 Telecom Exchange CEO roundtables, both for our guests joining us here at Telecom Exchange NYC, as well as our viewers who are joining us on Periscope, as well as on JSA TV. We'd also like to thank our Wi-Fi sponsor, Kelly Dry. Our first panel is on the arrival of Internet of Things, 5G connected devices, data volume, and business opportunities. The panel is moderated by my friend, Ronald Gruya. He's a perfect fit for this panel as the director of emerging telecoms at Frost and Sullivan. Ron covers topics such as 4 and 5G, SDN, NFV, IOT, as well as others. He's a regular speaker at telecom conferences. You may have seen him at Mobile World Congress and IT Expo, to name a few. He's also a contributor for Forbes, as well as written for the street.com, Silicon Angel, CIO Review, Information Week, and others. Ron, thanks for joining us. Thank you, Jamie. And I wanted to thank JSA for the opportunity to be here, it's a pleasure. So, we have a distinguished group of panelists here. So, Frank Ray from Microsoft, Moby and Ken from AT&T, and Tom Ghillie from Amenta Partners. I'm gonna try to make this session a fun one. We have quite a range of topics. So, without further ado, let's, how about if we just start by, we'll start with Frank and go around until Tom. Just make a quick introduction of yourselves. Just say, what's your company's currently addressing or engaged in Internet of Things or 5G? The Microsoft Cloud and Infrastructure Operations Division within Microsoft. We work closely with our Azure division, with our IoT suite within Azure, as well as all the storage opportunities and big data analytics. Moby and Ken, I work for a small company called AT&T. We're a headquarter out of Dallas. I run products and strategy for our IoT platforms and solutions and looking forward to having an interesting discussion here. My name's Tom Ghillie. I'm with Momenta Partners. Just joined recently. I lead the Ventures and M&A activities within Momenta Partners. We have about 20 companies in our portfolio for investments and a large number of companies in advisory services. Prior to Momenta, I founded a company called Wadio, which was an application marketplace for connected device platforms. And I recently sold that company to Interdigital. Great. Okay, so we're sort of at an interesting point in the telecom industry because we have these huge amounts of data. So I don't know how many of you are familiar with the Cisco VNI forecast, show of hands. Or, you know, Erxon also puts out a similar report. So we're seeing this huge data explosion, you know, the applications, you know, videos. Of course, one of the top ones. Then, you know, when we start also looking at 5G, which is, you know, it's interesting too, because we're sort of, we're not even done with a 4G cycle yet. And for the first time in wireless history, we see carriers like AT&T, to name a few, that are engaging trials even before the specs get turned out. So how would this huge amount of data affect our natural infrastructure in a way, you know, we do business and we communicate? So maybe Tom, I'll start with you and then go around. That's a big question. It is pretty exciting. There are a lot of things that are happening. One of the first things I like to say when I start talking about this subject is the idea of connected devices, transmitting data over the network has been around for decades. We've been doing this and collecting the data and making use of it in operational centers within the organization. And it's been going over various networks. What we're seeing today, though, is the increase of choice over the networks for this data. That's number one. So we have the carriers, of course, but we also, we have satellite, Orbcom. I don't know if you follow Orbcom. It was trading at about $2, not too long ago. Now it's trading up near $10. Just at a successful launch of 12 Leos, low-Earth orbital satellites with SpaceX. It's a pretty interesting company. And then we have the conversation on low-power radio with SIGFox and SEMtec, Laura, and there's others in the play. Those are the two I'm watching. SEMtec stock is also improving on the back of what it is that they're putting into the market. A couple of other things that we're going to talk about that are indicators of big change in the data across the networks, such as the enterprise side of the organization, the business people within the organization, recognizing that the operational data that they've been collecting for decades is useful. We'll talk about that more about the volume of data. So it's a pretty exciting time. Yeah, so I think just to add on to what Tom said, that the amount of data is increasing, but interestingly, the rate at which the data is getting generated is also increasing. So a second derivative, if you will, is sort of increasing. So we are going to generate more data in a year probably than it's ever been created before. So now the question really is, what is good data? What is bad data? What is useful data and what's not useful data? But regardless of whether it's good data or not, it has implications for companies that are carrying data or managing data or processing data or storing data. Because even if it's bad data, it needs to go through some network, needs to go through fiber, needs to go through cellular, even if it's bad data, it probably needs to be stored somewhere because somebody is going to analyze it later. So it has implications on the network, significant implications on