 Yes, I tell you how are you I am fine you I'm doing good. Thank you Fantastic nice to be here Yes, we'll start in a minute. So you you're all set all your tickets for booked everything is done Yeah, yeah should be fine cool look forward to your visit here, so Me too me too can wait. I have my visa the approval so Ready to fly awesome I've read a few of your articles on your blog like them. Oh, thank you I have your the voice that comes back to me So if you could just I don't know what because I see you have headphones Yeah, so I don't know how it happens, but still I get my voice like three seconds after Yeah, even I'm not sure tell you what's what's happening here But let me start the video now so that we can have the maybe the stores video We can start with and then we will I think it's a 14 minute video that Donna took your interview And then probably we can come back and have a conversation. That's okay with you Actually, I think when I clicked on the link that you sent me I I saw the video from Donna, so probably it's already going No, I can actually start it now probably or Or we can we can skip that we can start it. I was just hoping that maybe we'll have Folks joining in so I can actually start with some of these The videos so that we can set the context for people who are joining in and then we can have them ask the questions I will follow you no problem So hi everyone those who have just joined in we are starting the webinar with the Stelio Who founded a liquid organization and today we are going to talk to him and ask him a lot about what is liquid organization and It seems like a very interesting idea What led to creation of the liquid organization concept how does it work? What I mean some of the examples of that and so on and so forth. Let me start with the playing a video or that we have from one of his Stelios works here so that we can get a context of that and then we have still your life here for a more chat on that so let me start with the video here Okay, it seems I'm not able to play this Stelio So I think we'll get started with the conversation with you and we'll see if we can give a link to that later So that people can probably come back Can Okay, so Okay, this is funny because I'm getting a lot of eco here. I I don't know what's Happening here, but I think we're getting a lot of Echo here. Okay. This is funny because I'm getting a lot of eco here. I don't know what Here hi Stelio, are you okay? Can you hear me? Hello? Okay Hopefully the link is fine without any echo. So let me try again You you am I audible can you hear me? Yeah, perfectly. Okay. Thanks a lot. Okay. So welcome welcome Stelio I know that you are coming here to India next week for the agile India conference And you are also going to conduct a workshop on the liquid organizations And in this webinar, we would like to Understand a little more about the liquid organizations what it means and how can it help the knowledge-based organizations? So as I see from your LinkedIn profile that you have an educational background in fluid dynamics So maybe if you can introduce yourself and talk about a little about your work in the past And also, how did you get the inspiration to use the concepts from fluid dynamics into something as challenging Yeah, well, that's That's a very nice question. I don't want to speak too much about myself But just the key facts I started aerospace engineering Following my passion for fluids for the wind for sailing for the ocean that kind of thing And I never thought about it as a as a job something that I was doing in order to work as an aerospace engineer It might have happened. I I didn't care too much about it. I wanted to study that because I cared about it and in the meanwhile I've been involved in Chinese martial arts we should martial arts so that you shouldn't that kind of things which actually turned out to be another way of Understanding what fluidity is what is what it means to be fluid Inside and outside While I was growing up into these things so fluids in terms of sea and wind the fluids in terms of body and minds I also Started working with companies Actually, I started when I was 18 or 19 and it was middle 90s when Internet was becoming a strategical assets for for the company was becoming strategic and So it was not something for no longer something for tech people or you know geeks But it was becoming something. It was very important up to the Owners of even big companies. So the question was how do we use this thing properly? And as we all know what that's where I started working. So I started doing strategic web projects and As we all know that also started changing the markets And the relationship between the firm and the external stakeholders and then turning out to blur even the boundaries between the internal and external and So I actually follow with that. So I started working on the relationship with with the external stakeholders First I founded my first company when I was I don't know probably 24 or 25 and that was what we did So it was like starting from the brand DNA and going up to building meaningful conversation with all the stakeholders and gauging them in Well parts or even most important Processes of the company. So in the 90s, you will you would have called that marketing After the year 2000, I don't know some people call that society or something different But something was definitely changing. So I kept following this change and arrived into the way The way of work actually the way people worked inside outside actually in on the daily life So basically I followed the lean management Stream that's you know, as