across for me. He's getting red Yeah, I'm to the show max. I appreciate it. Thanks. Goodness. I Condensed that 36 page biography down to a couple paragraphs, but I'm so glad to have you here, brother Thanks. Oh You're thanks but was was that the longest introduction you ever had to do No, I've had some scientists on with much longer longer Some 70 plus year old scientists and biologists on and they have a huge huge list of accolades and Accreditations. Oh, I'm so sorry. I should have wrapped it up in like in like three sentences But yeah, you just made me feel very old I think the the matter of fact that it's a long list is that I'm simply working since 25 years in Digital innovation and over the years you just you know have all these clients and all these different relationships So that's just why the list is so long But in a nutshell, I would consider myself a creative strategist and I'm really passionate about Co-creating futures together with clients. So that's the that's the very short form who I am And you do a fabulous job at that everybody who knows you everybody who's worked with you as Static and very excited to To get your not only drive wisdom and your knowledge and and your insight to help them Move forward and these digital transitions and and getting into the future. We first met live at One of the M. Love events for Harold Knighthart and then at Kinner net and Avalon in France Which was a fabulous event and I've heard you speak numerous times since we're on the faculty and one of founding members of future IO Institute and kind of advise and do do many things together I'm so blessed to have received your wisdom and your help over the years where you come mark your Your presentation is too long. You've got too many slides. Cut it down. Please make it shorter you know, give us the give us the short version and What what you didn't know is that I was just taking a page out of your book because I've seen your presentations You you know the the the movie Fast and Furious You've ever seen one of max presentations. You'll know what I mean He he lets you drink from the fire hose of the future of where we're going and how things are working and how the youth and Gen Zed of our world Will be working and living in the future. And so I really thank you for that and I think our brain works alike in many ways like that We're kind of systems thinkers and thinking complexities and really try to push these models out to the boundary of the future My first question for you really is how have you weathered this pandemic since I last saw you and all these Years of experience that you've had an innovation of future and these transformations Has any of that helped you prepare or whether this pandemic a little bit better or how have you been catch us up to speed? Yeah, I mean I will I mean first of all, thanks. You've been too kind to know to mention all these things and By by the way, I highly appreciate your input in your talks And I've seen you a couple of times and for me It was really astonishing to see the progress from you know the first time I saw you I it was pure horror for me like damn. We are screwed like, you know, we are And I mean that in a positive way what you ended up with me is like this notion of we have to change So that was really really there and then over time how you You know how it involved towards like look and here are some strategies and what I will never forget is when you say stuff like Even if we slow down we go into the wrong direction And that made me think like yeah, actually he's right. I mean, it's a complete turnover that is needed not just slowing down so I just wanted to Thank you again for for having me appreciate it and in respect of your question Was I prepared yes and no I mean as you know our Lifestyles and you mentioned Kinnanet and I think it's like You know if you take future IO Kinnanet, I would even say Burning Man like all these tribes. I mean, they're somehow connected Most of us of course are totally used to work as digital nomads So we are used to working anywhere where there is an internet connection with our laptops We are used to work in agile Environments and in teams. I mean as a matter of fact, I had projects where you have 10-15 different people and you never see each other and they're coming from all over So that is a pretty good preparation for a lockdown also if you work in a agile environment if you do your Your daily stand-ups and your routines and you have all the software in place So yes, that came as a as a big preparation However, I have to say I think yeah, most of us have been surprised how how fast it goes and on a Psychological level. I mean there's this amazing podcast from Tim Hartford cautionary tales. I Can highly recommend it because he spent I think at least six episodes Very thoughtfully around, you know, not only COVID but going back to history like hurricane Katrina I mean New Orleans. I mean they were aware That you know a hurricane is a real threat to New Orleans. They knew it. They had a minor one before and Yet they didn't see it coming. They didn't prepare. Nothing was in place. And so he goes back to history I mean even to you know influenza and how we dealt with with the past in the Mid-century and stuff like that. So it's in the middle age. So it's really interesting to see Somehow we know things and then something in our psychology is is holding us back to do Probably very traumatic steps. So I mean to fast forward 2020 As you know with Kinnonet, I mean we've discussed it super early I mean as soon as there was something happening in China Our Kinnonet chats, you know, they exploded like oh, this is serious. This is not the influencer This is far more serious. This will have a major impact And you're part of this conversation And still you're booking yourself a ticket to South by Southwest You know because somehow it's like, yeah, you know, it's China and let's see and maybe in margin And then it's just like, you know, what we experienced with these exponential developments and for me, it's a perfect metaphor Yeah, one two four eight sixteen these exponential steps you hear about it in China You you read about it. It's like oh, okay. Hmm. That's okay. We have to take that seriously, but then it's 1632 64 Mobile world conference cancelled in Barcelona. Oh, wow, this is serious And then, yeah, and then it just hit me With this exponential curve like everyone else. But as I've said Because of my work was already vastly remote and I'm used to work in these agile environments and with these stand-ups for me It was relatively easy to cope with that And now I'm just improvising like anyone else like So from From less physical meetings to all these zoom calls and and microsoft teams calls from You know offline events where you do Corporate workshops and co-creation design thinking more to online collaborative stuff. So You've brought out some wonderful tools or helped people during this time with some different tools and some abilities to Continue business continue meetings to have some digital tools and services as well that I really appreciate and like but have Have you realized that you're getting more you've gotten more busy during this time that you're actually working more than usual and That's one question and the other question really is Are you liking this kind of a transition to even more these digital Tools or are you are you thinking that you're watching the hollywood squares or the muppet show? You know with the all the little the all the little boxes or you know, is there any insights in that what what You're easing into or or can you give us maybe some foresight of some new things that might be emerging or that we could expect out of this as well? Yeah Yeah, it it it comes in various flavors. I I do have to say and I read it the other day. There is this amazing study When in london was there was a tube strike. I think like 10 15 years ago And as you know, I mean everyone in london commutes to work with with with the tubes and the buses and etc so there was this major strike and People have been forced out of the blue to completely re-change their roots like instead of going You know, there's one whatever Piccadilly line and change once all of a sudden you have to change twice You need to take a bus or walk But my point is with the study what was for me it really blew my mind is that after the strike, you know, like 15 roughly stuck with this new route So it basically tells you like look for years You're taking the same paths and then something happens Like an outside event happens and then you realize wait a second. Not everything is bad. Actually changing here means You know, maybe I take a bus and I see more or maybe I can do grocery shopping or maybe I walk and it's a little bit of a workout or You know, maybe this scene this this route is way more scenery or whatever so 15 percent Were forced like of those who were forced said like oh the new thing the new normal isn't that bad and So for me, it's it's a perfect metaphor for what we're experiencing right now. I mean Take these typical business meetings like hey mark. Can you come to berlin friday three o'clock? It's really important. You have to meet this guy that guy Let's have a you know a really cool meeting for an hour and you take the train or You take the plane from uni We've all had that and I think this is this is gone And that's for the better So this is exactly these 15 percent london tube strike where you realize