the network. And that's why standards like 5G are evolving. Some of the low power standards, whether it's SigFox or it's Cat1 or CatM or narrowband IoT, they would collect small amounts of data but from a very, very large number of devices. So I think data will continue to increase. And I think it's important for companies like myself as well as Microsoft to help provide the infrastructure to manage that data in the future. And I think we are up for the challenge. Great, Frank. I'm not terribly concerned with the amount of data. And definitely, Mobine is correct in the creation of the data. I think that we as an industry, be it technology companies or investment companies, telecommunications operators, we're going to find a way to manage that data, to carry that data, to transmit that data. I think the key that we're going to have to figure out is when you have somebody collecting data from a farm of cattle, there's 5,000 cattle and they're in the middle of nowhere and they're crossing and sending that data to another company or headquarters in a completely different geographic region. And you're talking about crossing geos, crossing carriers, crossing networks, how are we managing this exchange of this data, whatever volume that it is. So I think the amount of data, how it's being created, how it's being transmitted is really going to stress some of the existing business models that are out there in managing traffic in today's telecommunications world. Great, OK. So I think this is a great segue for the next question, which is how are we storing and accessing all this data? And also, what are we going to do with it? I know we're sort of just starting to see progress being done in machine learning and such. I know Ray Kurzweil, one of my favorite futurists, said that we're close to that singularity. I don't know how many of you are familiar with that concept where in machine learning, the machine actually becomes smarter and smarter until it actually could be smarter than us. And it was funny because I was just talking to some folks that have solutions in that space and they all talk about a kill switch where we don't let the machines kind of take over, just in case, right? But anyway, so maybe we'll start with Mubin, how are we storing and accessing all this data and then we'll go to Tham and then Frank. Yeah, so I think before we get to the storing of the data, I think the important thing that we see from data creation point of view is that the biggest benefits are actually going to come from real time usage of the data. So if you were, take Frank's example of a cattle, if you were collecting that data in a localized way before and now you have access to it in real time, take that on a fleet of trucks, take that on any asset that you are connecting. That real time data access allows you to make certain decisions faster, bring more efficiency to your operations, maybe even change the way you do business. Maybe I will rent out a tractor as opposed to leasing it to the farmer, I'll lease it by usage or I'll lease it by how much that tractor worked on a day. So I think more than the storage, I think storage is an easier problem. I think transmission is a relatively easier problem. I think the important problem you mentioned, machine learning, it's all about how you use that data in the fastest way possible so you can make faster decisions and make your operations better than they were before. Right. So kind of like analytics on the fly, so to speak. That's right, stream analytics or whatever you wanna call them. I think that's going to be the key in IoT on how you use that data. Right, right, okay. Tom? I see a few trends in the industry as it relates to data. We hear about data all the time. I'm at my family dinner table, my son works at Uber, he's a developer for the back end. The amount of data that they're producing is astronomical, they make that data open so that third parties can gain access to it. They have so much data that they have to move to different vendors to be able to deal with the growth of data. I can't be specific, but it's pretty impressive. My wife works in the office of the CTO at Microsoft now. She came out of healthcare. She did a very large project at one of the large healthcare facilities here in New York City. And a lot of data is locked up in data silos. And so the big transition in data is to unlock that data from the silos and then make that available to other parties, third parties, for research. So there's a pent up opportunity to gain access to the data. One of my companies has talked about stress of data on the system. They generate over a petabyte of data a month, over 200 data centers across the United States, Canada, Latin America, UK. This is IoT data. It's a pretty impressive amount of data that they're producing and then generating results out of that data. And as Movin said, the dealing with it in real time is important. Having to process that data as a batch is okay, but a lot of insight can be gained from looking at the data now. What we see is in the industry is a lot of open source projects enabling companies, certainly the companies that I'm investing in, they come to market much more rapidly. Other companies like Cloudera, Mapper, Hortonworks that are creating no SQL back in data stores. We certainly have Amazon and Microsoft offering quite a bit of services and data storage and real time analytics and stream processing. So I think the open source is an interesting