ever as most of you probably know Started in in the manufacturing but then arrived in arrived to knowledge work and So that kind of thing led me and actually if you lean if you read for example lean thinking by woman The some some seeds of that we're already in that book and the seeds said that we needed different Organizational structure different organizational dynamics in order to truly and deeply realize a lean enterprise So that that's where that's when I close my first firm and open the second one, which is cocoon projects and I did that with some of the people with which we were my was Working in in the previous firm and and we wanted to change what we did. So we weren't Much interested in keep keeping working our nights up to sell and rover cars or you know that kind of things We wanted to start creating real value in the way people can leave their their work their daily job And so that's what cocoon started doing So the question was now now that we can start from scratch with a new company How would a really cool company be some something that wouldn't have the kind of waste that we have observed in our own company previous one and Over and over in our customers companies. So, you know bottlenecks bureaucracy rigidity Well, you know that The answer was we don't know but we we want to follow the what if thinking so what if we don't need Fixed roads. What if what if we don't even need job interviews? So we followed that really all the way down and I worked personally in designing a new governance model That allowed that to happen So in order to have values and principles in in the place of roles and titles, you know enabling people instead of commanding and control their job surfing through complexity in order to try to Have reality follow your plan when you are an entrepreneur or where you are when you are a manager So after nine months just like a baby We hit the first version of the liquid Organization governance model that then we turned out calling liquid oh Which stands for liquid organization liquid. Oh is actually an Italian word and that it means liquids So the core concept only in liquid oh, and then I will stop because I think I answered your first question the core concepts and liquid oh is Realizing the same agility that we have known in operations like in software development for example to realize that at the level of the governance and That's something that I think is still lacking in the world and that's the core thing because you need Govern agile dynamics for for allocating value and that's governance. So that's where liquid oh stands Thanks, Stelio for setting the context there I also find it very interesting that you chose the name liquid oh for for your very radical ideas one of the books very well one of the books Remember from Edward Di Bono the name of the title logic And your work I was reminded of how Di Bono has also talked About it being the rock logic and the water logic and the water being when the river is flowing the water fan It is able to go past the rocks, you know to go there Maybe there is a very very innate notion of fluidity and flow That that we that seems to be very common and the nature has kind of perfected it over the billions of years And I think mankind is still learning it but probably from your experience from martial arts You are able to bring those ideas into And and the lean ideas into the into the workplace. So so so one question on that Stelio We have we we have I think enough number of management theories there There is every day some new kind of a model coming there Even though there has been a fair criticism of the 20th century management theories How how do you say that this idea of yours where you are essentially Creating more fluidity in the organization. You're removing the waste from the organization is more relevant to Knowledge organizations or it is also relevant to every kind of an organization comment on that Okay, one thing that comes to my mind when you use the word relevant Is the tetrad which is a model that Marshall McLuhan used in order to analyze the passage From one media to another and in in his words media is anything that extends the human capabilities So in this respect a company is a media So one of the things in the tetrad is what does the new media? make relevant again and I believe that This set to this family of of new frameworks new models, which of course liquid is not the only one It was one of the few when we started in 2011 now there are plenty's They make something very important relevant again, which is the person the people I think that in the last century we had forgotten that work is something that Exists for the people in order to serve The people in their lives and we put things in the other perspective where people had to adapt In order to work Leave for working and had to change the behaviors and even the value scales In order to adapt to the companies This happened just for one century in one and a half actually in human history if you look at the whole human history the time where complexity was Low enough to allow for mechanistic Company models Disappears is just a tiny line a really a moment in time All the rest was dominated by complexity and that's because life is Inherently complex and we are inherently complex just think about a marriage So the thing is once I understand that I cannot plan and control reality How do I effectively serve it? Individually and then the next question is how do we serve it? collectively, so how does how do people? Use their Inborn Ability to cope with complexity Together in order to reach goals, which is actually