 This is Think Tech Hawaii, Community Matters here. Bingo! Sandra O'Hara, she's my special guest today. We catch up with each other every now and then, and I always quality time. Not that I need it professionally, but some of you do. She's a tech employment expert with a deco. Doing that 18 years, it doesn't look over 18 anyway, I guess whatever you're doing agrees with you, Sandra. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jay. My pleasure. So tell us how you spend your days in a deco. What's it like? Who do you talk to on a given day? You're on the phone, you're sending emails, who are you speaking with? Well, what's been very interesting is, as you know, because the unemployment is so low in Hawaii, it's very tricky with getting candidates as well as getting companies that are willing to hire us to find them good people. On one hand, people think, oh, well, it's got to be better now because of the fact that they can't find them on their own. That is partially true, but the problem is, if we can't find them, then there is no exchange of billing. So it's a challenge. But I've always felt that it's fun and because I feel like I'm being a marriage broker, I mean, when you make the right match, it is absolutely incredible. You follow them, don't you? Absolutely. I just check in and after they've been there maybe a week or two, and I just check in with how they're doing. When you walk in and the company is thrilled because they have a new wonderful employee and the employee is thrilled because they have a new wonderful job, you cannot beat that feeling as a matchmaker. Yeah. A matchmaker. A matchmaker. Exactly. It's fabulous. So, you know, I guess, if I wanted to be, and I'm not saying this is necessarily what I would want to be, but if I wanted to be a tech employment specialist like with the tech, what kind of a person, what kind of a person would I be, should I be? Well, for one thing, you've got to like people, correct? I know that's true with you. Yeah, you'd fit perfectly in that realm. And you know, you need to also kind of be a detective because as you know, people sometimes overstate their qualifications. No, no. You have to kind of delve beneath the surface and try and find everything out that you can that's pertinent to the situation. We also offer our clientele or the company's employees a guarantee. So we will guarantee that the person's going to work out and stay. And so because of that, you really want to make the right match. It's not worth anybody's time to make the wrong match and have to go and redo it or refine. These are bad tastes. Absolutely. Absolutely. So what kind of, I mean, since you raised that, let me ask, what kind of economics are there? Well, I come to you as an employer and need somebody and, you know, I would because there's a shortage, right? Right. Of skilled employees. So I come to you and I say, find me somebody. What do you say about the economics? What's it going to cost me for that? Well, and I'm just going to use an average because it does, it will vary depending on if it's nonprofit, depending on if it's really difficult. I would say the average rate is about 20% of the annualized salary. Okay. So as I mentioned, that does come with a guarantee that if the person doesn't work out. Within? Well, it's a 90 day guarantee, but it's the first 30 days that you would get all of your money back. Oh, that's a slight exception. That's right. Or a perfect replacement. So one of the other. A replacement. Yeah. Because I'd probably be interested in a replacement. That's right. If one didn't work out. That's right. You know, in my law firm, we had a rule of one of six. And I'm not sure that that ratio still works anymore, but one out of six people you think are qualified to do the job will actually be able to do the job. Interesting. You have a rule like that. No, but that's an interesting way to look at it though. And it worked out for you. I mean, that really worked out to be one of six. Well, we hit the one, you know, pretty, pretty often. Yeah. But sometimes we hit the five. Oh. I see. Okay. Okay. Now, you know, you had asked me, you know, as far as coming on the show about tech jobs per se. I wanted to ask you about the market. Right. Okay. So, you know, first, since you want to get serious about this, we don't get too serious here. Yeah. What is tech? What is tech for you? What's the definition of the kinds of jobs that you that are on your desk? Okay. I guess the definition of a tech job would be related to computers and touching computers and programming and software. Information technology. Exactly. So that is the true, pure definition of tech of surprisingly what I have been working on, what seems to be really hot now is construction. I'm talking about project managers, estimators, everything related to construction. Construction. Yes. Because as you know, in Kakako and everything, there's tons of stuff going on. But when you asked me to talk about tech jobs and coming on the show for that, I actually did a little bit of homework. And I was surprised, I mean, almost shocked that, and I want to give some statistics here. I want people that are out there to know that there is a ton of quote, tech jobs available. Okay. LinkedIn right now has posted 500 tech jobs in Honolulu. Really? Yes. What does that mean? It means you're opening something? Yes. Yes. Openings. Okay. Now, on the other hand, another vehicle that I know all your listeners are aware of is Career Builder. Career Builder has posted 128 tech jobs. These are just tech jobs. And another vehicle that has posted 224 tech jobs is Indeed. So those are kind of the major players for that is a lot of jobs. Now, of course, a lot of it's overlap, right, because people post their jobs in multiple places. So that doesn't mean that you just would