trend. It's been a trend for the last decade, but it's in the recent years, it's being recognized in the VCs and the investment community and those large companies, even Microsoft has changed its tune on open source in the last few years, thankfully. It has adopted and braced it sincerely. I think it's really important for Microsoft. I think we see the stock change in Microsoft in the back of many things and that's one of the changes that I see. Another thing I see with, for instance, AT&T, they're opening up APIs so that third parties and early stage companies can gain access to the services of a large operator. AT&T, M2X is something that I know that several of my companies are playing around with as being an interesting service for main T&T, a brison with thingspace. And there's other operators that are making major investments and making APIs available for data processing, data storage. And I think that's another important trend early. I'm not sure what the success is yet, but it's a good sign. Great, excellent. Okay, Frank. Well, I mean, I don't have too much to argue about what both gentlemen here have said. It's certainly definitely right. I mean, we have a couple of products to manage storage of data and analytics as well. I think one of the challenges that we're gonna have is we still, there's still so many devices and sensors that need to be installed out there. I think that the business is gonna be stressed a little bit in how we collect that data, what the costs of that data is. You know, we talk about 50 billion devices. And if you look at some of the traffic and network costs that some companies have been suggesting anywhere between $500 a year, I mean, it's an astronomical number. I'm not sure exactly who's going to be paying for all of that. So I think that needs to be addressed in order to really get to a number of 50 billion and then collecting all of that data, storing that data, analyzing it, I definitely think that's a technological problem that we're going to be able to solve. One of the challenges that we're gonna see is a lot of these sensors that are out there, it's gonna take a lot of time to gather all of that data and to be able to find any trends out of that data. One or two sensors monitoring traffic doesn't really do you any good. You're gonna need thousands and thousands of sensors in a city and they're gonna have to run over a longer period of time to be able to see what the trends are so you can then automate your systems for traffic flows and within a given city. So I think we're gonna see some challenges that really don't have very much to do with technology. They're just kind of tried and through issues of managing time and managing people and managing resources to be able to make the most out of that data and there's only so many technical solutions for that. Great, great. Yeah, this is certainly a very interesting topic and I was just thinking back to the comment that Tom made about the open source and I remember back in 1993 I installed the Slackware Linux and I was having trouble because when I ran the FDisk to do the partition on my hard drive, physical and logical address did not match. So because this was Slackware Linux and at that time Linus Torvalds was still a student at the Hosinki University of Technology. I sent him a quick email. I said, hey, this is not working. Can you help me? He says, I know what the bug is because you have one of those big hard drives over one gig and that 700 MAG barrier and he says I'm gonna recompile and send you the binaries. So this is the power of open source as early as 1992, 1993. I framed that email. I still haven't told you that. Anyway, so when we talk about data and all this, we keep thinking faster throughputs and we think of 5G and a lot of people, when they look at 5G, they say, wow, it's just another evolutionary step in the wireless industry and perhaps that's one way of thinking about it but maybe there's an opportunity here for that to also not just be evolutionary but revolutionary, right? To maybe an opportunity to introduce new business models and what I mean by that is two-sided business models think of maybe Girls Night Out in a pub, right? The pub gives out the drinks free to the ladies so hopefully more gentlemen will show up, right? The telcos unfortunately have been so-so in this space. I guess Toll Free Service is one of these two-sided business models where you not only think about your downstream customers but also upstream, right? And you're offering free long distance for free, right? I mean, there's other examples, entity DoCoMo with iMode, but anyway, is there an opportunity maybe for 5G to introduce this new business models and what's your take on that? And maybe I'll start with you, Frank, and then move to Morbine and Tom. Yeah, so I think there's definitely gonna need to be some new business models by the telco providers to think about how they manage all these billions of devices. When you're talking about this level of sensors and devices, you start to reach this critical mass where you, again, you need to push the price down of the data to even make it more valuable. The value of the data does not scale at the same level as the number of devices. At some point you start installing so many devices where the data coming from that device does not provide the same amount of value as when you only have the first set of devices in an operational setting, for example. So you have to keep the cost of that very low