the very concept of the organization We get together in order to reach common goals Now the organization of the last century after Taylor We had divided people to think from people that execute That was working in an environment where a few players could control the set. It was really Simplified discreet complexity was low enough. You could plan your company for five ten even twenty years in some cases Now if you ask me what? Markets are going to be in 20 years. We have some science fiction. So The thing is we need new tools because reality is back to a new high level of complexity But in a completely new scope with new technologies new life expectation new world population completely different situation so making people relevant again is the key and In order to make people relevant again You need a good model that puts the person in and the person growth at the center with Continuous feedback loops that allow people to take small risk and grow through it Which is what liquid is about But also you need a very simple one. I hear about other models. I don't want to make names some of Some of them are really famous That are complicated. I really complicated you need to study like like a Big documents full of rules that tells you how you have to establish circles do your meetings I mean, I was speaking with stew stew imbly which I had the honor to work with Recently about adaptive organization design and we agree the one very important thing not the only one But one very important thing is that there is no prescriptive solution to an adaptability problem So the thing is give people a Set of principles at a very simple set of rules Which is what nature does in a seed or in the DNA and then let Things emerge and adapt from that don't try to rule out everything that can happen And this is what liquid is about and this is why liquid is can be a very good idea for for Especially for knowledge organization working with high variability high complexity So that testing question could it be that That if if we look at different work practices and different cultures Maybe if liquid or what to originate in in India or Japan or US Probably a different set of rules would emerge because people have a different Collaborative style with each other or people have a different trust equation with each other there So my question is number one do you think that is correct in your view that? That Liquid or itself is something which is more of a conceptual framework Which allows people to tweak it based on their requirements or based on the chemistry in the organization or based on How mature the the the team is working together? Would like to that said yes, definitely this is something that we Try to to make very clear and I can speak since we are probably have an audience Mainly of IT people and programmers let that think of liquid as a class Then you have to create instances and each instance will inherit something from the class But then it will be really localized to the single company in in its single Life phase and of course in the environmental culture where the company is is growing and that's possible because liquid or the Leaves a lot in the hands of the people of the company so not ruling too much you leave all the natural dynamics of leadership of confrontation of You know the human dynamics That will then take place in a very specific way of that group of group of people On the other hand, I will also add that It's true that liquid was born in Italy and that's probably not a case since we have one of the highest complexity in the world Probably we can compete with India. I Don't know. I'm really curious about India. I don't I'm speaking about something. I don't know but What what arrives here is that you have a high complexity as well so But it's at the same time. Actually, I haven't invented much. I devised a Functional way of putting together different sets of principles coming from the lean management body of knowledge and you know that was That was something that was born Interesting on its own because it was born when with a Marshall plant and when when people are right from the United States like Damming arrived in Japan. And so you have this Western culture that goes in an holistic Terrain ground and and sprouts this new completely new way of thinking About the the value flow and everything that we know So that's already something from two continents and different culture and and we kept Really a lot from that for example our collaborative working where is a Kanban board, which is something coming from Manufacturing and then arrived. There is a book from Anderson arrived in knowledge work as Kanban for for team or for You know for collaboration Then there is another stream, which is positive psychology That again, we haven't invented is something that now is working a lot and it's about giving Positive feedback you have also appreciative inquiry a lot of things that were happening already We build them in the dynamics of liquid so that people can find out the strengths and Work aligned with their own values. So again, we didn't invent this. It's not Italian Unfortunately the way we put things together. Well, that's our own way and and the other one the other Stream conceptual stream very important is that one of openness and as you well know, we haven't invented open source Open Ardor or even open innovation. There are dynamics that are there Actually, there is wiki management. It's another stream another book and and that's exactly speaking about how people did Wikipedia how open knowledge and how we can bring that to management So actually that's I think that