Wait a second Just to get to know someone To have a status meeting to discuss a project. I can do that remotely really well So I think that's the positive side less travel less business travel more focused meetings You know meetings where you need to be prepared and it's clear who's doing what afterwards and so I think that's something on on on the positive side and Your first question was like, yeah, do I feel stressed out and stuff like that? Yeah, absolutely because it's like almost like a sinus curve like a pendulum Once the world went full remote work from home Like yourself like everyone we've just been in all these calls throughout the day and Basically, we felt and like wait a second. It can't be that it's Afternoon, I haven't had breakfast. I'm still in my pajama I haven't even been to the mailbox. I and yeah, and I think now If you ask me personally, I think I found now a good mixture like I'm You know, I'm I'm very strict with timing. So, you know, if we say like Let's have this call and it's between five people and if it's for an hour, it should really end at an hour I'm taking my breaks. So, you know, I need to be off the camera I need this work life balance. So like even if it means going for yoga or sports or for a walk with the dog during the daytime It also means like, you know, switching off video I think that's somehow really interesting that most who are now so used to video like You know, I you know, taking the example of our friend harald with future. I oh, I know him inside out. He's a great friend If we have a proper business call, I don't need to see him I can do it, you know on my phone. Yeah, yeah What's the big advantage and and people tend to forget that, uh, you know, I can stand up I can go to the garden. I can take the dog and still be present with harald and have a meaningful conversation But without being stuck to You know this the screen and so So those are some yeah, so so in a nutshell, um, I'm I'm I'm doing good. I realized stuff that is You know, I'm we shouldn't say that's positive about this pandemic because of course it's it's horrible and it's a tragedy, but You know from a work perspective me personally some things are changed for the better less business travel You know, you know more opportunities to work internationally I mean if if you do an online event you can ask speakers who you would never ever be able to fly in You have them now on a zoom call or or you know on a video call And I think you know with the In german we say Entschleunigung I don't know in english the You know taking the break. I think that's what you know, like like a full break This is what actually the planet and us probably also needed. It makes you Reflect on what's really important and you know, what's what's not so necessary. What what do you miss about travel? So for me, I'm also very reflective I've mentioned the business meetings I mean, I don't miss them at all to you know to to go there for an hour meeting I do miss travel travel like going to kina net in france and Meeting new friends and meeting old friends. So you start like me. I started to realize You know, what I really really miss what I what I can compensate with virtual stuff What I can't wait to to go back to it's a very I think it's a very Yeah, it's a very good putistic Exercise actually Thanks for giving us the update and letting my listeners know this inside and and you you can decide this I don't want to reveal too much of your personal but you you are pretty disciplined and have a routine as far as your yoga and supplements and and doing a little exercise and getting out and walking your dog and and things like that Um That that I think is really interesting as as far as that discipline and routines during a time like this That you find a new way to to build them in are so so vital because it can it can really Really change If you give those up now that you're working solely from home or digitally That uh, you don't get that me time to to recharge and to do that But are there any of those things you'd like to share with us that have really been A help for you or that you've realized this boy. I think thankfully I was doing those before and they've really helped me even Get through this time better Yeah, absolutely. I mean It's not only about me. I think the you know, the biggest misconceptions about Creative people and I would consider myself a creative person. You know, I I'm really not good in excel I mean I get You know, you don't want me to work on excel and I'm I'm not the best project lead you can imagine I'm I'm really good in strategy and in creative work and people with this creative Yeah, environment, you know, the biggest misconception is that people like myself are totally chaotic. So You know, when people see my my desk in a in a work environment, um, you know, they're like, yeah I'm I'm the cliche. It's it's totally chaotic it's You know, and and if I work creatively with a client, I mean this energy sparks fly and like how about this and we can do that and why don't we do a pop-up location and we do Old shipping containers and we remodel them and we do this So people usually think that I'm Super chaotic, but as a matter of fact, um I'm way more disciplined than people imagine because for me first of all, it helps to manage the chaos And second, um, you know, it helps you to prioritize. So I have I have fairly I'm I'm I'm quite strict. I mean it starts with getting up early That was never a problem for me in my entire life. Like I never, you know, I was never the school boy who Oh, it's six o'clock. I mean, I always was an early riser And the older I get the less sleep I need for the biological reasons And usually I'm up around like four or five the latest. So I start my day Really early and I I like that the world, you know sleeps You don't get emails. You you you definitely don't get phone calls And for me, it's a it's a slow way to start, you know, I I would hate the feeling like, oh alarm clock. First of all, I never I never need an alarm clock Even if I have a super early morning, you know, if I go to bed and I know I have to wake up for whatever reasons, I will wake up Compare that to an alarm clock. Oh, damn. It's 8 30. Uh, I need to be in this meeting. I mean, I don't want to Start stress. So I'm taking my time in the morning. Um, I'm still practicing my meditation and I think it will take me another 20 years to master that I I'm horrible on that, but you know, again technology helps. So I don't know if I have it here somewhere Yeah, you know the the muse headband. Um, it's it really helps me to You know to be more focused. I'm I'm using apps like headspace and calm. So I'm Meditation really became a huge part of my morning like huge not in length Because I'm still practicing and still for me 15 minutes of meditation is is is a horrible experience But it takes a, you know, no matter even if I have a super early train or flight. I'll take these 10 15 minutes. Um Yoga because in my age if I don't do something around the body, you know the back aches and the knee aches And yeah, like to have these these You know really these breaks like for walking the dog or doing sports have become really really important and then Just to finish on this these these little hacks. Um, Like I've said, I'm super disciplined and in work, you know, then there I'm like really like a machine like I love these pomodoro techniques, for instance, where you focus 20 minutes on something so I said that in in the past often to colleagues if I you know, if I'm working concentrated on something and I need something from A colleague and if I write her on slack, for instance I never expect Immediately a response for me. It's scary. It's super scary if people you you know that feeling you write someone on slack And then 20 seconds later you have the answer and I'm like, dude You should, you know There's no three in the morning. You should be sleeping or you know, it's lunchtime. Whatever Exactly. Exactly. So so many times I had to tell colleagues like look If I'm up at 6 a.m. And if I'm writing you an email, it doesn't mean you need to reply before you had breakfast I don't expect the answer right away if I write you on slack and you know, if it would be urgent I would say so but you know, you know what I mean? So I'm taking really like I'm really focused. So if I'm 20 minutes, you know on linkedin, you know getting some inspiration maybe answering some some incoming Mails, whatever it's 20 minutes of linkedin and you can't call me. I will not check emails. I mean Nothing will disturb you from those 20 minutes and then after that I'll take a you know Two or three minute break and then I do 20 minutes of emails and in that time again, nothing can Can can can disturb me and I have my phone Phone calls scheduled out. So in those 20 minutes doing calls. I mean, I'm not checking emails. So Working focused like really having like these little hacks and you mentioned with last but not least you mentioned with the body stuff with the food and the nutrition Yeah, I mean the older I get the more important it gets. I mean, we all started young and you know, like the 16 hours days and like junk food And the older you get you realize like wait a second after an Italian lunch break and the big pasta I'm dead. I can sleep for an hour. I I can't work. So Maybe it's something with the pasta Uh, and then you realize the you know, how how food how how different it is. Um, what you consume Even down to