and at some point you hit a critical mass in which it costs you actually too much money to bill for that traffic or to bill for that service and then you're actually gonna get for it or what somebody would be willing to pay for that. So I think the providers are gonna have to take a look at, and I know some of them are doing them today, just having a one-time setup fee, not charging for any of that traffic. I mean the individual traffic itself is going to be very small. It's in the aggregate that you start looking at. Lots of data. So I think they're definitely gonna have to take a look at the way that they're charging for this. How are they setting it up? How are they billing for it? And maybe not always been the most advanced in changing their business models or changing their billing and provisioning systems in the past. So I think this is, we're definitely gonna have to take a look at how that gets managed. Again, billions of sensors, you need to be able to turn them on, they need to auto-connect, they need to start sending data, and it needs to go and it needs to be bi-directional. And so it's gonna be, it's gonna definitely be different than just having your washing machine tell you whether or not it needs a maintenance or not, right? So. Yeah, the cost of megabyte of transmission continues to go down, just like cost of silicon continues to go down. So that, you know, from a consumer and an enterprise point of view, that's a good thing. 5G obviously, the more efficient technology transfer a lot of data. But I think in the IoT world, it's, I think, I don't know if Frank or Tom, somebody mentioned that, you know, we need all kinds of networks. The IoT solutions are not going to be just 5G or just satellite. There's going to be many, many architectures that will be put into place, whether it's localized mesh networks in an unlicensed band, or it is a hybrid of Wi-Fi in cellular or other architectures from a data collection point of view. And each architecture will have its costs and use cases that will target and hopefully those targets meet the needs and the ROIs of those use cases. So I think that there is room for solution architectures in the home, on the street level in smart cities. There's, we architectures deployed, you know, globally, as well as for high-speed transmissions, whether you are transferring lots of videos. I think it's China Telecom or somebody deployed an insane amount of connected cameras in a few cities. So that's a tremendous amount of data flowing through the network. But at the same time, you cannot expect that those costs will be negligible, right? So use cases will define the costs and the pricing and the architecture. So I think over time, companies represented here and others are going to come up with ways to meet the needs. I think we're gonna get to, whether you believe 50 billion or 20 billion or 15 billion, it's a large B number over the next 10 years. And so there'll be many architectures to support those billions of devices that are coming. Excellent, thank you. 5G, it's an interesting horizon, something that's happening in the future. So there's some unknown what it means to what it is that we're going to be doing. I think Mubin, when he was talking about multi-transports and protocols, I do see that. And I think operators and those that are handling the transports are going to need to recognize that, and they already are. And so that their customers are not burdened with having to figure it out. In fact, that's a part of the 5G horizon. It's not just 5G, the technology, but what the operators and those that are providing the transport services need to do to create less burdened to the customer base, because it is a burden. I was talking to Core and Stream Technologies, a couple of companies that do device management connectivity, and their biggest concern is the operators, recognizing that it's important to manage the connectivity, manage the devices for the customer. I think that's probably true. I think the operators need to reduce that burden. And 5G could be that horizon where operators are saying, okay, I'm going to be a full service shop and move up the food chain and offer more value than just transport. Which also means the applications. One of the nice things about 5G is the promise of more bandwidth. Certainly that means more customers, but if there's an opportunity to put more data across that network, it opens up new opportunities and markets that are nascent because of the lack of bandwidth. I think IPTV or security cameras is a really good example. However, I don't think it'll be security cameras as they're being deployed today, where it's raw data coming across that network. Security cameras are going to be much more intelligent, pushing the intelligence to the edge, fog computing as Cisco calls it. It's the idea of being more intelligent at the edge, reducing the bandwidth and the back halt to the central service. But you still need that bandwidth. There's a lot of value in the analytics that would occur at the edge. And the faster I can get that back, the more useful it's going to be. IPTV is an example of security, certainly, but that's raw. There's so much information about human behavior that could be useful to the enterprise. Now this sounds a little big brother-ish, I suppose, but it's happening now. There's one small company that's growing dramatically, putting park benches into cities. They know now how to sell park benches into a city. The cities