liquid oh is a way of putting together Something that the humankind the mankind was already Digesting in different perspectives and we put them together in the most simple way I could do but we could devise I could think of so maybe Maybe people when they practice these individual components, the effect is probably getting Kated because maybe they are doing appreciative inquiry, but it probably doesn't interlock with other Supporting or renaissance. You've taken some of the most Timeless ideas and and seen how they really operate within the context of an organization And for the best results how they need to be operated as a framework Rather than individual practices and I think that's that's that's the intersection value that you Create once one way I would probably look at it So so my next question is you talked about collaborative working model. I understand that is one of the four pillars I also was very much interested to know more from you about the At least other two pillars out of three which is the credit's accounting system and the reputation Tracing it seems like something very new. We are not it's not a part of the regular thinking framework of people Would you like to talk about these two and just help our viewers understand a little more on that? Yeah, one of the important things that we brought these principles to the governance It can be the governance of the whole company or can be the governance of a team That's up to you, but when you have to the define a direction and create the strategy and adapt To the complexity of your situation. That's about governance and normally we think about it Some as something for specific people with which we call managers The thing is that governance with liquid is a open to the whole company So anybody that wants to take part to the governor has a very simple set of rules Based on the principles we spoken about to do that Now in order for that to work in our model in our opinion, you need four things First that we we mentioned is a collaborative working board environment so something where everything that is going on in the governance of the group of people is Visualized and follows a process so anybody can propose an idea then this idea can be accepted prioritized and then with a work in progress limit it can be Executed by anybody and then can be or cannot be accepted with a review of other people and then and then it's completed So this is the first one, but you are asking about the credit or even better the contribution accounting system so the thing is When you join a Work item so an activity in the governance you give an estimate of the value of that activity Let's say that you give that in credits So we are three or five people working at an on an activity and all of us give an estimate You can change that estimate until the activity is completed because reality change So actually it's not an estimate in Forecast it's an estimate in the moment Until the finish so at the very end you know what happened and you know if it was very difficult very easy Faster than you thought. Okay, so you can change your estimate the Footprints the value of that activity is the average of the estimate of people taking part to it. Okay, that's simple And That's based and we are already speaking about contribution accounting here Ah, so that's based on the assumption that the real value of an activity in a complex system is unknown and unknowable So the thing is what's our perception? Let's make that emerge Then if that activity will create Much a lot of value we will know that just in the future It will interact with other activities with the external system. We cannot know that up front So the important is our perception we express that at our best and then when the activity is finished That value is frozen and that's the value of that activity now We have worked at that activity. Let's say we are three people. It's you me and and another one And then we have to share the value created in that activity in terms of credits for the moment So let's say that at the end that activity was worth one hundred credits of This one hundred credits at the end. I will be called to a very quick Retrospective credit shares by the system can be a software of people that doesn't matter That will ask me in which percentage have people created this value So I would say that you have created 50 percent I have created 30 percent and the third person 20 percent and so on all of us will input these values So each of us will have three values our own for our self and the other two the average will be the value that I get So probably I don't know I will get 35 percent of the final value after that you have reviewed the value. I've created if I had Estimated my contribution 30 percent then I have a plus 5 percent If I've had estimated my contribution for example 40 percent then I'm now I am I had Under and sorry overestimated myself 5% and now I'm getting 5% less Now This value is split in this percentage and the task is closed. So what I get are credits What do I do with these credits? Usually you can link that to the compensation value of System of the company that's tricky, but probably should be done because I'm using my energies and time in the governance of the company So there is some kind of linkage with the compensation But what is very important is that those credits have value in two dimensions one is Decisional power So when it comes to important decisions, you have different Toolbox of this collaborate decision making tools, which are processes basic basically the most important decision are taken by Credit shares. So the more I had