a health aspect like staying healthy, like, you know, what what food makes you really survive the the influenza season What what food makes you like recover faster? What sort of food is actually good for you and which not so Yeah, it's it's really it became exciting. It became a favorite topic of mine a passion project. Yeah, we've never talked about this The the food and the health aspect but in a lot of respects were were very similar. I I also get up extremely early. It's probably from my Farming family background somehow, but I also don't use an alarm clock. It's just a normal uh a rhythm of how I sleep and I just can get up There's no real big trick as I get older The only trick is as I usually have to go to the bathroom Early in the morning and so that's a beautiful alarm clock to know that's time to get up and stay up I don't go back to bed afterwards, but that's part of getting old And then I really see that as well like Like you mentioned the discipline is important. A lot of people find it scary. So discipline could be a little bit scary It's actually not it's freedom the more disciplined you are The more freedom you have the more time you have in the day the more accomplishments you get During the day and you don't feel depressed because you didn't get something done or that you're behind or you're late if you have that Boy the world is it's so much freedom, but it's also just this fabulous feeling throughout the day and um I Years ago. I was a became a coach to run to britain's fearless living coach and that was One of the things that uh, I would been living before but I really didn't get the understanding of why that is being disciplined having routines and And you know overcoming, you know, there's a certain Amount of time for things that maybe you don't want to do That if you get in a minute or to five minutes of it then then you forget about the pain of starting a project or doing something and then you get into this flow state and and and uh, you know So I really appreciate those those things and hopefully we'll have some other tips throughout our discussion That people can use and apply and and use as takeaways, but I've always seen that and I really appreciate it one other thing that you mentioned is um, you know, not only digital nomad and kind of you do a lot on this uh Humans of new work the future of work, you know working things as well, or you've touched upon it over the years We do a lot with future foresight and also Moonshot thinking Moonshot innovations innovations of the future But but reality of the the thing that I see and maybe you have uh, something that you could you could speak on in this Is that it's really similar to me Like nasa like the european space agency like russia for the sputnik rocket They've been launching rockets in russia from the same historical spot for decades now And uh, if you look at any of their mission control centers, it's not just that one mission control It's controls and and houston and and and california and in russia and and hawaii and different places around the world that people are digitally Video or audio communicating with themselves and doing works But it's also the preparation up to that launch time up to the project completion Where they're not always traveling to those places to get things done that there's a lot of this digital collaboration and and This year during the pandemic, you know, we had the fabulous falcon crew get up to the ISS space station And the difference from the cockpit of you know, the old shutout Apollo cockpits and all the panels and buttons and then you see the new falcon x crew Dragon cockpit and there's like 12 buttons and three touch screens, you know that Transition that digital transition but also ways of doing things a tonus mess lee working and doing this, you know this different type of work is just Something that i've i've i've seen over the years that is very similar to the space industry It's also very similar to the way the united nations works and a lot of respects especially now during the pandemic They're everything's online and digital but In some respects that, you know, we need to make that transition like space x did from this analog system to kind of a better more effective Functioning system and i don't know if you've realized that or seen those connections or similarities or talk about them at all in in your work Yeah I mean the first thing that comes to my mind is because you're referring to moonshots and I'm pretty sure you mentioned it a couple of times with with the famous jfk talk in 61 where We will put the man on the moon and bring safely back and In this decade and do the other things etc etc. I mean This talk I think that's one of the most inspiring. It's a very short talk and who you know It's it's really worthwhile going back on youtube and and watch it. It's just like a few minutes that I think that are super relevant and In there he says We do it not because they're easy because but because they are hard And because they are hard They help us to to be better organized And you know for me that's that's always so interesting to see for me Covid the you know the pandemic it's almost like a search light. It's a radar on things that are not going so well and You know, it it's almost like an outside event that helps you to realize Our it infrastructure is not that modern. I mean We say people work from home, but they can't access their emails So there is a problem. So the search light says like oh you have to change something You know, whether you had agile Methodologies in place. I mean is your team Working agile and if do you have for instance a daily stand-up or not? Do you have like a like in product management? How you do your thing? So I think We currently all of us no matter which industry really no matter which industries We have the big search light now in our organizations and we immediately immediately realize, okay We should invest in something like slack microsoft teams. Oh, we We need to we need to get some agile coaches in we need to change the way we are building products But also resilient leaderships, you know, you realize and I've seen within my client base and my partners the entire range from Being a super scared, you know, like turmoil chaotic like You know, like literally being completely shocked in in how you call it like being static, you know Like the the rabbit before the snake the entire range to the type of leadership that is You know, you know what? This is a challenge. We will overcome Like Churchill said every every, you know, don't let the good crisis go to waste. There is a chance for us and you start to do Weekly town halls with everyone you start to have virtual coffee breaks with with With with colleagues You start to think like, oh, maybe I should send something to the team Oh, we should do a virtual event. We should do a party. We should do x y set So, you know, I think it brings out the best and the worst of us and in respect of your question Yeah, we we are now forced to to go these hard ways and as jfk said It is a good exercise because because it's so hard it's um It forces us to think outside the box. It forces us to reconsider. Oh, we've been doing it 20 years Why change and now, you know, you're forced You know, very very very simple example. Um, I worked with, um, you know Within one segment with the sales department and their way to do sales was like, oh, we're doing it Since 20 years, it's the same. We go there. You know, we show the product. We have a nice conversation We leave the sample. We leave the leaflet. I mean, that's how sales does forget about digital and I'm like, okay but Wouldn't it be, you know, couldn't be digital? I mean with an ipad app or maybe like a b2b website I mean, couldn't we do more and but no, we don't need it and now you have a lockdown And now you have the same people Not able to go physically somewhere and it's yeah, this is then the hard way like, okay, wait a second Yes, we need something. So the searchlight is on. We need to digitize sales We need to come up with new solution and fast We need that in a few weeks because we have zero sales like zero sales from the one day to the other Because we can't go physically somewhere problem That's a huge problem. That's a big wake-up call as well and we've we've seen that that those stationary companies that don't have something Whether it's a digital transformation or the sustainable future built into their business model somehow Are really struggling and having a difficult time during this time of the pandemic, but also Black Lives Matters Beirut The hurricane Laura and You know, which is just the aftermath of Katrina. Basically, it's the new Louisiana hurricane That they're just not prepared because they don't have a resilient business model. They don't have anything digital so there's no infrastructure there to to help them in a form of crisis and It's always about cost and money and it's difficult to do and and that we've done it this way. So why should we change? We need to stop waiting for the future be to be delivered to us We need to actually be a little bit and not be reactionary. We should be Preventive we should be have foresight to have those infrastructures in place Because actually even in times where everything's going good. It's a better business model brings better returns The investments are better. It's really a better model and and so that this This way. Well, we're not going to evolve. We're not