are paying for these park benches. It's crazy. The park benches are self-sustaining, intelligent park benches that track human behavior on the park bench. They know who's on the bench, when they're on that bench, and they can pass that information not only into the city, the municipality, but then into organizations that can market services directly to the individual. That's an interesting indication. Now that company is going to expand. I can't be specific, but they've been so successful at getting the park benches into the municipalities. I can see some great growth in other non-intelligent devices that you see as you're walking down the street. Think about it. Every one of those devices had some intelligence. How are you going to deal with that bandwidth? I think 5G is on that horizon promise of cost and availability and operator awareness of offering more services to the industry. I think there's two interesting points that you made there. I'd like to hear Mobeen's thoughts on that. First is moving up the chain. Maybe you had some challenges in the telecommunications industry in the past in doing that. So I'd like to get your insight on that. And then the second one was moving the intelligence to the edge, but also the amount of data that you talked about that's being created. How and where is that being stored? How is that dichotomy being addressed? I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, so I think up the stack is an interesting question for the telcos. And we've been successful in some areas. We've not been successful in other areas. Specifically in IoT, we actually have made a conscious decision to move up the stack and actually working with Microsoft on a lot of these things with your Azure IoT team where we are collecting and organizing the data and then also helping make some real-time decisions even before that gets to the infrastructure pieces in Microsoft. So allowing the users or the enterprises to code rules and logic so that less data gets transmitted or decision is taken at the edge to what Tom was saying. So I think those are good trends. They will continue. And I think it'll allow better solutions to be put in place. What was your second question? About moving the intelligence to the edge and how do you store it? That's really a very, very interesting. In terms of the dichotomy of data, not all data needs to be stored at all times, right? So if the value of a pressure is X and if it continues to be X in a time series way, I don't need to collect that. It's only when X deviates by 3% and that's when it becomes interesting. So I think there are all these kinds of rules that you don't have to collect raw data but you just collect the deltas, for example. And so I think edge computing and edge analytics allows us to do those kinds of things and also reduce the overall cost of the solution, which is good for everybody. Actually, this is already happening. HPE just introduced the edge line IoT appliance which is introducing that concept of moving the intelligence to the edge and they're using Vertica analytics and also partnering with GE. I think they have the solution with FlowServe. They do those pumps in the oil and gas industry and that's a huge pain point for them. How can we shorten the outage? Likesysco's, by the way, also doing this and they're partnering with IBM, Dr. Watts and putting that intelligence on the routers. Anyway, let's move on to the next one. ABI research and others like Cisco have done a lot of forecasting. They talk about 1.6 data bytes of data to be captured by 2020 and they're talking about 2025 IoT applications will have a total economic impact of about 11.1 trillion dollars. So what's the current investment climate for IoT services and where do you see this heading in the years to come? So Tom, since you're your momenta partners, VC is heavily invested in IoT startups. We'll start with you and then go to Frank and we'll be. All right, a couple of responses to that question. One, I see organizations waking up that had been sleeping through this marketing hype around IoT and the amount of data. Two very different industries. On one side, the enterprise software companies. We start to see it with Salesforce, SAP, Oracle starting to talk about IoT and that's great. There's three that I would watch that are really powerful in the integration of enterprise software services. That's Informatica, MuleSoft and Bumi. Bumi was acquired by Dell. Dell has now made a major investment in integrating the services from hardware to software and moving into the enterprise systems. You have MuleSoft and Informatica. Of those two, Informatica is interesting. They were public, they were brought private by a large private equity firm. So we don't know what the revenue is but we know what it was and it's high. They're in just about every Fortune 1000, let's say Fortune 100 company for enterprise application integration. The large integrators, Cognizant, Tata, Capgemini, use Informatica for organize the enterprise systems. They're waking up and they're recognizing that there's a lot of value that's locked up in the connected device data on the operational side of the organization. So we'll see in the next three years these organizations driving, almost I'm calling it a data pull from the operational side of the organization to make it available to the business decision makers, the CMO, the CEO, those that are making the product decisions or the investment decisions in the