I have created value in the governance recognized by others the more it means I understand what's going on and I can Give have a say a bigger say into that decisions and that's fluid because over time if I'm not creating value anymore I'm losing that power. It's not positional. It's value-based so it is it's very transparent and it's a very Democratic way and it's a very pure feedback kind of a way in which the contributions of people who are working to Where there is There is no from the action and kind of unilaterally Deciding hey your contribution is 20 or your contribution is 40 But everybody has an involvement in that and everybody has a role to play in that Yeah, it's granular the people that are working with you on that activity would evaluate you. So, you know if somebody Doesn't like you and so it's giving you a bad seat the bad Evaluation that doesn't matter because it's very granular. You're taking part to other activities with other people on On the average or big numbers. You are not losing anything and what we have found out. So I haven't told you one thing The whole system we will see will see as an output the value of the work item as defined by the average then we'll see the Percentage of shares that each person is taking and the distance between the self-evaluation and the average that came out So if I am constantly overestimating myself or constantly under estimating myself It shows and when something shows that's a Energial in agile principle the sooner a problem shows the sooner we can decide if it's the case to take an action on that That over estimating or underestimating ourselves happen in any work environment. It's just that when you see that it's too late So yes, and another very important thing is that that credit those credits have and I go to the other pillar a Reputational impact we have found out that people Care about the reputation in where social animals that we care about our reputation in the system More even more than than we care about compensation on average so People everybody will see if I'm and creating value in the governance or not In if I am if I'm overestimating or underestimating myself with my situation in the governance It shows and that's not a political Reputation it's an operational reputation. It's just showing what is happening Not what I'm telling not one if I'm making friends or you know I'm looking for followers if I'm working creating value people will recognize that or not And the value created is not based on the time. I'm spending on things It's just the value created you can jump in a room and solve the problem in 10 minutes We were working for four hours probably people will give you 30 or 40 percent of the value shares in the evaluation Because you solve the problem it I think Radical ideas where Probably the traditional managers leaders and the traditional HR Practitioners would have a big challenge in really accepting some of these ideas Let alone implementing it because I am sure it Implementing is not something that they can read a book and they can do that So so my next question staleo is I remember watching one of your previous hangouts I think wasco had done that about two years back in which you and your co-founder yakubo were talking about doing some private Alphas probably take from that point. How has been the journey in terms of implementing it or doing Some some experimentation any any experiences that you can share with our audience so that they understand How some of these very radical ideas have been tried out and what has been the result so far Given the nature of existing rigidity in the organizations or the business alignment and so on Okay, so I would say that there are two sides of the journey that are relevant One side is our own experience in cocoon projects We are now Approaching 70 people and just a small company, of course, but still is a small company. There is no longer a startup It's competing on markets Internationally It's going quite well at the moment and we have never ever done one job interview And we don't have any Positional title. There's no vp of marketing or vp or it or whatever It's completely managed by liquido end to end. We have taken our, you know, we've eaten our own dog foods fully So we're using liquido as a way To let people into the company through the governance So not, you know, we think that interviewing somebody is a little waterfall It's a little, you know, trying to understand the future based on the Current information So let's get into the core the most important part of our company Which is the governance and challenge yourself with liquido and see what happens And this is working real good. We haven't had any problem with that in Four and a half probably years now And we've seen many people entering and then fading out and other people arriving somebody staying It's completely organic in that respect So our experience with that is that it's working perfectly Of course, I can just a comment for a moment tell you sorry about that Funny that you mentioned that no interviews has been a very interesting thing Just for our viewers For agile india and those who will be joining us We will have I think a very interesting set of ideas because we also have one of the other speakers from men know innovations rich shardan and And he actually talks about peer interviewing So really in men know innovations they talk about interviewing two people together And and that's how they do the peer interviewing and he has tell you talking about a very unique thing that they have tried for the last Four and a half years, which is no interviewing. So I'm