going to change that way of thinking is just Out outdated and yeah, it it is hard. Sometimes that transition is hard, but it's so necessary. So I really Appreciate you bringing that up this year started out as for in my opinion as an absolute bang It was going fabulous. We last saw each other Yeah, everyone for everyone the decade of action, you know Everything was calling into place and so much momentum fabric. We saw each other But we saw each other at D we saw each other at DLD in Munich awesome It was awesome. It was the most fabulous thing But just things were just at an exponential pace some commitments some things were going it was just fabulous And then this thing just took the wind out of ourselves, you know the pandemic I really you know now it's we're back into this very hard nationalism Very hard division and that and so my real big first question for you to kind of to Lead into transition to the other things I want to talk about is With all this division with all this nationalism with all these borders and walls and people fighting against each other It's with the pandemic social distancing and mask and etc How would you feel about the total opposite? Are you a global citizen? How would you feel about being a global citizen? What would You think about a world without nations divisions borders walls or divisions of humanity What are your thoughts and feelings on that and how can we not get back to business as usual or to the new normal But how can we do a great reset and actually catapult us into the future where we need to be With the digital transformations and all the things that we've been talking about today, but we've been doing for years I mean Thank you for for bringing that up. I mean those are major topics and maybe I need to You know divide it into two three different points I mean the first thing and the first thing you mentioned and I'm so glad you brought it up is this You know, why are people not moving? Why are they aesthetic? Why they're not innovating? And I think part of that answer is Because it went too well, you know if you're You know, I'm as you can tell by my funny german accent. I'm german You know the you know our favorite industry is probably the automotive industry if you're having record sales You know volkswagen 11 million cars last year If you're in such a position Everything is cool. You're selling six million cars in china 11 million cars cars all over you're printing money So there is no immediate rush for for innovation. Yes tesla is around since Years and yes, you know it they all of you know I think one big misconception is that often people think like corporates are stupid like ah volkswagen hasn't seen it coming or Why is whoever x y said why are they're not reacting to netflix or name any industry? It's it's a big misconception. No, they have good trend scouting. They are aware of these developments But if you're listed on the stock market if you're bringing, you know every three months You have to report your numbers If you're doing really good like record numbers in sales It's super hard to do dramatic changes in innovations I mean, how would you argue that towards the stock market shareholders even to employees like oh Wait, we're building up. We are going full into electric. Whatever You know forget about that. We just sold 11 million combustion engines. You know what I mean so yeah hard number one what I realized is um innovation like one of the The biggest things that hold us back is if things are going really well if if you have record numbers It's hard to be innovative Once you have a burning platform So media industries 10 years ago because the threat was imminent youtube netflix Spotify whatever came google whatever came up. It's an immediate threat of your core business model You have to to to react But with other industries with the food the pharmaceutical automotive But now changing to to the second part what you mentioned with the pandemic Now the threat became a real one and it became a global one. I mean All of a sudden, you know, there is like everyone notices it. I mean from everything around transportation Logistic tourism, but then all these ripple effects was was like super fascinating I mean for instance Very very stupid example if there is no sports Many many media outlets can't report about sports. So they don't have page impressions So the advertising drops from a lot to almost zero Just because there are not people playing in the stadium and you can't report about it I mean, you know better than I do with all the the logistic chains with You know with the oil stuck somewhere on some tanker because you don't know where to put it because people are not driving and So now i'm coming to your big question around global citizenship. I mean absolutely I think every one of us experienced that every one of us experienced that we're in this together you know For me, it's like painfully to think about, you know, I think in Germany We have an amazing system with all the loans and with all I mean with our health system and everything but You know, often I have to think about these individuals I met. I mean you have the world map behind you, but You know, it starts with I'm often in Spain and I think of these really little retail stores that I go to the You know the little tapas place the little Japanese noodle place and I'm like They suffer currently. I don't know if they ever will recover My sister lives in Japan and I'm trying to be there like once a year and I love Tokyo and you know all these little tea shops and these little clothes shops like and I'm like, ah they they will suffer and And then, you know, don't talk about India, Brazil You know these these these countries so dependent on tourism to cut the long story short The way I was I was raised I'm You know, I'm not exaggerating. I'm like super low Working class like my father was an untrained factory worker He didn't had any education because of world war two. My mother was a hair cutter. So I'm I'm not exaggeration I'm really grew up super modest But one very important life lesson that I learned as a kid was, you know, for my parents And I'm I grew up at the south of Germany like a tiny village like, you know, 3000 people For for my parents people were the same. So I never experienced Prejudice pre-judice, you know, I never experienced my parents. Like why is this woman wearing, you know, a scarf a burka or Look at the the foreigner, you know, I never experienced that in the way I was brought up because for this generation of my parents It probably was that after the war it was pure survival and it was just like Getting food on the table And you do that by doing honest work and, you know, have a high moral Compass and, you know, not screwing over others. And so I was raised that way. So I never You know, I never felt estranged to different color of skin or different religions And somehow I'm I'm in my late 40s now You know, as stupid as it sounds, I always had that like you can be you can believe in Jedi Religion, you can be a Buddhist. You can be Muslim For me, it's, you know, all good As long as you're not behaving like an asshole to others I'm super tolerant, but please show that tolerant yourself Um, I I don't care about the color of skin. You can be green blue black because we're all people And it's the same with language and one very very You know biograph. I just told you how I was raised. I think for me from the biography Often I ask myself like why do I light up if I'm traveling? Why do I feel so energetic? Meeting new friends at kino net or at burning man Probably it's because that my parents never left this little town You know, my father was 40 years in the same job at the factory pushing You know buttons at really as a factory worker so for me If Stan calls and says like, hey, can you come to talent and work with me? You know and do a co-creation innovation whatever and like talent sure And then I'm soaking it up like, you know, for me, it's almost like a vacuum. I never been to talent I want to know all about the politics the food the culture I mean, it's almost I'm I'm almost obsessed with wikipedia. So, you know, I'm going in through talent with wikipedia and I read up history and then You know people like standard. You also know so dearly. I'm I'm You know having conversations about his grandparents and For me, it's like wow and then You know, I really I'm I'm super grateful for having that opportunity because I know that I'm blessed on that, you know I'm I'm not making millions with my work But you know for having a good Day rate having interesting jobs and the opportunity to see the world I mean, that's how much more of a reward you want to get Learn about cultures learn about other people And hopefully leave, you know, hopefully leave something behind whether it's in You know in a business sense, whether it's an interesting innovation project Or as a human being whether it's by Influencing people to do maybe a little change I think that that is so beautiful the way you you describe that what I what I've experienced you might have experienced this over the years is that um, I I did hundreds of events every single year and the events like uh, internet events like dld events like Thailand management association or sustainable brands. Um trying to think of some other ones When when you travel to those locations Yeah, it's an event and it's an Unconference and you speak and and you do Different things. So it's kind of a work