organization. I think that's a big opportunity. Now, a completely different shift. Another industry, electronic suppliers. They're the ones that are selling the chips, the devices into the markets. Billions and billions of dollars. These companies are Avnet. Future Electronics, Aero, Digikey. They're hired and staffed IoT leaders. They're trying to put together an end-to-end solution for their customer base, which is frustrated because they buy the device, the gateway. So let's say they buy a multi-tech or a cradle point gateway. What next? So they're looking to anyone to help them solve that problem. And for the electronics supply industry to say, okay, well maybe we'll give it a shot as a real industry indicator for the trend in the industry and where investments are going to be made. Two investments, I think you're seeing more acquisitions. So there's now investments in companies that will exit. For instance, I just sold my company. There's been a large number of exits on the back of some notable comparables and valuation on those companies. So more companies are looking to present themselves for sale. So I think you'll just continue to see that over the next three years, which is exciting for me. I like to see that sort of activity in the market. It shows vitality and growth, right? Yeah. Tom and I had a quick chat before via email. So it was definitely, I like getting his insight on what's going on. I think there's the way that we've been handling IoT, I think we're just really on the cusp of what's actually happening. I think when you start talking about the industrial internet of things, that's really where things are going to start to explode. But it's no longer going to be just inserting SIM cards into devices or sensors and putting them out there. I mean, again, we have to really change the entire supply chain to get to the type of volumes that people are talking about. And only at that point will we really start to see a lot of the value coming out. And I know some of the companies that Tom has mentioned are trying to address that. There's one I think is very interesting. I'm Microsoft, I don't like to drop names, but I think there's one that's very interesting that's trying to turn into a global utility. Tom mentioned its name before. And I think that that's being able to have this type of cross-border communication, cross-border interconnection, and sharing all of this data, again, whether it's a zeta byte, a terabit, or whatever the total number is, that data is only as valuable as how you can use it. And you have to get it from A to Z to get it to somebody who's going to be able to analyze it and take a look at it. However that analyzation happens, whether it's done by a machine and spits out a report, it needs to be put into practice in some way, shape, or form. So I think it's the exchange of this data and getting it into the hands of machines and individuals that can then put it into practice. Whether it's sending the data from a plane that's in flight that's going to schedule its next maintenance because it's finding out a delta in the engine. So it's en route to its next destination and automatically scheduling the maintenance and having that data then get to the right place and get to the mechanic that's waiting for that plane. This is a tremendous amount of exchange of information from A to Z and all these different endpoints. And I think that we're really just at the cusp of how we manage that, both in the IoT space but also within the telecommunication space. From an investment point of view, I mean, AT&T, Microsoft, Cisco, IBM, we're all suppliers. We're all coming from a supply site. So we look at the world with somewhat of a rose-colored glasses and because we expect this demand to come in. And so we are making investments, huge investments. But I think what's interesting to note is that on the demand side, companies are making investments. That means is when I go and talk to customers, there's a customer I talked to recently, they make pumps that go on fracking and rig sites. Now they are making investments, building a team inside that's going to be an IoT expertise team so that they can implement IoT solutions within their own products. Same thing on, just spoke with the CEO of a elevator company out in Europe. And they are looking to instrument elevators for many reasons. So some of them we're working on together. And these companies are making internal investments because they want to be the consumers of IoT, not the suppliers, but they want to be the consumers of IoT. So I think that trend is increasing significantly, which is good for everybody who's in that business. Excellent, okay. So when we talk about this massive data consumption, we can start to look at this as one big global network pushing beyond satellites and cell towers, but working together to offer maybe a more robust, interconnected infrastructure. So what are the key ingredients to deliver this vision in terms of partnership, connectivity and security? Maybe Mobin, as a service provider, we start and then we will go with Tom and Frank. Yeah, I mean, global is still a challenge in many ways. I mean, it's getting better. So for example, we have a global SIM product that you can pop into any asset and you can track that asset worldwide. And we build that product on the back of a lot of maybe 500 roaming agreements we have across the world with all the different service providers. But there are regulations that are different