add them up and that's the grand total. But I was very pleasantly surprised because as I mentioned, what's keeping me busy right now is construction. So I'm thinking to myself, hey, I'm overlooking a big market there because if there's that many tech jobs that people are needing to fill, I should try and look into helping them in that arena. So that really was an eye-opener for me. Now, these are jobs that are posted where? Posted on their websites. No, they're posted on the major websites that people look at when they're looking for a job. So that's Career Builder, that's LinkedIn. And then the... It's on their sites then. And on Indeed. You don't have an exclusive on these. Not at all. But you could help a person figure out where to go and what the good marriage is going to be. That's right. So I was pleasantly surprised to see how many jobs were posted on those sites. And I think part of the reason why these tech type people that are looking for work know these sites as well is because they're technical. So they know how to use a computer. They know how to search for things, et cetera. So I think most of them have the inside track on these jobs. It's a question of them applying and everything because we're talking everything from the big companies, the city and county, the federal government, UH, Hawaiian Airlines, Bank of Hawaii, HMS, these are all tech jobs for those major corporations as well as many others. Well, what you say raises an interesting question that affects you and a deco. I'm sure it's different now than it was 18 years ago. And I'm sure that more people who are looking for jobs are fully aware of Craig's list and fully aware that they can go on one of these sites and then it'll say employment opportunities and go direct. They don't think too much about you. They don't think too much about a deco. That's right. They do their own thing. And I guess there's also a ratio on the employee side, one out of six or whatever it may be, not every possibility is going to work. That's right. But it's free because it's free with you anyway, isn't it? If I'm an employee looking for a job, I don't have to pay you anything. No, that's it. It is free to them. And so that raises an interesting question because with the unemployment solo, we are getting more employers that are willing to quote, hire us or use us. They're slightly desperate. Exactly. But of course, many times they have started on their own looking and maybe after a month or so they've just given up because they've either gotten a lot of garbage or they still don't have what they want. So then they'll come and go, find me something. I'll pay, find me someone, right? So of course, the challenge is finding the person. So a lot of times what's happening is we are having to take people that are already working. I mean, you don't necessarily want someone that's just sitting around unemployed to fill the job. The best people are already working, right? So that's, see, so that's- Take them away. Exactly. So that's something that we can do that the company can't really call up their competitor and say, oh, you know, can I speak to someone? So I'd like to hire, right? I'd like to be mad at everybody else, yeah. So that's something that we can do, you see, as part of what our job entails. So that makes it very interesting, you know, taking. And I've asked some employers, I've said, so out of your competition, do you know some fabulous people that are working that you might want on your team, you know? And sometimes they'll come up with some great ideas, and that's a perfect place for me to start, right? I'm sure the person in the middle can act as the agent. That's right. That's right. So that works out really well. On the other hand, when I'm talking to candidates, I ask them, what's your dream job like? I mean, where would you like to work? And we can also market the candidates. So if they say, oh, I'd want to work here. I'd want to work there. Then I'd tell them, you know, that I could certainly make a, you know, make a call, check to see what might be available, market them directly. Yeah. So you can give them an angle. But I would guess, just from what you said up to now, is that there's not so many employees looking for work through you as there are employers looking for work through you right now in this market. That's right. That's right. That would be probably the case right now. So it makes it a very interesting balance. Yeah, it does. But let's look at exactly how you would operate on behalf of an employer, OK? You have to test people. That's right. You have to find out how good they really are. Because as you said, not everybody gives you the straight, skinny qualifications. So when you're working for an employer, and you could be working for either or both, I suppose, how do you measure the applicant who walks in the door to be sure that you've got somebody who's not going to be a disappointment as against the specifications for the job? Well, if we have a detailed job description, which obviously we don't always have, a deco, believe it or not, has 3,000 assessments. So this is everything from personality types to basic accounting functions. Can they do GL? Can they do journal entries? Can they do AR, AP, payroll? So there are all these tests available that are called assessments that I can email to a potential candidate and see what kind of results everything, including typing, data entry, we can measure all of that. How do you know that somebody isn't just shining you on about their qualifications? Part of it's going to be smell, right? Part of, you know, you've been around a long time. You know when somebody's shining you. But how do you tell objectively so that you can sort of guarantee or not guarantee, but give a real assurance to the employer that this is