thing But you get to meet the people you get to exchange with them you you uh, it's not 17 or 100 speakers on 17 stages at the same time all competing for your ear and They're you know, then the expo and everybody's trying to sell you and give you a business card But that you get to see the culture you get to see the place you get to meet the people have in-depth Conversations and eat with them and explore the place that you're at. That's what I really love But what I realize is the majority of those events that I went to Very superficial very shallow I get to see the airport the taxi the hotel Go to the event get done speaking get leave don't have time to engage with anybody really and it's just Seems so empty And then you have to well, okay. Well, we had 20,000 people or we had 70,000 if it's you know, if it's a world mobile conference if it's four years from now whatever it is that is Not where we need to be we need to be into a place where we're actually having meaningful exchanges with people where we're getting something to see that we're all connected on this planet as global citizens that we can all Benefit from knowledge and wisdom from each other and kind of have an exchange and dialogue to see that I really like that and that's you know, you've probably experienced that as well um that I guess the the last thing of that is with this global citizen, I I've heard that in the digital space the internet and and digital arenas I've heard talk of diplomatic delegates or Digital diplomats, you know different countries are thinking about creating special positions just for the internet for the digital realm Um Kind of because there are some things that are global citizens food is a global citizen The the internet was meant to be for everyone It was the digital rescue of a new kind of an operating system open source hasn't become that way I mean I can I guess As the digital ruler of the internet now to some extent Uh, but but there's got to be you know, uh species animals birds They don't find borders the pandemic is a global citizen. It's the air the water the way it moves around our world. So why Can't we be global citizens? Why can't we kind of move into some kind or have a global operating space that We can function and say, you know, this is the standard. We're all equal. We can all exchange somehow I don't know if you have any thoughts or feelings on that, but I really Think it's interesting, you know, how during hard times we drive to this We kind of get down and fight nationalism in this division But also it's a great opportunity to say hey, we need a new global operating system that works for us all Yeah, I mean, that's another very very big. Yeah, it is it is big, but uh Yeah, probably You know if I if I need to dissect it again I strongly believe in education. Um, you know, if we That's again, you know 2020 with the pandemic with the lockdown all of a sudden You know kids and and college students and university students have been forced to to learn remotely And now you have to radar again the search slide. What's going well and what's not going well and in terms of your operating system I mean, I think one Huge major impact education could have, you know, if if we Reinvent education in a way that it feels more connected Very naïve example. I mean, I you know, I learned English and French at school But from school books and I mean that was the 70s and 80s, but it's 2020 Why don't kids have a French? Partner from Germany and they learn languages If they learn Spanish, why don't they have a Spanish partner? And if they want to learn Chinese you have a Chinese partner and you get to notice I mean imagine yourself if you would have been 12 year old 13 year old and you have a Chinese friend. I mean, how cool that would be um You know learning more because I think the more we know about other Cultures and and and you know other people I think the less, you know, the the more it feels like the more insights we have I think the more it feels like hey, we're all humans. We're all in this together. I mean The most exotic probably I've ever done was I spent six weeks with with uh native americans in in Like with the indian tribes in in the u.s. You know with navajo and and sue and You know for me that was probably the most exotic because you know coming from germany to spend six weeks among these tribes amazing amazing it changes your perspective Having spent time a little bit in india Changes your perspective and now coming back You know with education. We don't have to wait until we are mid 20s and we're able to travel and afford it We can do it already at school. I mean With the universities with with having new yeah a new type of of online education and The other of course is like from a politics. I mean, it's so sad to see that elections are one Mainly, you know often not mainly but often through populism It's way easier to be very populistic like I you know because of xyz This happens and I promise you the following But hopefully, you know with digital. I mean it becomes more transparent. Hopefully politicians become more accountable I mean that's that's so frustrating because you know These days it should be you know, there should not be alternative facts A lie is a lie and you know, if you have it on recording if you have facts written out It's it's a fact we We need the open press. We need the free press. We need good journalists We need to have help. We need to help politicians accountable and then besides education if we are able to change politics That's again something amazing and then the third Pillar of course is the economy. I mean if we experienced one thing over the last Whatever 50 years of unbelievable economic growth I mean even this year people tend to forget. Yes It's traumatic. Yes Companies like luftanza, etc. They're down like crazy But at the same time amazon google all the tech stocks I mean if you look it up most of them Doubled, you know like 60 percent more 80 percent more 100 percent more since the beginning of this year. So The third pillar has to be around Economical developments in there and you are in a way better position than I to to talk about the sustainability The the SDGs, etc. And I'm curious to hear your opinion on that but from my perspective, I mean I see some good indications, you know the shareholder letter from black rock to the CEOs You know, it's not some hippie dippy Hey, we should change. I mean we're talking about the company with over seven trillion dollar under management and If the ceo writes a letter to the portfolio and says like hey sustainability Climate risk is an investment risk I know you and I have different You know different back, you know, we think differently about it, but it's important that these big money guys see it Um It's important to to you know what microsoft said like we will pledge one billion to climate change And when I read through the press release the most important thing for me was and by the way we will held our suppliers accountable So if more of these big companies like Microsoft SAP telecom, whoever, you know, if they say like, you know We're doing good stuff here and we are forcing our suppliers as well. This could have a ripple effect Again, if we are also from, you know, if we if we text differently, I mean if we say like, you know, and you touched on food If we say like look the end of like these mass production Farming, I mean, it's horrible. What's what's happening there? We're going to tax it. It's not possible that people can eat You know, like a kilogram of of meat for five euro. It's not possible. It's not sustainable It's a it's a crime against, you know These animals and to a humanity if you think about the ecological effect, we need to tax it and if we force these companies to Change because we've seen amazing examples. Like, uh, you know them all better than I do like, uh How's it called? Uh, uh, Rügenwalder Mühle, Augusta. Rügenwalder Mühle is a great example Fabulous example of German sausage meat company that made a transition 2014 2013 and then really took a total plant-based move in 2015 and 2017 they says, yeah, we're going to go a hundred percent and change the way we produce and Just have a couple good friends that that work there and it's just a fabulous Story of of some of the things that they've done, but it's only it's only one example what you really just mentioned that you know Tesla and amazon and Microsoft and that there are some companies during this pandemic which Hit many hard and heavy that actually Have tripled and quadrupled their portfolios their investments their their profits. They're different things Because they had a different business model. They had a different operating system that allowed social distancing allowed innovative technologies. They also had some things in plan where Because of this they could pivot and deliver essential services food Tesla pivoted and did some things with a vaccine production and Respirators and stuff very controversial in some respects, but if you think about it, you know the amazon delivery system Because they'd automated and done autonomous chaotic warehousing They already had social distancing digitization into their plan So the the robots and the pick and pack system to get the packages to get it into the box was almost 100 automated then it goes to the person who seals the package or make sure the package Is halfway, okay, then it gets put on on a card and into a truck and one delivery driver With