across the world, whether it's privacy regulations, data transfer regulations. There are regulations about storage of data and privacy. There are regulations around, there's technology hindrances around which bands in which countries. So for example, if we roll out the new CATM solution here in a certain band, and that's not the same across the world, how does a global manufacturer take advantage of that? They're not gonna get the cost curves that you really want them to. So I think there are a lot of challenges in global from simple things like multi-currency billing. A customer in Europe wants a billion euro and a customer in Mexico wants a billion US dollars, for example. So there is a lot of challenges in having a more streamlined operational system from a solutioning point of view. So I think we'll have to knock out those challenges one by one, but there are challenges. I don't wanna say that 5G or some of these investments are going to pave the, or IoT is going to pave the way and everything will be utopia. It's just, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of challenges ahead on to be a global solution provider. All right, thank you. I think it's really important we talked about how important it is for the customer base to be able to solve that problem of data across boundaries. A lot of Fortune 100 are in every country of the world. It's important to be able to solve that. I use 5G not so much as a technology, but it's a horizon. I think by the 2020 timeframe, we need to have really good answers to this issue of being able to move data and have access to data across international boundaries. There are some earlier stage companies that are addressing that. They're probably gonna turn into acquisition targets for the larger players as they prove out their technology set and covering the different transports, you know, low power, radio, satellite, cellular, and aggregating data, dealing with the currency issues and the tariffs and the radio technology differences between different parts of the world, which is, as Mobeen said, it's a big challenge, but it needs to be solved. The market pull, the customer base is willing to pay for it. So when I see that, I expect it will be, but it's not today. We do have a horizon on the beginning of the solution. Great, Frank. Yeah, I mean, if you figure out how to have a global ubiquitous network, please call me because I have some positions that are open, but yeah, you know, part of my job is to figure out where all the toll booths are in the telecommunications industry. No offense, Mobeen. But as I said before, the interconnection, the exchange of this data, that's really going to drive that. I think kind of the idea of having a global ubiquitous network, moving all of that around, still somewhat of a panacea perhaps, but I still have faith that we'll figure something out, but as Mobeen mentioned, we at Microsoft, we have data residency and data sovereignty issues that we need to resolve, so we have different types of deployments for our cloud, hybrid deployments for our cloud, and these look different from one geography to the next. We announced not too long ago a deployment that we did in Germany that has, and I lived in Germany for 13 years, so extremely strict data privacy laws that are very different than just their neighbors right across the border. So trying to manage all of that and then having this seamless transition of your data across regulatory environments, government environment, security environments, currency environments, I think we're still a ways off before we can just simply say, I'm going to pick this and it's going to look the same and it's all going to flow and my bill is going to look the same and I'm going to be able to fully automate that. So I think we need to get there. I mean, we're trying to do that at Microsoft. We are working with the folks at AT&T to try to accomplish that. Maybe I'm just a little bit, because I'm trying to figure out those problems. I can see where the challenges are. I think we still have a ways to go, but certainly it's good to set goals for yourself. Great. If I may add one more. Even without the global, let's take global aside for a second. I think there is data sharing issues that need to be solved in the industry. So even within an ecosystem, think about a heavy equipment manufacturers, caterpillars, deers of the world. They sell through dealers who probably lease it through some bank and then a farmer buys the equipment. Each of, there's data being produced in that machine that there's parts of that data that only the OEM, the manufacturer needs and is not willing to share with anybody else. Then there's parts of the data that the dealer needs so that they can monitor the machine. Then the farmer needs certain pieces of data and then maybe the guy who's leasing the equipment needs certain amount of data and are you using them within specs? Are you within warranty and so on and so forth. We haven't really figured out how easily to solve. I know what IO tried to do some of that in your company, but those are not just global, but those are issues around how do you share data based on permissions and the right rules and learning about the data. So there are a lot of data sharing issues that I think we need to overcome to get to a really good solution out there. I'll just add, I'm sorry. No, I was just gonna say, I think that's a good example also of what's actually happening behind the scenes in the telco