real? OK, so first of all, there's these assessments that are available that I can have them do either in our office or they can do it at home. The other thing is that I always check references. Now, you know, and I always tell them, I want manager, your manager references. I don't want friends, family, and co-workers. Yeah, yeah. And the reason is I tell them that these references are basically work ethic type references. You know, how do you work on your pressure, how do you work in the office, how do you get along with everybody? Come in on time. But you're right, exactly, the timeliness. But the last question is, would you rehire this person? So a manager is the best person, or the person that hires them, because if it's a co-worker, if it's friends or family, they can't answer that question logically or truthfully. So I tell them, this is why I always want managers, is because of the fact that hopefully your previous managers are gonna say absolutely yes, hated to lose them, it was wonderful, and everything. So that's another check. So we've got the assessments and we've got reference checking. You know, I love this conversation and you're gonna love my next question, which is gonna be right after this break. And my next question, just to put you on notice, is how can you tell when the reference is telling you the truth? But be right back and Sandra is gonna answer that question. This is Think Tech, that's Sandra O'Hara. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. From the foundation for a better life. Aloha, my name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea. Law Across the Sea comes on every other Monday at 11 a.m. Please join us. I like to bring in guests that talk about all types of things that come across the sea to Hawaii. Not just law, love, people, ideas, history. Please join us for Law Across the Sea. Bingo, I told you we'd be back and we are back with Sandra O'Hara of ADECO. She's a Tech Employment Specialist for 18 long years and she doesn't look 18 yet. That's the magic of it, whatever it is, it's doing well and agrees with you, Sandra. Well, thank you. So my zinger question, okay, you call up the boss and you're gonna get all kinds of different answers. It's never the two same and they're not necessarily trained in how to respond to you. Sometimes yes and they may say, sorry, Sandra, we never disclose information like that. Now that's laden with meaning, laden with meaning. What do you make of it when this manager person that was listed as a reference says something like, sorry, we don't actually... And believe it or not, there are many corporations that don't allow their people to give references so they will give an answer like, oh, you have to call HR or they can tell you that, oh, they work from this state to this state, but I'm sorry we can't provide any information. Yeah, name records, sir and ma'am. Exactly, so that does come up. Believe it or not, there are times if I have either red flags or the chemistry is just not, doesn't seem right, you don't have to contact people that are on a person's reference. In other words, this is a small town. So if I see that they've worked at the Bank of Hawaii and believe it or not, our clients do the same thing. They don't care what a person says their reference is. They'll call up something they know and they say, well, give me the real scoop on this person. Is that okay? Absolutely. Now even if the employee that the applicant doesn't know that you're calling. That's right. It's okay to call. That's right. Small town, very valuable. And I've had that happen because I've had clients go, I think I'm gonna do some checking myself. They'll call, they'll look at the resume, they'll see a company they know and they'll pick up the phone and they'll call the president. President to president. Could you give me the real scoop on this person? You face to be a president. So I say, you can't control that, right? It's a free world, it's open information. You can't say, don't call this person, don't call this person. Does anybody worry about defamation, that kind of claim? I mean, suppose, and this is an extreme example, but suppose the CEO says, that applicant's terrible and it's really awful and don't hire him or her. And it's because he doesn't like him. It's not really true. Now, do people worry about defamation in this context? I'm not sure in that context, because if it was an exception, like only one person, but others had just raised about this person, then it could be a real personal thing, right? Cause there are people that have personal vendetta. Small town. That's right, it's a very small time. So again, as I said, I would really do due diligence and try to cover as much. So you try to get triangulation from various points of view. Exactly. Yeah. Just to make it fair to everybody, you know, to the applicant as well. So. Now, suppose you get a, I really enjoy this conversation. Suppose you get a reference of manager and the manager without any corporate policy on it says, I never discussed that, I can't discuss that. And there's no good reason, you know, there's no corporate policy, small company, but that's what he or she says to you. I mean, do you ever take away a message that something went wrong here? Exactly. He's trying to protect himself, but also, you know, doesn't want to make stink with the employee. So he's going to just give you a flat effect. Exactly. And how can you tell when that's real or not? Well, I don't know about telling whether that's real or not, but what I would do is I would move on to other references. In other words, you know, it's not fair, like you mentioned, it's just a one person didn't like another thing. Suppose they all said that. If they all said that, then that should be a very clue, right? That there's a problem. Learning. That's