a mask with gloves hands it to you or leaves it on your doorstep But they could continue to go and people started to switch to that service and That's just one example and probably not the best example how many people The proofs in the pudding so to say That they showed improved that there are better operating models out there that During a time like this and we know that there's going to be others that are coming that are just more sustainable a better better working models that Can can help you weather storms like this and so that that's kind of what i'm sure you do and As well as I do is try to consult our our clients and our organizations that it's if they haven't that it's time to start to make those transitions and Even if it's just digital tools in the future of work and how can we make it more efficient and more resilient For what could possibly come in the future That leads me to my To my most difficult question and I believe you've answered it many times throughout our conversation and it's Some some get offended. It's the burning question WTF and it's not the swear word you and I have heard this many times I want to know from you what your advice or your guidance to companies are and what your personal Vision or maybe predictions of what's the future max? What what's the future? What can we look forward to or maybe some some direction of a vision? Yeah, what the s What the future WTF? Yeah And and because it's 2020 in the pandemic a lot of people are asking that question that pops into mind there They're saying what the You know, but it's actually what's the future Oh, totally. I mean here Look one thing I realized is It's impossible to predict and first step is to acknowledge that so you know It's it's it's funny the other day I found this apple video about the future of health. It was produced in 1998 Uh 88 sorry in 1988 and it described the future in 2008. You can look it up on youtube. It's hilarious The mighty apple the coolest company on the planet in 88 How they perceived the future of health You know what amazing things were in there because it's apple So, you know something like a variable like the apple watch is in there FaceTime calls was in there Etc. So amazing creativity. But as you know, it was not available in 2008 so One thing I realized is that um with all our imagination. We can come up with that we we rarely are right on the timing And this comes with these exponential developments. I mean, I've been you know, if I look back I've been often very very right. I mean you mentioned at the beginning that that was super early in mobile As a matter of fact, you know, the first iphone came around 2007 I was already doing mobile stuff for seven years. So for seven years I was rocking around like mobile mobile mobile, you know, it's like the internet in your pocket You have it always with you. It's 24 seven with you. Look at Japan what they are doing with iron mode. Look at mobile gaming It will be huge I mean I wrote my my mba thesis about mobile gaming in the early 2000s And I didn't found the professor who was interested in it because they were like, what do you mean? I can't play on a phone. This is my Nokia phone. What do you mean? I will play on a mobile phone. So my point was You know, I'm not the genius in that many of us have seen that coming But most of us were wrong in the timing Even 2007 with the iphone. It was not like that immediately. Bam the world changed. No, it's Exponential curve one two four eight sixteen You had to have the app store. You had to have the bandwidth You had to have something like candy crush and fortnight and blind and it explodes But in respect of your question, so I'm super careful about answering that so all I'm you know, what I think is is super relevant is Number one be aware that we end up wrong about the future number two In order to you know, be not surprised by the future and you said it, you know A few minutes ago you said something like We either help to create that future. We either help to shape that future or it happens to us and think I think that's such an important you know State of mind like hey, I need to actively Think about the future and I need to actively create it. Otherwise it will happen to me um thirdly To start in 2020 and then to project towards 2030. It's almost impossible. I mean Let's take the iphone as an example because I just mentioned it We have a pretty good gut feeling. What's what will become in a few weeks when the new iphone 12 will come out? I mean, it will be probably have a better camera No big surprise. It will have a better processor It will probably have something, you know, maybe around ar or something whatever I can probably give you a good guesstimate about 2021 about iphone 13 But then come on in 10 years Is it a contact lens that I have in my eye? Is it an earpiece? Is it something I stick on my brain? Is it inside my brain? We can only take guesses and so You know, for me the more exciting question is what do we want as a future? 2030 2035 Me as a corporate as an individual What is this desirable future and rather start there and thinking like, you know, what I don't know if this will come true But this is actually what I would love to wake up to this is actually what I want my kids to grow up to This is what I what I wish for the world And then we can re extrapolate, you know, and you know, we were just discussing moonshot thinking and then almost like a slingshot We can then go back and say like well If this is a future for me and I'm you know, I made the distinction between me personally and the corporates You can do it as a corporates if If 2030 if this is the future that I want to wake up to as Volkswagen as lufthansa as whatever I can work then backwards and say like, oh, okay, then I need to do in 2021 the following I love that that is so fabulous because That's back casting. That's how you know, we we do foresight and we do Forecasting but the the way is as you find out a time at a point in time and then you back cast and then What are the steps the targets the indicators or actions that need to be done to come close to reach that? You know some sometimes we overshoot sometimes we make it the other thing you touch upon is This gravitational effect this gravitational effect There's a formula that goes beyond kind of moonshot thinking. It's one that they've used in in the space shuttles and For a long time where we use the gravitational assist of a planet And there's a set formula to use that extra momentum to catapult us to slingshot us It's also called the slingshot effect, but there's another one that's very human for us and we've Experienced it a couple times during this pandemic and a couple times before with the greater Tumberg movement as well the Fridays for future and that where there's a Gravitational pull of humanity where we pivot we get we reach a consciousness. We align ourselves with a vision of a future that we want or a future that we realize we're not moving towards and And then there's this gravitational pull of humanity to get us there you um Have been I mean like I did in the inner in in your introduction Innovation hr transformation digital nomadism, you know the automotive industry health retail sports I would like to know From your innovation management or your your helping Companies in that direction to prepare them for the future Do you this is one thing that I that I feel is lacking that we have a lot of dystopian views of what the future looks like but we don't have a lot of clear innovative Visions or media that show us this desirable future or something that we can innovate and work towards you And I both come from star tech star trek a genre Jean Roddenberry and most of those all started out with some kind of a book that was then made into a series or Into a movie with movie magic and then those Visions or images of that media helped inspire us to engineer create design or even do movie magic to kind of Push us in that direction to make them into reality, which you've addressed today How with that are you helping or can you help or would you say is what you'd like to see us? Get that type of media and help companies Give a clear vision of that that moonshot thinking that future or come up with something as you just mentioned that company How can we get them there? How how can we have that vision as an organization? I mean to to Before we go to moonshot and to 2035 or whatever. I mean Clearly in 2020 you have to do certain things. I mean I think Trend scouting has been more important and relevant than ever. You know probably 15 years 15 years ago It was okay to you know, read your tech crunch and Go once in a while to silicon valley But it's 2020. I mean you have to be so much aware of what's happening in china in in asia in tokyo In in japan. What's happening in silicon valley? What are you know, what are the latest trends? What about the generational changes? I mean you mentioned kreta. I mean gen z millenials You know to have like a really really good trend scouting Why is tick tock exploding? Why is x y z doing? Why do they behave differently? What kind of patterns do we see? So I think that's something you have to establish second as a company Yeah, we need to co-create. We need to be Globally connected. We need to have our partners to times where you're like, oh, this is my business model And this is me and everything else is competition. I think these days are over. I mean I mean you don't have to go You know into