space. A lot of people think that you buy a service from Carrier X and it's their network all over the place, but it's not, they're buying network from this person, who's buying network from that person. It's definitely a very challenging space to work in. Sorry, Tom didn't mean to interrupt. No, no, thank you. You heard three different answers, or at least I heard three different responses to the question. My first response was about the transport and their operability of transport, and then I'm gonna be talking about the interoperability between the carrier services and then Frank and Microsoft, the interoperability of data and the different data laws across the world. So those are pretty big challenges. I think that's an interesting response at how difficult that challenge is. I just have to figure it out, each one of those to be able to create something that is unified. Something Frank said, there's not going to be a ubiquitous standard that cuts across all of this to solve the problem. One of the things I learned with Wadio was that you need to have a solution that can deal with the multi-standards, the multi-laws, all of the things that are occurring and changing. There's nothing that's static, it's always changing. So the systems that are being deployed and in place are the ones that can adapt to those standards and transports and change in laws around the data. I've learned that's to be very important. There's not going to be one standard that solves all problems. Excellent, all right. So I know we're a little bit out of time. It was just one last question. But before that, just a couple of minor observations. I know one of the gentlemen, I think, was you, Tom, you mentioned a 50 billion connected devices figure. I think that came from Erickson as a forecast and they have since changed it. They revised it downwards and then some people started saying, oh, well, well, I thought it was 50 billion by 2020, right? And I think in the end, what they ended up doing is they still stuck with the 50 billion but they just moved the timeline, I think. So that number seems to have stuck in a lot of people's minds. So it's amazing how much mileage they got out of that. So maybe I know we have a panelist for the next session already lined up here. So if you could please just keep your answer short to a couple of minutes each. What are the opportunities that IoT will offer us and are there any final predictions as to where you see where you see us heading in that direction in the next few years? I will just mention a quick thing about IoT opportunities earlier this year I was at Mobile World Congress and I saw Fujitsu, they had like a, almost like a fit band on a cow, as a connective cow, I was like, whoa, what are they doing with this? They're measuring actually how much a cow actually walks around. And I said, how is this useful to the farmers? Apparently, when cows are in heat, they actually walk twice the average amount that they do on a normal day. So that immediately triggers an alarm to the farmer. So the farmer knows, okay, because that's not a productive time for the cow. Those are milk giving cows, they take them off and they say, okay, you do your thing and, you know, and it's interesting how this is actually already being used by farmers in Japan. But let's start maybe with you, Frank, and then go to Movin and then with Tom. Okay, I'll try to keep it short. So I think it's going to provide us with an incredible amount of analytics to drive a lot of operational efficiencies across multiple industries. It's going to stress the way that telecommunications providers or I say network operators function from a billing, provisioning, and customer service perspective. It's gonna create a lot of new entities to be able to manage the way that data is shared back and forth across the different industries. And we're gonna get a lot of cool names for things that are connected like connected cows, it's everything will be connected. Yeah, I'd say that this is the IoT solutions is more like the next wave of productivity revolution. So it's going to touch every industry. Every industry is gonna change at their own pace, but it's going to change. And, you know, over the next few years, we will see many of the business models and many of the players maybe even in the industry change depending on how they adopt and use. So I think we're very bullish on this. You're gonna see a lot of M&A activity. You're gonna see larger companies buying smaller companies that demonstrated success. That's gonna occur and continue to occur over the next few years. We've already said that the large amount of data that's happening. The devices that are coming on the network are both greenfield, those new devices, the connected cows, so to speak. Interestingly, cows are already connected. A lot of the cows are already instrumented. What will happen, though, is that data that's been locked in the operational side of the organization is gonna be pulled into the business side of the organization. I see that as a big change in how we're talking about IoT, moving from just operational awareness into business decisions and analytics on that operational data on the business side of the organization. Fantastic, well, thank you so much. It's been an honor and a pleasure to have such a distinguished group of folks here. And again, I wanted to thank GSA and Jamie for the opportunity. And I hope you got some good mileage out of this session. Thank you. Thank you.