right, that's right. So anyway, but again, just to be fair to everybody, you know, that's where I would do my due diligence and continue further check. I'm going to flip it over to the other side of the coin now. Suppose you get a manager who says Joe Dokes is the kindest, most wonderful human being I have ever known in my life. And he's so great and wonderful and on and on and on and on. That's to the point where it's hyperbole. How do you deal with that? Because, you know, sometimes that's not true. That's right. That's not true. And he's just a kind of person for one reason or another who feels he has to boost his, maybe there's a deal going on with him and the employee, the applicant. How do you gauge that? Well, that's why you don't base everything on one reference, right? That's why you have to, you know, continue on with multiple references. And just to see what, you know, what checks out the checks and balances. So I would definitely not just stop with one. Especially if he came back like that. Yeah. Now, do you reveal what you learned? You reveal what you learned, I assume, to your client, the employer. Do you ever tell the employee what you learned in your inquiries? Not in a direct sense, because it really is confidential. We don't, you know, I use a form, actually, an outline where there's some set questions. But we don't tell the employee, oh, you know, I'm so sorry, but so-and-so, you know, it was not a good reference. Yeah, it was not a good reference because it is very, it is not good in future relations. That's right, that's right. So we don't, you know, share that and everything. But I was gonna mention a couple of other things. I don't know if your readers read their Hawaii business news, but we were featured in an issue in April of last year where they talked about all the different headhunters and it was called Secrets of Headhunters. Oh, good. It's really nice, it includes not only a deco, as you can see on the first page, but others in the field are quote competitors as well. And it has amazed me that I have candidates walking in that have made copies of this article and look in my picture and they go, oh, we came to you because we saw your picture and I thought, well, that's really quite nice. Wait till you see what happens after this show. Well, I was telling your people before you came in that I wanted to also offer your listeners something. A deco publishes a salary guide. And believe it or not, most things that are done with companies that are based on the mainland, they never include Hawaii. But a deco does include Hawaii in terms of salary guide. So I was looking and thinking that, oh, I would tell your listeners that they can pick up salary guides from my office. Well, so the last one I had is dated 2017 and I was asking my manager, well, do we have others and can I offer the people that are listening to come by our office and pick them up? He goes, well, it's all online now. So what you need to do is make sure that they have your email address. And so your station does have my email address that whoever's interested can send us an email and then we will enter it in a form and we will get them a salary guide. So this would be helpful to both the HR managers, right? Because it gives all this information on all the different types of jobs as well as to perspective people looking for work. Yeah, you know what, you're worse. That's right. This is really important when you're negotiating a salary. That's right. So I thought that'd be interesting to offer it to your listeners to please contact me and my email address is gonna be published. And so therefore, I mean, I'd be more than happy to set it up. What is it? DeSandra.ohara at adeconea.com and because I don't want them to misspell the adeconea, they said that they were putting it on. Well, there it is. There it is. You see it? Okay. I'd love to hear from your listeners that would like a copy of the latest 2018 salary guide that's now published to you. Yeah, I think so. It's the grease that facilitates the whole process to know where you are. But I want to take the last few minutes of our discussions and talk about what's happened in the 18 years in terms of the market in this state. You know, I remember the days that you do too because that's when we met of 221 of all these startup companies that had money coming in, investment money from one source or another through 221, they had the money to burn, so to speak. And they hired a lot of people. It was a very active market. And I remember all these tech events and organizational meetings where you were there. You were, everybody coming over to you and say, hi, Sandra, here's my card, Sandra. You know, it's not the same anymore. 221 went down. A lot of the talent left town. And they're both interdependent, the tech companies and the tech talent. If I can't find tech talent, I'm not going to have a tech company. If I'm tech talent and I can't find a company, I'm not going to hear what we say around. And after 221 went down, I remember a lot of tech talent left town, summarily, that was that. So, okay, let's assume that, but how has the mix of jobs changed? You're talking about information technology. Well, you know, there's also biochemistry. I mean, there's all the sciences in the university, all those startups that once existed, and I don't know if they still do. Are you still involved in that? What is the situation now compared to, say, 2003 or 2004? I'm not as involved, mainly because I know that they're there because I've attended some of these open house events where they have cohorts there. Yeah, right, right. And they look like they're in high school almost. But they definitely seem to be, coming up with opportunities and they're being given money to do what they're doing. So, I think it's