co-creation mode with your Worst competitor with your major competitor But there is all these similar industries and you can co-create you can create spaces like You know in berlin for instance fisman. They opened up this the heating company. They opened up this innovation space in in berlin mitte actively inviting german mittelstand family Businesses to hey join us, you know, let's work together We need to figure out x y z for instance climate change What what impact does that have for us as fisman? You guys need to do that as well. So why don't you join us on this quest? We need to figure out how gen z behaves you as well as a joiner. So so number two. I strongly believe in co-creation partnerships, etc number three You you need to be more agile. You know, you call it resilient agile, etc You know actively doing something, you know build measure learn Lean startup approach It can't be that in 2020 it it takes, you know a year to spec a strategy and then to have an agency pitch and then Two years later after spending two million euros. You have the results. I mean that can't be those days are over fast like rapid prototyping a design sprint Working with the target group You know have a you know, not working on assumptions, but on observations on the minimum viable product Using the data. I mean these you know types of like product development has to be inside the dna No matter if you're in automotive or in, you know, whatever industry Um and fourth probably around hr I mean, it's the days where you know hr has a super important role. I mean, um, you know Management needs to be on top of things. They need to be You know, they need to have the space to try out new technologies and new developments Middle management needs to be empowered But every single employee needs to know about the purpose of a company. I mean It can't be that when you're working for automotive that the purpose is yeah, we're building the best cars and I mean come on That's that's the 90s So what's the purpose etc. So I can go on and on. So I think for 2020 there is a bunch of core stuff that someone needs to do like I've mentioned the hr the the innovation management the the trend scouting etc Um and then Basically in moving forward. I strongly believe in these three horizons, you know from google The the incremental stuff they chase and stuff and the moonshots and real quick The incremental stuff that is often over Seen and underestimated and often it's like, ah, you know, that's that's the boring stuff I mean google says 70 percent Zero why because those types of innovations they immediately have an effect and they can have a huge effect You know those types of little innovations around your core product could be super interesting It could be around sustainability. Like, you know, like how how do we have a better footprint? How can we reduce Waste how can we do x y z and if you come up with a nice idea? They are not only is it good for the planet. It might save costs whatever Um, if you you know reduce on business travel if you do certain processes better, that's great innovation You know, I don't want people to think like yeah, but that's the boring stuff. No, no, no You know entrepreneurship if if you have internally people Writing an email saying like look I thought about this process. I think we can do it better It saves us three signatures. It saves us seven minutes Seven minutes times 100 000 times. It's a lot of money. Well You know saved if we do it the old way The adjacent business is then you know the one to three year horizon I love that as well because usually it's it's new business models. It's like coming up with these Yeah, like wait a second. We're doing x y z it makes actually sense to go into that direction So, you know as a media company To go into the influencer marketing stuff Although it it is um, it it cannibalizes your core business which might be linear tv advertising or print advertising But as a media company it makes so much sense to go into these adjacent stuff like oh, yeah podcasts and Influencer marketing and maybe we should you know license our content to You know foreign countries and new partnerships and etc. Oh, we should move into vra or whatever That's the chasen. But finally the moonshots and and in respect of your question I mean, that's the 10 percent of your brain power And those are the most trans that's Transformatives like what would be our future if people don't drive a car anymore If this future means that people will not consume linear tv or print. I mean if that's the future I mean, what does that mean for us and what is You know, what's what's actually What would be something that we feel proud of achieving? And you mentioned all this dystopia and it's absolutely right. I mean most of the science fiction or you know black mirror, etc It's dystopian For me, it's a nice way to create a reaction. Oh, no, I don't want that to happen And it's also a great reaction because then You can ask yourself like, you know, if that black mirror Future if I would hate it, I mean, what's then the future that I would love to Is it a future Without mobile phones? No, not really, but Maybe with more control. Is it a future without cars? Not really, but maybe with these autonomous and shared and electrified and You know, where you basically pay for Where you pay for the mobility and not for owning a car and stuff like that. So you're Really in this mode and and and you know to wrap it up to have a strong opinion on the future and Have in mind that, you know, climate change is real So it's not like that we have much of a chance that we can just experiment and like, ah, let's see what 2035 brings us No, I mean This future has to be sustainable. It has to be, you know The kata generation it has to be adopted by Chen Z And then have a very educated Guests like, okay, this is what I want to grow up to and then work backwards and like if if that means my future as a company Or as an individual I can do that next year next month tomorrow to go at least the first step into that direction There's three things that I really want to touch upon. Uh, what you said so No, it's really not about the brands of the future. It's about how we produce in the future that will really be not only the biggest benefit for businesses health and in our environment and humanity in general, uh, it's really How we produce that that's that's the that's the real important thing and the reason I I mentioned that as you said a couple things in there There's a great book from John P. Strelicki. It's called the big five for life and Talks about the big five for life your purpose for existing and you mentioned that If we have these intrapreneurships these intrapreneurs that uh, you know, say, hey, if we uh, did this This these four or five processes in one process It would save us this much money this many signatures this much co-checking supervision And it's a better business model. It's a better model to operate on. That's one way we can go now. I I'm you know, I'm friends with Elon Musk, but I I'm not promoting him. He's very controversial But there's another fabulous example That I want to bring out and maybe get your thoughts or ideas on this that that I think a lot of people totally missed battery day Was actually kind of a flop, you know, and especially in the media that wasn't reported right then the stocks, uh dipped And I'm like, why don't they get it? I guess they were waiting for a solid state battery I guess they were waiting from sir some super New brand or product coming out what he said And let's just get it clear is that He's turning the giga factory into a terra factory By the way he produces the way he increases efficiency The way he produces or gets raw goods materials first principle Resources out of the ground that don't hurt anybody. It's just a water and an assault type of a of a mixture to get To get things out of the ground in a different way Of production that takes you from a giga factory to a terra factory and if people can't say by producing in a different way systems factories of factories That there's efficiencies and ways to reach the future in an exponential way more efficient way whatever terminology you want to use I I just couldn't believe that at all. But that's exactly basically what you're You're saying that book the big five for life actually breaks that down in a couple Chapters, it's a real easy read, but it says, you know, how much do you invest in? And your employees to onboard them to hire them and how much will you lose if you fire them or they quit because they're so miserable Just pushing the same button every day and they're not reaching the future And it's just like the robot some monkey could do it or a robot could do that job Because they're not doing that and how much is lost for the ripple effect on those employees which comes back to how do you Create better jobs. How do you be more creative? How do you reach the future? How do you create those models that stay up with our exponentially growing world? And so I love the fact that you touched on all those things and you know, you break it down and in those pillars Is absolutely fabulous, but I believe there's so many examples that we've just seen that are out there that Gives you the proof of exactly what you said. So I don't know if you have anything to say to that or not I mean It's again many different points, but like with tesla absolutely the the battery day. I think it just is a nice example