sure The the attendees of agile india can expect a very interesting debate or very interesting set of ideas To what what have been the learnings and and how some of these ideas have been there in practice I just wanted to put this small plug for both these Conflicting and rather diametrically opposite views tell you sorry for cutting you in but please go ahead with that Oh, it's perfect. I think that in agile terms we were kind of Um, no estimates of of recruiting right So, um, so these are things that happened and We haven't felt the need for changing the model in four years. It's working Our instance of the model is working What we have felt the need for is a software platform that enables us to grow bigger We have used self crafted tools for that We are partnering with an important partner with our software platform, which is kambanize And and we're building our own platform. We will release it in open source actually In actually now a few weeks the first version and there are other organizations waiting for that And this is the second part of the of the story The other thing that happened in the journey was that A lot of organization got interest into liquidal So they're calling us to try to understand if and how to implement liquidal And that's that's funny because we have taken a lot of care in not putting liquidal even on our websites Because what we do is helping organization in their evolution, which is not selling liquidal liquidal is not for all the organizations It's good for some of them for some others. There is another path to follow and maybe one day we will speak about liquid governance Still we have been called around from small excellent Companies up to 80,000 people companies. There are there is a lot of interests um, of course as you said implementing liquidal is Probably more similar to a martial art. It's not something that you can learn on a book So you have two choices you download our white paper, which we will update in a few weeks on liquid organization dot info It's released in creative comments. You read it Whatever you understand out of it you try it in your company and then maybe you don't need us ever Or you might need some help in understanding how to Adapt the framework to your context and where to start In the next updates of the white paper, we will try to give some hints We didn't put these hints before because we we weren't sure. We didn't know we didn't have enough data enough Cases to to Desume something but now we do and so we'll probably give some hints Something some of them are which really quickly is First one we will be starting with the collaborative working board without anything else But using the collaborative working board the Kanban board system for the governance of the human system And then on top of that you can build the other pillars slowly The other one if you are really structured and you have levels in your company because you have a traditional management You cannot think about breaking that completely off immediately. That's not the kind of approach. We would suggest We have seen that happen in some a few companies with other approach Actually, we don't like that. We don't think it's necessary You can start melting is like heating up your system and start melting it In some specific points, which can be a project can be a division can be a national Governance committee. It depends on your situation, but find out something that is core Is important, but it's a scoped it's limited and you start applying liquid or there You learn from that and then you will know where to extend it and in which timing Thanks, let me open it up For any questions from our viewers Let me also remind all the people who are watching this live or will watch the recording Stelio will be in banglore for the agile india conference next week Starting on the funder. He will also be doing a one day workshop On the 14th itself. That is a day one of the conference there We we have shared the link, but just go to 20 60 dot agile india dot org And you can find the link to register for the workshop by Stelio We believe some of these ideas are very radical and the opportunity to learn from Stelio Who's who's going to be in India for the first time is I think a very unique opportunity And we would like all the agile enthusiasts and executives to benefit from that With that, let me just keep Keep the line open if if we have any Meanwhile, let me just ask maybe one or two more questions From Isam, so You said that people can basically download the document and read it and experiment with that It gives a set of guidelines and principles and framework In addition to that, do you believe that Like you are doing a one day coaching one day workshop for the people Is is that some kind of a standard offering that you do, uh, which people can they can benefit from that, uh, or Do you plan to have some kind of a like a coaching Because like martial arts probably it needs a coach People can probably learn it on their own, but at some point in time they need to have some coach available there so How much importance do you think you would have for an idea as As well, uh, or people can just do it yourself or there will be any It's a comment on that Well, look, uh, I I don't want to seem commercial. So this is why I'm opening up to all the possibilities There's a lot of very skilled people out there intuitive people that maybe are Already coached or have already coached and they can set up their own learning environment Healthy, but I agree with you that that's something where A skilled somebody That has seen many things happen already Uh could At the