still alive and well, but it's just on a much smaller scale than when 221 was extremely active and we could see a lot more money pouring in. So, it's nice to see that there, you know, people still, that's right, there's something going on. You know, Hank Rogers and his group is still, you know, active, that's right. And so, that still exists, so that's very encouraging. On the scale issue that you mentioned a minute ago, it seems to me that Hawaii had aspirations of having large scale here. I mean, I remember Ed Kadman's view of the tech campus around the medical school didn't happen. You know, all kinds of possibilities where there would be, you know, a lot of tech companies come from the mainland, do business here, hire local and all this didn't happen. And so, the question I put to you, and this is really something that I think about all the time, is if it was aspirational back in the early 2000s, and if it has sort of slowed down, maybe a lot actually slowed down, since that time around the end of 221, what are the probabilities, possibilities now? You know, Hawaii dreamed so hard, all the dreamers in Hawaii dreamed about this becoming a tech state and when we speak of diversification, we're speaking of diversification into tech, not innovation, tech. That's what it was, because we knew that on the mainland things, big things were happening in Silicon Valley and all that. So the question is, you know, when you take a reduction the way we did for one reason or another, and here we are now, is it still possible for Hawaii to be a state that is seriously diversified into technology, or is that something that has come and gone? You know, I'm gonna say it does appear that it is somewhat come and gone and that's why this whole construction industry is just booming and look at all the cranes and look at all what's going on in Kakaako and both in affordable housing as well as multi-million dollar penthouses as well. So I think that that is what has drawn the market is a lot of that has taken over, which is in a way unfortunate because tech is an exciting industry and there's so much potential. And so I don't know if I would honestly say that it's dead, but it's definitely on the back burner as compared to what it was when we were in Australia. One of the great takeaways from me in this discussion is that you're not only doing tech, you're hedging your bets with construction, okay? And I remember seriously one tech, a lot of people were coming, a lot of local kids had made some money on the mainland when it came back in the early 2000s to be involved in the tech industry. Everybody thought was gonna happen, which didn't happen. But a lot of them stayed. I mean, some of them left. They said, this isn't working out. I gotta go now. But some of them stayed and they went into other industries and I'm not gonna name his name, but there was one guy who was pretty famous at the time who had made money in the mainland, came back, everybody had great expectations, he could do fantastic things. That didn't work out. So he went into real estate. And he worked for a developer developing properties. And so my question to you, this is the last question I will have time to ask, Senator, is if I were a young person, a little adrift about what I was gonna do, but dedicated to be in Hawaii, a millennial day, from all that you know about the markets that are here, the markets that have demand. What should I do? What should I study? What should I address myself to as a good job that'll take me to a good career, allow me to buy my house and stay here, anything? Boy, that's a tough one. I mean, that's really a tough one because as I say with the millennials now, part of, to me, their problem is their work ethic. It's like, what's in it for me? So it's very challenging for them to seek out some of these careers because of that. So in terms of what is the next up and coming thing, one of the things that I know I was privy to seeing is combining the real estate arena with high tech, they're doing some phenomenal 3D type. Selling properties, modeling properties. Exactly, but it's very upscale and it's very sophisticated. So you can see these fabulous apartments and they're doing these panoramic views and you can see what views you can see out the windows and things like that. So kind of combining tech with brick and mortar. Yeah, other things. Other things, exactly. Classical industries, hotels, for example. Real estate is a perfect example. All aspects of real estate. I know some people who've made money this way. And I think you're absolutely right. And you take it, the tech is the tail that wags the dog, so to speak, and all of a sudden you're making big money on a classic conventional industry by tweaking it. Right, exactly. So that to me is what's exciting, is the merger of the two is the way of the future. It's a great spot to know that. When people come in to see you, I mean, are you gonna be available, Sandra, when people come in to see you and say, look, I'm a drift, I'm a millennial, I don't know what to do, I'm living at home, I can't get a job, would you please counsel with me? I'll give you my CV, I'll give you my grades. Tell me what you think, would you talk to that person? Absolutely, absolutely, my door is open. I love to talk to all kinds of people because it really gives me insight as well, right? Sure, sure. And as I said, I believe that everybody's employable, and so by finding out more about these different people, I believe that there are jobs for them. So it's not a cookie cutter thing, and that's why I love talking to you. Yeah, you need an assistant? Can't afford you. Thank you, Sandra. Sandra O'Hara, a deco, my friend for a long, long time, still doing it and doing it well. Thank you so much, Sandra. Thank you, Jay, for having me on your show.