You know, if there would have been a new model 4 or model z or whatever kind of nomenclature I mean people would have you know, the the the news would have been exploded the Share price would have exploded I'm with you. I thought it was amazing because it focused more on the long-term Sustainable growth of the business like look if we can do this if we can pull this off This is a game changer. So I thought it was exciting But yes the media or us. I mean, of course, it's easier for us to comprehend like oh new car looks great. When can I have it? but Yeah, I mean, it's it's it's important stuff that you mentioned starting with the production. I mean with the limited resources. I mean I'm to to be honest like I think There is a the road is not an easy one But I yeah, but I you know, I continue to Remain a techno optimist. I'm always trying to understand Maybe technology could help with that Yes, more people on the planet more food is required But hopefully with these exponential developments that we see in tech. I mean, this is also true for agriculture. I mean if we can harvest food on a smaller footprint through technology with You know in-house farming or however, how you call it vertical Farming or controlled environmental agriculture. Yeah controlled environment agriculture Amazing and you know why I stay a techno optimist is If it whatever costs a million today, you know is like a hundred thousand in a few years and a fraction of that in 10 years So hopefully we can solve a lot about that The problem with the meat consumption and I mean I do mean problem because as we all know with these Mass production of meat. I mean it's just like horrible. Yeah, it's horrible. It's an imbalance It's a waste of resources to to get us something and it's creating a lot a big ripple effect of other things There's got to be some new ways to do it. I'm working with a lot of cellular agriculture foods In Germany, they call it in vitro flesh, which is kind of the main sounds like it You know in vitro babies or something. It doesn't sound not appealing, but it's actually a really clean Way that doesn't use GMOs and it's not some frankenstein It's it's just a better more better way to do it We're running out of time and I have three more questions unless you have something that you want to address There's There's you're welcome to ask me anything or anything that we left out throw in But I wanted you to give my listeners a sustainable takeaway And so I have three questions the kind of kind of a give to them a freebie of some wisdom max wisdom and the first one is really The young innovators the people in your field are kind of moving in the same direction What should they be thinking about or doing to make a real impact on our future? Yeah, I think What we've touched upon this kind of like moonshot thinking I think that's a very important tool set they should use because Way too often we You know, we start with the presence and then you know go forward in time No really do it the other way around. What's a desirable sustainable future and how can I have an impact and You know, I would I would always start with that and then Second, especially because you said for the younger ones I mean more bold and brave moves because I think that's something that really changed these days You know, we we have to freedom to make Bright a bold and brave moves. I mean Unless we have to fight for our survival, you know and get to food on the table, but most of us are doing relatively well and You know these days It's the time where you don't need to have a straight cv and you know, then I joined McKinsey and then I did this and that You know the flexibility of you know, nano degrees getting a degree from google working abroad Working a year there joining a startup startup didn't worked out. So I joined the corporate totally. Okay After two years, I realized I have an idea creating your own startup I mean, so that would be my advice. So think about the desirable future think about How you can You know influence that and you know be more brave and bold about your moves because at the end It's all little dots that got connected when you look backwards like Steve chop said Yeah, yeah And then the the next one is what have you experienced or learned in your own professional journey This long journey that you would have loved to know From the beginning or from the start Yeah, it's probably the The last thing I've mentioned this You know all is good like like the what steve job said in this inauguration talk like, you know First of all death is is a really important design element for life. I mean, you know, our friend gino you I mean, I always love when he sees me and I start, you know with my german Ah, you know, this and that and then he's always like, you know, the alternative would be your dad So how about that? And I'm right. I often so I I have to think about gino so often when I'm like Feeling a bit miserable or whatever them like, hey, wait a second the alternative would be death And I'm actually really happy to be alive. So All good. So, you know, I wish earlier on Early 20s mid 20s. I would have had this in mind and with early 20s You don't think about death, but I think it should it's an it's an important design element and second, um, yeah, all is good like these You know looking backwards all these dots made sense and Not to you know, I I probably wait to often over thought Moves like oh, it should be, you know, this would be great and I should study this and I should do that No, you know, if it feels right. I mean, it will all turn out Looking backwards and and to be a bit more brave because I think, you know, usually we we Very soft. I mean, we don't have to fight for food on the table. So You know those two years in a startup that didn't turn out. Okay. It's a great experience and you will benefit from that Um working abroad. I mean, this is not time wasted. I mean, it's experience that you will take with you for for the remainder of your career, etc and having the right priorities because I mean You know at the end if you die of a heart attack or if you're completely burned out. I mean then there is no use so That's also something that I probably at the beginning of my career Because you know, if you're young, I mean your disguise the limit But to watch out more carefully on these these indications like wait a second slow down all good so Is there anything that we left out or that you would like to let my listeners know before I tell you goodbye Yeah, I mean Techno optimism. So, you know, it's so easy to To blame why AI will kill us. I mean, it's easy to have such a statement. I think You know, take the other approach like, you know, what can an AI do good for me? Um Exponential developments. Oh, we will all run out of jobs because the robots take over. No, I mean, let's think about how robots could support us. So I don't want to call it positivism, but you know What I am forcing myself is before I start complaining To quickly think for a minute. Wait a second Maybe we can take a positive twist and we can take it More optimistic approach this this and that it could mean the following but it also could mean if we do it rightfully Moonshot thinking because I strongly believe in it In order to create the the future that we want to have We need to have an opinion and the reason why I've touched on upon it now 10 times is Way too often with clients with friends, you know, we just let it Let it happen to us We don't take the time to to stop to hit the pause button and think about like, yeah Hey, what is it what we want? So, you know, I always will repeat that. It's it's an important lesson And yeah, and and what you touched upon like be open-minded like the global citizenship. I mean to To reach out. I mean even now with the pandemic. I mean one way is to completely go into isolation and to you know, you know be Grieving about what we all lost in terms of jobs or projects The other way is like to reach out to friends and like, hey, how can I be of help? How can I support you? and you know karma hits back and and you know, what's Cool, I can all of a sudden have a call with robert. I know he's so busy in chicago But now because of the lockdown I can have actually a really cool conversation with him and something sparks out of that And I I'm talking to this and to that person and and uh, yeah to see opportunities because like I said with with with winston church Or you know, don't let a good crisis go to waste. I mean, there are opportunities out of every crisis That that peter d amanda said that as well that world's Biggest problems are also the world's biggest business opportunities or opportunities period and and I look at it more of The world's biggest challenge grand challenges are the biggest opportunities as well There's always that yin and that yang or that balance. There's you know, the exponential bad Men's are exponential good that we can actually hit that balance again Uh, uh, there's flip sides of every coin and so I really Like that thinking and I really appreciate your time max is so good to see you and I know we'll be seeing much more of each other We're doing that the future. I owe moonshot the masterclass as being launched this week So we're gonna see each other around a lot more and I'm so glad you were on the show. Thanks so much for being here and Uh, I appreciate it. Talk to you later. No, thank you. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Thank you mark. Thank you