very least speed things up for you and avoid you a few Wastes a few blind Uh trails So yeah, totally agree that You might need somebody at least, you know, at least a call or a set of video calls to understand How to scope it to your organization and then maybe for the first three or six months Some help in get going that's for sure would help I don't want to say that it's necessary, but it will help And that's because we we don't want to we don't as I said before we don't want to be prescriptive There is no manual for instructions So there is no you do all these things and you're going no it's You implement and understand these principles the rules are simple But the principles are not so obvious for people used to command and control So you might need somebody helping you in recognizing if you're doing good or not in the first months of your of your path And another very important thing speaking about the worship we are having in the conference Is that when we help an organization in their evolution? We don't talk too much. We don't lecture them on on what is that they have to do We don't do lessons. We don't release documents. We have them try different ways of doing things And through these new tools and processes they start understanding new principles and Absorbing a new culture of how things can be done And I think that's very important too. So Even for choosing if you want to implement liquid or not Taking part to a worship is as is a no-brainer It's something that will clarify so many things because you will be playing with this thing not just reading them But there is a huge difference Okay, thanks stelio. I don't think we have Alarm thanks a lot for taking and Sharing some of the I think you you have really picked my own interest to to come and I'm definitely going to come and sit in your Workshop on the 14 and I also look forward to your your two talks that you are going to deliver at the agile India conference and I'm sure there will be many more such such key information and and and Very important tools and techniques that you will be sharing in the workshop. So let me know Not take away the thunder of your workshop and and let people look up to the workshop those who would like to join that Once again, this is agile India webinar here I'm Tathagat Burma. I'm one of the chairs for this event and we have we have just had a webinar with stelio from italy He is the creator of the liquid organization a project that they started back in 2011 and it has been now They have been successfully using it in in the organization for the last five years As as stelio shared in the talk with us At this point, we don't have any questions. So I would like to request stelio for summing up probably in the last one minute What does he think about the future of liquido and and its relevance to the organizations? Especially the knowledge organizations globally And with with that wrap up we would close it down. So stelio over to you for summing up your thoughts about it How do you see the future of work and the ideas from liquido? So I think that what is going on is is a very important shift in the Consciousness of people that going back To the center of work and not having to adapt to work dynamics Are putting a thing very important things like their happiness their Serve the self growth into the center of their lives again And so there is this shift from the egos of individuals to collective Ways of creating growth platforms of creating value in general So I think this is where liquido must be placed It's a way of creating a growth platform for having people Realize their potential while they realize their goals as an organization Now I am not attached to my own child I would say that liquido is a five years old child baby Looks like a smart one, but I don't know if it's going to grow into a good man Actually, I think that what is happening is already very interesting And your interest is not for liquido and your interest is for different ways of Conceptual ways of understanding and living work and liquido is enabling this conversation Which I'm grateful for and I think that it's already a very nice thing in the next years Also with the software and other organization contacting us. We will see what happens I have some ideas, but I like to serve as I said to serve what happens So I'll be definitely surfing this wave for for for more time, but no expectation. I hope it will be useful Thanks a lot cello and we wish you all the best not just for the sake of liquido, but I think for the sake of Everybody's work that ideas like liquido Become more prominent and more mainstream because I think they are much more Adaptive they have been created for the organizations of today and tomorrow And they don't they are not rooted into the industrial management theory, but they are really rooted in Knowledge management and I think those of us who have been watching would know that cellos Talk was if anything it was all about people. I like The model there is a very high premium on people as being in the center of the equation. So I'm sure the whole context of people centered organizations will find the ideas from liquido very relevant to the organization Thanks a lot cello for taking time out appreciate the last one hour of our session And we look forward to seeing you in Bangalore next week safe travels and look Over to your session as well with that. I would like to come here. It will be updated on the agile India Channel on youtube Please watch it and look forward to seeing you at agile India content next week. Thanks a lot Thank you very much. Thank you. All right. Take care